The Stalinist Option - Slavery or Slavery?

[Michael De Panama]

"Lenin" argues that suppression of freedom of speech among the bourgeoisie must be implemented in a communist society. Perhaps I should shed some irony on the situation and mention that Lenin is speaking freely against freedom of speech. No government suppression.

Why does he believe in this? Because he fears the bourgeoisie. This fear is weakness. If one were to fear that the bourgeoisie, the minority of the population, could bring back their dominance in a communist society through freedom of speech, then their argument must be pretty strong. So strong that one would wonder why we even support a communist revolution. Of course, the Stalinist knows that nobody in their right mind would yield all of their personal freedoms to an authority willingly, so this only comes naturally.

Again, this brings us back to the point that communism is a classless society. This is something the Stalinists so eagerly deny. Because, of course, the example of Stalinist Russia clearly had a lower class, a middle class, and an upper class, economically, politically, and socially.

I will not deny that the capitalist is the number one enemy of our movement. This is obvious. The Stalinist is not our enemy. The Stalinist is our disease. It weakens the movement from the inside. We can not fight against the capitalists in a weak and sickly state of being. The Stalinist does much more damage to us than the capitalist. The capitalist, of course, is still our main enemy, but we must either cure our disease or gnaw off our sickly limb, and simply not tolerate the existance of the Stalinist in our cause.

The Stalinist does not have the same goal as the rest of the communists. The communist wants to establish a classless society without an authority instructing the masses, be it through political or economic power. The bourgeoisie and a Stalinist regime are no different. The Stalinist argues that they are in the favor of the proletariat. Is that why Stalin murdered his own proletarian supporters? Is that why Stalin overworked the masses to benefit himself? Is that why Stalin starved his own people? The fight for authoritarianism is not the communist struggle. It would be more closely related to the capitalist struggle to maintain bourgeois authority. The communist goal is to destroy the bourgeoisie, not recreate it.

None of us should tolerate the Stalinist diseasing our movement. None of us should "unite" with them, any more than we should unite with the Nazis to destroy capitalism. Enough is enough.

[Thine Stalin]

Why do you never take into account my dream?!

I am as idealistic as you, just not as mislead and thinking that we'll recieve this wonderful happyland just out of the blue someday!

I think that the bad has to come before the good. Like excercise or vegetables.

[Hattori Hanzo]

we have socialism to decrease class gaps, not stalinism. if stalinism was there to do the job, we would 'devolve' into fascism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

fools.

If russia became free and inependant socialist paradise, guess what would happen?

America would come in and fund any right wing group or organization in russia. Look at cuba and the bay of pigs, they used force to stop a popular revolucion. Look at Vietnam. Until the bourgeois machine US is eliminated as a counterinsurgery force, free communism is nothing short of a dream.

[Michael De Panama]

I totally agree that communism will only come once America collapses. Until then, however, the rest of us must work to educate and unite the proletariat for the future revolution that will come once the bourgeoisie weakens itself. I promise you that we will see America's collapse within our lifetimes.


Quote: from Thine Stalin on 1:04 pm on June 10, 2002
Why do you never take into account my dream?!

I am as idealistic as you, just not as mislead and thinking that we'll recieve this wonderful happyland just out of the blue someday!

I think that the bad has to come before the good. Like excercise or vegetables.


I hope you listen. Because I've explained this to you so many times.

I am in full agreement with your theory that the oppression must come first. I am in full agreement that there must be a necessary evil. I am even in full agreement that Stalinism is inevitable in countries such as Russia, which were just days out of the feudalist age.

However, the necessary evil that shapes the masses is CAPITALISM! This is what we're fighting against. The bourgeoisie has already had plenty of time shaping the proletariat into what they are. A successfull communist system must be operated through the proletarian state of mind. This is why countries such as China, who saw the petty bourgeoisie peasant class as the vanguard, deteriorated into such shitholes.

If you go out of your way to implement a bourgeois-like oppression in a communist society, the ruling class will not just disappear one day. It won't just stop ruling one day. A revolution will occur. A worker's revolution. The same kind of revolution us communists are a part of. Except, this would be a revolution against the communist system as a whole. The communist system would fall right alongside the totalitarian state.
The end result would be a poor capitalist society much like Russia has turned into.

I've already told you this three times or so. I hope you read it this time.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 12:39 am on June 11, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

How about you repond to my posts, you coward?

[American Kid]

Mike, I'll defer to the thread I just started.

