marx's social views

[lenin]

you libertarian hippies are always telling me that communism isn't just an economic theory. that it is a social theory aswell. well, the father of modern communism is karl marx. he and frederick engels both wrote the communist manifest so therefore, there social views represent the social views of communism, right? ok then, lets have a look shall we. firstly, marx was a raving anti-semite. his family was of jewish ethniticity but he was baptised a protastant and was later a devout atheist. he wrote tow anti-semitic book, 'the jewish question' and 'a world without jews'. also, if you read the way he refers to jews in several of his works, it isn't exactly flattering!!!! when he refers to a writer who is jewish, he doesn't call them by there name, he calls them 'jew'. 'the english jew', ' the french jew' etc. also, he was quite racist. he refers to LaSalle as a 'jewish nigger' because of his black ancestory. he refers to his actions as 'nigger like'!!!! marx and engels both spoke badly about orientals aswell. engels also called for the destruction of the slavic race!!!! marx and engels were both racists because they took certain race's and made them enemies of communism. so then, do you still want to take communsim as a social theory and have the views of marx (who was also quite authoritarian) and engels (who was DOWNRIGHT authoritarian) as the social views of your society? or do you now agree that communism is purely an economic theory and can have conflicting social views?

[thebigcom]

I dont know what to say. that info is astonishing. either you are a boldfaced liar, or you are more knowledgable then the rest of us. i hope its the latter, i wouldnt want you to slander marx uneccesarily

[lenin]

i'll try to get references to all that i've said above. a lot came from a book called 'karl marx:racist?' by nathanial wayl. the two anti-semitic books are the real deal as i have read them. the bit about engels calling slavs babarians and calling for there destruction is 100%. he was more racist than marx. as i said, i'll try to get more information to confirm what i said.

[El Che]

I would like you to quote Marx or Engles, I mean a direct qoute, their words, when they said it, in what date and in what book/ocasion. If you want to drag these men`s names through the mud at least do it right, at least add some kind of credibility to your atacks. Because if you think I`m going to believe anything you say, regarding facts, without proof your even crazier then I thought.

And about "social theories" and "economic theories"... I dont know what your talking about, I dont think you even know what "communism" is about, but I do suspect you need to catch up on your reading.

Regardless please try and make some sense when making points and please post proof when posting lies.

(Edited by El Che at 10:01 pm on June 3, 2002)


(Edited by El Che at 10:03 pm on June 3, 2002)

[Edelweiss]

Oh shut up lenin! You fucking lyer!

Read On The Jewish Question
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/) by Marx and you'll soon realize that he's not an anti-semite like you!

[lenin]

in a letter from marx to engels 7/30/1862 marx refers to ferdinand lasalle as a 'jewish nigger' and a 'crafty jew'. i am trying to find the exact text of the letter.

[lenin]

"It is now absolutely clear to me that, as both the shape of his head and his hair texture shows -- he descends from the Negroes who joined Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or grandmother on the paternal side hybridized with a Nigger). Now this combination of Germanness and Jewishness with a primary Negro substance necessarily creates a strange product. The pushiness of this fellow is also Niggerish."

DIRECT quote from letter from Karl Marx to Fredericj Engels dated july 30th 1862. in this letter he is reffering to Ferdinand LaSalle. a prominent socialist but enemy of Marx.

[lenin]

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly cult of the Jews? Haggling. What is his worldly god? Money! ... What is contained abstractly in the Jewish religion -- contempt for theory, for art, for history, for man as an end in himself... "

DIRECT quote from karl marx taken from 'the jewish question' 1843.

[lenin]

"Take Amsterdam, for instance, a city harboring many of the worst descendants of the Jews whom Ferdinand and Isabella drove out of Spain and who, after lingering a while in Portugal, were driven out of there too and eventually found a place of retreat in Holland ..., Here and there and everywhere that a little capital courts investment, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to make a little suggestion or place a little bit of loan. The smartest highwayman in the Abruzzi is not better posted about the locale of the hard cash in a traveller's valise or pocket than these little Jews about any loose capital in the hands of a trader...

