Celtic Tiger

[Bud Struggle]

Ireland did a turn around--from hate filled poverty stricken country to world class investment class nation.

They did it through low taxes and high investment rate. Crime is down and business is booming.

A Capitalist miracle. It took them five years to do what Cuba hasn't quite done in 50.

Capitalism works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger

[Demogorgon]

Not really. To say Ireland achieved some kind of capitalist miracle would be to miss some rather important points.

The first would be the rather basic one that tax rates are actually quite high. Corporation taxes are low of course and that is credited as the reason for a lot of the growth, but other taxes are fairly high.

Next to say it achieved this in five years is just silly. The process started in 1967 or 1968 (I forget which) when Universal education was finally properly implemented in Ireland. Much more on that to come. As for the particular economic policies that are being credited, they began in the eighties.

However such quibbles aside what has caused the Irish boom? Well the low corporation tax obviously helped as a lot of British companies moved their operations there to benefit, but it also means that a lot of the wealth being generated in Ireland is only paper wealth. Much of that actual money when it gets spent is spent in Britain as opposed to Ireland.

Yes, yes Demo, you will say, but you aren't denying that Ireland has made great progress, surely? No, I am not. Ireland has made incredible progress and there is a good reason why. Education. Education in Ireland used to be appalling. As I say until the late sixties unless you were middle class you were leaving school at twelve. A lot of my friends Grandparents can barely read as a result. The move towards proper education started the trend towards improvement, and in the eighties and nineties the Government really pushed for good education and spent very highly on it (doing a much better job there than the British Government) leaving Ireland with a really pretty good education system. There is the primary reason for your growth right there. Of course it wasn't the only reason. The Irish Government did plenty of spending on other social measures and of course has put forward high levels of Government Investment to boost the economy. Oh and the EU provided ridiculous levels of subsidies too, let's not forget.

So am I saying that the Celtic Tiger is indeed a good thing? Well here comes the "buts". Ireland may be booming economically, but everyone sure as hell ain't benefitting. Ireland is now the second most unequal country in the Western world after America and there is still a lot of poverty. Particularly in rural areas. And there is a strong feeling that the good times won't last forever. This boom will not last forever. Also we have to take a look at the effect of human happiness on the heavy degree of capitalism present. Ireland has either the most miserable or second most miserable population in the world according to the human happiness index. People are not benefitting psychologically from this. Indeed it seems that this is causing a general turn of depression (and not in the economic sense).

An interesting thing to note here is that when we talk about Ireland, we are actually talking about the Republic Of Ireland. Northern Ireland is economically, if you will pardon my French, a shithole. The abuse that the British Government has heaped upon that part of the country has damaged its economy pretty badly. GDP per capita is something like half of what it is in the Republic (and much lower than in the rest of Britain too). Combine that with the fact that Northern Ireland has more than a few other problems and you would think that people there would be far worse off in all meaningful ways than in the Republic. Well obviously there is a political split here. Paradoxically the left in Northern Ireland (largely Republican of course) hails the Republic as a land of milk and honey that the six counties should join immediately to share in the benefits. The right wing Unionists meanwhile play down the benefits of the Republic. But across political lines there is one striking thing. People are psychologically better off in the North than in the Republic. Why the hell should this be the case, the Republic is richer, more Democratic, not under the thumb of the British Government etc. But there you have it, the only thing that can be concluded is that the effects on people of Irelands increased inequalities and the increased pressure that has placed on working people has been so psychologically damaging that those in the North are now better off in that regard.

[Bud Struggle]

Not really. To say Ireland achieved some kind of capitalist miracle would be to miss some rather important points.

The first would be the rather basic one that tax rates are actually quite high. Corporation taxes are low of course and that is credited as the reason for a lot of the growth, but other taxes are fairly high.

graned--there is a bit of social welfarism (something I'm not totally against) in Ireland, so I can understand a healthy tax rate. But lor CORPORATE taxes are a key. there are no corporate taxes in reality--they are just pass alongs. A low corporate tax rate is a key of economic viability.


Next to say it achieved this in five years is just silly. The process started in 1967 or 1968 (I forget which) when Universal education was finally properly implemented in Ireland. Much more on that to come. As for the particular economic policies that are being credited, they began in the eighties.

The roots of the economic boom are far reaching I'll grant you that, but I must say that the boom wasn't something planned--it was just prudent Capitilistic economic policy.


However such quibbles aside what has caused the Irish boom? Well the low corporation tax obviously helped as a lot of British companies moved their operations there to benefit, but it also means that a lot of the wealth being generated in Ireland is only paper wealth. Much of that actual money when it gets spent is spent in Britain as opposed to Ireland.

I tend to disagree. My sister and brother-in -law have a house in Ireland and the land values have skyrocketed as well as the amount of consumer goods. Fron a rather backward country Ireland is a major consuming nation.


