Let's just stop this, please...

[Sasafrás]

This is something I wrote & typed out a couple weeks ago when I was really frustrated with the community. Things calmed down a bit after that, so I didn't post it, but right now, it applies because of things I've recently seen in the Commie Club. I decided to post it here instead of the CC because here, everyone will see it.

I have taken note of a pattern of hypocrisy and double standards on Che-Lives. In this, I will mention them.

Lately (well, recently), in the elusive C.C., there has been a tremendous uproar about the presence of alleged “Anti-Semitism” - Stalinists, Nazis, on the entire board. It resembles a witch-hunt: people feel the need to turn others in, to ask, “Should we ban so-and-so?” simply because a comment was made that is not agreed with.

What exactly is Anti-Semitism, though? Is it hatred or hostility towards people of Semitic (which is not limited to Jewish, but it also includes Arab, Ethiopian, etc.) heritage or towards those who practice Judaism or both? No matter, it is discrimination based on characteristics and qualities that both can and cannot be controlled. But, if anti-Semitism is so wrong, why is it that it is perfectly fine for someone to express their hatred or dislike for Christian people and their religion? Why is it okay to say the words “fuck religion!”? People on the board are free to say “I hate Christianity” or “I hate Christians,” but as soon as someone says the most slightly negative comment about Jews, he/she is jumped upon as if a crime has been committed (Note: I don't condone anti-Semitism and I am not a Christian freak, because personally, I don't give a damn about any of them). And I also am baffled by the idea that it is regarded as the most base act to support the Jews in their plight to fully gain the lands of Israel/Palestine and we should always support the Palestinians (yet, a ‘leftist’ even has the audacity to agree with the idea that “Islam is a backward culture”).

Political thought, like culture or identity, is something that one gains through living his/her life. Being Black, being homosexual, having a sense of humor, being Buddhist, enjoying long walks on the beach, or being a vegan: those are all elements of identity and culture and we, as human beings should respect such qualities. Being socialist, capitalist, Marxist, Nazi, Stalinist, communist, fascist, anarchist, pacifist, or believing in any other “-ism” are also qualities (actions) that we should respect, whether or not we agree. In reality, we cannot ban people we disagree with from our lives; we can only work to make them realize the errors of their ways or present our own opinions. If someone makes a so-called “anti-Semitic” remark, we should correct it and try to make him/her aware of his/her fallacy – not completely eliminate the individual from our environment (as if it were a genocide of sorts). That is an unrealistic idea.

Bringing about revolution or reform (whichever you may prefer) cannot occur if we simply obliterate all dissenters. We need to teach & help change, not stifle.

Desiring to ban Stalinists (who are leftists just the same, even if they are closer to authoritarian and typically associated with anti-Semitism and the Holocaust), all capitalists, pro-Israelis, “anti-Semites,” etc. is obviously based on apprehension towards people who are different. It is comparable to homophobia or any other prejudices. The board was originally created for Che aficionados and leftists (Yes, I know) but then, right-wingers began to join, so they were restricted to a specific forum, which is fine. But now, everyone wants to ban everyone in sight.

We may not agree with everyone, but we can at least try to allow him/her to express his/her ideas and not resort to censorship. We say that censorship is a device of the oppressive “Machine” yet we try to silence those who are not exactly like us. If one thing is not allowed, then everything like it should not be allowed either. Or, more sensibly and logically, we could just end the double standards and hypocrisy by discontinuing the censorship and the attempts to expurgate.Basically, I'm trying to say that we should stop all this " _________ (Fill in the blank) needs to banned because he isn't the same kind of leftist that we are or he isn't like us at all" stuff. It's getting insane. If we do this, everyone may as well be banned.

[lenin]

in complete agreement!

