What do you think of Mao? [Archive]

PaulDavidHewson

5th June 2002, 20:06

So overall you would consider Mao:

A. Ruthless murdering son of a ***** with no regard for human life, only wants to see results. Should be destroyed and all those who belive in his legacy.
B. Ruthless genius who could have done better if the circumstances were better in his country.
C. Genius, but in reality was to hard on his people and should have been more Humane
D. Genius, did exactly they right thing.
E. Lunatic, but with some good ideas here and there
F. Utter and complete lunatic, his red book should be recycled into toilet paper.
G. Something else(please comment)

STALINSOLDIERS

5th June 2002, 20:09

C; is what i choose

Capitalist Imperial

5th June 2002, 20:11

A & F

STALINSOLDIERS

5th June 2002, 20:13

ahuh ci what do you think of g.w.bush

PaulDavidHewson

5th June 2002, 20:17

LOL :)

Anyway, SS what in particular do you find so Genius about his plans? Or to make it a little easier, some of his plans.

for instance:
His idea to build communes resulted in an extremely large famine.
And also those communes were supposed to be totally independent, so people were supposed to melt their own iron in iron-ovens. This resulted in people breaking up the railways in order to get iron, wich they could then melt into a tool. The result of having no railway is devastating, the say the least, as you can imagine.

Capitalist Imperial

5th June 2002, 20:24

GW Bush is an underated president who is very good with people. His foreign policy ability was limited, but he is a quick learner and doing very well (much better than clinton did at foreign policy). He stepped up after 9/11, and the people of the US have great confidence in him. He also put $300 cash back in my hands with an across-the-board payback of the us budget surplus.

lenin

5th June 2002, 20:27

E & C. he wasn't a genius but he was a good revolutionary leader. a poor economist and a bad planenr though. using the peasentry (who are essentiall petty bourgeoisie in there attitudes) as the vanguard for the revolution was a big mistake.

PaulDavidHewson

5th June 2002, 21:22

The reason I'm asking this from the Stalinists will be clear when I have more feedback from other Stalinists.

lenin

5th June 2002, 21:26

BTW Mao was NOT a stalinist!!!!

PaulDavidHewson

5th June 2002, 21:40

I know he's not a Stalinist, he's a Maoist.

Michael De Panama

5th June 2002, 22:04

Great revolutionary leader, I agree. But I am not in favor of his political ideology. I never thought that China was even in need of a communist revolution. Hell, it never developed a proletariat. And the peasantry is nothing more than the petty bourgeoisie.

Capitalist Imperial, George W. Bush is certainly not underrated. Since 9/11 the masses have been blindly kissing his ass, while he's killed more Afghan civilians in the process of retaliation than on 9/11. How's that for taking care of business?

StalinSolders, stop talking out of your ass.

Xvall

5th June 2002, 22:22

I say B or E..
I'm sure he THOGHT what he was doing 'for' his people was good, even though it wasn't!

Capitalist Imperial

5th June 2002, 23:24

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 10:04 pm on June 5, 2002

Capitalist Imperial, George W. Bush is certainly not underrated. Since 9/11 the masses have been blindly kissing his ass, while he's killed more Afghan civilians in the process of retaliation than on 9/11. How's that for taking care of business?

StalinSolders, stop talking out of your ass.

BS, Panama!!! We are not blind, we know what is happeneing in our country, unlike the notion that we lack information like many communists propose. You know that is is communist states that don't allow free flow of information, use state controlled media, and make it against the law to spaek against the government!!! So what exactly are you taliking about??? Americans have more access to information than any other country does. We are not following blindly, our eyes are wide open to what happened on 9/11 and we are fully supporting our leader. And stating that the US has killed more afghani innocents than those killed on 9/11 is proposterous!!!

I agree with your comment about SS, though.

Moskitto

5th June 2002, 23:30

Nope, I think you'll find that Sweden has a total freedom of information act, anything can be seen by any member of the public on request. The USA however lacks such a law.

