SHOW ME WHERE ITS WORKED

[Tkinter1]

Show me where pure communism has worked. not russian torqued communism or any of its sattelites. not reformed communism. and no tribes or small groups of people. please backup your answer with proof of no government and no dictator. and also be sure to compare there attrocites to US's and how there doing so much better. and dont leave anything out.

[Xvall]

It hasn't yet..
But niether has capitalism or socialism..
Why can't small groups count?
And what is your political alignment?

[RGacky3]

There are many examples of Communist countries with out dictators, even democratic communist countries. such as: hungry, poland, nigeruagua, vietnam, and socialist countries such as: Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, Finland. Then there are the Utopian socialist communes in: western china, eastern europe, Israel. HA I proved you wrong

[Nateddi]

Nothign was ideal, tkinker.

Can you please tell me your political and/or philosophical affiliation, if you have one? Be honest.

[RedRevolutionary87]

there are no examples of it because it has never been ATTEMPTED. they werent ready for it, but now the global economic gap is wider than ever, and the time has come. more and more people see a need for it, and soon it will come.

[Michael De Panama]

Since pure communism is intended to substitute global capitalism, the only place it could ever exist is the global economy itself. It's a worldwide union of the proletariat. It has never existed. If it had, I probably wouldn't be talking to you people.

[Hattori Hanzo]

SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE OF PURE CAPTIALISM THAT HAS WORKED

[lenin]

before any capitalists come in and say, "USA!", the USA isn't PURE capitalism. the closest thing to PURE capitalism was pinnochets chile.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Oh, and lenin- The USA hasn't worked

[Hattori Hanzo]

nope, read the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and you won't find this country

so far from the goal.....
pathetic.....

[thebigcom]

lets face it pure communism is based on the idea pf an upheaval by the people. it cannot be appled that easily by a govt. the odds of it ever being applied without tweaking is virtually non-existent

[Tkinter1]

If no economic system has worked perfect before, why do we complain about them, as if they should work without fault. If its designed by humans it has its problems

[Capitalist Fighter]

RGacky that is stupid. You honestly think that Poland and Hungary and communist? lol. Then why do they have free enterprise, free competition, social classes, private property, national elections. Come on you guys don't realise the difference between capitalism today and communism. Capitalism today is a mix of socialism and capitalism. That is why there is welfare and nationalisation of enterprises as well as free enterprise, commerical products and private businesses. Communism has been tried, has never worked.

[lenin]

poland and hungary are countries run by communist governments who realise that in todays world where the only superpwer is capitalist, they need free enteprise to survive. simple as that. there ideas haven't changed, they just think that is better to try and make more people middle class and to bridge the gap between rich and poor thorugh democratic means rather than trying to eliminate the bourgeosie through violent means.

[Capitalist Fighter]

isn't that contrary to the thought of Karl Marx, the founder of modern communism and Marxism, the school of thought they supposedly follow. Communism would also imply that there would be no "communist government" to run any country.

[libereco]

well, i don't believe in nation states. I believe in small communities...

When you formualted your question you already included your subjective idea of a need for a nation or large country, wich excludes what I consider a solution.

And in small groups the anarcho-communism I persue has often been practiced (it even worked). And has often been crushed.

(Edited by libereco at 2:45 pm on June 3, 2002)

[lenin]

CF, remember, pol pot also supposedly follwed marxism!!!! they beleive in marxism genrally, but there are many different routes that can be taken in order to bridge the gap between rich and poor.
pol pot belived in killing anyone with intelligence, lenin believed in destroying the bourgeosie with force and most modern communist parites (poland, hungary) beleive in regulated capitalism to ensure that prosperity is spread as equal as possible.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 11:06 pm on June 2, 2002
Oh, and lenin- The USA hasn't worked


#1 gdp, #1 TECHNOLOGY, #1 %OF CITIZENS WITH 4 YEAR DEGREES (24%), MOST STABLE ECONOMY, STRONGEST MILITARY, BEST STANDARD OF LIVING, MOST CONTRIBUTIONS TO TECHNOLOGY, INDUSTRY, AND MEDICINE IN THE 20TH CENTURY

Hattori, what exactly isn't working? Don't give me general answers about our heath care and public education. I know they both need work, but they are far from the worlds worst, and our health care is the worlds most spophistcated, the problem is access for everyone to get the best health care possible. As for education, it is mostly up to the students to take the reigns. We have the resources, the kids just need more discipline.