[Shyne]

God, you people make me fucking sick. I thought I would be able to get along with you people, but Goddam, i fucking dont like you people. i especially dislike the ones that keep finding stupid ass conspiracy theories to justify their idiotic beliefs, and the ones who are so negative to everything done. you need to grow up or else youre gonna live your life on this message board lonely as hell and life is gonna pass you by.. but as my nigga pac said, "Life Goes On"

i enjoyed talking with many of you, nateddi, shayla, raztro, ftwftn, and a few others, and you guys are pretty cool.

[RedSovietCCCP]

I completely agree with you la rainbeaux. You make a very, very, good point!!!! Malt I think you should learn something from la rainbeaux

[Nateddi]

Well said, La Rainbeux, you get a red star http://revolucion42.homestead.com/files/star.gif


This is very stupid.

Look at the threads that Stalinists created in this forum?

Are they suited for socialism vs capitalism discussion?
NO!

They are suited for other discussion of communist theory and politics, they belong in their respectable forums.

The only problem is......... the stalinists are caged to here. So now we don't debate capitalism anymore because this forum is full of threads without any regard to capitalism simply because they cannot be dispersed to other forums.

Look at thelyceum.org. Its a neo-nazi forum, but everyone who disagrees with their ideology is free to debate them in many categories. The neo-nazis, despite how much I hate every one of them and their blatantly racist philosophy, they organize themselves well. Some believe in killing all blacks and jews, some believe in simply stopping immigration, some have leftist political beliefs, some are more capitalistic. No nazi hates each other for their beliefs. This is unfortunatly happening on this forum.

(Edited by Nateddi at 8:59 pm on June 1, 2002)

[lenin]

yes this is all true. the only reason i have been banned is on 'suspision' of racism???? i haven't actually said ONE racist comment!!!! yey i was still banned just because i happen to agree with some national bolshevik policies.
in saying that, it is malte's site, so ultimalty, it is up to him,

[Reuben]

Can I just explain what anti-semitism is.

Anti-semitsim was a term coined in the nineteenth century ( by somebody who was actually promoting the idea) to descirbe the new movement which attacked jews as an ethnic goroup..

As a result of the re-emergence of nationalism in the nineteenth century, there was a great emphaiss and desire for purity. Jews were seen as representing a weakness as they were not attached to any particular territory and in all countries were a minority.

The result was that, many secular assimilated jews, and even religiously christian jews came under attack.

Anti-semitism describes this movement that attacks ethnic jews which is still well alive as demonstrated by attacks on jews in europe regardless of religion or lack of it.

Finally, while the term antisemit implies all semitic groups it was coined to maena and does mean the movement described above. This is not to say anti-ethiopian racism is any better.

(Edited by Reuben at 9:26 pm on June 1, 2002)

[lenin]

reuben, do you not think that jews have to take a fair share of the blame for the emergence and re-emergence of anti-semitism?

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from lenin on 3:38 pm on June 1, 2002
reuben, do you not think that jews have to take a fair share of the blame for the emergence and re-emergence of anti-semitism?I didn't want the thread to become this. That was not a good comment to make right now. Please stop.

Um, the Jews' existence is the only way they can be blamed, and I believe that they have the right to exist; therefore, your remark was garbage.

[lenin]

thats fucking bullshit!!!! existence, the only way to be blamed, don't make me laugh!!!! the reason i said it was because reuben made out people just hate the jews for no reason. thats not true!!!!

[Reuben]

What a stupid question.

Apart from anyhing as anti-racists we realise that "The jews" like "The Blacks" or any other whole ethnic group are not "To blame " for anything.


Anti-semitism comes from antisemites. If there are areas where black people may be disproportionately responsible for crime would you say "The blacks are bringing racism on themselves"

[Nateddi]

We could hate all white people for the fact of Hitlers genocide in their name.

I don't hate a race because of something they have supposedly done (referring to Jews actions, not Hitler's holocaust). Hating based on race is ignorant and simple minded, just like most national socialists are on thelyceum.

[Reuben]

There is this kind of a belief that A RACIAL REACTION IS A NATURAL REACTON.

