ideas for communism

[lenin]

as me, thine stalin, redsovietcccp and SS have all made our views on how to implement communism clear (i even posted a shortened manifesto in 'theory'), why don't some of you liberal commies do the same.
my theory is, you don't because you like being in the posiiton that you can just have a go at anyones views, capitalist, stalinist etc without them having a go bck at you because your views aren't clear.
so then lets hear it de panama, el che, james, guerillaradio?

[STALINSOLDIERS]

to my comrades most of this people ideas are and is chaos i mean it well bring chaos....there confused.....unlike us we bring law and order to the society especially now in days how people are uncontrolled and well destroy society...so our ideas are well planned and will work...how about the anarchist..

[Xvall]

Hahaha! Oh, I'm sorry SS,
But seriously, for a person who can't even put his signature in propor gramatical english, you are in no position to talk about who's views are 'clear'. If your views are clear, then why the hell haven't you taken any action against capitalism, fascism, and the like? Maybe, because you are a capitalist and fascist! I would be happy to explain my views. Why don't you just concoct a few questions for us to answer, and post them. Unfortunately though, unlike you, our ideas might not consist of that 'stalinist essence' of shooting everyone who doesn't agree with you. Too bad.

[lenin]

how would the economy be run?
how would your government be 'democratic'?
what would the party structure be?
how would you deal with dissidents?
how would you handle social issues like:
death penalty
abortion
homosexuality
how 'free' would your press be?
how would you use the military?
how would your wage system work?
how would you divide your spending?
how would you seek international influence?
how would you deal with third world aid?
would you use propaganda?
how long (if at all) would the dictatorship of the prolateriat last?
how would your education be run, would you teach marx?

these are just a few to keep you busy. i'll try to think of some more.

[Nateddi]

how would the economy be run?
As a start, all the major means of production would be run under democratic centralism, with private ownership of smaller businesses

how would your government be 'democratic'?
Democratic centralism, not state-capitalism; once again, I am referring to early stages. The people will have control over the products coming out of the major state-owned industries

what would the party structure be?
Not quite sure what you mean by that. Everyone who is a member of the working class, regardless of race, ethnicity, or any other personal traits may join the party.

how would you deal with dissidents?
Depending on how powerful they are. Depending on how much influence they really have; for the most part Ill let them speak their minds

how would you handle social issues like:
death penalty
No death penalty for most crimes, only in extreme cases
abortion make this a local (State if speaking to americans) law. I would be pro-choice, however such an issue could be voted on democratically by the people.

homosexuality
Homosexuality is not a crime, homosexuals are not a threat to the rest of the public, they are not a thread to communism. Uncontrolable attraction toward the "wrong" sex does not deserve any sort of persecution

how 'free' would your press be?
see the dissandants section. I would also have a government newspaper be avaliable as well, although not forced upon to the people. Allow a free press.
how would you use the military?
Considering I live in the US, and we have no enemy; I would reduce the military drastically, only keep enough for basic national security, nothign more.

how would your wage system work?
Once again, in the early stages; impose a minimum wage of $12/h or so, and a maximum wage of $120,000/ year. These will come together with time.
how would you divide your spending?
Funnel the military money and salaries into health and human services
how would you seek international influence?
Help out any revolution, build friends with other countries
how would you deal with third world aid?
Don't increase it too much. With the fall of the major bourgeois in America, the third world would likely get rid of the puppet government and the money currently supplied would do much greater good than for what it is doing currently.
would you use propaganda?
I would have a state newspaper, but free press would be encouraged
how long (if at all) would the dictatorship of the prolateriat last?
Since I live in the US, likely not too long. Most dictatorships of the prole last long and forever because of great foreign influence from countries like the US. If we are no logner capitalist, there would be nobody holding us back.
how would your education be run, would you teach marx?
provide free education for everyone.

Yes we would teach marx. Perhaps a slight introduction at the middle school level on the basics of dialects, to more complicated philosophy classes in high schools.

I wouldn't make it manditory.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Ideas to revitalize commmunism?? LOL, LOL,LOL

[Xvall]

Okay... I'm on a tight schedule here so I can't go into it much, but I can later. Here are my answers for now.

would the economy be run?
- The Economy will be mainly controled by the people. But not in a capitalistic sort of way. People will be able to democraticaly vote what most of the funding will go to. (For example, production, education, health care). This will all be according to the needs of the people. Obviously, if the people feel that they are lacking in food, they will vote that more of the 'funding' that the country has should be spent on agricultural research. Eventually, there should be no need for money, because everything that the country needs will be provided by everyone and distributed to each other.

how would your government be 'democratic'?
- Democracy will always be in the country. If you knew anything about Marx, you would realize, that in the Manifesto itself, he calls for the proletariot to establish a classless democratic society. People will vote, and there can be a republic, but their power will be SEVERELY limited. If a represenative is not doing what the people like, they can be voted out, and another election can take place. When elections take place, people can chose 'None' as their representative. If enough people choose 'None', then there will be a new election, with brand new canidates. In addition, if the vote is really close,(about 48-52% or so) there may also be another election, after a period of though, so that the polls are not so close, and so there is not a large precent of the population that is dissatisfied.