[Tkinter1]

Communists and socialists are just the poor jeaulus of the rich. They call the rich 'evil' becuase they aren't one of them. If any of you communists had money... would you honestly give it ALL up for the common good, I mean, you make it seem like the US is REALLY SERIOUSLY run by profietering glutons, and that there needs to be a revolution. I know there is corruption but, there will always be corruption. So stop complaining about capatilism as if it's really that bad. US has the perfect mix of socialism and capatilism, it helps those who are truley in need, and gives those that can the opportunity to make a good living.

[Jurhael]

There's no such thing as a pure anything.

Nothing "pure" has even been tried since there can only be some mixtures.

And do keep in mind that just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never will.

BTW, name me one car in 1482 or in Ancient Greece. Do you see what I'm getting yet?

[Guest]

Pure Communism has never worked they cry.

Gosh, might that have anything to do with the fact that we've bombed the crap out of it and thrown up embargos around it? Mayhap somehow related to the fact that the capitalist regimes have assasinated their leaders and unleashed their 'intelligence' agencies against it doing anything they could to destabalize it anywhere it has tried to establish itself in the world?

Hrmmmmm.

[Guest]

Pure communism has never worked they cry.

Could it be that pure communism can never exist. Can it be that the purity is defined as something without contamination or moral guilt. The two are oxymorons. You can not have something that is pure when the very substance is contaminated with corruption. What is pure about theft, oppression? Something which is depraved advocates dishonesty, and is in itself perverted can never be considered pure.

[Tkinter1]

If its never going to be perfect, then instead of starting over again with something never tested in large scale, why not reform a system that we know already works well

[Nateddi]

works well?

For whom?

[Tkinter1]

Nateddi, stop. just stop. I live well, all the people around me live will. MOST of the coutry lives well. so stop saying we in the unites states are in complete chaos. And if your gona ***** about nike sweat shop workers. Ill put you to lassaies faire. And dont think our country isnt looking into sweat shops and such. WE DONT APPROVE OF THEM. I am an american and I dont aprrove it. remeber other coutrys are for the most part out of our jursidiciton.

heh, you ***** if we do go in and you ***** if we dont.


sorry thew government doesnt work well for everyone, but neither does communism, and thats just the way it is.

[honest intellectual]

Tkinter1; due to gloalisation, there is less egregious inequality within the US. Rather than American exploiting American, the bosses look overseas for cheap labour and slave labour.

The fact is that the US companies are not trying to stop slave labour, and certainly not the USA government. Nike say they have "structures in place" to root out child labour in its factories, and yet it is rampant and clearly visible.


And dont think our country isnt looking into sweat shops and such. WE DONT APPROVE OF THEM.
How did you get from not looking into them to not approving of them? Seriously. Ok; you don't approve of sweatshop. Naturally. What are you doing to stop them? Fuck all. You're moral disagreement isn't going to change a thing and you know it. So just sit at your computer, disagreeing with it and I'm sure it will come tumbling down, coz that's how you go about "looking into it"


If its never going to be perfect, then instead of starting over again with something never tested in large scale, why not reform a system that we know already works well
Because capitalism is inherently flawed.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Capitalism is working great for me, and i believe those workers in indonesia are happy to go to those "sweatshops" anyway. They are not being forced there considering their governmment is doing nothing for their welfare. Is it the US fault that foreign labor markets are inexpensive? Hardly. The people working there make the standard wage in indonesia, its all relative.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Guest on 9:49 am on June 5, 2002
Pure Communism has never worked they cry.

