When is plastic surgery 'appropriate'? -- Split from Reactionary Chatter

[careyprice31]

"Its comments like this which make me wonder how you ever got a wife. ":ohmy:
"Are marriages to inflatable sex dolls even recognised?"


Haha.:laugh:

sorry, Tom, no offence to you, but these comments were kind of funny.

i dont even see the point of breast implants anyway. They hurtm women more than they help.

Ive seen car accident victims and burn victims and people born with cleft lips.

Now there is situation where plastic surgery is totally apporpriate and necessary.

[Bud Struggle]

"Its comments like this which make me wonder how you ever got a wife. ":ohmy:
"Are marriages to inflatable sex dolls even recognised?"


Haha.:laugh:

sorry, Tom, no offence to you, but these comments were kind of funny.

i dont even see the point of breast implants anyway. They hurtm women more than they help.

Ive seen car accident victims and burn victims and people born with cleft lips.

Now there is situation where plastic surgery is totally apporpriate and necessary.

Fye!!! Fye!!! On all you Communists. :cursing:

While no wife or child of mine will ever be disfigured by bulbous blandishments--I have a photography business on the side where I take pictures of young starlets in an "undraped" fashion (for a slight fee, of course,) and I promise them stardom and riches for a few sordid moments of compromise.

I'm a Capitalist so of course I'm misrepresenting my abilities--but I must say that if indeed plastic surgery is indeed science--PLEASE take me off restriction and sign me up as a Human Progress Communist!

The BIGGER the BETTER!

:laugh:

[Sentinel]

I can't understand opposition to breast implants or other cosmetic surgeries, no matter why they are requested. So what if the person isn't disfigured by an accident, or doesn't have a birth defect?

Everyone should have the right to a body they personally feel comfortable in. Hopefully future society will provide that to everyone on demand, without questioning.

Feeling attractive to potential sexual partners gives confidence and a sense of wellbeing to both males and females, so striving to achieve that is not a 'surrender to patriarchy' or anything.

[careyprice31]

I can't understand opposition to breast implants or other cosmetic surgeries, no matter why they are requested. So what if the person isn't disfigured by an accident, or doesn't have a birth defect?

Everyone should have the right to a body they personally feel comfortable in. Hopefully future society will provide that to everyone on demand, without questioning.

Feeling attractive to potential sexual partners gives confidence and a sense of wellbeing to both males and females, so striving to achieve that is not a 'surrender to patriarchy' or anything.

I wouldn't mind as much if it was simply about getting a body you feel comfortable in.

but plastic surgery is about conforming to what the herd thinks women should have and punishing non conformity.

Society says men should look like this and women should look like this.

the plastic surgery industry thrives on making women hate themselves so they're more likely to spend the money.

Its not really about getting a body you feel comfortable in, its as much or more about having the 'right' looks that society thinks is acceptable as it is about feeling comfortable.

as I see it society doesnt care about you feeling comfortable, in fact, the plastic surgery industry thrives on creating low self esteem in people, mostly women. So it also sexist as well.

[Sentinel]

the plastic surgery industry thrives on making women hate themselves so they're more likely to spend the money.

True, but that's the nature of capitalism. It doesn't negate the fact that there really are features which are considered attractive or unattractive, independent of the economic mode of production.


Its not really about getting a body you feel comfortable in, its as much or more about having the 'right' looks that society thinks is acceptable as it is about feeling comfortable.

Yes, but there is a reason for this, and it isn't capitalism, patriarchy, or any other passing feature of human development. We simply are social animals, and will very likely always care a lot about what others think of us -- including how they consider our 'looks' to be.

The ideals may change slightly over the time as well as regionally, but the basic premise always remains -- some features are universally considered attractive, others are not. I find it highly unlikely that we'll ever reach an utopia where people people will only find 'what's within' important, becasue it's just that -- an utopia.

Thus striving for that is futile, and we should go to the other direction instead: providing everyone with a chance to look like what is considered attractive, should they feel this to be important for their well-being. This should of course not be forced upon anyone who doesn't want to, and neither would it in a communist society be possible to encourage it for profiting reasons.

[jake williams]

It happens that I find a lot of cosmetic surgery to make women generally less attractive, and I don't think I'm entirely alone. Also, yes, some of the demands placed on the physical appearance of women (and men) are not part of a healthy, sensible society.