what would the party structure be?
- I haven't put much thought into this, but I presume it will be a type of 'republic', with much citizen imput though. Rather than just haveing elected representatives take control of the country, the people shall have a large imput. And drastic things, (Such as war!) will actually be voted on! Rather than have people's families drafted to die on some forsaken rock for oil.

how would you deal with dissidents?
- Dissidents? I assume you were talking about people that disagree with the current system. They don't have to like the system, they can always move to some really big capitalist state, like the U$. They will still be allowed imput and be allowed to vote. Weather or not they like the 'government', as long as they are working citizens, they can enjoy the same rights and privelages as everyone else.

More Later..

[STALINSOLDIERS]

i wont lie here but nattedi ideas are pretty good....execpt for homos there a big no no...

[BOZG]

So what's the problem with homosexuals SS?

[lenin]

nateddi, not bad. we agree on certain issues.
for anyone who didn't see my theory post, i will answer the questions i gave above just in case.

economy: heavy industry, oil, coal, steel, iron, transport, communications, finance all in the hands of the state. industries that need fresh ideas, will have private enteprise with government control over minimum wage. private companies will have to lease land from government. no land ownership.
democacy: as we are talking in the early stages, i would use democratic centralim.
party structure: local workers council at the bottom elected by people. then local supreme soviet (for each city) again, elected by people. then central comitee. elected by supreme soviet members. then politburo. elected by central comitee. then general secratary. elected by people. communist party will be the only party and anyone can apply.
dissidents: "ideas ar more powerfu than guns, and you wouldn't let your enemies have guns would you?"-I.V.Stalin. say no more
abortion: illegal unless mother life is threatened
homosexuality: banned completely! anyone found out to be homosexual will be offered free mental health care and if they refuse, they will be fined.
death penalty: for enemies of the people, thieves, corrupt officials, drug dealers, child molestors and murderers.
free press: leftist opposition encouraged but no rightist opposition. all press owned by government. private press, means capitalism.
wage system: the further up your field you advance, the more material beneifts you get. car, house etc. and as soon as you die, everything is returned to state hands so there is no herditary privaleges. there will be minumim wage for each proffesion and wages will be given in the marxist theory of each according to his ability each according to his needs.
military: should recieve large percentage of gdp but not at the expense of more important things like health and education.
internatinal influence: military will intervene anywhere where communism is threatened or in any communist insurgency.
third world aid: greatly increase third world aid so countries can compete on an even basis. aid will be given in exchange for diplomatic support, and miltary presense (if needed).
propanda: yes, very important!
how long would dictatorship last: as long as it has too. maybe 50-75 years. in this time, gradually more tasks will be carried out by the workers.
education: abolishion of private schools. all education free and marxist teachings compulsery.

i think thats about it.

[lenin]

i'm with SS here! good points nateddi but you need to drop the homo freedom. why does everyone love homo's so much?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Just go capitalist

[RedSovietCCCP]

couldn't have said it better lenin!!!!!! Good job but on the gay issue I think it should be don't ask, don't tell. Death penalty issue is great and military issue is great. The whole thing is great. I'm going to have to print this out to get some ideas for school.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from lenin on 12:45 am on June 1, 2002
i'm with SS here! good points nateddi but you need to drop the homo freedom. why does everyone love homo's so much?


I don't *love* them. They are no better or worse than a straight person. Being gay isn't a choice. Gay people are physically attracted to men, as straight men are physicaly attracted to women. They are no more a threat than a straight person is.

Gay people don't choose to be gay, as capitalists choose to be capitalist, as murderers choose to kill.

Tell me how are they a threat to society or communism?

[STALINSOLDIERS]

in my society there would be more sickled then hammers.what i mean is that there would be more agreculturial armies then industrial...like about half of the populations well be working getting food...the rest should be working in building houses,making cloth, and for transportation ir would be like solar power or electrical i prefer solar...people working hard like under the sun shall work little hours like at least 5 or less depnding how hard it is......and the army well at first there should be alot untill many other countries become communist countries cause maybe the capitalist might attack...and people should get paid for there work but the money should only be used for clothing and food...apartments like rents,health,medical anything should be paid by the state...and everyone should get shots 2 times a year to get healthy its mandatory..everyone all immigrants can come to the country.....the news it should be free there wont be no lies....guns,bombs,and any other products that makes weapons should be banned from the public....chemical weapons,nuclear weapons, weapons of mass destruction should be banned in the country and trough out the world...and if i forgot some ill say more later..