It is not! It is never natural to respond to an individual by making assertions about hwhole ethnic. Yet your omments imply that there is something essentially about the jews

[lenin]

this is fucking stupid!!!! your like americans when speaking about 9/11, you don't want to face up to why people hate you soo much!!!! i'm not necessarily saying i hate you so much, but there are people out there who do! and there not just mindless bigots either! leonid (yuri), as you might of guessed, doesn't perticualrly like jews and he has about a 150 IQ!!!! i'm playing devils advocate here, why do you thik jews aren't liked more than any other race/religion? do you think people back in the 19th century just woke up and said 'were going to hate jews today!. i don't think so.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from lenin on 3:55 pm on June 1, 2002
this is fucking stupid!!!! your like americans when speaking about 9/11, you don't want to face up to why people hate you soo much!!!! i'm not necessarily saying i hate you so much, but there are people out there who do! and there not just mindless bigots either! leonid (yuri), as you might of guessed, doesn't perticualrly like jews and he has about a 150 IQ!!!! i'm playing devils advocate here, why do you thik jews aren't liked more than any other race/religion? do you think people back in the 19th century just woke up and said 'were going to hate jews today!. i don't think so.Okay, I hate to do this, but, wanker, I think you need to get out of my thread. You're an idiot. Racism/Prejudice is not justifiable and you're trying to make it.

[Reuben]

Before I answer as I will with good sciological and historical reasoning I would like to flp it round and you something.


If hatred of a particular group relates to the way members of that group have behaved, then why was it that the pogroms carried out against the jews including many children, result in an extreme hatred of Russians.

A RACIAL REACTION IS NOT A NAURAL REACTION

[Nateddi]

Lenin, people are bigots.

it were the 1800s, slavery was legal for the most part in the US.

White supremacy was everywhere. Jews do not seem as white as aryans.

Anyone who hates a race of people simply for what they are is a bigot.

I only judge the individuals, not the race groups.

[Field Marshal]

Guys (some of you), calm the fuck down. Lenin wants to know what people say of jews that justify the hate towards them. I suggest that lenin reads Mein Kampf. That's a start.

There could be some nazi site with a list of things they don't like about jews and other ethnicities. Just look for it yourself.

[lenin]

news flash reuben!!!! jews in russia fucking HATE slavic russians!!!!
i don't give a fuck if a jew hates me, i can deal with it. do you know why, because i can look deeper and see the reasoning behind it. USSR persecuted jews, so i can accept the fact that many jews may hate me for being a soviet. thats the way the world is, like it or not.

[Edelweiss]

Mhhm, LaRainbeaux, nice post but I nearly entirely disagree with you. You are making this board much bigger than it is. It's not a state or society, it's just a leftist discussion forum. And there is no way I could ever respect Nazism or Stalinism. That's totally wrong tolerance. No we don't have to tolerate the fascists, we have to fight them. I'm fighting them offline and I couldn't look into a mirror if I would provide them a plattform here. If you want peace, love and harmony with the fascists you are just naive.
btw: I'm currently thinking about renaming this forum.

[Reuben]

Yes the USSR did persecute jws, yet the huge bulk of anti-semiitsism comes from people who were never persecuted by a jewish government r jewish individuals

[lenin]

so why do they hate jews then?

[Reuben]

Meanwhile there is no GENERAL hatred of russians because of the way some russians behaved towards jews.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Malte on 4:08 pm on June 1, 2002
Mhhm, LaRainbeaux, nice post but I nearly entirely disagree with you. You are making this board much bigger than it is. It's not a state or society, it's just a leftist discussion forum. And there is no way I could ever respect Nazism or Stalinism. That's totally wrong tolerance. No when don't have to tolerate the fascists, we have to fight them. I'm fighting them offline and I couldn't look into a mirror if I would provide them a plattform here. If you want peace, love and harmony with the fascists you are just naive.
btw: I'm currently thinking about renaming this forum.But, the community is important to many of us, and it's becoming annoying to see "Let's ban..." every few minutes. I'm not making the board out to be more important than it is, but like Nateddi said, on TheLyceum, they apparently allow people to post where they want and they seem to be more tolerant. It would be nice if we could try to do the same. I don't want peace, love, and harmony with the facists, I just want leftists to stop attacking them with "fuck yous" and at least hear them out and try to make decent comments to them without trying to ban them all the time. I mean, some of us do, but others seem incapable of it. Tolerate the facists, Stalinists, and Nazis and try to make them aware of how idiotic they are, don't try to kill them off. That's what I mean.

