Jesus Christ - Sides - Communistic, Or Capitalistic? [Archive]

Xvall

8th June 2002, 02:50

Well, it is often the subject of debate weather jesus was more a right-wing, capitalistic conservative like the Republican party claims he is, (Not once have I seen a republican who hangs out with the poor, deseased, and a prostitute) or if he happens to be more or an anarchist or communistic individual, who opposes capitalism and imperialism? Well, in my personal opinion, I believe it is the latter. There are several biblical refrences that indicate that Jesus was more communistic than he was capitalistic. Although I do not believe he is a communist, here are some reasons he may have leaned more in the general direction of the communistic theory.

Communism believes everyone is equal, Capitalism is largely influenced by money, and diffirent economic classes.
- Generally, in the Bible, Jesus leaned more towards a communal and collective environment, where everyone would share and help each other, rather then going forth and pursuing their own personal goals.

Jesus disliked tax collectors very much because they were money-driven and money-hungry.
- Within the Bible itself, (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-3:13), there are various refrences to Jesus hating tax collectors. "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? "

Jesus disliked the rich, promising only a few of them would be allowed into heaven! (Matthew 19:23-26)
- "And Jesus said to his disciples, Verily I say to you, A rich man will with difficulty enter into the kingdom of heaven."
- "Again I say to you, It is easier for a camel 1 to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

All in all, Jesus, in my second and third point disliked 'capitalistic' people. It is obvious from this, that he didn't like money much either. Hence Jesus was more of an anti-capitalist, and more of a pro-communistic individual.

- Drake Dracoli

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 03:03

How reliable are the history books and the bible?

Xvall

8th June 2002, 03:15

No idea...
This is just to confront some cappies that think that jesus was a capitalistic person.. Or those capitalists who think they're 'heavenly' material..

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 03:18

Then use the stories you see fit to illustrate your point.
Jesus was a commie rebel according to
PEACCENICKED book 4 chap 10 line 85

Xvall

8th June 2002, 03:21

Stories eh? Well, I don't know much about the bible, so I'll look into it...

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 03:26

There is the feeding of the crowd with a few fishes.
Damned miracle, if you believe.

pastradamus

8th June 2002, 03:27

Jesus never Hated the rich,he just disliked sum of them for the way they opressed their fellow man,my source=the holy gosphel.

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 03:31

Passing Through

I saw Jesus on the cross on a hill called Calvary
"Do you hate mankind for what they done to you?"
He said, "Talk of love not hate, things to do - it's getting late.
I've so little time and I'm only passing through."

Passing through, passing through.
Sometimes happy, sometimes blue,
glad that I ran into you.
Tell the people that you saw me passing through.

I saw Adam leave the Garden with an apple in his hand,
I said "Now you're out, what are you going to do?"
"Plant some crops and pray for rain, maybe raise a little cane.
I'm an orphan now, and I'm only passing through."

Passing through, passing through ...

I was with Washington at Valley Ford, shivering in the snow.
I said, "How come the men here suffer like they do?"
"Men will suffer, men will fight, even die for what is right
even though they know they're only passing through"

Passing through, passing through ...

I was with Franklin Roosevelt's side on the night before he died.
He said, "One world must come out of World War Two" (ah, the fool)
"Yankee, Russian, white or tan," he said, "A man is still a man.
We're all on one road, and we're only passing through."

Passing through, passing through ...

(let's do it one more time)

Passing through, passing through ...

deadpool 52

8th June 2002, 03:45

Yes, but the right-wingers use the Bible to prove their ignorant beliefs, if you use the Bible to argue against them, they have no arguement.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and five to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 12:33
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither doth moth corrupt.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Luke 6:30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not to return them.

Acts 20:35
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Ephesians 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

James 2:15,16
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled: notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

et cetera, et cetera

Xvall

8th June 2002, 03:53

All they use the bible for it basically...
"You follow the Bible, and so do we! So Follow us!"

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 04:06

The bible is like a brick wall of right wing idiocy.
They dont care what is in it.

RGacky3

8th June 2002, 04:07

I think jesus was a socialist. I also think TRUE christians are socialist, most organized religions arn't true christrians, they are just stupid idiots that like tradition.

deadpool 52

8th June 2002, 04:14

The Bible says a lot of crazy shit.

"And it came to pass . . . That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. . . . There were giants [nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." (Genesis 6:1-4)

This is obviously mythical. The "sons of God" were angels: "the expression clearly refers to divine beings." (Harper's Bible Dictionary) The word nephilim "could mean 'fallen ones' and allude to stories in related cultures of rebellious giants defeated by the gods in olden times (cf. Isa. 14:12)." (Harper's)

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." (Judges 1:19)
^So much for omnipotence.

