The Capitalist Model - .....Today?

[IzmSchism]

Okay, maybe this thread has already been started, but since there is a lot of discussion going on of present about the Communist structure, I would like to balance out the forum with some talk of present day Capitalism, more over, Capitalism of North America.

Given the events of September 11th, many people were predicting a heavy dip in the economy, so far, as we are led to believe that in fact the economy is doing fine, with a few smaller broker and insurance firms going belly up, on the whole things still seem relatively intact. BUT here lies the the dark side of what may be more to come, major companies like Enron going completely bankrupt, Arthur Anderson hiding evidence, helping to take advantage of generally applied accounting principles to make things look better than they appear, or companies like Merryl Lynch, who after paying a 100M settlement to the trade commission are looking really sketchy......

Basically what do you guys think of Capitalism, what are its current strengths and weaknesses......When you think about it, really North America is the only country in the world that is using this system whole heartedly, Europe is somewhere close, Russia isn't, Australia is close, Africa is Africa, and Latin America.....well we all know, so what is so good about this system.....and what are these sign of major companies that go bankrupt and are tied to unfair trading practices, are these the few exceptions are is the downfall of Capitalism starting to happen???

[Supermodel]

I think these are really good questions. The issue regarding the US for me boils down to the complete hippocrisy and double/triple standards in foreign policy and the US' self-appointed role in the world. I think we are coming closer to getting that topic on the table after 9/11 and that should be better for the world as a whole.

The real issue facing the world today is the absolute difference between the richest and the poorest human beings, including consideration of their basic human rights (like the right for women to marry whom they want, be treated as a human, have reproductive choice, and not have their bodies destroyed in the name of custom)

I think if each country, capitalist or not (OK, so this should never be an issue in a communist country) should put on its agenda the tightening of the gap between rich and poor, then expand the formula to regional and finally global levels, we will have achieved as close as possible one of the primary goals of socialism, while leaving as many personal and tribal rights and freedoms in place.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Sacrificing control over your own destiny, success, and freedom of choice for a mediocre, state controlled existence with little freedom. What a great idea!!!

[IzmSchism]

CI, a question, what do you do, as in occupation or student? how old are you....? Are you some high rollin exec. day trading on your palm pilot selling your asian security fund from your bentley while you scarf down the double combo cheeseburger deal from mcdicks? or are you working for the man, punching the card, taking your two breaks a day, hour lunch, or are you a student, and if you are what are you studying?

I asked a fairly sensible question about the future of the capitalist system, and you throw it back in my face with the most dogmatic piece of shit, Ignorance reigns my friend when all we do is battle over own ideas and opinions without allowing for some open dialougue and conversation....So if you wish to actually be truthful and comment on the future of our country...pls do so.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I am neither of the above. closer to the middle, in my late 20's, with a degree in business, I work as a financial analyst for a major US corp (not a big exec yet), still young in the company, but doing good considering how long i've been here. I drive a 2001 american make SUV, looking to buy a house when the market is favorable (my area of the country is particularly expensive). I don't punch a clock, but i don't have a palm puilot either. I'm on a salary with bonuses. I don't think my response was dogmatic, I just like to argue with a philosophical tone sometimes. I think the future of the capitalist system is very bright, with much of our potential yet to be acheived. Capitalism is a system that gives you back exactly what you put into it.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Good questions posed. Though capitalism works better then communism, well in my opinion anyway, i do find myself questioning the system when i see such a large gap between rich and poor. The problems i have with a complete free market and enterprise is that necessities for each human including health, education and housing is not provided for each human being. Meaning those less off then the rich don't get the same standard of health care, education and housing and those with no income get neither. That is absolutely disgraceful in the 21st century. I like the idea of free enterprise however do think necessities such as the above mentioned should be allocated by the state equally to the individual. I am attracted to the communist economics however the real life failures of the system have kind of swayed me. I do however believe capitalism can flourish worldwide if imperialism, the spreading of western companies abroad and NOT capitalism to nations, is stopped. Imperialism benefits nobody, it allows the few to reign over the rest.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Capitalist Fighter on 5:29 am on June 4, 2002
Good questions posed. Though capitalism works better then communism, well in my opinion anyway, i do find myself questioning the system when i see such a large gap between rich and poor. The problems i have with a complete free market and enterprise is that necessities for each human including health, education and housing is not provided for each human being. Meaning those less off then the rich don't get the same standard of health care, education and housing and those with no income get neither. That is absolutely disgraceful in the 21st century. I like the idea of free enterprise however do think necessities such as the above mentioned should be allocated by the state equally to the individual. I am attracted to the communist economics however the real life failures of the system have kind of swayed me. I do however believe capitalism can flourish worldwide if imperialism, the spreading of western companies abroad and NOT capitalism to nations, is stopped. Imperialism benefits nobody, it allows the few to reign over the rest.