Guest

5th June 2002, 23:44

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial

And stating that the US has killed more afghani innocents than those killed on 9/11 is proposterous!!!

What do you find objectionable, the assertion that we killed more than 3,000 Afghanis or labeling them innocents?

Also, if the U.S. has such freedom of press, speech and information let's conduct a little experiment where you march over to Washington D.C. and demand to see all of the information on the Kennedy assasination.

The U.S. rules through propoganda as much as any previous empire. I dare say we have the best propaganda money can buy. How come items like the LBJ tapes only ever get released only after our ignorant citizenry has no idea who LBJ is? Same thing with all of the recently released information on JE Hoover. They don't mind releasing it now because they've got the kids hooked into their PS2s and Big Tymer videos on MTV2 and have no clue how to get angry anymore. A generation of kids that don't know that East Timor exists can't very well get mad at what we were complicit in doing to it. So Henry Kissinger can get a Peace prize and some big posh office space for what he's done to the world and you think there is no propaganda in the U.S.?

ID2002

5th June 2002, 23:44

Mao...

What do I think of him?
He was a brutal MURDEROUS dictator** I NEVER LIKED HIM!

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 00:09

Quote: from Guest on 11:44 pm on June 5, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial

And stating that the US has killed more afghani innocents than those killed on 9/11 is proposterous!!!

What do you find objectionable, the assertion that we killed more than 3,000 Afghanis or labeling them innocents?

Also, if the U.S. has such freedom of press, speech and information let's conduct a little experiment where you march over to Washington D.C. and demand to see all of the information on the Kennedy assasination.

The U.S. rules through propoganda as much as any previous empire. I dare say we have the best propaganda money can buy. How come items like the LBJ tapes only ever get released only after our ignorant citizenry has no idea who LBJ is? Same thing with all of the recently released information on JE Hoover. They don't mind releasing it now because they've got the kids hooked into their PS2s and Big Tymer videos on MTV2 and have no clue how to get angry anymore. A generation of kids that don't know that East Timor exists can't very well get mad at what we were complicit in doing to it. So Henry Kissinger can get a Peace prize and some big posh office space for what he's done to the world and you think there is no propaganda in the U.S.?

We have not killed 3k afhanis!!! You are actually believing taliban propoganda!! LOL, LOL

And of course national security will dictate that certain specific documents not be released in the interest of national security, but those instances are a drop in the bucket compared to what we have access to. And you should give the youth of the US a little more credit, they are not all the ignorant video game addicts you like to paint them all as with your very broad bruch, many of them are risking their lives in afghanistan right now for you. hmmmm, typical bleeding-heart liberal. "oohhh, we are soooooo bad for bombing innocent afghanis, ooohhh, our people are so ignorant,ooohhh, our government is so secretive." c'mon, give me a break, you have no idea of how good you have it here, but still you find reason to complain!! Incredible!!

Guest

6th June 2002, 00:15

Typical Capitalist rhetoric.

"Hey man all this shit the US does to the rest of the world benefits you man. Why can't you relax and just reap the benefits and enjoy the privelige of living in america like tghe rest of us?"

Nateddi

6th June 2002, 00:16

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:09 am on June 6, 2002

We have not killed 3k afhanis!!! You are actually believing taliban propoganda!! LOL, LOL

Warning, Taliban propaganda (http://www.zmag.org/herold.htm)!

Guest

6th June 2002, 00:17

Man I really dislike being Guest-IP#. Can't edit anything or do much of anything.

Nateddi

6th June 2002, 00:21

We will allow registration soon comrade.

Xvall

6th June 2002, 00:22

CI..
I can bring up pictures of all the little children you've killed, with shards of shrapnel emdedded in their heads again if you like? I got yelled at for it last time.. But I might make exceptions for you...

Guest

6th June 2002, 00:26

The National Security argument is a joy to behold also. Security from whom? You know whom. U.S. citizens who would rightfully be mad.