"Thus we find every tyrant backed by a Jew, as is every Pope by a Jesuit. In truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless, and the practicability of war out of the question, if there were not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets ... The fact that 1,855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish money-changers out of the temple, and that the money changers of our age, enlisted on the side of tyranny, again happen to be Jews is perhaps no more than a historic coincidence."

both DIRECT quotes from Karl Marx in a letter to 'The Tribune' published on page 4 January 1856.

shall i keep going?

[lenin]

also, in nathanials weyl's book 'karl marx: racist', he directly quotes marx on suck issues as slavery. marx thought it was 'essential to industry'. of course, this can be taken in a socialistc sense meaning that the progression of industry means the progression of capitalism then the progression of oppression and finally revolution.
in the book, marx is also quoted as speaking of a greater german empire over the 'lumpengesindle' (the rabble) in the east. quite imperialistc perhaps?
anyway, i'll leave it for now. the quotes are there, marx said it, you can't deny it. i'll juist await the responces.

[Edelweiss]

We are living in the 21st century. Those quotes can only be interpreted if you take into account the social conditions of the 19th century. All those quotes by Marx are totally obselete in todays world and no more important for any socialist.

[lenin]

lol, thought you might come up with something like that! but back to my original point. how can you associate anti-racism with communism if the father of the movement was racist? i'm not saying racism should be associated with communism, what i am saying is communsim is purely economic and to some extent political. but NOT social. on social issues, it is up to the people. you can be a racist (not that i am) and still be a communist because it is about economics and economic equality. marx turned racist after several (what he saw as 'weak') races of people failed in the revolutionary exploits. if marxes social views have no context today, how can his economic views? you are leaving yourself open to blatant slander by capitalists if you say marxes social views can be disregarded. what i want to now, is how you people can decide the social views of all leftists? what gives you the right to tell all leftists what to think? who the fuck are YOU, to tell karl marx that his views aren't communist???? the arrogance is unbelievable!!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

Marx was against all religion, with no prejudice towards Judaism in particular. Marx was an ethnic jew himself! He was against ALL organized religion. Personally, I am not against all organized religion. I also don't view Marx as a god. His personal social beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with the social beliefs that come with communism or Marxism.

[lenin]

"His personal social beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with the social beliefs that come with communism or Marxism."

do you have any idea how fucking stupid that sounds???? Karl Marx's personal beliefs on social issues have nothing to do with the social issues that come with Marxism???? err....it was his movement!!!! he founded it!!!!! his views....should be the views of marxism!!!!

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from lenin on 10:52 pm on June 3, 2002
lol, thought you might come up with something like that! but back to my original point. how can you associate anti-racism with communism if the father of the movement was racist? i'm not saying racism should be associated with communism, what i am saying is communsim is purely economic and to some extent political. but NOT social. on social issues, it is up to the people. you can be a racist (not that i am) and still be a communist because it is about economics and economic equality. marx turned racist after several (what he saw as 'weak') races of people failed in the revolutionary exploits. if marxes social views have no context today, how can his economic views? you are leaving yourself open to blatant slander by capitalists if you say marxes social views can be disregarded. what i want to now, is how you people can decide the social views of all leftists? what gives you the right to tell all leftists what to think? who the fuck are YOU, to tell karl marx that his views aren't communist???? the arrogance is unbelievable!!!!!


Hey, I didn't say that his social views have no context today. But most things he said about Jews have not. So calm down, what I just said is leftist consensus.

[Edelweiss]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/11.jpg

Meeting of the German Communist Party (KPD) in 1932.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from lenin on 11:08 pm on June 3, 2002
"His personal social beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with the social beliefs that come with communism or Marxism."

do you have any idea how fucking stupid that sounds???? Karl Marx's personal beliefs on social issues have nothing to do with the social issues that come with Marxism???? err....it was his movement!!!! he founded it!!!!! his views....should be the views of marxism!!!!