Your shit ain't gonna ever happen. No one's is. Except what's happening now. Forever. You'll never get the Americans to get up out of their chairs, instead of use the remote control. We're not going anywhere.

It may seem like a big deal on all your college campuses, but no one cares. They're too busy checking their blue chips.

-Kid

(Edited by American Kid at 5:06 am on July 7, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

The fact that America will not stop sitting in their chairs is the reason America will eventually self-destruct. This nation owns the world, yet can not survive alone. Eventually, it's going to make to many enemies to handle. America is not an ever-lasting reich, no matter how much you'd want it to be. Eventually the people who bring you your oil, the people who sew your clothes, the people who make your cars, the people who pick your fruit, the people who you so arrogantly overpower with a little gun called "capital" will stop putting up with you. They don't need you. You need them. Without them, you will starve. Eventually, you will find out that millions of the people that look out for you actually fit your description of what a "terrorist" is. Eventually, Iraq will get bombed. It's allies, including Saudi Arabia, will shut off their trade with you. China, with it's millions of anti-American groups, will stop sewing Nike sneakers for you. You're walking on very thin ice. With one wrong move, be it very small, you yourself will bring about your own demise.

But, might I ask, why do you feel the need to completely go off topic? Are you in favor of the Stalinists or are youn not? Did you even read what this topic was about?

I want Thine Stalin's response.

[American Kid]

Of course I'm for it. As long as it leads to the insurrection of your momevent.

I did read your post. And you're right............:)

But your wrong about America. If the people complain about the wages they make making Nike shoes, we'll give them a raise. And if they don't like that, they can come here. This reminds me of a Sam Kinison joke about starving people in Africa.

"GO TO WHERE THE FOOD IS!!!!!!!!"

-kid

(Edited by American Kid at 6:41 pm on July 7, 2002)

[Ymir]

American Pig...er Kid....
The children in indonesia making nike shoes can not move here. Most were effectively sold to the factory owners as slaves, so they shouldnt have any hopes for getting a raise to move to the U.S. Starving africans can not "go to where the food is" because the warlords that control the population take all the food from everyone...including the United Nations care-packages they are sent.

Sorry i had to waste time on American Kid's post but it bothered me.

First of all, many people here use the term "Stalinist" on anyone who doesn't conform to their own idealistic morals.

I believe Stalin did not want the Marxist ideals of the actual communism but he had to twist it so that he could have support of the Russian people.
If "Stalinism" is basically the support of the 20th century Soviet leader's ideas, then yes, I support it.

[Michael De Panama]

I understand that Russia, as a pre-industrialized nation just baby steps out of feudalism, was inevitably going to create a class system within what they called "communist", but do you support this as a 21st century industrialized way to go about things?

When I refer to "Stalinism" I am talking about the people who believe in a Stalin-like totalitarian regime. These are the people who consider themselves Stalinist. It's not just a scapegoat label like the cappies use with the word "terrorist".

[Michael De Panama]

Oh yeah, Thine Stalin, I still demand a response. I'm just reminding you, just in case you think I forgot, or in case you only looked at the second page.

[American Kid]

Looks like uncle sam can't win. Either we're butting our heads where we're not welcome (IMPERIALIST CAPPIES) or we aren't where we "should" be: I guess like fending off the warlords, and making sure our packages get to the people who need them, right?

Go rent a flick. Barry Lyndon. Has nothing to do with any of this. But it's really, really good. Kubrick's best, I think. Then rent "Black Hawk Down".

I guess we just can't do enough.............

Oink.

[RGacky3]

Good day michael, you just sayed to me "FUCK YOU" on AIM, and called me worthless, becouse I don't hate stalinists. Now this is what I will do, I will take you to your room, nail you self to your wall. I will run a sharpend metal pole through your knee caps, so that all your wait is on your hands which are nailed to the wall, then I will take your family, tie them up and burn them in front of your eyes, I will then heat up a small pole and use it to blind you, the last thing you will see is your family burning. Then I will pull your finger nails out, and your toenails. I will rape your girlfreind and the last thing you will hear are her screams, then I will kill her. Then I will slice your stomach open with a dagger, push salt and lemon juice into the wound, and leave you there to die slowly.

I was just trying to be nice, trying to be a comrade, now you will have to die.

[Michael De Panama]

I just said "fuck you" on AIM because you told me to rape my girlfriend. That's hardly "being nice". I don't care if you were joking.