What external threat is this information hidden from? The only external threat we can really produce anymore is 'Muslim extreemists' and 'the axis of evil'. So tell me, is Saddam doing to start distributing leaflets on the Kennedy assasination? No. Items classified for the purposes of 'National Security' are classified to keep the people from getting mad about what the government has done to them until such a time as they can forget about it or a way can be found to spin it. I mean how mad can we really get at Nixon now that he's dead? If we have anger over the things that William Casey did as CIA director what can we do with that anger now? There is you 'national security'.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 00:31

Oh, wow, another study done by a bunch of liberals at one of the most bleeding heart colleges in the US, and they compare accidental collateral damage to the intentional atrocity on 9/11? The vast majority of collateral damage in afghanistan is due to taliban and al queda hiding behind their own people, so they are ultimately responsible (let alone this is our response to 9/11, we didn't just decide to "go attack afghanistan for the heck of it". Please, the only ones ultimately responsible for deaths in the US on 9/11 or in afghanistan is al queda and the taliban.

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 00:32

BS, Panama!!! We are not blind, we know what is happeneing in our country, unlike the notion that we lack information like many communists propose.

In 1989 the United States military invaded Panama to pluck out our fuckhead of a dictator, Noriega. President Bush's public opinion wasn't that great, so he decided to move into this little Central American nation and stir up some action, which usually causes people like you to cheer. Now, I appreciate that Panama is operating under a real democracy now, but the US, in the process, burned down's neighborhoods, blew up schools, and shot innocent people on the streets. They arrested Noriega for drug trafficking. The funny thing is that Noriega was involved with a lot of drug trade with Bush himself. After taking out Noriega, the country had NO government, and the masses, already pissed off from the unneccessary use of force, rioted. More people were killed. More chaos was stirred up. It was fucking Hell. But if you watch CNN's report, it looks like Panama is in complete utopia. It's rediculous. Bush got support for this from people like you. People like you who choose not to look deeper into what's going on. This is so similar to what is going on in Afghanistan. I don't support the Taliban or the Noriega establishment, but I would never support the slaughter of so much innocent life.

You know that is is communist states that don't allow free flow of information, use state controlled media, and make it against the law to spaek against the government!!!

Shut the fuck up. The one thing that you can't seem to stop doing is assuming my beliefs. I am totally against "state controlled media". I am totally against unfair media. I hate Pravda. I hate any sort of law that restricts the rights to speak against the government. If I were the kind of commie you described, I would be living in one of the typical shitholes available to me right now. Don't tell me what I believe. I hate censorship. I love freedom of speech. Why do you think I'm in the epicenter of this battle with the Stalinists on this board?

We are not following blindly, our eyes are wide open to what happened on 9/11 and we are fully supporting our leader. And stating that the US has killed more afghani innocents than those killed on 9/11 is proposterous!!!

Dismissing the facts as "proposterous" or "taliban propaganda" is why I say that you are blindly following your shepherd. Look at that link Nateddi posted.

PaulDavidHewson

6th June 2002, 00:37

"Now, I appreciate that Panama is operating under a real democracy now, but the US, in the process, burned down's neighborhoods, blew up schools, and shot innocent people on the streets. "

Aren't we getting a little carried away with fiction here.

I know the US army aren't sweethearts, but this is a little over the top.

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 00:39

Oh, wow, another study done by a bunch of liberals at one of the most bleeding heart colleges in the US, and they compare accidental collateral damage to the intentional atrocity on 9/11?

Oh shut up. "Collateral damage" is a disgusting excuse for the loss of life. The US wasn't intentionally killing the civilians, they simply weren't at all concerned.

The vast majority of collateral damage in afghanistan is due to taliban and al queda hiding behind their own people, so they are ultimately responsible

Haha. Now who's the one believing propaganda?

let alone this is our response to 9/11, we didn't just decide to "go attack afghanistan for the heck of it".

No. The US had their motivations. Bush is getting lots and lots of money and support for this. In times of war, it is easiest for a ruler to confidently assume power. Bush is attacking Afghanistan to retaliate, of course, but also to get people's war-time spirits up. If you don't support Bush, you are a terrorist. It's a great fascist-like tactic. Before this, if you didn't support the US you were a communist. Before that, it was the Nazis. Now it's the "terrorists".

