Bolivarian Government is turning into a dictatorship

[nanovapor]

Dear friends: The other day, i was in a Chavista Forum, and i was critisizing FARC rebels, because FARC rebels are not aunthentic communists, marxists like Karl Marx wrote about. And i was bashed, trashed, and insulted by lots of Chavez's followers. The problem is that for a socialist system to be real socialist and communist. it has to be extremely democratic, libertarian very different from USSR, Cuba, and centralist systems.

What do you all think about the Bolivarian Government? is it heading toward socialism or toward a centralist burocratic system?

nanovapor

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ For starters, why not mention the abolition of wage slavery and the replacement of currency with labour-time vouchers (along with the basic workers' democracy stuff)?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/lenins-error-re-t74487/index.html

[RedAnarchist]

So, because a few Chavistas "bashed, trashed, and insulted" you, you think Venezuela is turning into a dictatorship?

[Dimentio]

Dear friends: The other day, i was in a Chavista Forum, and i was critisizing FARC rebels, because FARC rebels are not aunthentic communists, marxists like Karl Marx wrote about. And i was bashed, trashed, and insulted by lots of Chavez's followers. The problem is that for a socialist system to be real socialist and communist. it has to be extremely democratic, libertarian very different from USSR, Cuba, and centralist systems.

What do you all think about the Bolivarian Government? is it heading toward socialism or toward a centralist burocratic system?

nanovapor

If you've ever been to a Swedish social democrat discussion forum, you should see authoritarianism...

Lesson: Don't judge a government after its grassroot supporters.

[nanovapor]

Thanks a lot, i am not judging the Bolivarian Government as a dictatorship, it is not a dictatorship indeed. However there are lots of the Chavez followers, who have a burocratic mentality, a personalist mentality instead of a marxist view. And i think that one of the main elements of a real democracy is to foment and accept critisism. And you are right, we cant judge a government by its followers

nanovapor



If you've ever been to a Swedish social democrat discussion forum, you should see authoritarianism...

Lesson: Don't judge a government after its grassroot supporters.

[nanovapor]

the problem is that to reach a real democracy, there has to be a transition between Corporate Capitalism and real democracy (ANARCHO-COMMUNISM) and that transitional stage according to what i read would be a: (A workers centralized state)

[nanovapor]

it is very hard to implement a workers-citizens peoples state where we would be architects of our own destiny, egoism, greed and corruption leads lots of socialist governments into oligarchies, for real socialism to work, the working class have to rule, and to get the profits of nationalized industries

[RedAnarchist]

Rather than posting twice, why not edit your first post to include your second?

[Red_or_Dead]

Rather than posting twice, why not edit your first post to include your second?

Increasing postcount?

I agree with nanovapor on how to establish a real workers state, but that has been discussed in many threads here. What does that have to do with a few stalinist/chavezists on the web?

[Red Rebel]

First off, who are you to say who is a real communist and who is a fake communist? And on what basis, the fact that you disagree with them?

Secondly the Bolivarian government at best can reach a welfare state, regulated capitalism, ect.

Thirdly, double posts are good ways to increase your post count.

[Bilan]

First off, who are you to say who is a real communist and who is a fake communist

By judging them on their:

- Politics
- Actions

Both indicate whether someone is a communist in name, or in action.

[RedStarOverChina]

If you were bashing the FARC fighters who are fighting our fight in the front line bearing the full might of brutal Colombian state, then you should have been bashed, trashed, and even insulted.

[RedAnarchist]

Whats "our fight"? You sound like a patriotic American who supports the war in Iraq.

[RedStarOverChina]

That's hardly a valid comparison.
Anyone fighting against global capitalism is fighting my fight.

And yeah, I do support the war against the state apparatus, in Iraq or elsewhere.

[KC]

If you were bashing the FARC fighters who are fighting our fight in the front line bearing the full might of brutal Colombian state, then you should have been bashed, trashed, and even insulted.

Guerrilla tactics are ineffective and even counterproductive when isolated from a mass movement led by the proletariat.

[KurtFF8]

Secondly the Bolivarian government at best can reach a welfare state, regulated capitalism, ect.


Unless of course it helps make conditions for socialism more reachable. It could nationalize more industry and take it out of the hands of the capitalists and into the hands of the working class by means of democratic control of those industries (which is what Chavez actively supports doing)

I don't understand all of these arguments that seem to be dismissing governments like Chavez's because "you can't build socialism from the top down." I certainly agree that by definition that socialism requires full democratic control over the means of production and that just having a government control everything doesn't automatically provide you with socialism.

But that said, we often are annoyed/troubled with the amount of influence that capitalists have over the government (and many of us think that it is almost total at the higher levels of government of course, and lower levels through propaganda) but when someone who shares common goals replaces that influence and control over government we dismiss them? Seems a little counter-intuitive to me

[KC]

Unless of course it helps make conditions for socialism more reachable. It could nationalize more industry and take it out of the hands of the capitalists and into the hands of the working class by means of democratic control of those industries (which is what Chavez actively supports doing)

If Chavez supports it then why hasn't it already been done?


But that said, we often are annoyed/troubled with the amount of influence that capitalists have over the government (and many of us think that it is almost total at the higher levels of government of course, and lower levels through propaganda) but when someone who shares common goals replaces that influence and control over government we dismiss them? Seems a little counter-intuitive to me

It is questionable on whether Chavez has the same goals as Marxists.

[KurtFF8]

If Chavez supports it then why hasn't it already been done?

He still has the capitalists and the potential of another coup to worry about. He doesn't have full control yet




It is questionable on whether Chavez has the same goals as Marxists.


Why's that?

[Red Rebel]

Unless of course it helps make conditions for socialism more reachable. It could nationalize more industry and take it out of the hands of the capitalists and into the hands of the working class by means of democratic control of those industries (which is what Chavez actively supports doing)


It is always possible; however, the capital crisis, American supported Santa Cruz separatists, and Bolivia has never been one of the wealthiest Latin American countries either, with all of these things happening I doubt that Bolivia will make a move to radically change society.

[Guerrilla22]

He still has the capitalists and the potential of another coup to worry about. He doesn't have full control yet

MvR has had a an overwhelming majority in congress since Chavez was first elected.

[BIG BROTHER]

Guerrilla tactics are ineffective and even counterproductive when isolated from a mass movement led by the proletariat.

Not necesarily not always. Remember Cuba?

[KC]

He still has the capitalists and the potential of another coup to worry about. He doesn't have full control yet

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. As another member has said, "MvR has had a an overwhelming majority in congress since Chavez was first elected." Moreover, this has nothing to do with "his control". The question isn't whether or not he is in control; the question is whether or not the consciousness of the Venezuelan proletariat and the peasantry is at such a level to permit the transition to the dictatorship of the proletariat. Judging by the actions of the people, the answer is a resounding yes.


Why's that?

See above.


Not necesarily not always. Remember Cuba?

Um, yes.