Gosh, might that have anything to do with the fact that we've bombed the crap out of it and thrown up embargos around it? Mayhap somehow related to the fact that the capitalist regimes have assasinated their leaders and unleashed their 'intelligence' agencies against it doing anything they could to destabalize it anywhere it has tried to establish itself in the world?

Hrmmmmm.




LOL,LOL

Thats it, it was us being the aggressor the whole time, the soviets never attacked or spied on us, thats it. Jeez.

It is not the US's fault that communism doesn't work, IT IS COMMUNISM'S FAULT!!! iT ALWAYS LOOKS GREAT ON PAPER, BUT CAN NEVER BE EMPLOYEED IN REALITY. Its kind of funny, people kind of enjoy their freedom and controlling their own destiny and being able to speak and think how they want to. Funny, eh??

[Tkinter1]

You're moral disagreement isn't going to change a thing and you know it. So just sit at your computer, disagreeing with it and I'm sure it will come tumbling down, coz that's how you go about "looking into it"


quite the hipocrit. just switch morality with economic system!

[peaccenicked]

Human beings ending poverty.
It is funny how those who consider themselves rich, tell us it cannot be done. Who are they kidding on?
There is enough shelter and food in the world to go around. Why should America have totally excessive wealth. The capis are evil and they know it.

[Tkinter1]

"Because capitalism is inherently flawed. "


Please elaborate on that

[peaccenicked]

capitalism and imperialism are institutionalised poverty and racism. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and they can only justify it ultimately by racism.

[Tkinter1]

Wrong. The government trys to help the people get out of peverty; welfare, job programs, homless shelters soup kitchens. and you ever year of monopolys in the us?? There illegal. an example is the microsoft monopoly. They where broken up by our terrible government. Racism can be found everywhere. The US trys to end racism, but our first amendment gets in the way. The poor have the oppurtunity to get better, and so do the rich. they can choose poverty, or choose wealthiness. Communism on the other hand, well if you dont wanna do work there u dont have to becuase, someone else will pay for you until ytou feel like working again. Sounds like you wouldnt have ANY problems there......................

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 3:08 am on June 6, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Not only are you wrong but you are absurdly wrong
the government hands out crumbs to the poor and that has nothing to do with equal opportunities. No one choose poverty unless they are some religious zealot. Who told you all that crap about communism?

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 3:04 am on June 6, 2002
Wrong. The government trys to help the people get out of peverty; welfare, job programs, homless shelters soup kitchens. and you ever year of monopolys in the us?? There illegal. an example is the microsoft monopoly. They where broken up by our terrible government. Racism can be found everywhere. The US trys to end racism, but our first amendment gets in the way. The poor have the oppurtunity to get better, and so do the rich. they can choose poverty, or choose wealthiness. Communism on the other hand, well if you dont wanna do work there u dont have to becuase, someone else will pay for you until ytou feel like working again. Sounds like you wouldnt have ANY problems there......................

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 3:08 am on June 6, 2002)


What the hell is wrong with you. I don't see racism as a problem as a result of freedom of expression. I don't see minorities suffering from being picked on in white art. This has nothing to do with the first ammendment. If you are a racist land owner, especially in the south; there are quite a few; will you pay black people the same as whites? Will you hire people without considering their race? This has nothing to do with freedom of expression, this has everythign to do with concentrating wealth and power into private hands to make private decisions. If we have an anti-immigration right-winger living in california who starts their own business, will they freely hire latinos as they hire whites?

You misunderstand communism completely. You don't work, you don't eat, simple as that.

[Tkinter1]

"the government hands out crumbs to the poor and that has nothing to do with equal opportunities. " How untrue.

Not chose poverty. Laziness. If they had the determination they can get out. No ones stoping them but themesleves. they have to work their way up. Our gov cant do everything.

and nateddi:

"If you are a racist land owner, especially in the south; there are quite a few; will you pay black people the same as whites? Will you hire people without considering their race? "

Starting to simmer down now, with the end of segregation. thhere will always be racists.

