Stalin was a murdering toturer - personal attack no 2

[peaccenicked]

Why are there still monsters on this bb saying Stalin was great?

[lenin]

stalin wasn't great. lenin was great. stalin was a good leader and was the right man at the right time. he did a lot of good things for the USSR but i don't agree with all of them. i don't agree with the cult of personality for a start. stalinists on this site must defend stalin because the liberals are too hard on him. we wouldn't be so pro-stalin, if you weren't so anti-stalin. i could list the many things stalin did that were great for the USSR and you could list the bad things, IMO, the good FAR out weighs the bad.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Why does no one ever mention krusciev?? Maybe because he is possibly the most failed soviet leader after the US sent him home with his tail between his legs after the cuban missle showdown.

[lenin]

kruschev was the gorbachev of his day. although you have said it with your usual american arrogance, you were right. krushchev made an idiot of himself and the USSR. he said one thing and did the other. he claimed he would bury the USA economy the he put ridiculous economic plans in. he was a good man, but not the greatest leader.

[peaccenicked]

You call me a liberal and you have the most outrageously liberal attitude towards Stalin. Sort out your confusion please.

[lenin]

how do i have a liberal attitude towards stalin?

[Xvall]

Well, on one hand you say he was a great man,
And on the other, you acknowledge he killed people..
And say he wasn't needed at the time..

[lenin]

i said he WAS needed at the time.

when i call someone a liberal, it relates to social or economic issues, not how it relates to someones opinion of stalin.

V.I. Lenin on liberty:

"yes it is true liberty is precious, that is why is must be rationed very carefully"

[vox]

"we wouldn't be so pro-stalin, if you weren't so anti-stalin."

Wonderful. It's nice to see someone admit that his politics are completely reactionary and not at all pro-active.

By the way, does lenin's post remind anyone else of those fuckheads (I believe that's the technical term) who say, "Hitler wasn't so bad, he just went too far, but he did great things for Germany?" It's bullshit, of course, just like the Stalinist slags are spreading.

Stalinists--they even make Yeehaw Bush look reasonable!

vox

[peaccenicked]

Quote your source please. Where did Lenin say this?

[lenin]

In Sidney and Beatrice Webb Soviet Communism (1936) p. 1036

[Capitalist Imperial]

Lenin, I think it was you that showed me some figures on how stalin could not have killed 50 million + because that would only leave 10 million russian males during WWII. That made sense, as I am sure you know more than I about russian population figures. How many do you think he actually killed? though?

[lenin]

i personally think it was under 3,000,000 definatly. i am sure liberals will attack me for saying that. 3,000,000 is a massive number, but it was a revolution, people die in a revolution. the number could even be (and probobly is) lower IMO.
it also depends on how you look at the fugures. most histroians have counted the numbers who died in soviet faminies. but this wasn't really stalins fault, the country was in turmoil and more had died from famines under the tsar. very anti-stalinists even count the number dead in WWII. the deaths in the siege of leningrad, the battle of stalingrad and al other GPW deaths were not the fault of stalin.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from lenin on 12:44 pm on June 7, 2002
i personally think it was under 3,000,000 definatly. i am sure liberals will attack me for saying that. 3,000,000 is a massive number, but it was a revolution, people die in a revolution. the number could even be (and probobly is) lower IMO. If Stalin had killed x-million people in a war because they were soldiers in the opposing army, that would be fine. But he killed x-million people who were civilians and might not have even disagreed with him! (DISCLAIMER: I am not attacking you for your numbers and I am not a liberal.)

Lindsay

[STALINSOLDIERS]

well during WW2 trotsky was needed instead of stalin....

[vox]

Now lenin trots down the same path as the Holocaust deniers. Let's face it, the real reason the filthy Stalinists don't like Kruschev is because he exposed the purges, and in doing so exposed Stalin to be the murdering megalomaniac that some suspected him of being.

vox

(Edited by vox at 3:13 pm on June 7, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Lenin in the Webbs Soviet communism.
Really I thought it was Jefferson but in the form of a question.
Where does Lenin paraphrase this into a statement in his own works.

[man in the red suit]

seriously, stalin was a sick person.

he did more than send people to the gulag.
here is a list of his KGB's torture methods

1) burning tonques with cigarettes
2) making people stand facing walls for 60 hours straight.
3) making people drink their own urine.
4) breaking knee caps
5) cutting off eyelids
6) gouging out eyeballs
7) feeding victims paint thinner

all of these are sick torture methods which was told to me by an actual former Russian soldier.

the tortures were only the sickning half of stalin's wrath.
Stalin also killed millions of innocents and sent many to labour camps. Stalin was a disgusting man.

[Guest]

Man in red suit(nice nirvana pic) and i tend to agree with the stalinists- he was put through desparate times. first the kulaks, and hitler's armies. You cant blame a man for being paranoid when there actaully are enemies all around him. And Stalin did do bad things, but there is much exaggeration about his "crimes."

[Guest]

I didnt mean i agreed with man in red suit, i just liked taht nirvana pic.