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 00:41

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 12:37 am on June 6, 2002

Aren't we getting a little carried away with fiction here.

I know the US army aren't sweethearts, but this is a little over the top.

Look into it more if you don't believe me.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 00:57

I never accused you of being commie, PANAMA, i was speaking in terms of this whole forum, I understand you are closer to the middle.

The taliban and al-queda are responsible for everything that has happened since 9/11, that is far from propoganda. It is a basic, observable chain of events that have occured since we were attacked. How is it propaganda???

Guest

6th June 2002, 01:22

All of the actions commited by U.S. personnel in Panama, El Salvadoe, Nicaragua & Guatamala were complete and utter fabrications. No research has to be done, we can simply listen to them and denounce them without any thought because they do not fit into our convenient world view that the U.S. is entitled to plunder the rest of the world's resources. Everything is going according to plan and we should be happy to be little foot soldiers for the Corporate Oligarchy because they will let us be middle management and we can have the shiniest car and feel all kinds of superiority over the entry level workers that we have to lord over because as sub-humans they lack the humanity that they would need to ever be fully integrated into society and have a shiny car like us.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:26

Quote: from Guest on 1:22 am on June 6, 2002
All of the actions commited by U.S. personnel in Panama, El Salvadoe, Nicaragua & Guatamala were complete and utter fabrications. No research has to be done, we can simply listen to them and denounce them without any thought because they do not fit into our convenient world view that the U.S. is entitled to plunder the rest of the world's resources. Everything is going according to plan and we should be happy to be little foot soldiers for the Corporate Oligarchy because they will let us be middle management and we can have the shiniest car and feel all kinds of superiority over the entry level workers that we have to lord over because as sub-humans they lack the humanity that they would need to ever be fully integrated into society and have a shiny car like us.

Put down the funny cigarette and go have a big mac. If it is so horrible, why do you stilllive here? If you are to young to leave, do you plan to? Be honest.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:31

Quote: from Guest on 1:22 am on June 6, 2002
All of the actions commited by U.S. personnel in Panama, El Salvadoe, Nicaragua & Guatamala were complete and utter fabrications. No research has to be done, we can simply listen to them and denounce them without any thought because they do not fit into our convenient world view that the U.S. is entitled to plunder the rest of the world's resources. Everything is going according to plan and we should be happy to be little foot soldiers for the Corporate Oligarchy because they will let us be middle management and we can have the shiniest car and feel all kinds of superiority over the entry level workers that we have to lord over because as sub-humans they lack the humanity that they would need to ever be fully integrated into society and have a shiny car like us.

LOL, LOL, I had to read it again, the archtypical slam on the American middle class. How original. Essentially anger or jealousy over the US standard of living??????

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:33

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 12:22 am on June 6, 2002
CI..
I can bring up pictures of all the little children you've killed, with shards of shrapnel emdedded in their heads again if you like? I got yelled at for it last time.. But I might make exceptions for you...

I'm sorry it happened. You may want to show those pictures to the Taliban and Al-Queda, as they are ultimately responsible.

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 01:41

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:57 am on June 6, 2002
I never accused you of being commie, PANAMA, i was speaking in terms of this whole forum, I understand you are closer to the middle.

Haha. I guess I can't be a commie if I value free speech, isn't that right? You're straight out of Dr. Strangelove. I AM a commie. I am not the stereotypical pseudo-fascist commie that you and your Cold War era teachers have told you about. I'm a democratic Marxist. I value freedom of speech very much. Much of the board members here do too. The commies that oppose freedom of speech are the Stalinists, mostly, and I think it's obvious what I think about them.

Guest

6th June 2002, 01:44

The answer to that is long and complicated and what follows is my best attempt at brevity:

First, living in the U.S. is not horrible for me on a personal level. I am grateful to have the things I need to have to live.