[Edelweiss]

There is no chance that Che-Lives every will turen into something like TheLyceum!!! No fucking way! That would be my worst nightmare!

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Malte on 4:20 pm on June 1, 2002
There is no chance that Che-Lives every will turen into something like TheLyceum!!! No fucking way! That would be my worst nightmare!No, honey! I didn't mean that! I still like the thought of Che-Lives being a leftist community, but I mean that I'd like for us to be a bit more accepting of dissenters. That's all! Don't take my statement out of context! ;)

[Reuben]

so tell why is there no general hatred of russians?

Anyway with regard to the reasons for hatred here.

theere are various facets to racial hatred in Britain. One aspect of racism is the racism against black people and Asian people. In this case it eminates from the fact that in the nineteenth and early twentieth century Britain had to characterize black and asian people in such a way that they could justify their subservience to us.

With regard to anti-semitism, as I explained earlier, in the nineteenth century their was the kind of Nationalist revolution which left jews an unwanted minority. universally throughout europe. If you look this attitude which stems from nationalism also applies to the Romani (gypsie) people.

Furthermore, as a minority who had been traditionally forced into money lending jews provided a good scapegoat for economic problems .
Finally, with the rise of communism, zas a result of all these facotrs I have described, the bourgoir esablishment could most easily discredit communism through associating it with jews.

This took the rform of a tsarist forgery known as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which outlined the jewish communist/capitalist conspiracy theory.

[Reuben]

btw, to deviate from my discussion with lenin, La Rainbeaux is completely right in what she wants to see on che-lives

[lenin]

who 'forced' the jews into being money lenders?
athough i appreciate you answering my qusetion, i think your wrong. hatred of jews runs a lot deeper than just nationalism. how do you explain there hatred amongst communists (kprf is the most anti-semitic party in russia!). they are hated by many different groups and it isn't just nationalism or the fact that they are an easy target.

[Reuben]

European governments made laws that stopped jews having jobs other than as money lenders

[Reuben]

with regard to why there is hate of jews amongst SO CALLED 'communists', i will answer.

In my post I outlined a number of means through which anti-semitism could become enfgrained in European or Russian ideas and and popular feeling. Often racial prejudices do not relate that closely to where they came from. For example many people who have racist opinions on blacks and asians do not advocate colonialism.


It is for this reason as well as the very simple fact that jews are identified as a non-russian goroup that they mak a good scapegoat should bad things happen.

Terrible things have happened to russia over the last ten years as you wll beaware. It is in this context that people look for simple scapegoats as has been demonstrated historically I.E. the rise of fascism in the 70s here in britain.

From what I have seen the anti-semitism also seems to go along side racism against other "non-russin' groups suchas those from the caucases

[Edelweiss]

So you really mean we should allow Nazis to post here, Reuben? I'm surprised!

