Nietzsche on Women

[Holden Caulfield]

after reading several of Nietzsches works i cannot grasp what his opinion of woman is..

from what i have read it seems to me a negative image or possibly just a reflection of women in society on average at the time of the books however i feel and hope that i may be massivly misreading this as it doesn't seem to fit into my view of his views..

if anybody could clear this up it would be uber-super,

[Holden Caulfield]

anybody...
does nobody like Nietzsche on revleft?:crying:

[wallflower]

I have read no Nietzsche (though he's at the top of my to-do list), yet have read copious amounts of Derrida, one of Nietzsche's most eminent advocates in the twentieth-century. The preface to Derrida's "Of Grammatology", written by Gayatri Spivak, gives a brief synopsis of Derrida's reading of Nietzsche. Nietzsche avowed that the idea of metaphysics, in its transition from Platonism to Christianity, "became a woman." In short, the coming-to-be of Christianity inaugurated an epoch of castration, and the idea of metaphysics became a castrated and castrating woman, to be pursued by the male-type philosopher for purposes of possession and appropriation. This is rather a simplified account Nietzche's position on the issue of Christianity; I would suggest to think instead on this particular issue of castration within a Freudian/Lacanian framework, where Man "wears" the phallus, while Woman "possesses/is", through melancholic introjection, the capital-P Phallus, that is, the transcendental signified and a true "objet petit-a" to Man. Whence the tragi-comic character of both Man and Woman in a romantic relationship.

Back on topic: according to Spivak, in regard to the Nietzschean assertion of the idea of metaphysics "becoming a woman" with the advent of Christianity, "A general reading of Nietzsche's text would see him as a raging misogynist. But Derrida's careful reading disengages a more complex collection of attitudes toward woman." Derrida, cognizant of even the slightest, most minute turn of phrase, fixates on the moment in Nietzsche where the idea of metaphysics "becomes a woman" and breaks Nietzsche's argument into three psychoanalytic "moments", three concepts of "Woman". Citing Derrida:

I: "The woman...condemned as...figure or power of lying...He [Nietzsche] was, he feared such a castrated woman". (This woman, in my estimation, represents the duplicitous Christian Eve in her existence as rib-of-Adam and betrayer of Man, as presented in the book of Genesis).

II: "The woman...condemned as...figure or power of truth...He [Nietzsche] was, he feared such a castrating woman". (This is woman as the idea of metaphysics, a veritable mountain to be scaled, ostensibly, for the purpose of acquisition of knowledge, yet, when examined within a Freudian/Lacanian framework, more likely for the purpose of returning to the womb from which the body was once abjected).

III: "The woman...recognized, beyond this double negation [betrayer/"objet petit-a"], affirmed as the affirmative, dissimulating, artistic, Dionysiac...He [Nietzsche] was, he loved such an affirmative woman".

With this third concept of Woman, we can return to Lacan's description of Woman as "the sex that is not one" and mark Nietzsche's appreciation for a dissimulation of Woman, not an overly-simplified concept of Woman as either entirely betrayer or entirely lust-object. Perhaps we can even see a strikingly *progressive* attitude toward Woman in a careful analysis of what seems at first an outrageously sexist remark.

As I said, I have not read any Nietzsche, but, as he was such an influence on Derrida, and as Derrida has provided us with one of the most acute critiques of the authority of metaphysical assertions, I have to admit: I like him, despite never having read him. That said, his "Basic Collected Works" is definitely on my reading-list for the next few weeks. The lesson to be learned from all of this, I think, is that Woman is stigmatized, even now, by the repercussions of Derrida's first two readings of Nietzsche on Women. Instead of retaining these dominant misconceptions, Derrida argues Nietzsche instead worked to thwart them.

[Os Cangaceiros]

"Thus Spoke Zarathustra" probably has his most famous musings about women.

It's difficult to determine exactly what Nietzche's own opinions about women are out of it, though, as it is told as a fictional narrative, and Nietzsche sometimes seems to be mocking his main character in the book.

[Holden Caulfield]

even in his 'why i am so wise' he seems to portray hints of the same view as in 'Thus Spoke'

[TheLuddite]

anybody...
does nobody like Nietzsche on revleft?:crying:

I do :D

[TheLuddite]

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche



"A subject for a great poet would be God's boredom after the seventh day of creation."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche



"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche



"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche



"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche

[Apollodorus]

anybody...
does nobody like Nietzsche on revleft?:crying:

Personally, I loathe him. He was not only bad at philosophy, but he was also a bad individual. There is plenty of poetry which is easier to understand than his works. I am not sure why he writes in secret messages, maybe because he has this image of himself as some sort of omniscient Ancient, with people discovered lost truths from his works, like a bunch of egyptologists decoding hieroglyphics. Or perhaps it is to draw attention away from poor reasoning and ridiculous, if not dangerous, conclusions. Personally, I do not care about his opinion of women: but considering how mutilated his ethics are, I doubt he holds them in high regard.