Well said, only your solutions cannot work.

Capitalism = free enterprise = economic freedom = freedom to expand = globalization / imperialism.

Capitalism = free enterprise = economic freedom = freedom to place a market in health care = give service to higher employers who can buy them = 40,000,000 can't go to the doctor without losing a lot of cash which could be used for other means.

The third world would never in hell get out of their holes without aid from the first world (well they would, but it would take a century at least).

Companies need profit to compete + it is easy to employ people from other parts of the world these days = imperialism = one company getting bigger profits = other companies following suit to not get out-profited by competators = global american corporate domination.

(Edited by Nateddi at 5:36 am on June 4, 2002)

[El Che]

"Capitalism is a system that gives you back exactly what you put into it.

Yea I`m sure bill gates puts 5 zillions more "into capitalism" each day then an indonesian nike worker does... What CI means, is that capitalism works for him, so fuck you.

[Guest1]

Bill Gates bought the first operating system he sold, DOS, for $20,000, one day AFTER he'd sold it. He didn't even know where to get it when he signed the deal, he just went out and tried to find an operating system, having told IBM that he'd already written it. Yeah, you get what you put in, my ass.

Peace

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 1:15 am on June 4, 2002)

[Guest]

If you are looking for strengths of capitalism, look no further than the Enron debaucle. A company that was all smoke and mirrors, which actually contributed little to the economics of the U.S., and benefited from unscrupulous business practices has been destroyed. The accounting firm that kept Enron's books, aided and abetted in the commission of crimes has been uncovered. Anderson will never be trusted by any company to do their accounting, nor will they ever have a license to do so. Honest corporations, which may have used creative accounting in order to inflate their apparent success to draw capital from the stock market, are being forced to simplify the way they record there gains. These companies are being scrutinized as investors have lost their trust in the market system. It is in there best interest to ease the process of researching prospective stocks if they wish to draw capital at this unpredicable time. Best of all, idiotic investors, who let others do their thinking for them have lost big and been scared out of the stock market. These morons had no business in the market to begin with. I do not feel sorry for the people who lost, because they wished to make a quick profit without actually doing any of the leg work. This is a consequence of being a sheep. Eventually, sheep are led away to the slaughter. Finally, the question of how much political access money should buy has been brought to the for front. One can only conclude that the market system is learning from previous mistakes. The market system is actually working better as a consequence. It is only the justice system that is failing at this point.
If you want weakness, I am sure many of you will agree, that it is the exploiting of cheap labor overseas that many corporations are engaged in. I do not say this for the same reasons that you communists would. The fact remains that many of these exploits are taking place in communist or socialist nations. For example, it is immoral to use the slave labor that China provides just because it exists and is cheap. Another lesson that the market will inevitably learn, is that communist nations can not be trusted. Imagine the sunk cost these corporations have accrued by moving overseas. How will the investor benefit when these nations with huge armies seize control of the industrial capital and infrastructure that was paid for with their money? How will the U.S. economy fair when it loses these assets? Not only is it a weakness in our market system it remains a huge national security threat, arguably greater than that of the current terrorist threat.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Enron, Enron, Enron...

Of course Enron was a debaucle, we all know that, but corruption and crime happen all over the world, and this is 1 company out of thousands in the US that do good, honest, ethical business. And I don't see what is wrong with microsoft, most of you are probably communicationg through windows!!! Without bill gates, the internet as you know it would not exist!!! And bill gaetes is a shrew businessman, stop being jealous of our success and step up yourselves!!!