[Reuben]

no definitely not . sorry. I just thought that la rainbeux was right about the constant "fuck offs" etc and personal hostilities. although I have no smpathy with Nazis Iwwas a bit embarassed that we could only respond to Josems post on Chavez with swearing. I have just read the whole of her post and , no it is a waste of resources trying to educate Nazis

(Edited by Reuben at 10:58 pm on June 1, 2002)

[Valkyrie]

LaRainbuex, your post was extremely eloquent. I wish I could write like that on my best day... But... you have to understand... those fascists can be extremely eloquent too. That is exactly how Hitler came into power. And we can never ever let that sort of thing happen again just as we can never allow slavery or racial genocide of any kind to happen again. Should they be given a platform? And yeah, this is just a forum. But in a way, it is much bigger than that. It IS literally free press, that can reach who knows how many countless of weak minded people. And to add that to all the other Fascist forums, is in effect just pushing their cause. The question is where should Free speech end. I believe in it just as ardently as anyone else, but I draw the line when it is based on an agenda of ignorant propoganda aimed at brainwashing the world towards a particular catastrophic end. Should we let them speak? NO, they shoud be silenced before any of their drivel escapes their mouths. We cannot afford the world to go that route again Not for the cause of free speech. Not for any reason.

I use to go into a Leftist forum on yahoo. There was a shit load of fascists from the National Alliance there. I would ask them to defend their position and they would immediately ban me for 5 or 10 minutes, (for some reason they were always in charge) and then allow me back. One time I came back in, just 5 minutes later and they were in the midst of serious planning the decimation of Mexicans, both illegal and legal, because as they claimed... "there were too many of them, they were taking over, and they were taking valuable jobs." Everyone knows illegal Mexicans are living in the most deplorabale conditions and are working jobs no "legal citizen" would take.

In my opinion, these fascists have way too much room to spew their dangerous shit and should be gagged before we inadvertently help to create something that we will no longer have the power to destroy.






(Edited by Paris at 11:12 pm on June 1, 2002)

[lenin]

again reuben, i disagree. there are MANY people in russia who just don't like jews and who have no ill feelings towards any other race. i'm not going to go into the reasons though because i will surely be branded an anti-semite.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Paris on 5:04 pm on June 1, 2002
... you have to understand... those fascists can be extremely eloquent too. That is exactly how Hitler came into power.True. Had this strange way of appealing to people's emotions. Strangely, I do that a tad too often :confused:

[RedSovietCCCP]

Malte, do you think I am a nazi? and if you do, explain why and use qoutes that I have used to you thinking I am a Nazi!!

[RedSovietCCCP]

Like la rainbeaux said lets stop this!!!!!!!

[Edelweiss]

No, I don't think you are a Nazi. But you are a hardcore Stalinist which has many common grounds with the Nazis.

[lenin]

if you look closely, i don't think you will find one quote of redsoviet's where he identifies himself as a stalinist? he is a hard line marxist (correct me if i'm wrong rs). he follows the manifesto rather than misconceptions about 'communism'. and as for me, well, i am a sort fo stalinist, but stalinism is still left wing! its ultimate goal still is a classless society and as this is a leftist forum, i think i should be allowed on all parts of the forum (exept maybe the cc). its up to you malte but i think you know it makes sense.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Why do you think I am a hard core stanlist because I point out the real issues of communism. I read a lot of marx and engels and just state what they state. I just point out peoples opinions on what they think communism should be versus what the facts are written in marx and engels writing. Thats all malte, thats all I do.

[Reuben]

Quote: from lenin on 11:28 pm on June 1, 2002
again reuben, i disagree. there are MANY people in russia who just don't like jews and who have no ill feelings towards any other race. i'm not going to go into the reasons though because i will surely be branded an anti-semite.


I have already outlined the many reasons why specific hatred of the jews has become engrained in popular ideologyy, just look at my earlier posts.

[lenin]

and you think these are the only reasons?
i don't hate all jews just like i don't hate all americans, but i still feel american has to ask the question why so many arabs and other countries hate them. just like i think jews need to ask the question, 'why have we always been hated'? and don't just dismiss anti-semitism as nationalism or blind hatred or whatever, look at the real reasons. the reasons you have given me would NOT drive a man to try an exterminate an entire race of people. i'm not saying jews caused hitler , but the reasons you gave were petty reasons why people might dislike jews. hitler was absolutly consumed with killing jews. maybe he was insane, but millions followed him, they can't all of been insane. the holocaust was a tradgedy, but you have to ask, why did it happen?