[man in the red suit]

ok I understand what you are saying. I agree with you to a certain extent.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Stalinists what is your opinion on the murder of Kirov? Did Stalin kill him and subsequently use his murder as an excuse to begin the purges?? I'm interested to know this.

[Moskitto]

Actually it was me who showed that if Stalin killed 50 million people then there would only be 10 million males left in Russia.

I think Stalin killed 20 million.

[Lefty]

stalin killed more than hitler. end of discussion

[Thine Stalin]

Who cares if stalin killed more, the question is why.

[Moskitto]

It think what's more important is how many people they had the chance to kill.

[Vide]

Stalin probably killed around 50 million, although when you're dealing with figures that high, it's all semantics anyways. That does not, however, detract from the magnitude of his crimes.

By the by Moskitto, 10-20 million of Stalin's victims were a result of his Ukrainian genocide of the 20's and 30's. That includes women and children. In addition, your theory about the number of males left in Russia after a purge is false. Russia reached a population of 100 million by the year 1900. Stalin didn't come into power until 1924 and didn't die until 1953. There is no way that only 10 million males would have been left over after his purges, especially since they spanned 29 years.

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/
http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Ukrainia...amine-Genocide/ (http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Ukrainian/Famine-Genocide/)
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/intro.html
http://www.infoukes.com/ukremb/sp991123e.shtml

[Conghaileach]

from man in the red suit
he did more than send people to the gulag.
here is a list of his KGB's torture methods

1) burning tonques with cigarettes
2) making people stand facing walls for 60 hours straight.
3) making people drink their own urine.
4) breaking knee caps
5) cutting off eyelids
6) gouging out eyeballs
7) feeding victims paint thinnerOddly, the British army used most of these tactics on innocent Irish nationalists in the occupied six counties.

[Moskitto]

The population of Russia was 137 million before the purges. Half that and you get 70 million, 70 million - 40 million (Stalins crimes-Women and Children) = 30 million. 30 million - 20 million WW2 loses = 10 million. 10 million males left in Russia after WW2.

[Moskitto]

Annother thing, things don't rot in Siberia and there still digging up mammoth flesh in Siberia. If 30 million people disappeared into Siberia, they'd be digging up lots of them as well.

[Vide]

And to what do you attribute the thinning of Russia's population of 137 million by half? Did it occur to you that Stalin's purges included women and children as victims, especially in the Ukrainian genocide as I mentioned before? In addition, Russia's population is not the figure to count here. The USSR was composed of dozens of nations, each with populations in the millions.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107914.html

[Mazdak]

Hey did anyone ever think about the massive casualties of WW1 and the Civiil War?? there was an epidemic of influenza that killed a huge amount of Russians during the 20s. Stalin wasnt a monstrous Satanist the way everyone makes him sound. And it is TRue !! Most figures i have seen include the WW2 Casualties just to make him look like the "Dr. evil" character.

[Vide]

Stalin didn't come into power until 1924. Good going.

[Goldfinger]

Stalin has been proved to be a psycopat, and they have no empathy. They don't react negatively on brutally slaughtered bodies, and they think all they do is right. Stalin didn't care about how the people felt, only how they worked. He only called himself a communist to get trust from the people, like Bush calls himself a democrat. Stalin was also a discriminator. He and Bush are pretty much the same, but Bush is just dumb, while Stalin was super-intelligent.
I go for none of them.

[Mazdak]

I know he didnt come to power until 1924.. But Bush saying he is a democrat?? I dunno about anyone else but saying that Stalin wasnt a communist is like saying hitler wasnt Nazi.

[Hattori Hanzo]

he was a authoritarian communist

[Moskitto]

Corvee labour which is what Stalin did, mainly targets men in the same way that Witchhunts mainly target women. It can therefore be assumed that over 90% of the victims of the non-Ukranian purges would be male. The Ukranian purges I allready included females.

Try studying Gendercide before you start talking about Corvee labour.

www.gendercide.org

[Mazdak]

Well, what is the difference, then, between an authoritarian communist and a communist??

[Thine Stalin]

Authoritarian communists don't want the people to make their usual idiotic choices, eg. electing george bush.

[Michael De Panama]

Authoritarian communism wants a class system operated by a government, which is identicle to fascism. Communism strives to abolish all class. Authoritarian communism and actual communism are the complete opposites of each other.

[Mazdak]

Well, people do make stupid choices, (Electing Bush was only one of many)

Here's an interesting point-
Stalin did not live in a huge mansion, rather he lived in an apartment for a large portion of his life and he also lived modestly.

Not exactly the sign of the rich capitalist aristocrat, is it?

[Lefty]

peace, your right. Stalin had no redeeming qualities and i think that if there is a hell, stalin is no doubt burning and getting pineapples shoved up his ass...hourly.

[Guest]

from Mazdak
Well, people do make stupid choices, (Electing Bush was only one of many)Bush wasn't elected, he was appointed to the Presidency by nine unelected officials on the supreme court.

[Mazdak]

Ok, that is true, but still, so many peple voted for him, I would have been shocked if he had even had 15 % of the vote