[Tkinter1]

Capatilism mixes in the best of both sides. Equal oppurtunity, is the way to true equlity. Big buisness requires workers. no ones forcing people in indonesia to work for nike. theres no place else for them to work. and those companys are operated interanaly, so dont blame us for poor working conditioins. If they want a better life, they should gather there money that they earn at the sweat shop, and get a ticket on a boat and get better working conditions in the US. and dont tell me its imposible for them to do that. 'If they will it it is no dream'.

and do any of you communists really plan to hold a revoulution against the united states and other countries? Or are all the gatherings and threats empty and meaningless.
you all post like the poporozzi. you talk abotu every single problem the US has as if under communism life would be blissful and wonderfull. Since its worked so well in the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im looking forward to a communist revoultuion, i'll laugh at the quickness of its disbandment, at the hands of the U.S. ( it might not be you who is planning with "secerey militias", but ive seen that kind of bullshit posted on numerous occasions) OooO im nationilistic. aren't you going to twist my words around and call me ' an average american pride iodiot' or a victim of 'jingoism'

[Tkinter1]

Capatilism mixes in the best of both sides. Equal oppurtunity, is the way to true equlity. Big buisness requires workers. no ones forcing people in indonesia to work for nike. theres no place else for them to work. and those companys are operated interanaly, so dont blame us for poor working conditioins. If they want a better life, they should gather there money that they earn at the sweat shop, and get a ticket on a boat and get better working conditions in the US. and dont tell me its imposible for them to do that. 'If they will it it is no dream'.

and do any of you communists really plan to hold a revoulution against the united states and other countries? Or are all the gatherings and threats empty and meaningless.
you all post like the poporozzi. you talk abotu every single problem the US has as if under communism life would be blissful and wonderfull. Since its worked so well in the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im looking forward to a communist revoultuion, i'll laugh at the quickness of its disbandment, at the hands of the U.S. ( it might not be you who is planning with "secerey militias", but ive seen that kind of bullshit posted on numerous occasions) OooO im nationilistic. aren't you going to twist my words around and call me ' an average american pride iodiot' or a victim of 'jingoism'

[IzmSchism]

CI, yeah perhaps Enron is one in a sea of companies, but how many companies do Anderson Consulting do accounting for?

As well I think you should read Small is Beautiful, economics as if people mattered.

[Guest]

Maybe I did not make myself clear. Enron was a good thing. An example of the market system coughing up a hair ball. The after effect of Enron is a healthier economy minus some of its parasites. All the companies who used Anderson to keep their books have drop them, and their license has been pulled. What more do you want for the system. Sure the justice department should have frozen assets of the top executives and the C.E.O. should have his head on a spear, but that is left to the executive branch which enforces the law. Any action must be reviewed by the judicial branch who has the responsibilty of trying those cases.

The people of China do not have the opportunity to hitch a boat overseas. The are being controlled by a militaristic oligarchy. It is the fault of an overabundance of people who lusted after the property of others and supported communist theory. That is what I do not understand about many people on this message board. How can you support an idea which leads to murder and enslavement. Learn from history your communist viewpoint is not only immoral, it is dangerous.

[Guest]

Tkinker 1,

I too am nationalistic. I support the ideas which this country are founded upon. That does not excuse the many perversions of this pure ideal that are occurring at this time. Politically correctness and liberal viewpoints are at the very heart of this misfortune.
When it comes to terrorism, I think we need a harder line. Even the Bush doctorines are being weaken by leftist nonsense. Some examples of this include, our stance in the Middle East, our alliance with Pakistan, the notion that racial profiling is out of bounds in this new climate. We need a decisive blow to the Al Quida network, but I fear that they will deliver the next punch. We have been too slow to react. The war must be taken to their level. If they hit another monument to engineering, like the trade center, we destroy Mecca. If the value there backwords way of life, they should know we will not tolerate a disruption to ours.