[lenin]

nateddi, i know you don't love them, but many on this forum do.
i just don't like people gloryifing homosexuality. i don't mind the gay guys who don't act gay. i am sure that some of my friends are gay or bi, but its when you get it rammed down your throte constantly (no pun intended!).
i personally think guys that act ifemminate and gay are mentally ill. thats just my view. it is NOT naturl to go with someone of the same sex and when you REALLY think about it, its down right disgusting!
obvioulsy i said gays would be banned in my society, but i wouldn't investigate them. if they were gay behind closed doors, ok, i wouldn't agree with it, but i would let it go. but if it went mainstream and it went all, 'i'm gay and i'm proud', i'd damn sure do something about it. in western society its cool to be gay now. why?
gays are notorious enemies of communist regimes. several communsits have called homosexuality a fascist perversion. castro calls it a crime of the bourgeoisie.
gay guys don't chose to be gay? a bit like mentally ill people don't chose to be mentally ill, would you not agree?
anyway, like redsoviet says, don't ask, don't tell. if you are gay, keep it to yourself and behind closed doors.

[Xvall]

Damn homophobes, no wonder people hate communists so much! We don't 'glorify' homosexuals, we simply wish to give them the same chances and rights of any other person. We have no intention to 'convert' the world to homosexuality, we simply believe that everyone, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation, should be free to do as they please, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

[lenin]

i'd give homosexuals the same economic rights as anyone else. but i'd still make it illegal. only illegal publicly. in the privacy of your own home, well, i wouldn't like it and would still recommend mental treatment, but i would allow it, maybe.

[Xvall]

Hmm, You're pretty unsure for a person who supposedly knows where all his 'ideals' are located...

[lenin]

my personal ideals are that homosexuality is a bourgeois perversion and is disgusting. simple as that. but my government would be a populist one. and the view of the people would decide the party line on it. thats why i am undecided.

[Capitalist Fighter]

SS why do you hate rich people so much. Freak not everyone gets rich by exploiting others. Capitalists pay workers a fair wage, they deserve their rightful profits since with their own money they set up their own business, payed the corresponding taxes, payed for the materials to allow their practice to operate as well as keep the worker alive in suitable conditions, on top of that everything that happens in their business such as accidents and stuff they are liable to. They are in competition with others which makes products of higher quality and new ideas and thought of.
I doubt you are poor considering you have the internet in Miami, Florida. You would be middle/lower class strata so don't complain SS. Plus all communist leaders were rich. Furthermore in your Stalinist system you advocate the rule of the minority in favour of the majority. Meaning that people like Stalin for argument's sake who hold the nation's futuer in their hands can own more and earn more then the average citizen since they are part of the elite that you are in favour of ruling the country.

[lenin]

CF, thats fucking bullshit!!!! 'capitalists pay their workers a fair wage'???? that like me saying ALL capitalists exploit workers!!!! it generalising and fucking wrong!!!! i get paid 180 pounds ($300) a week for working fucking hard while my boss does FUCK ALL!!!! he just pays people around him shit wages to do all the hard work. and the only reason he got there was because his dad gave him the company. and don't start shit like saying 'your rich because you've got the internet'. we split the cost between 6 people to buy this computer so my parents could keep in contact with there family in russia. SS is in the same sort of financial situation as me. read his post in 'totalitarian communists' about when he got exploited by capitalist bastards!!!! does that mean all capitalists are bad? no, some work hard for there money and don't exploit people, but there is a large number who do exploit people. and have got where they are through manipulation, scheming or heriditary privalages.

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin i intended my previous post to highlight generalisations but in your reply you rightful pointed out that i myself made generalisations about capitalists. Yes some do exploit and yes some do not. But i don't want people to think to much like Marx and presume that every free enterprise be it small or large exploits people because it buys their labour power and then rakes in the profits through the surplus value theory.

[lenin]

ok then no problem. i don't think all free enteprise is bad. i think it is ESSENTIAL to certain industries. especially ones that need frsh ideas and competition. i don't mind small to medium sized enteprises. as long as there is no heriditary privaleges, i don't even mind big ones! (again, only for certain industries) as long as there are no hereditary privaleges.

[guerrillaradio]

how would the economy be run?

There would be some form of restriction, maybe in the form of a high income tax, and any companies with bad labour practices anywhere internationally would not be allowed. There would also be inspections for bad labour practices nationally, and compulsory trade unions.

how would your government be 'democratic'?

Well, let's see. People would vote. It may not be perfect, but it's the best of bad options. I think I might implement proportional representation, so that more parties get authority in how the country is run.

what would the party structure be?

A conventional one. Ministers for all relevant aspects (home, foreign, education etc), and proportional representation with representatives for each constituency.

how would you deal with dissidents?

Let them dissent. It's their right...

death penalty

Nope

abortion

Yep

homosexuality

Yep

how 'free' would your press be?

As free as a bird. There would be libel laws in place, so as long as every word they print is truthful, they are free from trial.

how would you use the military?

To fight wars, duh. However, the best efforts would be made to avoid war.

how would your wage system work?

