Chavez nationalises Venezuela's cement industry

[spartan]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/78BD5E2C-6A4B-4787-BAF7-7F764A8BF7A0.htm

Good on you mate!

Housing for those who desperately need it should always come before the profits of privatised companies.

[BIG BROTHER]

Yes good move indeed. I just hope that who ever is in charge of the now national cement industry does a good job and doesn't steal all the money for himselft, like they do in Mexico with PEMEX.

[AGITprop]

Excellent.
Now nationalize ALL the commanding heights of the economy.

[Saorsa]

This is certainly a very positive step, but Chavez can't lead a transition from capitalism to socialism by nationalising an industry here and a factory there if and when he feels like it.

His economy, which already has a lot of flaws and contradictions developing as a result of his price controls and state interference within the framework of a capitalist, market-based economy, will either collapse or he the opposition of the capitalist class to his reforms will lead to full scale revolt.

Sooner or later, he's going to have to lead a second wave of revolution that fully expropriates the Venezuelan bourgeoisie (alternatively someone else could lead it, I really don't care either way), or he's going to be overthrown.

The way things are going, Chavez is going to end up being the next Salvador Allende.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Chavez's pursuit of compensating these companies has done wonders to keep his government in power. Foreign governments like the United States would probably already be landing boots in Venezuela's soil had he outright nationalized industries. Hopefully the economy continues to flourish.

[Saorsa]

The economy may be doing well, but Venezuela is still a society of barrios and mansions. Venezuela is not socialist. Poverty, unemployent and needless deprivation continues to exist, despite the improvements made under Chavez. The economy, from it's commanding heights down to it's grass-roots, is still overwhelmingly in the hands of the capitalist class, and no amount of subsidised bread and community councils changes that fact. Ffs, Chavez has done a lot of positive stuff and he enjoys the support of the Venezueland working masses, but he has not seriously disadvantaged most of the Venezuelan capitalist class. It's wealth has actually increased under him!

Hugo Chavez has yet to show that his colours are truly red, and not just a pale shade of pink.

[KC]

Foreign governments like the United States would probably already be landing boots in Venezuela's soil had he outright nationalized industries.

The US will never invade Venezuela.


The economy may be doing well, but Venezuela is still a society of barrios and mansions. Venezuela is not socialist. Poverty, unemployent and needless deprivation continues to exist, despite the improvements made under Chavez.

Do you know where I could find figures on poverty and unemployment over the past few years for Venezuela? Because that would be awesome.

[RHIZOMES]

The US will never invade Venezuela.

Yeah, in the same way the US never invaded Chile.

[BIG BROTHER]

The economy may be doing well, but Venezuela is still a society of barrios and mansions. Venezuela is not socialist. Poverty, unemployent and needless deprivation continues to exist, despite the improvements made under Chavez. The economy, from it's commanding heights down to it's grass-roots, is still overwhelmingly in the hands of the capitalist class, and no amount of subsidised bread and community councils changes that fact. Ffs, Chavez has done a lot of positive stuff and he enjoys the support of the Venezueland working masses, but he has not seriously disadvantaged most of the Venezuelan capitalist class. It's wealth has actually increased under him!

Hugo Chavez has yet to show that his colours are truly red, and not just a pale shade of pink.

I understand how you feel, but having a strong national oposition, a enemy neighbor and the empire watching over you, I think Chavez is just trying to be carefull.

[AGITprop]

Can anyone tell me if these cement companies are being run by workers or were they plain and simply nationalized?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

well now we can have cheap cement

[nanovapor]

I think you are assuming anti-evidence, anti-facts assumptions about Venezuela's economy and capitalism itself. First of all no capitalism works without state-intervention, in fact a good capitalist economy needs state intervention, and even though Venezuela is not socialist, it's doing a lot better economically from a macro and micro economic view than before Chavez governments. So "his moves" like you claim are not crazy moves, unplaned, they are planed and scientifically proved to work. Venezuela has one of the highest economic growth of Latin America and the world, it's minimum wage is one of the highest of the region. And poverty levels have decreased significantly.

nanovapor



This is certainly a very positive step, but Chavez can't lead a transition from capitalism to socialism by nationalising an industry here and a factory there if and when he feels like it.

His economy, which already has a lot of flaws and contradictions developing as a result of his price controls and state interference within the framework of a capitalist, market-based economy, will either collapse or he the opposition of the capitalist class to his reforms will lead to full scale revolt.

Sooner or later, he's going to have to lead a second wave of revolution that fully expropriates the Venezuelan bourgeoisie (alternatively someone else could lead it, I really don't care either way), or he's going to be overthrown.

The way things are going, Chavez is going to end up being the next Salvador Allende.

[Kitskits]

I think that the most disturbing fact about this otherwise good move, is that it is very clear that it doesn't belong to a larger socialist nationalization programme but to a spontaneous decision of social 'programming' clearly stinking dangerous reformism. Nationalizing this and that in a large amount of time doesn't bring socialism, it might bring another right wing coup (hey we are in latin america) but not socialism.

Unless of course Chavez used the 'housing programe' as an excuse for the nationalization but I highly doubt that. We'll see the speed of the nationalizations in the following years.

[Saorsa]

Do you know where I could find figures on poverty and unemployment over the past few years for Venezuela? Because that would be awesome.



Dunno off the top of my head and can't be fucked searching, but I'm going by eyewitness accounts from people I know who've visited Venezuela. And it's fairly obvious that the hills around Caracas are still covered in slums where people continue to live in poverty, and that the city proper of Caracas is still full of mansions and rich skycrapers.

