Democracy in Cuba (not while Castro is there)

[Capitalist]

Article 71 of the Cuban constitution clearly specifies the election of National Assembly representatives by "free direct and secret vote."

Yet Article 71 has never been upheld or practiced in Cuba since Fidel Castro's 43 year rule/tyranny over Cuba.

If Cuba should embrace the provision in next year's assembly elections, it would cease to be the totalitarian regime it has been for the past 43 years.

It would no longer be Castro's Cuba

It would be a different country

Free election implies the right of opposition parties to organize, criticize the government and compete in the elections. At present, only candidates approved by the Communist Party (Fidel Castro) can run for an assembly seat.

Cuban officials rejected Bush's speech.

Assembly President Ricardo Alarcon (well paid Castro pawn) mocked Bush's insistence that Cuba hold multiparty elections in 2003.

Unfortunately the facts are clear in Cuba:

Only the Communist Party is allowed in Cuba.

Elections are not secret or free.

Only Castro is allowed to run for President.

Anyone who protests the government or communist party is immediately placed in jail or shot for treason (Political Prisoners usually serve about 20 years + for their freedom of speech).

There is nothing free about Cuba's Psuedo Democracy.

Castro and Che Guevara encouraged the embargo on American trade back in 1960, today Che Guevara is dead, and now that the Soviet Union is dead, Fidel Castro wants free trade (money) to fund his government's military rule over the people (like Communist China). Castro needs more weapons and military aid to enforce his oppressive government.

Simple:

If Castro wants free trade - then give the people free democracy, speech, media, free-enterprise, free-education (not brainwash education), etc. etc.

Free Elections = Free Trade

The United States (protector of World Freedom), unlike Europe and Canada, will not support tyranny.

Cuba has free trade with the entire world, why should free trade with the US make one bit of difference?

[Capitalist]

One correction

Unfortunately the United States has tarnished it's reputation with the Chinese People, because it is the biggest supporter of Communist China.

The United States funds the slave labor in China.

Trade with a communist country = Slavery = Cheap Labor = Cheap goods = Corrupt Capitalism

[Capitalist]

Funny how not one "liberal" communist will challenge the truth.

Nothing liberal about BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM.

[ID2002]

..Ummm...
Your missing some facts*
Why would Canada trade with Cuba? Why is Fidel Castro considered a guest of honour in my country and has been to the "House of Commons"? Why? Why does my government believe that he is being treated unfairly by the US? Why do we deny your (US) trade sanctions?

Its easy! Your country resorts to trade blockades whenever your Government feels that we "as Canadians" are being competitive against your "right-wing" Capaitalist economy. This is the same thing you have done to Cuba.
(you don't like their politics so you punish them.)
Your President, George Bush is a fool to have insulted Castro. It did no good. It fuelled the Cuban people with much upset. That was a dumb move!
Canada is behind Castro and we understand how frusterated he feels! It is unfortunate that the US can't leave Castro alone. The US has NO buisness dictating Cuban politics! LEAVE THEM ALONE!
I have been to Cuba MANY MANY MANY times. I have lived there. I am excepted 100%. I have seen much positive gain by having a Left Wing political system. I have met Castro several times, and have been greeted warmly by him. He was honest to me, and the school group that I was with. I have talked "openly" about politics, and about elections...and so on, and NEVER have I had problems with the Police or anything. We even got a tour of some Military Instalations!

here is some interesting info you might like to read:
http://cbc.ca/national/magazine/castro/

(Edited by ID2002 at 3:31 am on June 4, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

I actually thought this was pretty good post, but I don't care to argue about cuba.

[The Ax]

Hey,
The usa's attitude towards Cuba is disgusting. It is so hipocrytical. They won't normalize relations with Cuba because it is "undemocratic" yet at the same time they push for closer ties with the malaysian dictator Mahatir mohammad. The Only reason America isn't normalizing relations with Cuba now is the substantial Cuban vote in Florida. Who is the Governor of Florida? JEB BUSH!!!!!! And the "brainwashing education system", what a load of shit, who has to swear alleigance to the flag every day!! I spit on you and i spit your uninformed veiws on communism, capitalism and PLACES THAT ARE OUTSIDE AMERICA, oh yeah thats right fucker, you disgust me!!!!

The Ax

[Capitalist]

Yes, Free Cubans vote overwelmingly Republican.

You prove my point. Cubans don't believe in Communism, they believe in Freedom and Representation.

Cubans vote for Bush and they helped him win the 2000 election. Unfortunately there is nothing democratic about the Democratic Party in the USA. The Democratic Party should rename themselves the Communist, Racist, and Sexist Party.