[Nateddi]

Quote: from lenin on 12:35 am on June 2, 2002
and you think these are the only reasons?
i don't hate all jews just like i don't hate all americans, but i still feel american has to ask the question why so many arabs and other countries hate them. just like i think jews need to ask the question, 'why have we always been hated'? and don't just dismiss anti-semitism as nationalism or blind hatred or whatever, look at the real reasons. the reasons you have given me would NOT drive a man to try an exterminate an entire race of people. i'm not saying jews caused hitler , but the reasons you gave were petty reasons why people might dislike jews. hitler was absolutly consumed with killing jews. maybe he was insane, but millions followed him, they can't all of been insane. the holocaust was a tradgedy, but you have to ask, why did it happen?

You bring up a good point. Perhaps something historical happened that caused the white race to hate the jews. Who knows. In either way, can we agree that Jews are not a threat to anyone?

Jews may or may not have caused problems in the past, however it is completely absurd to hate any group of people for what they are. If you hate people, don't hate by ethnicity, rather, dislike them for what they do. IE: I dislike nazis for supporting one race over another, I dislike capitalists for supporting a very inhumane system, I dislike the religious right for blurring the line between the separation of church and state.

I do not hate black people simply because they are black or for living a "black culture"; I do not hate white people simply because they are white and living a "white culture".

When you hate a person for their ethnicity, you degrade yourself into a narrow minded fool who looks for the quickest, most obvious, and almost always wrong solution to a problem.

[lenin]

jews are not a threat too anyone? that depends, if you mean every member of the jewish race is not a threat, then, no, they are not a threat. but a big percentage are, especially to palastinaians! IMO, the jewish religion is a dangerous one because it seems quite fascist! then, again, i've never read there bible or whatever. i'm just goin on zionism and some stuff i heard about them.
i agree with you though that you can't just hate someone for their ethniticity.

[Nateddi]

Although most members on this board are strong un-antisemetic (if thats a word), most as well are strongly anti-zionist; including myself.

I have watched very religious orthodox Rabbis speak out against zionism at the biggest pro-Palestinian rally in US history.

Remember, Karl Marx was a Jews. Not religiously ofcourse, but ethnically he was. If someone like Karl Marx, who isn't Jewish religiously, more importantly isn't zionist. I don't want people to discriminate and treat him as a second class citizen because of his ethnicity.

You have perfect reason to hate zionists. This board is pro-palestinian, because this board is against nationalism. Zionism is nationalism, zionism is racism. However when you are willing to discriminate against a whole race of people simply because you hate the actions of Ariel Sharone, than you are going too far and too hypocritical.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 12:03 am on June 2, 2002
Why do you think I am a hard core stanlist because I point out the real issues of communism. I read a lot of marx and engels and just state what they state. I just point out peoples opinions on what they think communism should be versus what the facts are written in marx and engels writing. Thats all malte, thats all I do.


ok, it's good to know that you now condemning Stalin ;)

[Thine Stalin]

Claiming that the jewish culture is not based upon money is racism itself.

Lying about a race is racism, and make a prejeduce that jews are not automatically greedy. Alot of jews are, jews have taught the world their culture. I don't hate every jew, I have jewish friends, I hate the stereotypical jew.

Condemning stalin's actions is a good thing, anyone who thinks killing people is good, is a terrible person, but stalin did it for a reason! And that is why stalin is a perfect role model, and was followed by every other communist leader pretty much.

[El Che]

I`ve said it before and ill say it again, all the rascist members you be banne, purged and witch hunted. Your philosophy is disgusting, aint-human and criminal, your arguments are a joke and I would`t tolerate you if they put a gun to my head. You represent the most basic, barbaric and primitive reactions of the human being and you are no "leftists". Who am I talking to? well see if the hat fits and if it does shuv in down your head. Everything has limits and my tolerance is not an exception.