There would be a high minimum wage (applying from 16+), but companies are free to pay as much as they like over that. Those that pay less than minimum will be in trouble with the police.

how would you divide your spending?

In the UK, I would set up an investigation into the failure of the NHS and seek out new managership for it, as I feel more funds is not what it needs. I would also set up a new state-run railway service and improve state skools.

how would you seek international influence?

I would attempt to build good relations with every nation, apart from those with poor human rights records. I would condemn the war on terror, and focus on the Israel/Palestine conflict instead.

how would you deal with third world aid?

I would give it...duh. I would also allow immigration.

would you use propaganda?

Define propaganda.

how long (if at all) would the dictatorship of the prolateriat last?

Not at all.

how would your education be run, would you teach marx?

The state would not publish books, hence they are less likely to be corrupted. Marx would be taught to those wishing to study philosophy or politics, obviously.

[lenin]

guerillaradio, you do realise there is hardly any difference between your ideals and the way england is run at the moment? maybe you should join the labour party.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Guerillaradio why don't you join the democratic party of the U.S. with all that libral bullshit??? Why say no to the death penalty and yes to abortion??? That doesn't really make sense does it??? Killing a unborn baby in a mothers womb isn't murder??? Sounds like your the mass murder guerillaradio!!!! Your so called government would crumble in less than a month!!!!! It has nothing to do with communism!!

[Ernest Everhard]

Lenin, do not confuse the personal with the historical, cause you have a shitty job that doesn't mean everyone else is miserable with their lot in life, even people who make less money than you. Rather than focus your energies on the envy that seems to be your motivation you should focus it on improving your personal situation.

[lenin]

ernest, i thought i made it pretty clear that i don't envy all capitalists in my last post. i was just pinting out that some of them are scum!!!! not all though.
anyway, can you go to my soviet economy thread. i want to ask you a question.

[honest intellectual]

There is no freedom in your society. No freedom for homosexuals, no freedom for anyone with different political views, no freedom for religions. Killing someone just because they believe in capitalism is insane! Even the US never did anything like that.
Besides, what is wrong with homosexuals? Unlike your "dissidents", they pose no threat to your cosy ruling cadre.


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the immediate ban of all bourgeois sports such as golf and yaughting
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WHAT??????????? This esentially Maoist belief that the bourgeoisie are evil per se is utterly ludicrous and discriminatory.



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anyone who wants to make descisons in running the country, will have to join the party. all aplicants will be screened to make sure they are not infultrators
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This concept is greviously flawed. It means that only people who have the same views as the party can have a say in running the country. this will lead to a party stacked with vile careerists, like under Stalin. not only that, but it means that no opposition will be tolerated. And yet you call it democratic? Democratic, but only for people who agree with the ruling cadre!

Socialism without freedom and without accountable, removable, transparent democracy will lead to the emergence of a ruling clique of the atheist, heterosexual, ideologically pure*, "proletarian" Stalinists. In other words, a ruling elite. It will lead to a society of haves and have-nots. There can never be classless society without freedom.

One more thing. If you ruthlessly eliminate the bourgeoisie and seize their power for a minority, you will not create a classless society. You will do what was done in nearly every revolution in history: making the bourgeoisie proletarian and the proletariat borgeois and thuuse perpetuating class society

*Just look at that phrase and tell me what 20th century ideology it calls to mind

[lenin]

homosexuals don't deserve the freedom!!!! homosexuality is a fascist perversion. mao, castro, stalin and che said so. they would be given economic equality though.
golf and yaughting, they should be banned!!!! they are remnants of the bourgeoisie!!!! they were banned in USSR and to my knowledge, nobody plays them anymore.
are you against the bourgeoisie and the prlateriat swapping places???? i am not!!!! they need to know what it is like to be oppressed. then when we've eliminated the bourgeosie (not necessarily killed them), we can have an equal society.
i wouldn't let other parties because they could get funds from other countries to finance propaganda schemes and manipulate the working class.
i would only let communists join the party because if they weren't commnists, they could be traitors.
there will be freedom in my sociey. freedom for the prolatriat. the only freedoms that will be taken away are bourgeois freedoms that didn't exist to the prolatriat anyway.
anywaym, time for you to post your views now. although the'll probobly be the same as the social democrats. some of you people should just join the democrats or the labour party.

[Ernest Everhard]

To quote the dude:

Well that's just like your opinion man.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Its biological. It can't be helped. There are just as many gays in communist regimes as anywhere else, they just keep their mouths shut, because as usual communist regimes oppress anything that would indicate freedom of choice and individuality or goes against "state interests".

[lenin]

biological???? i don't buy that personally. thats just my opinion on it.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from lenin on 4:47 pm on June 1, 2002
guerillaradio, you do realise there is hardly any difference between your ideals and the way england is run at the moment? maybe you should join the labour party.


I'll forgive you for the factual error of comparing my ideals to New Labour as you don't live in the UK, but still, I feel it is my duty to correct you on your assumption. The best way in which to do this is to compare my ideals with New Labour's policies.

how would the economy be run?