Dont generalise the US as racists. Im really getting tired of you. I live here and am living fine and i know you must be going through a hard time other wise you wouldnt be complaining so much. Communism seems good now that your having a tough life. But if you ever wanted the freedom of choice and expression, you might want to look at other economic and political forms. OK?

I hope you feel better

[peaccenicked]

you are trying to tell me that determination will get poor people out of poverty. The poor should get organised and take what is rightfully theirs from the rich. So I agree.

[Tkinter1]

hm. yea your right that makes perfect sense and would would work perfectly. You know what you converted me to communism. lets go start the miliita and rally the lower class who wont follow us. the middle class who are fine with the way they live and wont follow us. and the rich WHo def wont follow us. What are we gona do know?? im waiting for the plan!!!

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Tkinter1


Starting to simmer down now, with the end of segregation. thhere will always be racists.

Dont generalise the US as racists. Im really getting tired of you. I live here and am living fine and i know you must be going through a hard time other wise you wouldnt be complaining so much. Communism seems good now that your having a tough life. But if you ever wanted the freedom of choice and expression, you might want to look at other economic and political forms. OK?

I hope you feel better


I live in the US, and I don't speculate americans as racists. When you allow private ownership of important means of production, you are allowing private decisions. Its obvious that a personal-issue driven individual will care less about who he hires as long as he can do so. Capitalism therefore allows these racist tendencies to proliferate. Furthermore, any little racist tendency a person may have will increase as well. Some may consider blacks to be dumber than whites, not Klansmen or neo-nazis, but many people unfortunately have that in the back of their minds. Anyway, I think Ive stated my point the first time; you cannot expect racism to dissapear when you allow private control over employment, etc.

And don't bring communism into this, it shows your argument is flawed and used as a last ditch effort to make your ideas seem more correct. This has nothing to do with "communism" and freedom of expression.

[James]

Capitalism is fine for the consumers, like in the U$A and the UK, but what about those that live in the poorer countries? That are "developed" by the west?

Capitalism is only benifited by the few, it exploits the mass.

Afghanistan and other countries are held back by capitalist coutries like ours. Yes the are HELD back. examples;

CIA TRAINED bin laden, and america helped the taliban get in control of afghanistan so they could follow their pipe dream. Of course to you this is probably helping the country, because you think backwards obviously.

Imperilism is the highest state of capitalism...do you think imperilism is good? if so your just as good as those wankers in the BNP.

capitalism is a system that allows an oligarchy (government by the few) or a plutocracy (government by the wealthy) to accumulate capital and thereby restrict the natural circulation of wealth through the economy. Invariably such a system allows for the diversion of wealth to non-productive purposes like decadent dissipation and conspicuous consumption or to counter-productive purposes like politics and war.

Capitalism, by its' unnatural constraint on the free flow of wealth, decreases the quality of life for most, while only increasing it for the few. Consider all the aspects of life which can be regarded as contributing to the quality of life -- housing, food, education, health, the arts, and social activities. Does capitalism actually improve any of these things? Or is the reality just the opposite -- capitalism invariably decreases the quality of housing, food, education, health, the arts, and social activities?

The West;

-use 7/8's of the worlds resources

-Eat 2/3's of the worlds grain

-Own 85% of worlds wealth

-Own 86% of worlds industry

The west have "mountains and "Lakes" of spare food

Obesity is a big problem in the West

80% of Americans are classed as Obeis

The west have a life expectancy around 70 years

The East;

Starvation is a major problem

around 50 years life expectancy

less than half are educated

5 million children die each year from diarohea

3/4's of the worlds population

800 million can't read

AND WE WONDER WHY WE GET PLANES FLOWN INTO OUR BIG TOWERS?

the richest fifth:

Consume 45% of all meat and fish, the poorest fifth 5%.
Consume 58% of total energy, the poorest fifth less than 4%.
Have 74% of all telephone lines, the poorest fifth 1.5%.
Consume 84% of all paper, the poorest fifth 1.1%.
Own 87% of the world’s vehicle fleet, the poorest fifth less than 1%.
Runaway growth in consumption in the past 50 years is putting strains on the environment never before seen.