"And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, And the vulture . . . And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat." (Leviticus 11:13-19)

"Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife." (I Samuel 18:27)

"But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites . . . And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines." (I Kings 11:1-3)

"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (II Kings 2:23-24)

"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover [lay bare-ASV] their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16-17)
^*****es have got to learn not to fuck with God. ;)

Nateddi

8th June 2002, 04:18

If Jesus was alive, he would vote republican.

RGacky3

8th June 2002, 04:20

Quote: from Nateddi on 4:18 am on June 8, 2002
If Jesus was alive, he would vote republican.

he would'nt vote, he'd try and make a socialist theocracy.

deadpool 52

8th June 2002, 04:20

I suspect God of being a leftist intellectual.

Xvall

8th June 2002, 04:38

MORE FUCKED UP BIBLE QUOTES
"If your right eye causes you sin, pluck it out and throw it away." -mat.5:27

"I say unto you, do not resist one who is evil." -matt.5:39

"Everyone who has looked at a woman lustfully has already comitted adultry." -Matt 5:28
This goes well with the eye thing!

"Thous shanlt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination" -lev 18:22
Homophobic Bastards!

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain: but
could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron" - Jud 1:19
God is weak against Iron?

peaccenicked

8th June 2002, 04:43

As Eggenstein says
"Man is free to acknowledge God or to deny Him and put himself in His place. The latter he has attempted to do again and again in the course of human history. lt is not difficult to know where to look for the source and origin of Atheism. lt is the old Luciferic hatred and desire of the creature to take the place of the creator. One can read about it in Karl Marx's work, where it tells us what marxism and materialism are based on. Marx wrote: "Philosophy makes no secret of it. Prometheus' admission, 'l have, in a word, enough hate for all the gods', is its own admission, its own utterance against all the gods of heaven and earth who do not recognize man's self-awareness, the highest godhead''

deadpool 52

8th June 2002, 05:15

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 9:38 am on June 8, 2002
MORE FUCKED UP BIBLE QUOTES
"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain: but
could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron" - Jud 1:19
God is weak against Iron?

hahaha.
That is the one I said!

What did Jesus say about peace?
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

In the King James version of the bible, "liberal" is a good word. The word "conservative" appears nowhere in the bible.
"The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself." (Proverbs 11:25)
"The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful." (Isaiah 32:5)
"But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand." (Isaiah 32:8)
"Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men . . . Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift." (II Corinthians 9:13-15)

"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (II John 10-11)

"Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss." (I Thessalonians 5:26. See also Romans 16:16; I Corinthians 16:20; II Corinthians 13:12; II Peter 5:14)
^So much for homophobia ;)

"And [John the Baptist] said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? and he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:13-14)

ID2002

8th June 2002, 05:18

humm... I think he was a "socialist", but modern Christianity has made him into a Fascist! This just goes to show how religion can be manipulated by the few.

I will point out that a number of "true" Christianity groups still exist (ie. Quakers, Mennonites and Amish..etc) These are very socialist minded religious communities!

Guest

8th June 2002, 06:41

Well, since Jesus was diametrically opposed to such evils as theft and murder, one could only come to the conclusion that he would have been anticommunist. The backbone of Marxist ideas is supported by the idea that a political faction would murderously overthrow the sitting government, steal the wealth of the nation, exterminate dissidents and oppress peoples freedoms. If you think Jesus would support such things, then I suggest you missed the general idea behind the Christian creed.
True, Jesus supported men helping one another and good samaritanism, but the war in heaven was fought over free agency. Lucifer wanted to make everyone equally pure in order to create the perfect world and guarantee every soul made it into heaven. Sound like a familiar idea? Jesus was of the faction that men should prove their character by being given a choice. For these reasons I would say that Lucifer would have preferred the communist state, where as, Jesus would have supported the notion of free enterprise.

RedCeltic

8th June 2002, 07:37

Bible = Hogwash.

Guest

8th June 2002, 07:49

I am not an advocate of Christianity. However, anyone is free to chose their belief systems. The bible is a wonderful literary work that touches on many of the philosophical questions of the epoch. Bible = good reading.
Most organized religions have committed atrocities in the name of their creed, but this should not undermine the teachings of the doctorine. The reason I don't subscribe to religion rests in the fact that I have not sufficiently investigated any of them.

Anarcho

8th June 2002, 09:49

Most of the christian sects of today have little bearing on the words of Jeshua ben Joseph.