Canada (Thank God I'm not Canadian)

DOES THE WORD WEAK Ring a Bell?

It does when I hear the word Canada.

Canada is a weak country. Fidel Castro is considered a great guest of Canada because Canadians ignore the fact that there are no free elections in Cuba.

They ignore that 1/5 of Cubans now live in Exile.

They ignore that there is no freedom of Press or Media in Cuba.

They ignore the thousands of Cuban Political Prisoners and thousands more perish at sea trying to come to Florida's Shores.

Canada is not a country - it is a British Colony that kisses Royal Ass!

[Nateddi]

Capitalist, how is the democratic party racist or sexist? (moreso than the GOP atleast).

[Michael De Panama]

I'll agree with you that Castro's regime is undemocratic and wrong. However, free trade and democracy cannot co-exist. That would not be democracy. It would be a plutocracy.

[Nateddi]

Cubans only vote right wing because they were land owners or offspring of land owners prior to castro. Cubans which come to America have rich people who vote GOP.

Tell me what percentage of people who live in or near poverty vote GOP? What would be their motivation to do so? Why should we care about who the rich vote for, rich people don't need politics to improve their lives, they are rich enough as it is.

[ID2002]

Canada is FAR from being a weak country. ''' wait a second"" are women, and mens Olympic team KICKED THE LIVING shit out the US in hockey. Hey Cuba was cheering like mad!! We are aware of some "bumps" in the road along the way in Cuban politics. It hasn't been easy...

Fidel Castro is a good friend to Canada, and we will honour him....our "right wing" politicans even think that the US is a bigger threat than any Communist leader. They even want to keep Canada and Cuba "together". Fidel is even thinking about further promoting tourism and international school exchanges!
I think both My country and his country work well together.

[RGacky3]

Capitalist, you are probably the most ignorant person on this site. free elections does not mean free trade. Communism and democracy are very compatible, dictatorship and capitalism are also very compatible. Castro is a good man, you know cuba has the best health, education and living standards in all of latin america, thats a large improvement from when batista was in, he was just the U$s little *****.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Castro is a good man? Plu-eez!!!! The man denies his people the most basic rights such as freedom of speech, expression, assembly, opposition, etc. He usurped power 42 years ago and is unrelenting. He issued the executions of something like 30,000 people after the revolution and i dont' want anybody to say they deserved it or it was necessary or even fair. Show trials and that last 24 hours with no appeal are not "fair". No wonder thousands upon thousands want to escape his fortress. When in i think 1979 he allowed everybody who wanted to leave Cuba to do so, he didn't expect the HUGE amount of people that tried to escape and therefore took back his issuing only after a few days. He also confiscated ones land after they left, took people's jewerlley and possessions such as wedding rings, making sure the "worms" suffered. Sure Castro's social reforms are good, i'll admit that, but the means do not justify the ends.

[ID2002]

Not really, Capitalist Fighter. Castro is a good man at heart. I really think he is. But he can be VERY denfensive of his position in politics! I really don't blame him.
Pierre Trudeau's family and friends are Castro's best and closest friends. Pierres son, now without a father often goes to Cuba to spend time with the "Commander" and family as an uncle of sorts. I think thats quite special.
Ever since Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was in power Canada has made an agreement to help Cuba. Your Government got pissed at Pierre for travelling to Cuba, and arrested him and sent him back to Canada for helping an "enemy".
The US needs to get a life.

[Capitalist Fighter]

my government? I'm not american. Also just because the former Canadian PM likes him doesn't mean he is a good man. Would you want Castro running your country?

[The Ax]

Hey,
You truly have no idea do you. You also have no response to Americas hipocracy. You also seem to be a racist, you dismiss canada as weak and then call the democrats weak. And do you have any idea what Cuba was like before the revolution? It was Americas casino and brothel, the people who are currently in the US are the few, the rich who had to be removed for the greater good, Fidel Castro is in no way perfect, but i'd prefer him to george bush anyday.

Go fuck yourself Cappie.

The Ax

[Capitalist Fighter]

Quote: from The Ax on 7:39 am on June 5, 2002
Hey,
You truly have no idea do you. You also have no response to Americas hipocracy. You also seem to be a racist, you dismiss canada as weak and then call the democrats weak. And do you have any idea what Cuba was like before the revolution? It was Americas casino and brothel, the people who are currently in the US are the few, the rich who had to be removed for the greater good, Fidel Castro is in no way perfect, but i'd prefer him to george bush anyday.

Go fuck yourself Cappie.