Now, I don't think universal standards of beauty exist, though there are general tendencies, and some measure of "attractive is good" is basically universal. And to the extent possible people do have a right to define themselves, including their appearance. But a very critical point of this whole discussion is that these are medical procedures - they are expensive, not just for profit reasons (ie. the personnel and equipment costs are still there), and potentially even dangerous. So this certainly has to be weighed. It's hard to see a woman wanting bigger tits or a different nose taking precedence over someone needing, well just about any kind of medical procedure, and I think there's always going to be finite supply of competent medical workers and facilities.

[Dejavu]

When is plastic surgery 'appropriate'?

When the following two things are achieved:

1) Someone wants/consents to plastic surgery.
2) The same person has the means necessary to get it done.

Simple. :D

[pusher robot]

Everyone should have the right to a body they personally feel comfortable in. Hopefully future society will provide that to everyone on demand, without questioning.

What about the fact that medical resources are scarce resources? Does my right to have liposuction because I feel bad about being a lazy glutton trump somebody else's right to use those medical resources to, say, treat their traumatic injury? Does it trump the right of cancer sufferers to divert those resources toward cancer research? Does my right to liposuction get greater or smaller the more obese I become? Do I have a perverse incentive to make myself as disgusting as possible to get the highest priority? What if I'm sufficiently disformed that nothing will make me "comfortable" in my own body? Are you saying I have a right to the impossible?

[Sentinel]

What about the fact that medical resources are scarce resources?

What resources are you talking about more specifically? The machinery and tools required, or the competence of the doctors? Or materials for implants?

Anyways, we must ask ourselves why the resources are scarce to begin with, and fix the problem if possible. Of course it's impossible to grant people rights to anything that doesn't exist or actually is scarce in existence. But the answer in 9 cases of 10 is of course: capitalism creates an artificial and unnecessary state of scarcity.

Solution: Apply a more optimal mode of production and distribution and get rid of the antiquate one. Replacing the price system, which relies on scarcity, with a planned mode of production would be an improvement. Replacing it with energy accounting would create an superabundance.

[pusher robot]

What resources are you talking about more specifically? The machinery and tools required, or the competence of the doctors? Or materials for implants?All of the above.


Anyways, we must ask ourselves why the resources are scarce to begin with, and fix the problem if possible.They are scarce because of the physical laws of the universe. Energy expended doing one thing cannot also be expended on another thing. Remember, "scarce" does not mean "rare," it simply means "finitely usable."
Of course it's impossible to grant people rights to anything that doesn't exist or actually is scarce in existence. But the answer in 9 cases of 10 is of course: capitalism creates an artificial and unnecessary state of scarcity. No it doesn't. Capitalism has created the most successful means of dealing with the unalterable fact of scarcity, of providing the biggest bang for the scarce buck.

Solution: Apply a more optimal mode of production and distribution and get rid of the antiquate one. Replacing the price system, which relies on scarcity, with a planned mode of production would be an improvement. Replacing it with energy accounting would create an superabundance.No it won't. That's just argument by wishful thinking. Scarcity is not caused by pricing systems, it's caused by the immutable laws of matter and energy.

[Bud Struggle]

(Me in a less flippant mood:))

The problem of Plastic surgery is a problem of commerce. Women or "sold" a particular body type by the media and by advertisers that are looking to sell product. The selling of the body type is not something "intended": sexy women sell beer but also "sell" the image.

In any even--it should be allowed, almost everything should, but is it a healthy thing pychologically, no. And should uneeded surgery be done for cosmetic reasons (outside of gross deformities,) no.

If my daughters (God forbid) ever wanted to to have something like breast enhancement--I wouldn't pay for it.

[careyprice31]

Society its to blame!:cursing:
(and capitalists too, can't ever forget them;))
So there is a real communist solution to this. Lets communally share boyfriends/girlfriends , husbands/wives. It causes severe sociological damage to a not so attractive person to see attractive people happy together.
For example; suppose a not so attractive girl ( maybe not busty, fat, or whatever) sees an attractive girl ending up with the best looking guys. Well the fault is in the guy for considering the attractive girl attractive in the first place and not considering the unattractive girl attractive. His own perception of whats attractive and not attractive are just social constructs that must be abolished. We will make him conform to what we, the people's democratic bureau, will decide what is acceptable in society.
Lovers must be communally shared so everyone ends up with an attractive mate. It is simply unfair to deprive someone of an attractive mate while others get them.