The burning of fossil fuels has almost quintupled since 1950.
The consumption of fresh water has almost doubled since 1960.
The marine catch has increased fourfold.
Wood consumption, both for industry and for household fuel, is now 40% higher than it was 25 years ago.

Oh yeah, i noticed indonisia and sweat shops being mentioned before...

Nike workers get 4% of the retail price of the shoes they make, which is not enough to buy the laces. They consider themselves to be lucky though, they have jobs. The "booming, dynamic economic success" (the world banks words) has left more than 36 million indonesians without work. lets look at working conditions..."we stay till the order is full, no matter what the time. If you want to go to the toilet, you have to be lucky. If the supervisor says no, you shit in your pants...we are treated like animals because we have to work hard all the time without saying a word" They may work a "long shift" - 36 hours. In bolivia the workd bank has presurised the government to privertise the public water supply. The pwer was handed over to a private company, Bechtel. Granted a 40 year concession, the company immediately raised the price of water. In a country where the minimum wage is less than $100 a month, people faced increases in their water bills of $20 a month - more than the residents pay in the wealthy suburbs of washington. In Cochabamba (Bolivia's third city) even collecting rain water without a permit was now illegal.

James

[Guest]

Peacenicked stated:

'the government hands out crumbs to the poor and that has nothing to do with equal opportunities'.

I argue that no 'hand outs' should be given to anybody by the government. Giving 'hand outs' is not mandated by the Constitution of the United States of America. This is a function better left to private charitable organizations. After all, that is why they are suppose to exist and why they get huge tax breaks. Hand outs are disgusting and breed resentment and laziness. If somebody hands you a living there is no reason to improve. Your needs have fallen into your lap.
The governments responsibilty is to provide for the common defense, levy taxes, coin money, legislate responsibly, enforce and protect the laws. Nowhere does it say that they need to create a nanny state where everyones needs are met. Under a free democratic system most of the responsibility is left to the individual. When the majority of people abdicate their rights and refuse their responsibiltity encroachments occur. Eventually, all people living under a degrading system will be led down the slippery slope of communism as the government imposes a progressive income tax which endorses the theft from the wealthy to give to the poor. The looters of government will only feed the poor crumbs in order to hide the fact that they are looting. Their concern is not in helping the poor rather than helping themselves.
The problem with this is that eventually a stagnation will occur, everyone will end up poor, businesses will fail under heavy tax burdens. The politicians will have no body left to steal from. When the economy proceeds to this point the only thing left for them to do is make sure their selfish needs are met through terrorism and slavery. Next time that you are at a voting both think of this grim reality before you choose the more liberal candidate, who claims that he is serving the interest of the poor. They only want your freedom. They are smart enough to know that utopia will never exist. politicians use these promises to secure their power over the sheople.

[peaccenicked]

handouts. It is the rich who get the biggest handouts.
They should be taxed heavily. If money is your motive
for life and not human need then you should be criminalised. It is the behaviour of a spoiled brat.
An ignorant brat like you knows nothing about poverty.

[Guest]

"Anyway, I think Ive stated my point the first time; you cannot expect racism to dissapear when you allow private control over employment, etc. "


Somewhat true. But whats to stop racists from still feeling that the black man or white man is weaker or or inferior with communism? There is still always the lingering thought of racism. It has always and will always be there.

[Moskitto]

The USA doesn't have the #1 standard of living, the UN ranked Canada as the best place to live with Norway second.

[honest intellectual]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 2:40 am on June 6, 2002
You're moral disagreement isn't going to change a thing and you know it. So just sit at your computer, disagreeing with it and I'm sure it will come tumbling down, coz that's how you go about "looking into it"


quite the hipocrit. just switch morality with economic system!