The Ax

Hmmm, why put words in my mouth. What impression did i give to you that i was a racist of all things? How did i dismiss Canada as "weak" and the democrats?? Your last post was utter garbage. Why don't you debate the points at hand instead of making rubbish out of nothing in order to get notoriety and seem as if you have some contribution.

[Domino]

Castro is a great man!

Why do I see a pattern here, hmm. Are all cappies THAT ignorant?

The U$ only make Cuba look bad. I'm not saying it's a paradise, but it's not as the yankees say it is. They make it sound like if they are really human and care for the Cubans when they really don't give a shit. They always try to sound as the humanitarian country and that's just bull. Humanitarian, riiight!!! I think you guys should keep your words for yourself, specially after your goverment killed so many innocent people at the World Trade Center.

[Capitalist Fighter]

grrrrr, now i'm getting upset. I AM NOT AMERICAN. I AM NOT "YOU GUYS" OR "YOU"!!!! Please fathome that. Also Ax i would like you to answer my post that claimed i was a racist! I might stand for a few things but being called a racist is not one of them!

[Domino]

LMAO! Sorry. I don't like cappies as it is, and then yankee cappies... grrr! Oh well. You're still a cappie though. Heh!

[Guest]

Is it possible tat Capitalist and Capitalist Fighter are two different people and folks are confusing them?

Capitalist's original post was starting to make some sense to me here and there until he had to go and assert that America is some kind of defender of human rights. That's quite laughable. The U.S. is happy to continue relations with any county that the Corporations that run America tell it to. Cuba is opposed not because it denies rights to its citizens, Dozens of countries are far more restrictive and represive and have normal relations. Cuba is loathed and shunned mostly because the ideas of its leader are a threat to the great capitalist plan where the holders of the wealth continue to hold all the wealth indefinitely.

[Capitalist Fighter]

guest the U.S. loses 1 billion dollars annually from not trading with Cuba and from its travel restrictions. If it's primary concern was economy related then surely they would resume talks. Fact remains U.S. is prepared to lose 1 billion annually to not support a dictatorship.

[Guest]

Puh-Lease! The US has normalized relations with plenty of capitalist dictatorships, totalitarian regimes with human rights abuses far worse than Castro.

Saddam Hussein was welcome to bomb the Kurds till he was blue in the face, wage war with his neighbors and repress any right of his citizenry that suited him. He was allowed to do anything he wanted except destabalize the price of oil.

The few businesses that would benefit from a reintroduction of trade relations with cuba (tobacco, sugar, etc) are among the stronger campaigners for lifting the trade embargo. However the legacy of McCarthyism and just the threat of communistic ideology to the aristocracy makes this impossible. Not the human rights violations or lack of personal freedoms of Cuban citizens. The U.S. government has proven conclusively that it couldn't give a rat's ass about the living conditions of the rest of the world's citizens.

[PaulDavidHewson]

It's a fact that Cuba is geographically very lenient for the US.
Trade would be very easy since Cuba lays very close to some major US trade ports.(Houston)

The US would gain alot from trading with Cuba, but the US is insisiting in upholding the legacy that previous presidents persisted in:
"Total embargo on Communist countries".

Only the US is selling out, because they are trading normally with China, etc.


But I wish they did succeeded back then in assasinating Castro, because the people of Cuba are far to oppressed:
-no one is allowed to buy/sell/give away their car. The car belongs to the state and is appointed to you.
-No one is allowed to buy/sell/give away their house. A house is appointed to you and is state property.
-No one is allowed to live or travel to a another part of Cuba without special permission.
-No one is allowed to rent a room in a tourist hotel. untill the day comes that everyone can afford this luxery.
-Surgeons are not allowed to leave the country, unless a request has been made 5 years in advance.
-no free speech/media/elections
-no political opposition
-no fair trials
-everyone who flees the country(becuase no one is allowed to leave normally) is a facist nazi capitalist pig in the eyes of Castro. Their families get shunned by Cuban society.
-Big Castro is watching you!
-etc-etc-etc (please, any cappies or commies please add to this list, maybe we cdan make a complete list of all the do's and dont's in Cuba.)
-Students, amongst others, must perform slave labor by working on the sugar fields.
-The electricity net/communication net/sanitation system all date back from the time of Batista.
-new cars in cuba are cars from 1975.
-there are less cars in Cuba now than there were in the time of Batista.(BLA BLA BLA, don't come whining with the embargo argument, japan builds lots of cars and so do alot of european countries)

The fact remains that Castro exports to much of the crops to foreign country and therefor his country has little to eat. Ah well, Cuba makes excellent sigars.