Good Idea? :blushing:

Haha cute post

your sarcasm made me laugh.

i do think society, especially north american society, says people have to lo a certain way , ex, be thin, rich, gorgeous and so on

it is society i believe that is also partially responsible for anorexia nervosa in people (mostly women)

and a lot of people then judge themselves on what others think of them instead of what they think of themselves

I don't need to tell about why that is bad you already know.

[Sendo]

What about the fact that medical resources are scarce resources? Does my right to have liposuction because I feel bad about being a lazy glutton trump somebody else's right to use those medical resources to, say, treat their traumatic injury? Does it trump the right of cancer sufferers to divert those resources toward cancer research? Does my right to liposuction get greater or smaller the more obese I become? Do I have a perverse incentive to make myself as disgusting as possible to get the highest priority? What if I'm sufficiently disformed that nothing will make me "comfortable" in my own body? Are you saying I have a right to the impossible?

Good point. And I won't qualify that with political labels; it's exactly how I feel. I don't support liposuctioning fatties; make the future universal health plan find some way to penalize for not losing weight.= Give them medical attention when they need it, yes, but we shouldn't pay for liposuctionings with society's resources. Every "penny" used on that could be spent on cancer victims who got sick through no fault of their own (as for unhealthy eating habits or self-exposure to carcinogenic factors--bum technology, nicotine addictions--I don't think either would be as common in socialist society)

[Lector Malibu]

I think in medical emergency's than yes, people should be able to make changes. Thing is though cosmetic plastic surgery I don't support. I'm talking about getting a bigger pair of boobs because you think that it will make you more attractive. I see it as giving into some really blatant sexist expectations of what some deem as attractive as a society. It's not just women either , Most men are under the thought they need a bigger part to be attractive as well. The most amazing expressions of beauty I've seen is someone who just was who they were. The thing is too when you accept your self as you are others notice it as well.

[Le Libérer]

You people must be on crack. I fully condone plastic surgery for anyone who wants it and can afford it. After having my babies, I worked my ass off to work off the stretched skin and lump in my belly. It just wasnt going to come off. I worked to save the money to have a tummy tuck and lypo and it made all the difference in the world in my self perception. I completely loved what I saw when I looked in the mirror again. I was happier, more productive, open to the idea of new friends. All that and I fucking deserved it, after raising incrediable kids.

Plus if someone wants to obsess over plastic surgery to the point they become hideous, like Michael Jackson, then more power to em, at least we can see them coming and avoid them and all their issues at one glance.

[Bud Struggle]

You people must be on crack. I fully condone plastic surgery for anyone who wants it and can afford it. After having my babies, I worked my ass off to work off the stretched skin and lump in my belly. It just wasnt going to come off. I worked to save the money to have a tummy tuck and lypo and it made all the difference in the world in my self perception. I completely loved what I saw when I looked in the mirror again. I was happier, more productive, open to the idea of new friends. All that and I fucking deserved it, after raising incrediable kids.


Pictures please! :thumbup:

[Le Libérer]

Pictures please! :thumbup:See? A womans positive self perception is sexier than anything else on Earth. I rest my case. ;)

[careyprice31]

See? A womans positive self perception is sexier than anything else on Earth. I rest my case. ;)

Im not totally on crack :laugh:

You did that for yourself and not for anyone else, not for society, not for anyone, you did it for yourself. Thats a bit different from what i complained about

Although maybe having a little bit of crack sometime might not be such a bad idea. (kidding!!)

Hee.

btw

Tomk you make me spit my tetley tea out over my keyboard whenever I read one of your posts. I find you quite funny :laugh:

[Lector Malibu]

Oh and fake boobs are scary as fuck !!

[Sentinel]

The way people rush to police over the bodily autonomy of others when it comes to this is, as I see it, no different from what the anti-choicers are doing: imposing restrictions upon others because of their own moral objections -- utterly despicable.


I don't support liposuctioning fatties; make the future universal health plan find some way to penalize for not losing weight.= Give them medical attention when they need it, yes, but we shouldn't pay for liposuctionings with society's resources. Every "penny" used on that could be spent on cancer victims who got sick through no fault of their own (as for unhealthy eating habits or self-exposure to carcinogenic factors--bum technology, nicotine addictions--I don't think either would be as common in socialist society)

I really hope your neo-puritan hellhole version of socialism never sees the light of day. I wonder, are you merely going to punish people who don't live 'heathy enough' lives by taxes, or do you have something even more drastic in mind? :mad:


You did that for yourself and not for anyone else, not for society, not for anyone, you did it for yourself. Thats a bit different from what i complained about

I thought you were saying that only severely disfigured people should get plastic surgery..?