ME: "There would be some form of restriction, maybe in the form of a high income tax, and any companies with bad labour practices anywhere internationally would not be allowed. There would also be inspections for bad labour practices nationally, and compulsory trade unions."

LABOUR: They court big business, accepting big donations from Bernie Ecclestone and Richard "Dirty" Desmond amongst others and big schmoozy drinks parties for businessmen at Tony Blair's residence, 11 Downing Street. They have done nothing to combat bad labour practices, both nationally and internationally. And corporation income tax has barely changed. And let us not forget Chancellor Gordon Brown's privatisation of the Bank of England.

how would your government be 'democratic'?

ME: "Well, let's see. People would vote. It may not be perfect, but it's the best of bad options. I think I might implement proportional representation, so that more parties get authority in how the country is run."

LABOUR: So they are democratic, so what?? They have not brought in proportional representation, instead sticking with "first past the post", which suits them.

what would the party structure be?

ME: "A conventional one. Ministers for all relevant aspects (home, foreign, education etc), and proportional representation with representatives for each constituency."

LABOUR: This is one of the few areas where I agree with Labour, except for proportional representation of course.

how would you deal with dissidents?

ME: "Let them dissent. It's their right..."

LABOUR: Fortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, this a free country, where you are allowed to say whatever you like. i think this is a basic human right, which you can't dispute.

death penalty

ME: "Nope"

LABOUR: Well, technically speaking, you can still get hung in this country for high treason, but that happens very rarely.

abortion

ME: "Yep"

LABOUR: Great, we have abortion.

homosexuality

ME: "Yep"

LABOUR: Fortunately, they allow homosexuality. Fuck anyone who takes a fascist view of it.

how 'free' would your press be?

ME: "As free as a bird. There would be libel laws in place, so as long as every word they print is truthful, they are free from trial."

LABOUR: Well, actually, most of the country's newspapers are run by people directly affiliated with a main political party (or Rupert Murdoch, who is always looking for favours off Blair, so it amounts to the same thing), so our nation's press is not very free. Still, every paper is legally allowed to print what they like, except for libellous content.

how would you use the military?

ME: "To fight wars, duh. However, the best efforts would be made to avoid war."

LABOUR: in the five years that New Labour has been in office, British forces have been directly involved in conflicts in Iraq, Sierra Leone, the former Yugoslavia and of course Afghanistan. Blair is also pushing for British support of Bush's intended attack on Iraq, and the other "axis of evil" states. Hardly the stuff of a pacifist is it??

how would your wage system work?

ME: "There would be a high minimum wage (applying from 16+), but companies are free to pay as much as they like over that. Those that pay less than minimum will be in trouble with the police."

LABOUR: There is a low minimum wage of £3.60/hour, applying only to those of 21 or over. And the punishments for paying below are lax.

how would you divide your spending?

ME: "In the UK, I would set up an investigation into the failure of the NHS and seek out new managership for it, as I feel more funds is not what it needs. I would also set up a new state-run railway service and improve state skools."

LABOUR: No investigation into the NHS that i can see, just one blunder after another. The private/public railway service, Railtrack, is currently in administration. Labour has also managed to shut down countless grammar skools (state skools for more intelligent children) and has introduced student tuition fees and taken away student grants.

how would you seek international influence?

ME: "I would attempt to build good relations with every nation, apart from those with poor human rights records. I would condemn the war on terror, and focus on the Israel/Palestine conflict instead."

LABOUR: Built good relations with every nation, apart from those that Bush doesn't like. Blair has been scurrying around the world as Bush's emissary, persuading leaders in the Middle East that the War on Terror is crucial. British forces have been in Afghanistan, and given half a chance, would be in Iraq too. As for the Israel/Palestine conflict, the government have kept strangely schtum on it.

how would you deal with third world aid?

ME: "I would give it...duh. I would also allow immigration."

LABOUR: The majority of Third World Aid that they give goes in the form of arms. They sold an Air Traffic Control system to Tanzania, a nation where half the population can't drink clean water!! They refused to drop the Third World debt, and ignored countless Jubilee 2000 rallies outside the G8 summit in Birmingham in 1998. There are also tight laws on immigration.

how long (if at all) would the dictatorship of the prolateriat last?

ME: "Not at all."

LABOUR: The dictatorship is not by the proleteriat, it is run by big business. It's lasted five years so far...

how would your education be run, would you teach marx?

ME: "The state would not publish books, hence they are less likely to be corrupted. Marx would be taught to those wishing to study philosophy or politics, obviously."

LABOUR: There are state textbooks, but I have never used them myself...

[lenin]

to quickly correct you, i do live in england. i was born in russia but moved here when i was about 10. i go back to russia 3-4 times a year but my permannet residence is here in england. i do follow english politics quite closely and while i would always prefer a labour government than a fascist conservative government, i still feel labout are a bourgeis party and have similar views to you (in theory anyway).