Yes there is free healthcare and free education, Castro improved on things that were already in a pretty decent state. And anyway the fact that there is free education and healthcare doesn't weigh up against the arguments that are out there against Castro.


When you reply to these arguments please be sure not to turn this around to the USA or another country. We all know USA is a hypocrit and guilty of things that are even worse and yes this also goes for CCCP and china and pol pot and ho chi mihn, etc etc.

Why is is that everyone is Cuba only excepts the U$ dollar from tourists?
Why do they all crave the U$ currency? because it means life and prosperity! Cuba would have loved the Deutsche D-MARK.

Having $$$ means alot to the Cubans because with the $$$ comes a chance for a decent life. Every goverment official in Cuba is corrupt, they all fall prey to $$$.
You know why? Because their life has been shitty for as far back as they can remember.

Castro wanted the embargo and now he has it, but now that "communisme is dead in the world, castro realises that nothing is free anymore and Mother Russia isn't there anymore to aid them.
They are a 3rd world country, a laughing stock, still in the 60's with their life style and You know why?
CASTRO!!! HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[PaulDavidHewson]

Oh yes and let's not forget that Castro asked CCCP to give him guidelines on how to implement Communisme in his Country. (talk about asking the wrong country)
No big wonder Cuba= Stalinisme mixed with a little herb called Castro.

[Capitalist]

Communism = Corrupt Capitalism

Sweat Shops = Corrupt Capitalism

Slavery = Corrupt Capitalism

Ban on Workers Unions & Free Assembly = Corrupt Capitalism

Capitalism that profits off forced labor is always corrupt. Communist Government and Socialistic States (for example NAZI Germany) always enforce the people to work for the state, not themselves. They manipulate and control the people through the following means:

No free education (must attend state schools only. "Teachers leave those kids alone" - Pink Floyd)

No free media or journalism (Cuba has outlawed all newspapers but the Grandma)

No free speech or protest (It is a crime to insult Fidel Castro's name or government. One man was jailed for 4 years for simply hanging the Cuban Flag Upside down)

No freedom to bear arms, except for Military Personnel Only

CDR and Gestapo on every corner to keep a good spie eye on every neighbor

No freedom of Assembly, No Unions.

No Free Enterprise = True Capitalism or right to even own your own business. All the money goes to the state

Racist Government controlled by the elite (Fidel Castro's Government is almost entirely made up of White Men http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_politi...cal_power.html) (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_political_power.html))

Fidel Castro was the son of a landowner, not the Cuban Exiles.

I am sick of fucking liberal morons saying that Cuban Exiles are rich people. You have no clue what you are talking about. You tell that to the boat people that came over in 1980. You tell the same to the second boat load that came over in 1994 and was stationed at Guantamno Bay because Clinton had no place to put them. You tell that to the thousands of Cubans, including Elian Gonzalez's Mother, who drowned at sea trying to reach the USA. You tell that to the Cubans that broke into the Mexican Embassy about 2 months ago - to later be returned to Cuba. Nobody knows what happened to these people - they are most likely dead.

Don't worry about innocent political prisoners in Cuba confined to small crowded cells with no food, toilet, or water. - but let the world shed tears for the American Taliban Prisoners at Guantamano sipping on lemonade - the same people that enforced slavery on Afgahnistan.

Wake Up! - You are the Enemy

Nothing Social about Communism.

High Taxes = Ban on Free Enterprise.

I am not an African American or Irish American = I am American! I am not a minority and I don't need stupid special favors from you liberal mother fuckers. I can do it on my own without your Affirmative Action and Welfare.

If you want Welfare!

If you want to sit on your lazy ass and smoke weed all day.

If you want to be taken care of by your country.

Than go live in Cuba where there is no access to internet so that we don't have to hear your stupid *****ing anymore.

Cuba = Slave Island

[Capitalist]

Another Thing,

Cuba encouraged the embargo in the First Place.

Che Guevara and Fidel Castro encouraged Cubans to stop buying American Goods.

Che Guevara killed people for simply supporting American Trade with Cuba

American Companies Oil Refineries were confiscated during the 1960s ending millions of jobs for hard working Cubans.

Che Guevara encouraged the embargo.

Che Guevara is NOT CUBAN - he is a foreign communist invader from Argentina.

Now you want to end the Embargo??

Che Guevara would be soooo disappointed.

Remember - Don't Buy American (Including all those 1950s American Cars that are still driving the streets of Cuba)

[Guest]

I have no idea how I wound up in the unenviable position of defending Che and Castro (especially Castro). However, given that I find myself there, let's have at it.