Religion is like a lift in your shoe. If it makes you feel taller and walk better, great. But don't give me your lifts, and for fucks sake don't go around nailing lifts to the bottoms of the natives feet! - George Carlin

Anonymous

8th June 2002, 12:59

Jesus was just a revolted jew, he was fighting against the roman power, all he wanted is a free israel, he died for the cause (some say that he was never crucified) but the point his that the only objectif of jesus is the destruction of the roman army, so the bible is just bulshit! they transformed him into a cult when all he wanted was to spread the jew power!!! they turned him into the first christian when he was just a jew!! Now he could be a socialist see everyone is equal, out with the romans (capitalists) out with the profits in religion,etc but the best way to silence jesus is to make him look like a god, soo he wasnt no more a revolted socialist he was now a god and he was king etc.... so by turning him into a cult he was a thread no more! and now he his god of capitalism!

Hattori Hanzo

8th June 2002, 17:03

he was utopian, but he leaned left

Moskitto

9th June 2002, 18:11

I do not believe anyone said that Jesus was a Marxist. They may have said that Jesus was a communist, however communism and Marxism are not mutually inclusive.

Menshevik

9th June 2002, 21:32

Jesus was a definite anarchist, cause he didn't believe in a kingdom or state ruled by men.

anti machine

13th June 2002, 20:52

I agree w/ drake that Jesus Christ was indeed a communist. In fact, the early church was one of the greatest COMMUNIST societies. oh, and peace, its Valley forge, not valley ford.

Xvall

13th June 2002, 22:48

I don't think he was really a communist.. He was just, communistic..

STALINSOLDIERS

13th June 2002, 22:55

yeah i think god is more communist, capitalist are just pure evil....communist is everything good communism is for the people..

Capitalist Imperial

13th June 2002, 23:19

I can't believe that with everything we know now about science and human evolution that religion has any part in human life. Jesus was just another kook (one in many) claiming to be the "son of god". He was a carpenter, and realized he could do better by scamming with a cult (historical docs won't tell you this, of course) Religion is an old tool used by humanity to establish order and try to defy our mortality and explain our existence. We are merely animals looking for meaning in life, and I believe all religion is misleading and absolutely ludicrous. You are born, you live, and you die.

STALINSOLDIERS

13th June 2002, 23:38

for once your right about something ci, god if fake

Xvall

13th June 2002, 23:51

I dont' believe in any religion either CI. But ifn this 'jesus' existed, he was more communistic.

Capitalist Imperial

13th June 2002, 23:56

Ok, but i think he was also democratic in some cases, believing in one's freedom of choice and liberation from state control.

Fabi

14th June 2002, 00:29

well, if you trust the bible he was basically some sort of anarchist... read some tolstoy on the topic.. he dealt with it...

"Ok, but i think he was also democratic in some cases, believing in one's freedom of choice and liberation from state control. "

yeah... which also fits the anarchist...

Guest

15th June 2002, 14:01

CI,

You would like Mathew Alper's "The God Part of The Brain".

IzmSchism

15th June 2002, 18:29

I am not a raging religious person, I was baptised, went to sunday school until I was eleven then quit. Way too boring for me, I was into smoking butts behind the church rather than having my butt plugged by some homo erotic sex-repressed pedophile.

Anyways...for anyone who says religion is pointless, I will 1/2 agree with that statement....I cannot stand fundamental wack jobs who read their personal scriptures or texts and believe in them as if they were blind to any other possibility. Yes science has proven that the world was not created in 6 days, and Hawking furthered Hubble's Big Bang theory so that is pretty well excepted, but two things still strike me. One is without religion in this world where would we be? And two what in blazes caused the initial atom of hydrogen and carbon?

IzmSchism

15th June 2002, 18:32

Jesus = socialist.......but if you read Max Webers Protestantism and Capitalism you might think that this man was the inertia for the capitalist movement. In a real in direct way.

(Edited by IzmSchism at 6:33 pm on June 15, 2002)

Xvall

15th June 2002, 18:53

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:56 pm on June 13, 2002
Ok, but i think he was also democratic in some cases, believing in one's freedom of choice and liberation from state control.

Ugh, you're still on this level. Of course Jesus was 'democratic'. But most people here are 'democratic' too. I'm considered 'democratic' because I like democray, which is just freedom. You tend to think that Us Commies HATE democracy. That is false.

Vide

15th June 2002, 21:22

What nonsense. Jesus was neither a communist, nor a socialist, nor capitalist or anything else. You people seem to have forgotten that those ideologies did not exist when he did.

Jesus was a collectivist, nothing more.

Moskitto

15th June 2002, 21:28

When will people understand that communism predates Marx?

Vide

16th June 2002, 09:26

When will people understand that communism predates Marx?

You'd be a fool to think that the Communist ideology existed circa 30 a.d.

IzmSchism

16th June 2002, 16:49

Guest

16th June 2002, 19:28

Collectivism implies utilitarianism, what is best for the greatest number of people is always right. Hardly an ideology that Jesus would have subscribed to. If 51% of the population benefited from consumption of the other 49%, does that make cannibalism moral? Similarly, if 99% of the population benefits from stealing the riches of the top 1% is the precept of theft made right? Jesus loved each individual for his unique qualities and would have hardly advocated reducing everyone to the same level of mediocrity.