An economic system will change things. Quietly disagreeing with something won't

[honest intellectual]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 2:45 am on June 6, 2002
"Because capitalism is inherently flawed. "


Please elaborate on that

Capitalism is a system in which each man strives for his own profit. He therefore puts himself before all others (economically speaking). This inevitably leads to some being richer than others (i.e. capitalism is based on an inequality. It can never be equal). This in turn leads inevitably to classes and the higher socio-economic class (the bourgeosie) obviously wants to hold onto its power and wealth and this of course is at the expense of the proletariat. The bourgeosie is always bigger than the proletariat because those at the top want more money, which means exploiting and competing with more people, and more being pushed down to the proletariat.
Capitalism inherently involves the oppresion of the man by the few.

[Tkinter1]

Thats is all true. But in general the proletariat, is happy in america. They have unions, beneifts( health care, most have insurance. The working class doesnt neccesarily mean the worse off class. In the US you have the choice whether you want to be the proletariat or the bourgeosie. One of which is obviously harder to obtain. Remeber, the US isnt pure capitalist. Socialistic reforms have been made to make the country more fair, and to help those in need. Examples: Welfare, social security,medicare, unemplyoment compensation, etc. Its not perfect, but it can only get better.

[Guest]

Ahh, a problem with Marxism. The ides that there are only two classes. Fact is in the United States the middle class makes up the greatest percentage of the population and spends the most. If you are seriously poor in this counrty then you are not trying hard enough and there is a good chance that you are lazy. There is plenty of wealth to go around.

[Guest]

Peacenicked,

I don't believe that I stated that I supported corporate welfare. The very idea of it is anti to free enterprise.

How would you know my current station or past station in life? The only thing that I have revealed on this site is my philosophy towards humanity, and my general disgust with the communist world view and those who follow it.

[kingbee]

if goverments wanted to help the poor, wouldnt they ship out tonnes of food to the hungry? wouldnt they cancel 3rd world debt? wouldnt they share technology? wouldnt they try and create a bit of peace instead of seeing war as a chance to sell off arms to the desperate?

it is not a perfect world at all- it is far from perfect. the gap between the rich and the poor is growing all the time. dont you think your beloved capitalism is doing something wrong?

[Guest]

1929 - A pure Communist working in the US would have totaly avoided a crash and the following deppresion which indirectly caused Hitlers rise to power.

"DO NOT QUESTION WHAT CAN BE CHANGED", THIS WILL ITSELF BEAR A MILLION QUESTIONS"
- Myself (Red Revolution)

[Tkinter1]

Sure but hitler hated communism so that would have fueld his anger.

[Tkinter1]

"if goverments wanted to help the poor, wouldnt they ship out tonnes of food to the hungry? wouldnt they cancel 3rd world debt? wouldnt they share technology?

Easier said than done. and sharing technology is dangerous in some cases

"wouldnt they try and create a bit of peace instead of seeing war as a chance to sell off arms to the desperate? "

Its not our fault factions ravage and kill. We are trying to help. and we don't sell arms to the desperate becuase we like to see war. we are trying to help our interests as well as theirs.

[marxistdisciple]

The reason the standard of living is high in the US is simple. Most of your clothes are made abroad, most of your goods are manufactured abroad. Most of your electronics are manufactured abroad. Most of your raw materials are bought at a pitance abroad (see www.maketradefair.com) The facts are in front of your eyes, easy to understand, and shouldn't tax your brain too much. Who has the most power in the US? Big business. It may seem really good for the people living in their nice suburban houses, but the only reason the standard of living has increased is because western countries are gradually, gradually exporting all their primary industry to eastern nations. It happens in the UK too. Read your clothing tags. The only way for capitalism to survive when the market drops is to get a) cheaper production costs B) cheaper labour. Under capitalism, when the capital goes down, the workers lose their jobs.

To address your other points about people being lazy...sure some people who claim of the welfare state are lazy and thieving as far as I am concerned. The reason they get that way however is taught to them at birth, and at school, and in every single day of their lives. If you want to get ahead, get more money. What's the easiest way to do that?