Venezuela, despite a DECADE of Chavez, remains a capitalist country. The economy is controlled by the capitalist class, there are still rich and poor, and all of his moves have been financed by revenue generated by high oil prices. Hugo Chavez has not challenged capitalism in any serious way, he has done nothing but reform it.

And as the referendum results showed, the lethargic pace of the Bolivarian Revolution is causing the Venezuelan masses to become disenchanted and apathetic about him and his government. Two million people who had voted for him in the elections did not turn out to vote in the referendum - what do you think that shows? Are you Trots incapable of seeing Chavez in anything other than rose tinted glasses?



I understand how you feel, but having a strong national oposition, a enemy neighbor and the empire watching over you, I think Chavez is just trying to be carefull.


If socialist leaders take that attitude to the extent that he has, there will never be a succesful proletarian revolution and the empire you speak of will never be defeated. It has to start somewhere - with Chavez it increasing apppears that it's going nowhere.


I think you are assuming anti-evidence, anti-facts assumptions about Venezuela's economy and capitalism itself.

Oh? So you're telling me that Chavez has expropriated the capitalist class and put in place a centrally planned, worker controlled socialist economy? Strange, I musn't have noticed...


First of all no capitalism works without state-intervention,

This is one of the most revolting paragraphs I've ever read on Revleft. I'm fully aware that capitalism requires state-intervention to work, which is exactly my point! Chavez has not brought socialism in after a decade in power, and doesn't appear to be doing that much to do it now! What point are you trying to make?


in fact a good capitalist economy needs state intervention,

There is no such thing as a good capitalist economy.


and even though Venezuela is not socialist, it's doing a lot better economically from a macro and micro economic view than before Chavez governments.

Well I'm very pleased to hear that Chavez is doing an excellent job at managing capitalism. It's very weird that someone on Revleft is defending a world leader on the grounds that he's managing a succesful capitalist economy... I assume you also uphold and defend the leader of Dubai? After all, it's doing "a lot better economically from a macro and micro economic view" under his government that it was previously. As far as I can tell from this post, you're not a socialist at all.


So "his moves" like you claim are not crazy moves, unplaned, they are planed and scientifically proved to work.

I never claimed they were crazy and unplanned, and it shows the weakness of your attempts at argument that you are putting words in my mouth, rather than trying to rebutt the points I actually made. Chavez is not crazy, and I assume he does plan his moves before he makes them.

What I'm pointing out is that he is NOT doing away with capitalism and bringing in socialism, he is reforming capitalism and doesn't show any intention of doing anything else.

And it's great to hear that capitalism is "scientifically proven to work"! I'll be sure to tell that to the next homeless guy I run into. Who needs socialism when capitalism is "scientifically proven to work"?


Venezuela has one of the highest economic growth of Latin America and the world, it's minimum wage is one of the highest of the region. And poverty levels have decreased significantly.

Dubai has even higher economic growth, should we uphold and defend Dubai? :confused:

Venezuela's minimum wage is irrelevant in determining the most important question as to whether or not we should support Chavez and his programme - raising you're minimum wage does not represent a break with capitalism, it represents an increase in worker's wages within the framework of capitalism.

While you appear to be a reformist, the vast majority of people on Revleft are not, and the thing that should concern us the most is whether a programme is socialist, not whether it includes some nice reforms.

You have not provided me with any evidence that Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution represents a break with capitalism - in fact, you have argued precisely the opposite, that Chavez is doing a fine job of running Venezuelan Capitalism Inc!

Therefore, I conclude that Hugo Chavez is a reformist and will fall from power unless he kicks things into high gear in the near future.

*braces himself for a furious onslaught of Trots and reformists, infuriated at this attack on their beloved Hugo*

[KC]

Dunno off the top of my head and can't be fucked searching, but I'm going by eyewitness accounts from people I know who've visited Venezuela. And it's fairly obvious that the hills around Caracas are still covered in slums where people continue to live in poverty, and that the city proper of Caracas is still full of mansions and rich skycrapers.

Venezuela, despite a DECADE of Chavez, remains a capitalist country. The economy is controlled by the capitalist class, there are still rich and poor, and all of his moves have been financed by revenue generated by high oil prices. Hugo Chavez has not challenged capitalism in any serious way, he has done nothing but reform it.

And as the referendum results showed, the lethargic pace of the Bolivarian Revolution is causing the Venezuelan masses to become disenchanted and apathetic about him and his government. Two million people who had voted for him in the elections did not turn out to vote in the referendum - what do you think that shows? Are you Trots incapable of seeing Chavez in anything other than rose tinted glasses?

Why do you criticize me for thinking so highly of him when I completely agree with everything you have said here and have even said the same thing in other threads about him?

I've heard about the poverty and unemployment rates hardly moving since Chavez got into power; I was just wondering where I could find some figures to determine whether or not that was actually true.

[Saorsa]

Why do you criticize me for thinking so highly of him when I completely agree with everything you have said here and have even said the same thing in other threads about him?

I've heard about the poverty and unemployment rates hardly moving since Chavez got into power; I was just wondering where I could find some figures to determine whether or not that was actually true.
I apologise then, I thought you were being sarcastic and implying that I was making shit up. But most of the Trotskyists, from what I can see, appear to follow Chavez fairly blindly.

[KC]

To be fair, though, unemployment has gone down, to the lowest it's ever been (I think it's around 6%).