Secondly, I don't hate Americans, most of my friends and neighbors are very well intentioned, well meaning folks.

Third, I don't accept that the best possible solution for working against the things that I do hate about America is to evacuate. I think there are effective ways to fight capitalism with capitalism, and it's best done from within the eye of the storm.

Lastly, and this was borrowed from someone else's post in this forum but it's very true, there is no place on Earth you can really go to escape the influence of the U.S. On this globe you have a choice of

The U.S. and clones of it

Countries that grudgingly have allowed the hyper-capitalistic Oligarchy in and are headed the way of becomming U.S. clones.

Countries in which the U.S. has been complicit in making the living conditions horrible to turn back the clock on workers rights and produce a laborer's class.

I have no intention of leaving. I have no intention of pretending like it's a great place just because it's beneficial to me. I do not think of my own personal standard of living as being the only important thing in the world. I have no interest in being so self-absorbed, sedated and self-interested that I do not concern myself with the quality of life of other people in other places. It is through their ability to keep the masses self absorbed and divided the the monied interests are able to retain control.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:46

I liked Dr.Strangelove.

Ahhh, the good old days! It has always been my dream to ride a nuke rodeo-style right into the Kremlin!!!!

Xvall

6th June 2002, 01:51

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:33 am on June 6, 2002

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 12:22 am on June 6, 2002
CI..
I can bring up pictures of all the little children you've killed, with shards of shrapnel emdedded in their heads again if you like? I got yelled at for it last time.. But I might make exceptions for you...

I'm sorry it happened. You may want to show those pictures to the Taliban and Al-Queda, as they are ultimately responsible.

Well CI,
Let's put it this way..
If someone in the city you lived in shot one of my family members, so in return I blindly shoot bullets into his neighborhood, killing 300 people, including you and your family. The 300 people that died, died because it was HIS fault, not mine?

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 01:53

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:53

OK, guest, most of that i can understand, but there are plenty of alternatives that are very unlike the US and its so-called "clones", but you have expressed that you don't want to leave anyway. I think you wuill find that the US is the most humane and alturistic country on earth, we give out the most aid by far, in terms of debt relief, and direct aid. Most of the people in the US who have it bad can usually look at themselves, not the US government. As an american citizen, you must agree. You should also agree that, while no system is perfect, the US is the best thing happening right now, and with the right progress and reforms where they are needed, we will become even greater!!! Most of these "clone, subservient" nations that anti-american commentary addresses have a much better standard of living than they did before US intervention.

Xvall

6th June 2002, 01:54

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:46 am on June 6, 2002
I liked Dr.Strangelove.

Ahhh, the good old days! It has always been my dream to ride a nuke rodeo-style right into the Kremlin!!!!

Good idea! We can have another Hiroshima. Well, after you finish un-contaminating all the radiation out of the Shima Hospital, which was the hypocenter of the bomb, you can ride your little nuke into the Kremlin, killing yourself, along with millions of other innocent people!

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 01:57

It was a cold war joke, drake.

Guest

6th June 2002, 11:03

I would take argument with the assertion that any Afghani citizen is innocent. They were ruled by fear and for the most part did nothing to oust the theocracy that took their rights away.
However, children are children and are always innocent. It is unfortunate when they get caught up in conflicts. Anyone can be confident that American soldiers do not purposely slaughter children. Be aware that the cowardly Taliban used them as human shields to deter our forces from firing upon them. If any children in Afganistan died as a result of our war on terror blaim it on their parents who watched or supported the Taliban dictatorship. Do not blaim the U.S. who is right in defending itself from ruthless attacks on civilians. There is a difference between collateral damage and directly targeting civilians. What do you propose that we sit back and allow our nation to be destroyed by fanatics, muslim or communist? There is a link between the Taliban style of rule and that of communist nation. It is the existance of a type cowardice which allows people to sit back and watch when extreme evil takes control.

Michael De Panama

6th June 2002, 18:36

I would take argument with the assertion that any Afghani citizen is innocent. They were ruled by fear and for the most part did nothing to oust the theocracy that took their rights away.