Sure some people can build up their lives and do well under capitalistism....well good for them. That doesn't change the facts. 40% of the world has little food. USA has too much food.
You think you are "helping?"
Do you know the ONLY singlular, minute, tiny thing that stops more and more help happening? Money. that's it, that capitalist god people.
The reason starving people don't get enough aid, is because it costs too much. What I want to know is who is the guy that decides how much a single human life is worth?

Think I'm overdramatising? you've all heard the stories of how US car firms decide recalls for their products based on how much the litigation will costs for the faults. How much can 200-300 people's families win in court after they die from a fuel tank exploding? Not as much as recalling the cars would cost.

That's what it boils down too. Under capitalism, human life, labour, success and political influence are all based on one figmental, approximation of worth: Money.

That's the point in it all. that's what people fight and work for....electronic numbers, they decide what we are worth to the counrty, and to the government.

[marxistdisciple]

To address the arms issue - it doesn't help anybody's interest to sell things that kill people. In case you didn't notice, that's what arms are designed for. You think the governments sell arms to countries expecting them to lock them away and never use them for their sole constructed purpose? That's almost as stupid as saying america's 6000 nukes (after they reduce the arsenal) are a "deteront." The fact is, war is good for the economy. Economy down? Sell some arms to Israel. If you understand that almost all world trade is about money, then you will understand every single decision the goverments make. The crazy thing is - during the gulf war, british companies were selling IRAQ parts to make the supergun! You think that's sain and logical? America sell Israel their arms and then try to stop them having a war!

That's it, i'm done :)

[Tkinter1]

No ones forcing the 'sweat shoppers' to work. Its not the US's fault there economy sucks.

Honestly i don't know why we give the israel's support. I guess it has something to do with the fact that israels helped us during the gulf war. support for support.

And im reading my shirt.... aeropostale made in USA. ALong with other companies. US doesnt RELY on international assembly lines. Its just cheap in other countries. Lassises faire unfourtunatly gets in the way of the government interfeering with the sweat shops. But no ones stoping them from working :0.

"That's what it boils down too. Under capitalism, human life, labour, success and political influence are all based on one figmental, approximation of worth"

and under socialism/communism????



"USA has too much food"

and???? Its not our fault our farms are productive.

"british companies were selling IRAQ parts to make the supergun! You think that's sain and logical? America sell Israel their arms and then try to stop them having a war! "

id like to see proof of that..




(Edited by Tkinter1 at 11:18 pm on June 11, 2002)

[marxistdisciple]

Personally I think the arms trade should be completely illegal. Once you stop selling arms it kinda stifles war a little. But I forgot, war is good for the economy...

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/sales_db.htm

Lets you search US arms export applications/deliveries to anywhere in the world. Yes they exported to India/Pakistan too....but not a for a few years now. the difference is that the oil bearing nations have something to offer the US. Figures are in the region of 1.8 Billion dollars in 1999-2000. It doesn't have up to date figures, I'll keep searching for those.

Have a play, see where else the US sells arms to. Oh the UK government recently made a statement about sales to pakistan/india...they havent actually "officially" stopped selling arms to them.

you could do an interesting experiment....compare figures of arms sales to the oil exports of those countries :) Interesting no? Try saudia arabia for size. Gosh, you'd think the US would treat them mean with their human rights record??

[marxistdisciple]

Oh, you can find proposed arms sales on the same site.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/index.html

[Capitalist Imperial]

Of course everything comes down to $$$, it is simple, $$$ is really just resources. We live in a world of limited resources but unlimited wants, this is thae basis of economics. If there was enough to go around for everyone, then there would be no "economics". So, we all have to work for it. Naturally, the harder, smarter workers get more resources, as it should be that way. I understand there are unfortunate cases of good people getting a bad hand in life, but that is probably about 1 in 1000. For the most part, those who take initiative and responsibility, and work hard, are rewarded. That is the best way, it allows for individual freedom and choice, while providing an atmosphere of innovation. Communism merely stifles initiative, while robbing freedom, and "from each according to ability to each according to need?" Try this: allocationg resources 1st to important party favorites and supporters, and then dispensing what is left very thinly over the workers, so they stand in line 4 hours for a loaf of bread!!! All while stifling freedom of speech, and limiting media and information dispersion to state controlled sources. What fun. No wonder videos of russian walking through red square were so uplifting. They all looked so happy!!