Fool. Did his favorite food have anything to do with Marxism? Did the music he liked to listen to have anything to do with Marxism? Did his tastes in women have anything to do with Marxism? Did his beard have anything to do with Marxism? All of this had to do with Marx personally, not Marxist theory.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Good source lenin, you put a smile on my face!!!!! Economic equality is socialism, I'm not racist at all, there are a lot of different kinds of races playing on my football team mostly black though. Most of them are my freinds but I do agree (as marx states) commuism is all about the working class. But I don't agree with his racist beleifs! Put your opinions aside people like I have and look at the real meaning of communism!!!

[El Che]

lenin,

Those qoutes are simply out of context I see nothing there that is "racist" as we understand the term today. Its also importante to realise that Marx, no matter how inteligent he was, was still living in the 19th century and as such was obviously influenced by the dominante ideas and mentality of the era. I mean who the hell knows what conotation "niggerish" had in the 19th century?

The problem is lenin, that your not interested in the truth, thats the problem here. Thats why your searching everything Marx ever wrote, desperatly looking for something that can be considered racist. You have an agenda, an agenda to justify racism. You want to make it look ok to be a fucking racist and aint semite and you want to lump Karl Marx on your wagon to give legitimacy to your intolerable bullshit.

Your qoutes are out of context both in what concerns the texts them selves and in what concerns the time frame. Furthermore nothing in them indicates that Marx is racist.

And I`m a tell you something else, it doesn`t matter what the father of modern socialism said or was racism is wrong. Moreso socialism its self has nothing to do with racism or race issues at all. Only you lenin, only you or maybe yuri, to make me have to tell u this. Socialism is concerned with the emancipation of the working class period, whatever Marx said privatly has nothing to do with the issues aboarded in his socialist works. Proof of this, is the fact that in what concerns his work on history and philosophy and also his political position for praxis in his time, nowhere are racist issues developed extensivly and consistently. In fact their not even fucking metioned because they are not an issue. Socialism is something else altogether.

So save me your pathetic qoutes about Marx calling someone niggerish and having a prejudice against Jews in the 19th century.


(Edited by El Che at 11:29 pm on June 3, 2002)

[lenin]

"ool. Did his favorite food have anything to do with Marxism? Did the music he liked to listen to have anything to do with Marxism? Did his tastes in women have anything to do with Marxism? Did his beard have anything to do with Marxism? All of this had to do with Marx personally, not Marxist theory."

so do you now agree with me that marxism is an economic theory not a social one? marxism is the theory of Karl Marx. it is the economic theory of Karl Marx, if we took the social theory of Karl Marx, we, as marxists, would be racist. but because you can adpot so many social views to an economic theory, it doesn't matter what your social views are. you CAN be a marxist and be racist just as you CAN be marixst and devoutly anti-racist. i'm not trying to tell you marxism=racism. but your trying to tell me marxism=anti racism. it doesn't, it mean ECONOMIC equality.
el che, thats a stupid fucking responce. out of context? would you like to explain to me what context they were in? exctly how much more proof do you want that marx was a racist? i can keep going with the quotes if you like? i suggest your best bet is to read nathanial weyls's book 'karl marx: racist' arlington house 1979. its very good.

[El Che]

Its not racist lenin, you just want it to be. Too bad.

[lenin]

explain how it is not racist? especially calling someone a jewish nigger. i look forward to this responce.

[Michael De Panama]

No, I don't agree with you that Marxism is an economic theory. My point was that Marxism and Karl Marx himself are two different things. Marx's personal life and his structured political ideology are totally different. Marx recognized that economic power is essentially a social power. Therefore, economic equality MUST go hand in hand with social and political equality. It can exist no other way, regardless of whether or not you believe in it.

Marx wasn't racist. He was anti-religion in general. Marx had nothing against the ethnic jew, since HE WAS AN ETHNIC JEW HIMSELF! He just hated all organized religion. Towards the end of his life he became more enlightened and tolerant of the Jewish religion and found respect for it, although he still disagreed with organized religion.

I'm Agnostic. I accept every religion. I don't agree that organized religion is necessarily bad. I don't agree with anybody who tells me how I should think, be them Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or Athiest. I don't think religion is the opiate of the masses. I think that certain people within certain religions try to stop a working mind, and this is the opiate of the masses. But athiests are just as guilty. Any blind following of any organization is dangerous. This also applies to your blind following of Marx's irrelevant opinions.