You're sick. They had no control over their government. Not eveyone is as noble as you'd want them to be. The US were the ones who helped bring the Taliban into power. So the people allowed them to get into power? Well then I guess we shouldn't care about the millions killed by Hitler or Stalin, because their people ALLOWED them to get into power.

The fact is that these people were civilians. They played to part in anything related to 9/11. Hell, the Taliban weren't even the ones who bombed us, it was Al-Qaeda. Our attacks on the Taliban would be like someone else attacking the American government for a bomb launched by Microsoft. But anyway, the people were not responsible for their government, and are even less responsible for their fellow people. Sure, they might have stolen a candy bar from a store once in their life, and not as INNOCENT as their sweet little faces might look, but that is not what we're talking about. They were innocent to what we were attacking them for.

There is a difference between collateral damage and directly targeting civilians.

Yes. There is. And there is also a difference between directly targetting civilians and carelessness.

There is a link between the Taliban style of rule and that of communist nation. It is the existance of a type cowardice which allows people to sit back and watch when extreme evil takes control.

Haha. I love these Cold War nuts. Extreme evil? How is the desire for equality evil? You may not agree that it will work, but how are my intentions to end social class and bring direct democacy evil? There is definately a link between the Taliban and Stalinist Russia, but there is no link between the Taliban and REAL communism.

Capitalist Imperial

6th June 2002, 18:48

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 1:51 am on June 6, 2002
[quote]
Well CI,
Let's put it this way..
If someone in the city you lived in shot one of my family members, so in return I blindly shoot bullets into his neighborhood, killing 300 people, including you and your family. The 300 people that died, died because it was HIS fault, not mine?

Bad analogy, we did not go into afghanistan shooting blindly. The taliban and al queda were hiding near and among innocents on purpose, knowing we would try not to kill innocents, and they knew they were putting their own people in danger. We tried as hard as we could to avoid collatreraldamage, but as usual the taliban and al-queda were interested more in their own protection than protecting the innocent. They are responsible, drake, and it is not the US's fault that they hide behind their own people when they know they will draw fire. What is the alternative, drake, just let them go so they can attack us again???

STALINSOLDIERS

6th June 2002, 22:41

micheal de panama clean up in aile 4....theres capitalist trash talk all over the dam place.

Guest

7th June 2002, 02:46

well, (first i still cant register here)

second, Mao (the topic initially discussed) made an honest effort to modernize and make his country "communist" in my opinion.

How can anyone say good things about what the US has been doing. We are using the excuse of terrorism to do what we want (just like we used the excuse that we were stopping communism in the Cold War). We have already gone into the philipines and it is a fact that the FBI and CIA can monitor what people do online, reading e-mails, and siezing computers.
the US was born out of theivery and continues to exist this way. I heard someone say it is not imperialist. Ok. Then what exactly is Puerto Rico? And what were the Philipines until 1945? First we stole from the indians, then the spanish, and then the Mexicans. We have intervened in south america more times than one can count.

BUT PEOPLE STILL WAVE THE FLAG!!!!!
The only people who can actually be consiedered "american" are the indians that lived here before we stole from them right left and center. I know that was hundreds of years ago, but why should that matter? We still are upset by the Holocaust and Armenian Genocide.

And, all of us are leftists? SO why the hell are the Stalinists and the trotskyists and the anarchists so desparatly fighting each other??

PaulDavidHewson

7th June 2002, 21:20

ok, now that we've gone off topic so much I will explain in a very brief statement why I asked the question this thread started with.

I was asking the Stalinist what they thought of Mao because Mao is overall considered a ruthless effient murderer who did what he had to do, from his own point of view, to secure state security and all that.

Stalin can be viewed in much the same perspective.

So how is it that some Stalinists dispise the things that Mao did and not be able to look at Stalin and feel the same loathing?

Mao might be worse than Stalin, but in the end it's still the Ogre's choice.

Why do you Stalinists hate many things Mao did to People and in the same time defend Stalin for his massacres?