[RGacky3]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 1:00 am on July 8, 2002
I just said "fuck you" on AIM because you told me to rape my girlfriend. That's hardly "being nice". I don't care if you were joking.

I sayed that becouse you were being an ass hole to me and my comrades, I was'nt trying to be nice, all before that I was being nice, even when you called me worthless, and said I was just as bad as cappies. But know you've pissed me off, and I have to kill you.

[Michael De Panama]

That's fantastic. Don't talk to me anymore. Okay?

[RGacky3]

I won't, I will talk to you while your dieing, telling you how much I enjoy killing you slowly.

[Edelweiss]

You are pretty sick, RGacky, aren't you? Even if you were joking, SHUT UP, and follow the community rules.

[RGacky3]

Quote: from Malte on 1:12 am on July 8, 2002
You are pretty sick, RGacky, aren't you? Even if you were joking, SHUT UP, and follow the community rules.

right, sorry, I'll won't let my sadistic personality come out, only it pisses me of when people are cocks to me for not hating stalinists. I won't do it again.

[Xvall]

Cool it man..

[Michael De Panama]

That's wonderfull, Gacky.

Just a reminder to Thine Stalin, I'm still waiting for your response.

[American Kid]

Malte, can I have Gacky's second star if you boot his sadistic ass out of here?

Sorry Gacky. Everyone knows I'm a ladder climber.

Dyin' for that second star............who do I have to blow to get a second star? And an icon?

-Kid

[Edelweiss]

Read the FAQ

[American Kid]

HOLY SHIT. HOLY SHIT. HOW THE FUCK DID THAT HAPPEN? WHEN THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN? I LITERALLY CLICK THE BACK BUTTON TO DO ANOTHER THREAD AND THERE'S MY SECOND STAR!

GACKY, ARE YOU STILL HERE? HOLY, SHIT, GACKY?

Thanks...........yeah, I'm not really taking this with an inch of intregrity am I? Okay, I'm shutting my mouth now. Thanks.................:)

-cappie douche Kid



SHIT-this is an edit. Figured it would be stupid to start another...........thing. Fuck, well that's cool I guess. I don't know, I'm really into reinforcement.

(SLAVE!)

Fuck off. I'm a Guielleremo now.

Malte, can you read these things as we type them? You responded at sub-lightspeed.

-G. Kid

(Edited by American Kid at 3:08 am on July 8, 2002)

[Ymir]

RGacky3 don't piss people off.
The executions come after the revolution, my comrade.

[Thine Stalin]

And I always thought the second star came when you had 50 posts.

[Mazdak]

wow, lol. Gacky, you aren't a big fan of De Panama, are you?? join the club.

Hey, i have like 250 posts and that guy has as many stars as me!!!
Malte- I liked that neat thing you did with Thine Stalin's avatar (pseudo communist nazi scum), can you do that with me too?? It looks neat.

[American Kid]

YES!!! we are..............GUERRELLIOS!!!!!!!!


Fuckin' A, dude. I wanna be called a "wiseass cappie".

................or do I................?

-hm..............

[RGacky3]

I probably should'nt have said that about panama, now every one thinks I'm a sick tourturer. Any I over reacted, but Michael is still a sad excuse for a communist, I have never heard a communist call anouther person worthless, becouse that is an anti communist concept, of people being worthless, no that is a NAZI concept.

[RGacky3]

wait.......I'm still on.........yaay. HAHA AK, I'm still on, but you still got your second star.

[American Kid]

GUERRILLIOS!!!!!!!!

LA RAZA!!!!!!!!!!!

-pfc Kid

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 3:56 am on July 8, 2002
And I always thought the second star came when you had 50 posts.

Thine Stalin, I demand a response to my last post that was directed toward you. Stop being such a coward.

Gacky, the only sad excuses for communists are those who want to unite with fascists. You aren't evil or anything, just ignorant in this area. I'm sorry I was so harsh about it, but if you're going to spend all your time trying to unite us with fascists, you'd be of much more worth fighting on the side of the capitalists. Thine Stalin has come out of the Nazi closet, and you deny this. What's more, you call ME a Nazi! Look, man, I don't want to make enemies with you or anything, but if you truly were a communist you would want equality and you would oppose all systems that promote an authoritarian oppressive system. This does not simply include the authority of the bourgeoisie within capitalism. The authority of the Stalinist regime is just as bad, if not worse. All class systems must go. Until you understand this, your role in the communist movement is nothing.