[lenin]

marx wasn't racist???? for fuck sake de panama, you can't deny it anymore!!!! the proof is there in balck and white!!!!
marx and marxism are different???? you are soundinf stupider by the day!!!! so karl marx's beliefs aren't marxism??? who's beliefs are they then???? are adolf hitlers beleifs not the belifs of natinal socialsm??? if we were to take hitlers economci promises, they economy would be in the hands of the people, so economic power would be social power, right? so, in hitlers economy, you would have economic equality, but you would also have social equality???? i can just see jews having plenty of social equality in nazi germany!!!!
economic equality is not the same as social equailty. i disagree with that. what you do in your day economically (your job) has little to do with your social life does it.
weather marx would of oppresed jews or blacks in his society, i don't know. maybe he wouldn't, but he stil wouldn't of liked them!!!! and would of resorted to racist attacks if his authority was threatened!!! like he did with LaSalle!!!! marx wasn't a aracist like todays fascists. he just felt that certain races or countries fucked up there chances for revolution and couldn't get things sorted.

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin i think Michael is trying to say that you can be a Marxist yet no believe in every social or economic principles Karl Marx put forward. That is why his racist side which you have pointed out is not supported by marxist here who tend to follow the equality, democratic side of him. You can be a Marxist, at the same time following his economic, social and political views, without adhering to his 19th century racial comments. That is merely one aspect of it and one he did not intend people to follow. Unlike his economic theories which he put forward in Capital and the Communist Manifesto.

[lenin]

CF, yes that is exactly true, but thats what i've been saying since the beginning!!!! you can follow marx's economic views and still hate gays!!!! its been people like de panama who have been telling me i couldn't. de panama not following marx's social views doesn't make him less of a communist becuase, again, COMMUNISM IS AN ECONOMIC THEORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe in his economic theories, you are a communist!!!!

[Capitalist Fighter]

yeah i agree with you lenin except the bit saying communism is an economic theory. Marx envisaged the political system communism, dictatorship of the proletarian, the world to be run by an all powerful state until small communes emerge and take power. That has nothing to do with the economy or fiscal matters. That is the political side of communism. As is everybody equal, no private property, power to the working class, etc which are his social views. Communism includes all these. Not merely one aspect of them.

[Michael De Panama]

Since you didn't read a damn thing I said, I'll totally repeat myself:

No, I don't agree with you that Marxism is an economic theory. My point was that Marxism and Karl Marx himself are two different things. Marx's personal life and his structured political ideology are totally different. Marx recognized that economic power is essentially a social power. Therefore, economic equality MUST go hand in hand with social and political equality. It can exist no other way, regardless of whether or not you believe in it.

Marx wasn't racist. He was anti-religion in general. Marx had nothing against the ethnic jew, since HE WAS AN ETHNIC JEW HIMSELF! He just hated all organized religion. Towards the end of his life he became more enlightened and tolerant of the Jewish religion and found respect for it, although he still disagreed with organized religion.

I'm Agnostic. I accept every religion. I don't agree that organized religion is necessarily bad. I don't agree with anybody who tells me how I should think, be them Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or Athiest. I don't think religion is the opiate of the masses. I think that certain people within certain religions try to stop a working mind, and this is the opiate of the masses. But athiests are just as guilty. Any blind following of any organization is dangerous. This also applies to your blind following of Marx's irrelevant opinions.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 5:50 pm on June 4, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

If you still don't understand, let me explain:

Marx was not racist because he did not have anything against the Jews as a race. Marx himself was an ethnic Jew. He did not hate someone based on the situation they were born into. However, he was opposed to all organized religion, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, you name it. And I agree that a communist system should not endorse religion, so as to keep religious ideology and political structure seperate. The only reason you see Marx as racist is because you yourself are racist. Marx never hated ethnic Jews, or he would have hated himself.

marx and marxism are different???? you are soundinf stupider by the day!!!! so karl marx's beliefs aren't marxism??? who's beliefs are they then???? are adolf hitlers beleifs not the belifs of natinal socialsm???