[deadpool 52]

Look at the poster boy of capiatlism, New York City, with the highest inequality ratings of all the world.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:38 am on June 12, 2002
I understand there are unfortunate cases of good people getting a bad hand in life, but that is probably about 1 in 1000.

Tell it to the populations of Indonesia and Haiti..

[j]

I do not think that there are not enough resources in the world to let the entire world live adequetly. This is the premise that those of us who lean to the left believe. We need a way to distribute the wealth of the world equally because we are not egotists. If we are egotists we will perish.

The world's poor are poor because of inadequate distribution of wealth. True there are people in this country that benefit from the government without working. But you need to realize what the mentality in the poor areas of the country is. It's all about working the system to your own advantage. I see this time and time again. Because you are poor and do not have the resources to succeed "the right way" (or are conditioned to believe so) then it becomes survival. How can I work this system? What is the best hustle? You can not disagree with this statement. If you do, visit your nearest ghetto and spend a year there. Hell, spend three months. Talk to people. Learn. The US economic system benefits a great number of people. However, that benefit is at the expense of a large number of people.

A large percentage of the homeless have mental illnesses. Under socialized medicine, this number would be reduced because people will get the care they need.

A large number of poor students will see a college education as attainable if it were paid for by the government.

Young kids would not have to worry about getting shot on the street if the wealth were equally distributed in this country. The guy with the gun would have no reason to rob.

But these are all "issues." They make great commentary on the web or in the paper. They are great because we hide them well. We put 'em all in the ghetto. We leave them all miles away in rural areas far away from the nice suburban utopia we have created.

These "issues" are just fodder for the media and public opinion right now. But if we don't do something now these issues will continue to rise until they bite us in the ass. The numbers of poor are growing. The numbers of rich are shrinking. Disturbance is the sad result.

j

[Tkinter1]

Deadpool,

"...New York City, with the highest inequality ratings of all the world. "

What organization took the international rating of inequality poll? Or are you just guessing that it has the highest? Facts before fiction!

[uth1984]

The reason that pure communism hasnt worked is an obsene reason not to work toward it. Capitalism worked in its place: people are better of than under feudalism. HGowever, this is not a reason to love capitalism. Come clean. The best thing about capitalism is that if it works for you, it works very well. However, it is based on exploitation -- that isnt Marxist doctrine, but a cold, hard fact. Whilst we reap the benifits, someone, somewhere is losing.

[uth1984]

A little note about sweatshop labour. It is bad. The workers are paid starvation wages, desperatly wanting to leave, but unable to. Yes, it is cheaper to use foreign labour because of currency difference etc, the wages paid are far less than is livable: In china, £6 is the lowest about on whichb one person can live. But Nike pays workers 37p per day. How does this benifit anyone??? How can people seek to justify this crime?
And dont think that this is just some kind of a bad side effect of capitalist "freedom," the exploitation of the many for the benifitof the rich IS the basis of capitalism.

[Guest]

In response to:

'Most of your raw materials are bought at a pitance abroad (see http://www.maketradefair.com) The facts are in front of your eyes, easy to understand, and shouldn't tax your brain too much.'

This has only been true since the mid 1900's. How do you explain the standard of the U.S. economy for the remainder of the time the United States existed? Until recently, we had been producing most of our resources and had remained entirely self sufficient. We could once again achieve this if we would refuse to do business with nations who hold your disgusting world view.

[deadpool 52]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:52 am on June 12, 2002
Deadpool,

"...New York City, with the highest inequality ratings of all the world. "

What organization took the international rating of inequality poll? Or are you just guessing that it has the highest? Facts before fiction!


Living standards, my brother. ;)