Paul, you have the answer to your question right there in the arguments you forbid. When you say don't turn it around on other countries or mention the U.S. etc. You list many things that the Cuban's don't have. Most of those things are because Castro forbids them, but many of them also have a lot to do with what the U.S. does not allow Cuba to have.

Cuba is an island. As such it needs to either have every possible raw material need produced on that island or it needs to interact with countries outside itself. This is true whether it's capitalist, socialist, whatever. Cuba certainly wasn't helped by the United State's attacks on Cuba that sabatoged much of the means of production that Cuba had back in the 60s. And whether Cuba invited the embargo on itself or not has no bearing on the fact that the U.S. strong armed the rest of the world into trying to starve the Cubans out and that the U.S. --which has by now sucked the resources out of the rest of the world and into the accounts of its oligarchy-- is the very market that all tiny nations in this hemisphere need to trade with. It was intentionally set up that way.

The Cuban revolution didn't take place in a vacum, it took place parallel to what was going on in China and the USSR. To me there is no rationalization for the violence of the initial Cuban revolution, but nor is it just some wicked thing Castro thought up. They wanted to eradicate the corruption of Batista and liberate the Cuban people, that was an admirable goal as Batista highly corrupt and elitist. The model for how to sweep away the established regime through butchery and terrorism could also have just as easily been borrowed from the United State's Native American policy.

The U.S. dollar thing being the currency of Cuba I don't think I need to get into. We pretty much all know what that's about. Cuba obviously has had to adopt from culture it loathes, a communist Cuba can't really sustain itself in a capitalist dominated world where the 800 pound gorilla is hell bent on making an example of it for daring to be communist.

The cuban exiles ARE rich. You can be sick of hearing that characterization all you want, it remains generally true. Those who fled the initial Cuban revolution were the wealthy, the intelligencia and those who had any reason to believe that Castro would think them loyal to Batista. They may not be rich by U.S. standards (though many are), but they are the demographic that lends their political support to anyone who seems most likely to overrun Cuba and return them to the form of aristocracy that they preferred. Obviously this does not encompas everyone who ever fled from Cuba subsequently but it encompasses the Cuban's who vote.

And don't presume to tell me I don't worry about political prisoners in Cuba. I am very angered by political prisoners in Cuba. Just as I am angered by political prisoners of the United States, and political prisoners of countries around the world. That is a failing of humans and their willingness to dominate through suppression however and not a failing of any particular economic system.

As for Che being dissapointed in me. Oh well, I'm not really seeking Che's approval believe it or not.

[ID2002]

No one person is perfect. Sure their have been bad times in Cuba, as well as good times! But it is true that Cuba was an American holiday resort before the revolution. All sorts of shit happened...and finally Che/Castro put and end all the US exploitation of Cuban citizens. plain and simple.

I would rather have Castro in politics in Canada than a George Bush any day!

[The Ax]

Hey,
I'm sorry cappie fighter i mixed you up with cappie. Cappie i want to rip your head off and shit down your neck!!

The Ax

[Capitalist Fighter]

np Ax, i think i might have overreacted as well. :)

[PaulDavidHewson]

Guest,

It was Castro's mistake to rely only on the USSR.
Che didn't want this and spoke out against it. He knew USSR is as bad as USA(even worse).

Tactical nuclear missiles (silos) on the island were also not a bright idea. Castro got screwed over when USSR retracted the missiles without the knowledge of Castro, leaving them both in embarrasing position.

Cuban exiles are not rich, they flee the island in Tire Tubes/home made rafts, hoping they get picked up by the coast guard of USA.
They give so very little for their current lives that they are willing to risk live and limb fleeing Castro's prison.


Castro promised free elections when he started his revolution and he didn't give it. He screwed Cuba ten times over. If he gave the Cuban people free elections than he would be a saint.
Everyone understands the reasons why Cuba wanted the revolution.

They wanted the embargo themselves, they wanted nothing to do with the USA and now they reap what they've sown.

Free elections = Free trade!

[SU37]

If Cuba goes Capitali$t and Castro is killed,Cuba's new Capitali$t leader's dirty hands will pulled by Washington and Washington will control every move.So much for Capitali$m bringing freedom to Cuba.Cuba will have a puppet goverment if Capitali$m takes over there.

(Edited by SU37 at 9:26 am on June 6, 2002)

[The Ax]

Hey,
Sorry all those i offended, but sometimes ignorant veiwpoints like cappies piss me off. I'd also like to say that i'm not one of those kill all cappies types and i can sometimes support a good cappie regime.

Just clearing the slate.

The Ax