Fabi

16th June 2002, 20:11

if the richest 1% is building its wealth upon the backs of the other 99%, i.e. stealing to get richer, is that right?

you are talking about 51% to 49%
and 99% to 1% .... comparing those numbers is ridiculous. comparing regaining what belongs to you and eating someone is ludicrous, to say the least...

that does not mean i am defending the collectivism/utilitarianism issue... i just think your example is bogus...

Moskitto

16th June 2002, 20:52

Communist ideas have existed since the time of ancient Greece.

Guest

16th June 2002, 21:30

Fabi,

When you take a job you are aware of the pay rate. Sometimes you negotiate terms and demand benefits before taking the job. Employment is another example of mutual benefit for mutual exchange. How is employment theft? Can you explain that one to me? It seems like workers get the market rate for their employment. If they have additional skills then they may get a higher pay rate. The difference between wage and salary is education and skill level. Most people get paid what the market can afford. If you are not satisfied with your pay I suggest getting an education or learning rare skills. I would say that most employees are subsisting by working for a company. Is the employer or the employee the loach, or are they both benefiting one another.

Moskitto

16th June 2002, 21:32

Employment can be theft if you're being paid £1.25 to do 1 hour 45 minutes work.

marxistdisciple

16th June 2002, 22:03

Firstly my quote, to prove how helpful the bible is;

Lev.22
[24] Any animal which has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut, you shall not offer to the LORD or sacrifice within your land;

Now now, that's not very inclusive

"When you take a job you are aware of the pay rate. Sometimes you negotiate terms and demand benefits before taking the job."
Not always, my first job I was told I was going to be earning around £3 an hour, until I got my pay slip at £2.55

"Employment is another example of mutual benefit for mutual exchange."

Not exactly, there are benefits on both sides, just the benefits are unfairly biased towards the directors and shareholders.

Lots of money=Lots more money

Hey, a stockbroker makes money by effectively selling bits of people's company for more than he bought them. Yeah, THAT makes sense.

"The difference between wage and salary is education and skill level."
That's weird, the Prime Minister John Major reportadly had 3 O'levels.....I have more qualifications than that therefore I should get paid more.....except it doesn't really work like that does it?

Some would argue it requires a great deal of skill to drive a bus. So why is a bus driver paid £4.50 an hour in my town? By capitalist reasoning, they ought to seek more "skills" to get a better paid job. Fair enough, but whose gonna drive the bus then?
The point is, you are slave to the market. To get well paid, you must do a job that has a high slalary level. What if you don't like those jobs? Then you must accept low pay.

marxistdisciple

16th June 2002, 22:04

Guest

16th June 2002, 22:12

England is a Socialist country, is it not?

When you got your pay slip did you quit or take it in the ass? If you still worked there, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

The Prime minister does not work in the same industry/market that you do. He is a politician. Politicians are notorious for granting themselves pay raises.

Stockbroking is in itself a skill. The perceived value of a company is always fluctuating. Stockbrokers are making money by predicting those perturbations

Guest

16th June 2002, 22:18

Driving a bus hardly qualifies as a skilled position.

Vide

17th June 2002, 00:48

Vide,

space and time have existed since presumably the Big Bang, along with such things like the graviational pull and the rotation and expansion of the solar system. When Copernicus wrote his paper that the earth rotated around the sun, no one would buy this ideology until when Galileo backed it up 100 years later.... Does that mean that it did not exist always? even before Copernicus. Just like 1+1=2, wether you know this or not, perhaps Jesus was a communist, socialist, liberal, capitalist....whatever, it does not mean that he could not have fallen into one of these categories.

Your analogy and therefore your corollary are both false. While the universe, time and space are all natural constructs, ideologies are not. People had to invent economic and political systems, they haven't existed since the dawn of time. The attitudes that inspired them, however, collectivism and individualism, did exist.

Collectivism implies utilitarianism, what is best for the greatest number of people is always right. Hardly an ideology that Jesus would have subscribed to. If 51% of the population benefited from consumption of the other 49%, does that make cannibalism moral? Similarly, if 99% of the population benefits from stealing the riches of the top 1% is the precept of theft made right? Jesus loved each individual for his unique qualities and would have hardly advocated reducing everyone to the same level of mediocrity.

Let's examine the bible:

Matthew 14:13-21

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."
Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."
"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.
"Bring them here to me," he said. And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

If Jesus were an individualist, he'd be selling tuna fish sandwiches for $100 a piece. As it stands, however, he is a collectivist, who cared for the well-being of all.