[James]

Yes, but you see sailing a bout as a crime as well. That sums you up i suppose. Your an idiot. I go sailing on this crappy little lake (racing). Does that make me an evil capitalist? (rhetorical question my dear chap)

[James]

Also doesn't the bible (communist manifesto) state that everyone will be free to do as they will?

[lenin]

free to do as they will???? what freedom does the prolatriat have???? i don't mean the western prolatriat, becuase most western prolateriats have turned into petty bourgeisie, but the prolateriat of the third world!!!! they have no freedom!!!! they can't own land, they can't get an education, what can they do?
what you don't understand, is that after the revolution, the people who were oppressed will be free to do as they will, because they will be he one making the rules!!!!

[Nateddi]

I agree with you, infiltrating the third world with liberal freedoms in a communist government never seen may destabalize it. I suggest the country moves to them anyway, only at a slower pace.

[Hattori Hanzo]

yo, cappie fighter-
you wouldn't talk like that if you were enslaved *caughs* employed by the United Fruit Company

[Hattori Hanzo]

*sighs* some people are so confused
stop killing our comrdes and freedoms, Capitalist Imperial
and for all you Stalinists- you have to learn to accept that gays are gays, there always have been gays, there always will be, it's not a trend or a choice you can make!

[STALINSOLDIERS]

first not all homos are bad some are good people but those who has no respect shall be punished....and i hate rich people cause they exploit and they waste to many things instead of recyling them.....

[Guest]

Lenin,

Why do you fail to see that you can quit your miserable job. If you know that you are worth more money, which I highly doubt, then try to negotiate your terms with your current employer. If that fails, search for a new one, and await the day when you can tell that guy to shove it. Or just quit and free up your time to look for a new position. If you were living under the system that you support that would be virtually impossible to do, because freedom does not exist there. Your problem is that you think freedom is a ***** and are not capable of using it intelligently. Complaining will get you nowhere. Try action, that usually works for me.

[Guest]

This is in response to Nateddi who stated:

Considering I live in the US, and we have no enemy; I would reduce the military drastically, only keep enough for basic national security, nothign more.

Are we living in the same era? Have you read a newspaper in the last century? The statement made about the U.S. having no enemies is utter nonsense. What kind of government would even consider cutting the military at such a time? That would be a serious mistake no matter what kind of government was in power.
The U.S. does have enemies. The rest of the world envies our wealth and prosperity and much of it despises the freedoms we enjoy. The serious threat comes from Islamic Fundamentalists who would like another age of darkness. Rest assurred if we seriously go to war with these types, many in Europe would hope for the downfall of our system. Many others in might try to capitalize on such an event by sparking other conflicts. If you enjoy the rights guaranteed by our system, like the freedom to assemble on this bulletin board and engage in political conversation, the I suggest getting behind the war effort and demanding more than the pathetic display that we have seen thus far. We need tighter borders, more human intel within terrorist groups, massive exportations of people from hostile nations that fit certain profiles, more star wars systems, less diplomacy and coellition building. The use of such tactics like torturing Al Quida prisoners to extract vital information and assassination of world leaders who are hostile to the U.S. should not be overruled.
I fear that the reason our response has been so weak is because the past 8 years of exactly what you support has enabled terrorists to get a bargaining chip within our borders. Security was dumbed down, our borders became increasingly more porous and military forces were cut drastically. I suggest that instead of worrying about how everyone can be forced to become 'equal', you worry about a heavy civilian death toll within the U.S.

P.S. For all you bleeding hearts, there is a difference between collateral damage and civilians targeted directly for the purposes of terror.

[Fabi]

Quote: from lenin on 10:32 pm on June 2, 2002
free to do as they will???? what freedom does the prolatriat have???? i don't mean the western prolatriat, becuase most western prolateriats have turned into petty bourgeisie, but the prolateriat of the third world!!!!

that thing about the petty bourgeois taken out of context... mainly out of historical context....

here something on the topic by albert meltzer:

"Petty Bourgeois
Notwithstanding this preference for non-revolutionary unions, and condemnation of Anarchists for unions built from the bottom up, all Marxist-Leninists have a seemingly contradictory criticism of Anarchists, namely "they are petty bourgeois".

This leads them into another difficulty -- how can one reconcile the existence of anarcho-syndicalist unions with "petty-bourgeois" origins -- and how does one get over the fact that most Marxist-Leninists of today are professional ladies and gentlemen studying for or belonging to the conservative professions? The answer is usually given that because anarchism is "petty bourgeois" those embracing it "whatever their occupation or social origins" must also be "petty bourgeois"; and because Marxism is working class, its adherents must be working class "at least subjectively". This is a sociological absurdity, as if "working class" meant an ideological viewpoint. It is also a built-in escape clause.