By the way, if you are looking for Nietzsche advocates, try Googling 'Neo-Nazi forum'.

[Holden Caulfield]

try adding something of value jack-ass,
he was not a 'proto nazi' yes he talked of race but only in the way of him being proud of his culture rather than race,

he had many socialist ideas to boot and the 'mutilated ethics' are kind of the point in many of his works, all great philiosphers are matyrs to their own work,

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Nietzsche's alleged nazism was an invention of his sister -- we have discussed this here many times.

I'll provide the links later -- got to go out...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Personally, I loathe him. He was not only bad at philosophy, but he was also a bad individual. There is plenty of poetry which is easier to understand than his works. I am not sure why he writes in secret messages, maybe because he has this image of himself as some sort of omniscient Ancient, with people discovered lost truths from his works, like a bunch of egyptologists decoding hieroglyphics. Or perhaps it is to draw attention away from poor reasoning and ridiculous, if not dangerous, conclusions. Personally, I do not care about his opinion of women: but considering how mutilated his ethics are, I doubt he holds them in high regard.

By the way, if you are looking for Nietzsche advocates, try Googling 'Neo-Nazi forum'.

I think that you're being a little hard on Nietzsche. I myself consider Nietzsche to be an intelligent and interesting individual; but that's just my opinion. Philosophy is open to wide interpretation, of course.

I do kinda resent you bringing Nazis into this, though.:glare:

That's a (false) accusation that has plagued Nietzsche and his philosophy for years. Nietzsche himself would've despised the Nazi movement.

[Apollodorus]

try adding something of value jack-ass,

I can see you have been instructed well in how to conduct a philosophical discussion. It is always good to call your opponent a 'jack-arse' because they disagree with you before you begin your argument.



he had many socialist ideas to boot and the 'mutilated ethics' are kind of the point in many of his works, all great philiosphers are matyrs to their own work,

If I may quote Thus Spake Zarathustra: '"One no longer becomes poor or rich ; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.'

I can not see how that is a socialist idea.



he was not a 'proto nazi' yes he talked of race but only in the way of him being proud of his culture rather than race,


Nietzsche's alleged nazism was an invention of his sister -- we have discussed this here many times.

Rosa, if Nietzsche's alleged Nazism was an invention of his sister then so too was the whole concept of the [I]Übermensch. To quote Der Antichrist, section three:

'The problem I thus pose is not what shall succeed mankind in the sequence of living beings (man is an end), but what type of man shall be bred, shall be willed, for being higher in value, worthier of life, more certain of a future. Even in the past this higher type has appeared often—but as a fortunate accident, as an exception, never as something willed. In fact, this has been the type most dreaded—almost the dreadful—and from dread the opposite type was willed, bred, and attained: the domestic animal, the herd animal, the sick human animal—the Christian.'

Considering this, try and argue that the Übermensch is completely unrelated to eugenics and racial supremacy. Go on, try.


I think that you're being a little hard on Nietzsche. I myself consider Nietzsche to be an intelligent and interesting individual; but that's just my opinion.

I must admit, so did I, to begin with. I actually quite liked reading The Birth of Tragedy, and the idea of the Apollonian and the Dionysian. I suppose I was sort of interested in his later works, too, but not in an admiring way; it is more similar to the way in which one is interested in Chernobyl, or how tourists are attracted to battlefields and torture chambers.

[chimx]

Nietzsche didn't have much luck with the ladies, contracting some STD at an early age. Later he had regular three-somes with a woman and another man and was fairly heartbroken when she favored him over the other man.

[Holden Caulfield]

I can see you have been instructed well in how to conduct a philosophical discussion. It is always good to call your opponent a 'jack-arse' because they disagree with you before you begin your argument.
.

yes i acsept i swear frequently, no i dont mix in circles of the intelligencia and this is how i know how and enjoy expressing myself, apologies if i hurt your feelings little man...

and secondly im sure you, you yourself oh wise one Apollodorus, have never been instructed on how to conduct a philosophical discussion on Nietzsches view on women, and mention nothing of the subject matter yet throw the same old wasted views about him being an evil nazi,

in Zarathusa, 'superman' & 'uberman' to me seem to point to the progression of man socially and as party of the movement towards a better world for all of mankind, persoanlly i take this as progresion towards communism, this holds up when teamed with his chapter of the 'Three Metamorphasis' (sp?) which seems to me point to the revolution of the opressed in society, for me again the working classes,

[Kropotesta]

I can't see how anyone can really like Nietzsche. He had some pretty horrid ideas.

[Module]

It was specifically anti-semitism that was invented by his sister, I seem to remember. Nietzsche, in reference to other comments made in this thread, was not specifically opposed to communist theory, however he definately didn't support it. Nietzsche was not in the business of supporting certain forms of social or economic organisation.
I wouldn't straight out believe that Nietzsche was a misogynist, as I've never heard anything genuine of him that would lean towards that sort of discrimination.