[Reuben]

Quote: from lenin on 12:35 am on June 2, 2002
and you think these are the only reasons?
i don't hate all jews just like i don't hate all americans, but i still feel american has to ask the question why so many arabs and other countries hate them. just like i think jews need to ask the question, 'why have we always been hated'? and don't just dismiss anti-semitism as nationalism or blind hatred or whatever, look at the real reasons. the reasons you have given me would NOT drive a man to try an exterminate an entire race of people. i'm not saying jews caused hitler , but the reasons you gave were petty reasons why people might dislike jews. hitler was absolutly consumed with killing jews. maybe he was insane, but millions followed him, they can't all of been insane. the holocaust was a tradgedy, but you have to ask, why did it happen?


I have not simply dismissed anti-semitism as blind hatred. If you look I have already given a wide range of historical factors that led its developement.

With regard to what possessed people to wish to kill the jews.

Well do you not see Klan members who kill as many blacks as they can. Does this indicate somethnig terrible about blacks.

Anyway what possessed many to wish to kill. Well you must understand hew situation that Germany was in in the 1930s. the anger and hatrd in themselves were not fuelled by anti-semitism or a simple hatred of the jews. The anger was felt because of the way Germany had been humiliated and ordinary germans were suffering. However it was traditional anti-semitsm (which I have already outlined) and the status of the jews as an ethnic minority that allowed jthis anger wich stemmed from political and economic conditions to be channelled at the jewish people.

One specific examples is the treaty of Versailles. Many germans had fellt that they were winning the war and were betrayed at Versailles, a treaty that left Germans to suffer incrediby hard econmic ocnditions. IN the end jews were falsely scapegoated for this, even though they were not involved, simply because as a grou that "Won't quite german" it was easy for them to fit into the role of the traitors.

Dont get boggeed down in this specific example though.

[lenin]

reuben, your looking straight past my posts or i'm not making myself clear enough. as i said, hitler was to blame for te holocaust, but why did he single out jews? because they were an ethnic minoriy? because the were money lenders? because they cost germany the war? these were all factors but not real reaons for wanting the destruction of a race. if he blaed german jews, why did he kil polish, soviet and other jews?
i agree with thine stalin in that jewish culture is some how geered towards money and greed. this is why i disllike certain jews. this is not a reason for hating all jews (not that i do), but it seems jews, more than any other ethnic minority, are notorious capitalists. considering there are so few of them, they seem to occupy several important positions in the USA (financialy aswell as in the media). thas not conspiricy, thats fact.

[Reuben]

you know in most cases I would refuse to discuss anything with somebody wh o said that jews are notoriously capitalistic.

I am sick of having to educate idiots. Maybe you need to start learning the basics of jewish history.

I suggest a movie known as Fival goes west. Ill get back to yu later. at the moment I am pissed off

[Reuben]

you do realize that in the west jews are also disproportionately involved in communism. A massive proportion of thoose tried by McCarthy were jewish, hugely disproportionate.

I WILL respond on the issue of the destruction of a race

[Fabi]

hitler didnt single out jews....



(that's all i can say now... too tired... tired as in lack of sleep AND tired of you guys here... not all, of course---)

[lenin]

jews involved in communism? yes but for the wrong reasons. they are social comunists not economic ones. and as communism is an economic theroy, they are not communists!
also, many jewish 'communists' i know are actually capitalists economically! they claim to be communists to champion there jewish causes. i've met many of them at marxist meetings here in england! like in ukraine, there is a massive increase in communist party membersip, because the communist business men want USSR re-united so it is easier for them to trade! people supoprt 'communism' for many reasons that have nothing to do with the working class. like most jews!
the jews i've met in communist circles have all been bourgousie. and there are very few of them to be honest. most jews are blatantly capitalist. and not just capitalist in the sense that most american are. most americans aren't capitalist, they just accept it as the necessary form of economics, but most jews are actually capitalists.
Fabi, hitler did single out jews for significantly more than other races!!!! its a known fact. read any of hitlers writings including mein kampf and you'll see this.