Yet Marx was not such a fool as his followers. "Petty bourgeois" in his day did not mean a solicitor or an accountant, a factory manager, sociologist ,or anything of that sort (they were "bourgeois" -- the term was "petit" or small not "petty" that qualified the adjective -- and meant precisely that these were not the same as bourgeoisie). The small burgher was one who had less privileges, economically, than the wealthy but had some privileges by virtue of his craft. Anarchism, said Marx, was the movement of the artisan worker -- that is to say, the self-employed craftsman with some leisure to think and talk, not subject to factory hours and discipline, independently-minded and difficult to threaten, not backward like the peasantry. In England, these people tended to become Radicals, perhaps because the State was less oppressive and less obviously unnecessary. In many countries, however, they were much more extreme in their Radicalism and in the Swiss Jura the clockmakers' Anarchism prospered. It spread to Paris -- and the Paris Commune was, above all, a rising of the artisans who had been reduced to penury by Napoleon III and his war. As the capitalist technique spread throughout the world, the artisans were ruined and driven into the factories. It is these individual craftsmen entering industrialisation who became Anarchists, pointed out successive Marxists. They are not conditioned to factory discipline which produces good order, unlike a proletariat prepared to accept a leadership and a party, and to work for ever in the factory provided it comes under State control.

That this observation was true is seen by the crushing of the commune in Paris and in Spain and throughout the world, especially in places like Italy, Bulgaria, in the Jewish pale of settlement in Russia, and so on. It should be the task of an Anarchist union movement to seize the factories, but only in order to break down mass production and get back to craftsmanship. This is what Marx meant by a "petit bourgeois" outlook and the term having changed its meaning totally, the Marxists -- like believers accepting Holy Writ --misunderstood him totally.

"

source: http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/meltz...00.html#MARXIST (http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/meltzer/sp001500.html#MARXIST)



(Edited by Fabi at 1:55 pm on June 3, 2002)

[lenin]

guest, you 'higly doubt' i'm worth more money? how the fuck would you know? and i can't quit my job because i need the money and i can't get another job with mre pay. i'm not pissed that i don't get paid more (well i am but thats a different story), i'm piised because my boss earns more money than me for doing less simply because he was born into a rich family. he has done nothing his whole life. i've tried to get a different job, dosn't happen! i've tried to go for higher education, too expensive. unless you have a education in thsi country (UK) you can't really get a good paid job.
anyway, i have taken action. i'm saving money for when i go back to russia and i'm going to join the red army (everyone still calls it red army). then i'll get eduation in russia (because its free) and then i'll do whatever. sorted.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

i have never got hired by a job i only worked in contruction and still got paid little fucking capitalist wont give me a raise they want to use the money to whipe there asses with it........even the taco bell dog live better then the poor humans or middle class people its time to take all them down and get eqaulity...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from STALINSOLDIERS on 6:34 pm on June 3, 2002
i have never got hired by a job i only worked in contruction and still got paid little fucking capitalist wont give me a raise they want to use the money to whipe there asses with it........even the taco bell dog live better then the poor humans or middle class people its time to take all them down and get eqaulity...

This is the reason a few americans don't do well, they whine about others who have been successful, and instead of going after success themselves, they complain about how it is someone elses fault that they are not making enough money. Capitalism means responsibility and choosing your own destiny, not complaining about someone elses success and being mad because your boss or the government is not just giving you everything. Start your own business, SS

[Guest]

Quote: from STALINSOLDIERS on 6:34 pm on June 3, 2002
i have never got hired by a job i only worked in contruction and still got paid little fucking capitalist wont give me a raise they want to use the money to whipe there asses with it........even the taco bell dog live better then the poor humans or middle class people its time to take all them down and get eqaulity...



Ah envy...

[lenin]

CI, you haven't got a clue. you generalise as if everyone has equal oppurtunities! it costs money to set up a business! it costs money to get an education! everything worthwhile costs money! if you aren't born with money in USA, theres only two ways to get it, sports or crime. eliminate the 95% who are not good at sports and you are left with the reason the USA prison system is full! to be fair, thats me generalising as well. not all poor people will turn to crime, but there is a sizable majority that will.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Wrong, Lenin, it is you who have no clue. Have you ever been to the USA? Their are countless scholarships, government grants, and loans that people can use, regardless of their income, to pay for college. If you do good in public school, you can get a full scholarship to a good University. There are also loans available to start a small business. Often time the poorer people have a better chance at these opportunities. Even people like SS can get a job in construction, learn the trade, and then become their own contactor at minimal cost. There are millions of stories in this country of people who came here with nothing, and are now very successful. Why do you think we get 1000's of immigrants every day, don't you think over the last 100 years the immigrants would have stopped if there was no real opportunity here? You see, communists fail to realize that the USA is about opportunity, but it is also about working hard every day to be successful. What america teaches us is that if you dream it, you can do it. We've proven this over and over again. I see it every day. Stop making excuses and waiting for the government to take care of you and control your life, and choose your own desitny!!