[Tkinter1]

guest,

haha i saw swordfish to. If they bomb us and we DONT do anything though. Would they have any reason to continue? The U.S. always interferes with other nations. No bullshit, where just trying to help. these countries have to stop assuming that where their to destroy and convert and corrupt their land. If we stood by and watched the earth crumble because were stuck in isolationism, what kind of race would we be?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Most of the times that the US is in another country it is because that country asked... no,usually BEGGED, for our help

[IzmSchism]

What are you talking about, the only time the states ever enters into a war or some type of conflict is due to a huge political or economical reason, usually the both come hand in hand, without a friendly democratic government in power, i.e., vietnam, iraq, the list goes on....the yanks suffer economically, they are the ones who BEG for CONFORMITY for easy entrance to foreign markets and culture and society.

Nevermind that you are so pegged on global domination via soccer and other such things.....you argue freedom of speech as a virtue, then how come Marnwoski a southern student (not sure exactly on name sp. and state) but he is being taken to court for heckling Bush sr. back in the day,

[Capitalist Imperial]

i need specifics on that case to comment...

We went to iraq because kuwait asked us to liberate them, and they were our trading partner. The south vietnamese asked for our help as well

[Guest]

Tkinter1,

We tried that approach of doing nothing under the Clinton administration. The first attack on the World Trade Center, many attacks on our embassies overseas, attacks on military barracks in Saudi Arabia, and the U.S.S. Cole all went unanswered. The Clinton administration's policy regarding terrorism was to take a judicial approach. This method failed to get at the heart of the problem. For every terrorist that was locked behind bars 100 new recruits were waiting to take their place.
A far better method is to disrupt and confuse the forces that wish harm upon the people of the United States. Fight fire with fire. Assasinate men like Hussien, Castro, Arafat and top leutenants in the Al Quida network. Take Iraq and squeeze Iran on both sides. Once in this position put the ultimatum to the Saudis. All the while, using the oil in that region to fuel our war machines and our economy. Another front must occur in the Pacific must be fought simultaneously. The time to sit back and turn the other cheek is over. The best defense, in this case, is a great offense.

P.S. The man in swordfish was a terrorist himself. His methods were questionable at best, his patriotism was questionable, and his ethics were poor. He was a man willing to sacrifice the freedom and lives of Americans to secure freedom and save the lives of Americans. Do you see the contradiction? I hope that man does not exist in reality, for he is just as dangerous as the fanatics we need to defeat.

[IzmSchism]

kill' em all....

what a fucking joke BRA

wwhy do you think we have so much interest over in the middle east....the great Prize, OIL. Do you really think if we had no economic interest in other parts of the world, such as oil and cheap labour that these issues would be so pressing. Go ahead and kill Arafat you twat, please tell me how much further to resolution we will go. For example, when the Israeli troops pulled out of Jenin, what was the first thing that the Palestinians did, another suicide bombing, that killed 24 people, now put that tiny example and pit it to an event like you describe as the assasination of their leader, the Arab world would explode not just over there, but right in your backyard. Please do not make it sound as the US is the victim.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Uh, excuse me, Izm Schizm, but the politics of oil is no excuse for terrorist fanatics to kill 3000 unsuspecting innocent people (9/11). We were attacked 1st, dude, so actually, we ARE the victims. And regardless of US foreign policy, those cowards should of at least attacked a US base, not an unarmed civilian center. We are not attacking afghanistan due to oil. Afghanistan doesn't even have much oil. We are retaliating. Give me a break, we're not the victim? Hmmmm...

[Tkinter1]

check mate!

[Tkinter1]

Izm i noticed you spell several of your words the english way, do you live in the U.S.?

[Guest]

I support isolationism whole heartly, it is the bleeding heart liberals who have us involved in nation building. For the most part our troops belong in the U.S. unless we are fighting a war.
Let the Arab world explode, we gave the fuckers many of their weapons. Rest assurred we did not give the them the custom models with all of the options. Our technology will help us win a war with those fanatics. The U.S. should stop pussy footing around the issue, it is an inevitablity in the minds of the backwards fanatics who declared war on us. The military expenditures that our capitalistic economy exercises will guarantee our success, just like it helped us win the cold war. If you think that I am afraid to live because of the terrorists in my backyard you are mistaken. If attacks on this country become prevalent, I guarantee that Arabs are easy enough to identify that they will be removed. Let's hope that things don't get that bad, for I am sure most of them have come to the U.S. to achieve the American dream. Sorry, but the lives of our people comes before the idea that we must let anyone and everyone into our country.