I still don't want you to talk to me. You're a pretty sick little guy.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 7:54 pm on July 7, 2002
I will rape your girlfreind and the last thing you will hear are her screams, then I will kill her. Then I will slice your stomach open with a dagger, push salt and lemon juice into the wound, and leave you there to die slowly.I'm not about to demand that you show as much hatred towards Stalinists as Michael does. But it would be nice if you'd take some of that wrath that you've reserved for Michael's girlfriend and unleash it on a Stalinist.

If you want to get Michael's girlfriend so bad, why don't you do it the old fashioned way: By not being an immature, sadistic asshole?

And by the way, a person's worthlessness is not a "Nazi" concept. (I just love how some people throw that word around so loosely!) Very few people (the crippled and the ill) were killed by Nazis because they just weren't considered of value. Most people who were killed by the Nazis were killed because of hatred. It's a completely different concept.

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

Rgacky,

You are like the person who gets invited to go camping and sits on their ass while the others pitch the tent, cut the wood, build the fire, and do the cooking. I believe the term is dead wieght. You serve no particular use and offer nothing to the situation. Your remarks are idiotic and contribute nothing to the conversation. Why don't you get an education, and quit portraying yourself to be such an idiot?

[RGacky3]

Stormin Normin, dead weight, perhaps that comment I made was dead weight but I did'nt say that to add to the conversation I said it to get back at Panama, other than that I don't think I have ever said anything that is "dead weight".

I will deny you, the Nazi's viewed Russians and gypsys as worthless sub humans, thats why I say calling people worthless is Nazi. I don't have anything against his girlfriend I just said that to get back at him for being a cock to me.

Panama, comrade Thine Stalin is not a Nazi in the sence that you think he is, he's not rasist, and he wants economic equality and social justice just like every other communists, if any of you took the time to actually talk to him before you made conclusions you would know this. I did'nt call you a Nazi I said that the concept of any one being worthless is Nazi. Authoritarian communism is an anti class system, they also want to destroy classes, they want to achieve the same goals only in a different way. I am just trying to unite the communists so that we can compremise and united we stand a better chance against to capitalist, the stalinists have no problem uniting and compremising with the liberals, its stubborn people like you that have a problem. I won't talk to you, thats fine with me, I don't like talking to people who are elitests.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 10:24 pm on July 8, 2002
Authoritarian communism is an anti class system, they also want to destroy classes, they want to achieve the same goals only in a different way.
This is why you are of no worth. Until you understand what "authority" is, you will not know what you're fighting against. The whole concept of "authority" is division of classes.

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes."
- Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

This includes the Stalinist regime and the rest of the serving population. That is also a class system.

Until you break from your ignorance, in your attempt to unite those who want to destroy the bourgeoisie with those who want to recreate it, you are of no worth to the movement. Educate yourself. Then, you will understand. THEN, you will have worth.

I STILL DEMAND A RESPONSE FROM THINE STALIN!!

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 5:17 am on July 8, 2002
I have never heard a communist call anouther person worthless, becouse that is an anti communist concept...

And telling people to rape their girlfriend is communist??? Shit, I don't wanna be part of your sick movement...


Quote: from Mikey on 10:47 pm on July 8, 2002
I STILL DEMAND A RESPONSE FROM THINE STALIN!!

Give it up mate. Surely you've realised by now that Stalinists have a phobia of facts...

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 12:52 pm on July 9, 2002
Give it up mate. Surely you've realised by now that Stalinists have a phobia of facts...
Of course. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to kick and scream about it.

[Hattori Hanzo]

agree with michael on the stalinist issue

[RGacky3]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 12:52 pm on July 9, 2002

Quote: from RGacky3 on 5:17 am on July 8, 2002
I have never heard a communist call anouther person worthless, becouse that is an anti communist concept...

And telling people to rape their girlfriend is communist??? Shit, I don't wanna be part of your sick movement...



No thats not communist at all, I said that comment out of anger and at the spur of the moment, it was wrong, and I apologise. Sick movement? What sick movement.

[Hattori Hanzo]

these threads always move form the topic to raping your girlfriend damn it!

[Nic8]

Can you explain how the hell you can have "authoritarian communism"? Is that not a contradiction?

If this is worht anything, I would much rather capitalism then stalinism and Stalin's evils is comparable with Hitlers evil.

[Mazdak]

Why is everyone still criticizing Gacky?