[lenin]

i am chosing my own fucking destiny!

what about people living the bronx or whatever? people born into families of drug addicts who have no chance at all? they go to over-crowded public schools with metal detectors for guns. is that a fair chance? should they not be given the same right as some rich kid who choses private education? what about if you chose to take the american dream, then your business fails because you can't compete with the major corperations? you lose your business then you lose your home, without a home you can't get a job because you have no fixed address and all of a sudden, you have no hope. is that the american dream? or do they deserve it because they weren't competitive enough to succeed in business?
of course there are success stories in america. i'm not denying that. but there ar enot oppurtunities for EVERYONE, you must understand this.
you tell me to stop wanting the government to take care of me, when have i said this? what would you do if you were thrown into a shit-hole neibourhood with no qualifiactions and no money? i suppose you would work like crazy to get out of there right? and you would succeed because of the american dream yes? no! the american dream is real yes, but it only exists in the heads of the people who have achived it, or have the talent (which not everyone has) to achieve it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

My family never had a lot of $$$, my mother helped me with collge, California state university, $1000 per semester (not bad), I paid my own books, worked part time. Now I have my degree in business and am successful. Not from starting out as rich, but investing a little money and a lot of hard work!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Of coures our schools have problems, but it is up to the individual to overcome adversity. Schools with metal detectors and kids with guns are very infrequent, those schools are the exception, not the rule, our media just puts it under a microscope, and makes it seem bigger than it is. Besides, as we saw in germany that can happen anywhere. Many false ideas about the US are perpetuated by our own media. Even kids in bad neighborhoods can, and do, perform well in school. Drug addict babies are unfortunate, but we have social welfare in place to try and give them opportunity.

[lenin]

your family may not be super rich, but there is no way a lot of people could afford $1000 a year (certainly not me!). but anyway, like you say, i've never been to america and it is generalising for me too comment on the standard of living there. i get angry when americans jump to conclusions about russia so i'm going to stop jumping to conclusions about USA.

well done on the business degree by the way

[Capitalist Imperial]

Thank you, I appreciate that you try not to generalize. I will try not to generalize or make assuptions about russia or the former eastern block nations as well. Great debate and the resulting free-exchange of ideas is predicated by the notion that we use specific examples and documentable facts. Of course, generalizations do have their place (philosophy?).

[pce]

"homosexuals don't deserve the freedom!!!! homosexuality is a fascist perversion. mao, castro, stalin and che said so. they would be given economic equality though.
golf and yaughting, they should be banned!!!! they are remnants of the bourgeoisie!!!! "

HaHa. that's one of the funniest things i've ever heard. who gives a shit what mao, castro, stalin, and che said. they can be wrong too. just because they say something it doesn't mean it's right. stop brainwashing yourself.
HaHaHa. the second part's even funnier. che played golf. shouldn't that make it okay?

[lenin]

there is too many fucking homos on this site!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

lenin,

You stated:

'there ar enot oppurtunities for EVERYONE'.

You are right there are many people, such as yourself, who have poor attitudes and not enough wear with all to dig themselves out of a bad situation or notice opportunity when it crosses their path. They seem to be too busy complaining about the next guy and what he owns. When this happens to a person, it makes it hard for them to appreciate what they do have and continue to improve.

Let me tell you the secret of the success that many Americans already underestand.

Stop making excuses for your poor preformance at life and practice succeeding. Envision were you want to go and try to get there. You will end up a better person whatever the results.

[lenin]

guest, don't be an ignorant idiot. read my posts and you will see what i mean. i don't 'blame' other for the situation i am in, but the situation i am in is hardly my fault. i can't be fucked to explain why because i've done it before. what i have also explained plenty of time beofre is that i am doing something as we speak to get myself out of this shit situation and i hope i will succeed. you are blatanlty generalising. you feel that everyone whio is poor, deserves to be poor but it is not the case. not by a long way! they are a few undeserving lazy bums who just scrounge of the state and use there money to take drugs etc. i hate these people more than i hate bourgeoisie because they are keeping the prolateriat down even more. they give prolatriat a bad name. i've also said i've never been to america so i don't know what it is like, so i won't comment on your theory that everyone can achive the 'american dream'. i take it you are not prolaterian yourself so you shouldn't make blatant generalisations about people who may not have life better than you. i;m not a communist who wants everyone to earn the same regardless of work. i just want everyone to start out the same and then no-one can complain they haven't got enough money or whatever. you need to know the situation before you start jumping in an making accusations.

[El Che]

http://www.terra.es/personal/lfrojo/che1.jpg

Save golf lol

[Capitalist Fighter]

Interesting fact: According to the FBI files, Che was obsessed with golf and was about the only english word he knew. They also wrote in their files the supremely racist and stereotypical comment, "he is pretty smart for a latino".

[lenin]

che liked golf??? damn, i hate that game!!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Che was a dictator in training, luckily he never got the chance to oppress and exploit his constituency after rising to power under the false premise of freedom and equality like every other commie dictator has. CIA forever!!!