Adolf Hitler's favorite ice cream flavor has nothing to do with National Socialism. Hitler and the Nazis are different. One is a man, the other is a political belief. Adam Smith, the man, is not the same as capitalism, the system. Adam Smith's opinions on farm animals has nothing to do with capitalism. Karl Marx's beliefs ARE Marxism, but not ALL of Marx's beliefs are Marxism.

economic equality is not the same as social equailty. i disagree with that. what you do in your day economically (your job) has little to do with your social life does it.

Oh? Then what determines your place in society? Is the lower class not the poor? Is the upper class not the rich? Economic equality can not be achieved without social equality.

weather marx would of oppresed jews or blacks in his society, i don't know. maybe he wouldn't, but he stil wouldn't of liked them!!!!

Since when did Marx hate blacks? Why would he oppress the Jews? Does Marx not like himself?

and would of resorted to racist attacks if his authority was threatened!!!

His authority? He wasn't a fucking general. He wanted equality. He wanted no authority. You twist these things around to suit your own fascist ways.

[Reuben]

I too hasve heard the jewish-nigger quote.

What can I say Marx was a creature of his time. In nineteenthc century Britain and western europe, neither jews nor blacks, and probably not slavs were popular. Most british authors of the time were also anti-semitic.

I agree withLenin that Marxism is essentially economic, yet it is this economic determinism which completely goes against racism.

Lenin when you talk about whole ethnic groups being involved in communism "for the wrong reasons" this racist outlook goes against the fabric of Marxs economic determinism

[lenin]

a question to the hirachy of this forum, would Karl Marx be restricted for anti-semitism? would Frederick Engels be restricted for racism? and would Che Guevara be restricted for homophobia?

[Michael De Panama]

Time and time again you repeat this bullshit. I'll correct you yet again:

KARL MARX WAS NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE! HE HAD NOTHING AGAINST THE JEWS AS A RACE, BECAUSE HE WAS A PART OF THEIR RACE! KARL MARX WAS AN ETHNIC JEW! KARL MARX WAS A SEMITE! HE HATED ALL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS WITH NO INDIVIDUAL PREJUDICE TOWARDS ONE OR THE OTHER!

To be anti-semetic and to be anti-religion are totally different things, you fucking wanker. How was Engels racist? Find me proof that Che was homophobic. I know Castro is, but I want to know about Che.

Besides, none of you fuckwads have been banned. Stop complaining.

[lenin]

engels caled for the destruction of 'slavic babarians' fact. but he wasn't racist was he? look, marx was an ethnic jew but he even berated people for having ethnic jew deatures like big noses!!!! he didn't class himself as jewish!!!! he WAS AN ANTI-SEMITE.!!!! no other religion received the abuse judaism got. i can keep finding more quotes if you want?

[STALINSOLDIERS]

ahh for someone that lives in the soviet union and a communist country i would listen to lenin..unlike most of you and me who didnt i would listen to comrade lenin he knows whats right he knows what to do so listen up you hippies....

[lenin]

BTW, i just wanted to point something out. i started this thread to point out that someone can still be a communist and have social views that confllict witht the traditional 'leftist' viewpoint. i didn't start the thread to justify racism on the left.

[Michael De Panama]

That's rediculous. Though I don't know if it's true that Marx berated people for their Jewish features, assuming it is true this is not considered racism. Racism is implying that your race or ethnicity is superior to another. Marx was of the same ethnicity as the rest of the Jews. Marx did not single out the Jews, as your uncle has probably brainwashed you into believing. Marx, towards the end of his life, even respected the observant Jewish rabbis. He never gave up his passionate opposition of all organized religion, of course. All religions got the same treatment from Marx. I'm read so many rants of his towards Christianity. He opposed ALL religion.

Find me a quote proving that Che was a homophobe. I want this just so that I can be enlightened about such.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

i think marx didnt like any religion.......but of of the whole religion thing i hate christians...thats the only religion i hate so much its like capitalism..