No it won't. That's just argument by wishful thinking. Scarcity is not caused by pricing systems, it's caused by the immutable laws of matter and energy.

I obviously disagree, but we are sliding away from the topic here. Please see the Energy accounting (http://www.revleft.com/vb/energy-accounting-t70366/index.html) thread in the HPG forum, and start a thread with criticisms if you like. Otherwise I'll probably do it myself one of these days, I don't think there is a thread on the subject in OI yet, and all possible criticisms interest me greatly.

I think that we should in this thread focus on discussing possible 'moral' objections to plastic surgery on demand. So, do you think it should be available to healthy people who want it, for a price then?

[careyprice31]

Originally Posted by svetlana
You did that for yourself and not for anyone else, not for society, not for anyone, you did it for yourself. Thats a bit different from what i complained about

"I thought you were saying that only severely disfigured people should get plastic surgery..?"


I did say that. But i also think that people can get it like poor Debra here, whjo had to go around with hopelessly stretched skin from pregnancy. No diet will fix that. once its stretched, its stretched. My mother has it too, but just not bad enough to warrant getting it fixed. I would do it too if it was me.

I do think some people other than severely damaged people need it, for example my my friend had a band put around her esophagus so she cant eat as much because she has a severe weight problem.

most of my issues are with society not plastic surgery just by itself per se.

[pusher robot]

Please see the Energy accounting (http://www.revleft.com/vb/energy-accounting-t70366/index.html) thread in the HPG forum, and start a thread with criticisms if you like. Otherwise I'll probably do it myself one of these days, I don't think there is a thread on the subject in OI yet, and all possible criticisms interest me greatly.
That is impossible. As a restricted member, I unfortunately cannot view any threads in that forum.


I think that we should in this thread focus on discussing possible 'moral' objections to plastic surgery on demand. So, do you think it should be available to healthy people who want it, for a price then?
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. My only moral objection stems from compelling some people to labor to satisfy another person's vanity, without any corresponding benefit to themselves.

[Sentinel]

That is impossible. As a restricted member, I unfortunately cannot view any threads in that forum.

That seems a bit fucked up to me. The groups can individually decide whether or not non-members should be able to view them. I think that should include the restricted -- as a matter of fact I thougth it did. I will bring this up.

[Ultra-Violence]

I dont see the problem with PS but i do find it extreme i mean im not the a great looker but i wouldnt go under the knife. Pretty sad if you think about it you hate your self so you go "FIX" it eh... BOOBIES!

[Sentinel]

Pusher Robot, you should now be able to view the Human Progress Group forum. ;)

I am awaiting for your inevitable conversion to transhumanist communism.

[Bud Struggle]

Pusher Robot, you should now be able to view the Human Progress Group forum. ;)

I am awaiting for your inevitable conversion to transhumanist communism.

Welcome!!!

To Trans-fat Humanist Communism!

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j312/Jojapan/Fat.jpg

[pusher robot]

Pusher Robot, you should now be able to view the Human Progress Group forum. ;)

I am awaiting for your inevitable conversion to transhumanist communism.

That's cool, thank you. I suspect we actually agree on a lot, except maybe the path to transhumanism. I mean, I do believe that capitalism will eventually be outmoded. I just disagree that revolution is the path or that it will be Marxist communism that replaces it.

[Feslin]

I wouldn't mind as much if it was simply about getting a body you feel comfortable in.

but plastic surgery is about conforming to what the herd thinks women should have and punishing non conformity.

Society says men should look like this and women should look like this.

the plastic surgery industry thrives on making women hate themselves so they're more likely to spend the money.

Its not really about getting a body you feel comfortable in, its as much or more about having the 'right' looks that society thinks is acceptable as it is about feeling comfortable.

as I see it society doesnt care about you feeling comfortable, in fact, the plastic surgery industry thrives on creating low self esteem in people, mostly women. So it also sexist as well.

Having a body you feel comfortable in is one of two things.

One: Being what society thinks you should look like.
Two: Not giving a shit about what society thinks you should look like.

There's nothing wrong with plastic surgery regardless of the reasons behind it.