He was generally just a dreadful cynic. Although - not that there's anything wrong with that.

Although, I used to know a man who practically worshipped Nietzsche - He was morbidly depressed, very overt misanthropist (and misogynist), and is now currently serving 10 years in gaol for raping minors. Not a nice man.

[Apollodorus]

yes i acsept i swear frequently, no i dont mix in circles of the intelligencia and this is how i know how and enjoy expressing myself, apologies if i hurt your feelings little man...

Ah well, if you want to aspire to being a 'tough, manly bloke', so be it. Just do not expect anything except the attitude I have towards all tough, manly blokes.



and secondly im sure you, you yourself oh wise one Apollodorus, have never been instructed on how to conduct a philosophical discussion on Nietzsches view on women, and mention nothing of the subject matter yet throw the same old wasted views about him being an evil nazi,

Quite right. Too much Nietzsche and not enough women. Here is a quote I found from The Gay Science. It took a ten second search on Google:

'When a man stands in the midst of his own noise, in the midst of his own surf of plans and projects, then he is apt also to see quiet, magical beings gliding past him and to long for their happiness and seclusion: women. He almost thinks that his better self dwells there among the women, and that in these quiet regions even the loudest surf turns into deathly quiet, and life itself into a dream about life. Yet! Yet! Noble enthusiast, even on the most beautiful sailboat there is a lot of noise, and unfortunately much small and petty noise. The magic and the most powerful effect of women is, in philosophical language, action at a distance, actio in distans: but this requires first of all and above all - distance.'

There we have it. He casts them aside with Wilde-esque chauvinistic wit as being no more than an evil temptation unto man. Surprise, surprise.



in Zarathusa, 'superman' & 'uberman' to me seem to point to the progression of man socially and as party of the movement towards a better world for all of mankind, persoanlly i take this as progresion towards communism, this holds up when teamed with his chapter of the 'Three Metamorphasis' (sp?) which seems to me point to the revolution of the opressed in society, for me again the working classes,

I already answered that with the quote from Der Antichrist in my last post.

[Holden Caulfield]

Ah well, if you want to aspire to being a 'tough, manly bloke', so be it. Just do not expect anything except the attitude I have towards all tough, manly blokes.

to ask anybody who hath seen my msn picture (blackflag revolutionary, bolshevik butcher or svetlana) or anybody to see my myspace can agree i am not a manly man meat head that you imply just as i say you are being pissy,

and secondly, although i do think that Nietzsche was a misogynist i dont think that he did cast them aside as just this however negative his view,

i might follow this up with quotes but i cant be bothered combing my books to find them as football is on i have a beer and i am a manly meat head

[black magick hustla]

The "Ubermensch" has nothing to do with race. It is a spiritual thing, the transcedence of morality and convention to the point that Man is only subservient to his creative will, and therefore is able to destroy and build whatever values he desires.

[Philosophical Materialist]

He was rather misogynist and rather typical of his times in regards to his attitudes towards the female gender. He considered women to be irrational, unintellectual, shallow, flighty creatures who were undesirable distractions.

[Holden Caulfield]

He was rather misogynist and rather typical of his times in regards to his attitudes towards the female gender. He considered women to be irrational, unintellectual, shallow, flighty creatures who were undesirable distractions.

this was my origional (and current) view of Nietzsche's view of women, and i have the quotes to back it up but i dont think anybody will disagree with it really so i will leave them until somebody does

[Holden Caulfield]

by Nietzsche which cemented this view mentioned in the post above



if women were a thinking creature


is this ignorant attitude from cultural influences and the social norms or is he anti-woman on a though out personal level?

[JGH]

Anyone interested in Nietzsche's views on Women would benefit from reading Schopenhauer's essay 'On Women' which is freely available online and quite short, it should take only 25 minutes to read through. I'm sure you all know that Schopenhauer influenced Nietzsche to study philosophy, and I personally think that Nietzshce's opinions on women were sometimes very similar to those espoused by Schopenhauer in this essay. Some of the 'Maxims and Arrows' from the start of Twilight of the Idols (and most likely the other books, I don't have time to look through them all right now) appear to be echoes of Schopenhauer's 'On Women'.

As for Nietzsche the proto-Nazi; I used to think that this was an exageration, but a repeated reading of the chapter 'The Improvers of Mankind' (especially aphorism 4) from Twilight of the Idols persuaded me that some of his ideas are clearly eugenic and race-oriented, and potentially contributed to the foundations of Nazism.

[Holden Caulfield]

twilight is the next and second to last work of his i need to read, and up to now most of the 'nazi' stuff Nietzsche says can be explained away or attributed to the time,

i check Schopenhauer's essay, cheers

and welcome to the board comrade, good post