[Fabi]

he didnt SINGLE OUT jews.

yes, he put much emphasis on the jews, though.

and is it someone's fault to be born part of the bourgousie? and it wouldnt help anyone if you just flushed all your money in the toilet, just to be poor and not 'middle-class', would it? ... ok, that was polemic... a little...

[lenin]

is it someones fault if there born bourgeoisie? no! but they can not be communists! the dictatorship of the prolateriat is about the prolateriat ruling OVER the borgeoisi to turn the tables. bourgeois 'communists' don't agree with this because they haven't experienced the oppresion of the prolateriat. they don't understand.

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin, nearly all communist leaders including lenin, Castro and Che Guevara grew up in middle/upper class families and did not suffer like proletarians. In fact Che was a doctor, Fidel a lawyer, that shows they wer part of the bourgeoisie.

[Fabi]

i dont agree with you on that.

it is your opinion, and i could (and probably did) express my opinion on the matter, but i suppose that doesnt really convince you.

it is not my fault that i am not a worker's kid... my grandparents were workers, my parents did hard studying and worked their asses off for us kids... they are teachers and they work till late at night. my mom's health is pretty shitty now, but they've achieved something...
i still think i can have certain socialist and communist viewpoints... there are certain forms of communism i cant support, but it doesnt mean i cant be some sort of a communismt... (which i dont claim to be...)

[Fabi]

i was refering to lenin's post in my other post up there.......

[lenin]

CF, being prolaterian or bourgeois isn't jus based on how much money you have or what job you have (BTW lenin was not middle class). it is also based on your state of mind. of course, a rich land owner is never going to think like a prolateriat, but someone like che did. he classed himself as prolateriat and he thought like a prolateriat. he hung around with working class kids too. just because you have a good job, doesn't make you bourgeoisis. leonid (yuri) was born prolateriat but went to university and ended up with a pretty high powered job. but he was still prolateriat. you can be a teacher, doctor, lawer etc and still be prolateriat. prolateriats sell there services to bourgeoise, and all of those above proffesions, sell there services. the bourgeosie is the ruling class in a capitalist society. they are usually the big land owners. if you control the economy, you control the country! in communism, the communist party controls the economy and the communist party is made up of prolateriat. so therefore, the prolateriat rules the country! this is how it works.

[Guest]

Don't feel like signing in, this is La Rain. You people really frustrate me. You're enough to make one want to kill himself, and you already know I'm pretty suicidal as it is. I'm staying away from here for a long while before I end up throwing my PC out of the damned window.

Have a great day.

[Reuben]

sorry for ruining your thread by getting wrapped up in a personal argument with a resident race scientist.

sorry comrade

[thebigcom]

People! this is a forum for open thought! the reason you see diisent is that not everyone is a hardcore communist. this site is for those who wish to learn more or express their opinions about the theories of some of the great leaders. why can't that just be seen, leave the dissenters to their own devices, they will fall when the time comes.

[guerrillaradio]

I urge Rainbeaux and everyone else calling for an end to the bannings to see Lenin's reply to my attempted rational and cordial debate:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...c=440&start=170 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=440&start=170)

I never thought I would see the day when a leftist called me Jewish as an insult...it is a sad day for me as well Rainbeaux.

[Thine Stalin]

I spit in your face guerrillaradio

[Fabi]

i dont spit in your face thine stalin.
i dont spit in your face guerrillaradio.
i dont spit in my own face.

now, isnt that something? gee, no, this post is not pointless at all, for isnt it written "I SPIT IN YOUR FACE GUERRILLARADIO" ???

;)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 8:11 pm on June 3, 2002
I spit in your face guerrillaradio


Wow...how mature. Not like a Stalinist to revert to physical violence and intimidation when reason is not on their side is it?? No, not at all...