Yes, yes Demo, you will say, but you aren't denying that Ireland has made great progress, surely? No, I am not. Ireland has made incredible progress and there is a good reason why. Education. Education in Ireland used to be appalling. As I say until the late sixties unless you were middle class you were leaving school at twelve. A lot of my friends Grandparents can barely read as a result. The move towards proper education started the trend towards improvement, and in the eighties and nineties the Government really pushed for good education and spent very highly on it (doing a much better job there than the British Government) leaving Ireland with a really pretty good education system. There is the primary reason for your growth right there. Of course it wasn't the only reason. The Irish Government did plenty of spending on other social measures and of course has put forward high levels of Government Investment to boost the economy. Oh and the EU provided ridiculous levels of subsidies too, let's not forget.

I agree here. I was arguing with someone on this forum about he same thing. EDUCATION is the key to success. If people are educated they CREATE wealth. (And you can credit the Catholic Church with having a good hand in the creating the excellent educational system in Ireland.)

But over all Irland created both a productive society AND an excellent consumer society at the same time. And certainly, a hat tip to the EU.


So am I saying that the Celtic Tiger is indeed a good thing? Well here comes the "buts". Ireland may be booming economically, but everyone sure as hell ain't benefitting. Ireland is now the second most unequal country in the Western world after America and there is still a lot of poverty. Particularly in rural areas.

True not everyone is benefiting--but that is a matter of time. Over all the entire Irish economic life is better for the boom.


And there is a strong feeling that the good times won't last forever. This boom will not last forever. Also we have to take a look at the effect of human happiness on the heavy degree of capitalism present. Ireland has either the most miserable or second most miserable population in the world according to the human happiness index. People are not benefitting psychologically from this. Indeed it seems that this is causing a general turn of depression (and not in the economic sense).

And here your argument grows soft. (As the bard wrote: "Money Can't Buy Me Luv.")


An interesting thing to note here is that when we talk about Ireland, we are actually talking about the Republic Of Ireland. Northern Ireland is economically, if you will pardon my French, a shithole. The abuse that the British Government has heaped upon that part of the country has damaged its economy pretty badly. GDP per capita is something like half of what it is in the Republic (and much lower than in the rest of Britain too). Combine that with the fact that Northern Ireland has more than a few other problems and you would think that people there would be far worse off in all meaningful ways than in the Republic. Well obviously there is a political split here. Paradoxically the left in Northern Ireland (largely Republican of course) hails the Republic as a land of milk and honey that the six counties should join immediately to share in the benefits. The right wing Unionists meanwhile play down the benefits of the Republic. But across political lines there is one striking thing. People are psychologically better off in the North than in the Republic. Why the hell should this be the case, the Republic is richer, more Democratic, not under the thumb of the British Government etc. But there you have it, the only thing that can be concluded is that the effects on people of Irelands increased inequalities and the increased pressure that has placed on working people has been so psychologically damaging that those in the North are now better off in that regard.

Well written. I'm not in favor of a "British Ireland." One island one nation. Be that as it may--the psychological aspects of people not being happy with a free democratic government that produces lots of cash as opposed to doing things in a more traditional and less cash valued sense is something that I find very interesting. The Quality of Life issue is really at the forefront of what it means to be human.

What the Northern Irelanders have that the Irish Republicans are losing is religion. Somehow, a belief in God brings happiness to people. It isn't the equality life that matters. It isn't money or "alienation" that matters.

It's hope.

[Dros]

Of course capitalism works. The question is who does capitalism work for and what does said work entail for the masses of people.

No Marxist would ever deny that capitalism can develop the means for production. Indeed, if you read Marx, he supported the development of capitalism in semi-feudal regions of the world because it would develop the means of production. But socialism can do that as well, as shown by the USSR under Stalin.

The question is, is the work of capitalism in the best interests of the masses of people? And the answer to anyone with an inkling of how people in this world live (or die) is a resounding no.

[Demogorgon]

graned--there is a bit of social welfarism (something I'm not totally against) in Ireland, so I can understand a healthy tax rate. But lor CORPORATE taxes are a key. there are no corporate taxes in reality--they are just pass alongs. A low corporate tax rate is a key of economic viability. We will get into a tangent if I argue this too heavily, but I want to point out that Ireland's low Corporate tax rate only benefitted it because companies were keen to re-invest rather than take it as share dividends. The same situation will not play out everywhere. I have heard it argued that cutting corporation tax and raising tax on dividends to compensate would be more efficient economically as it would encourage more investment, and that might be true, but at any rate we are going wildly astray now. Back to the topic


The roots of the economic boom are far reaching I'll grant you that, but I must say that the boom wasn't something planned--it was just prudent Capitilistic economic policy.Well you have to be careful here. Ireland's boom is recent but its development is not. It was a backwards country in the sixties but perfectly modern in the eighties. Not neccessarilly very strong economically. People still found their best prospects were often to work in Britain, but don't credit the recent boom with modernisation because the later predates the former by a long shot.


I tend to disagree. My sister and brother-in -law have a house in Ireland and the land values have skyrocketed as well as the amount of consumer goods. Fron a rather backward country Ireland is a major consuming nation.Well herein lies the crux of the matter. Much of Ireland's current economic success relies on its property development. Housing booms don't last forever though. I was talking to a guy involved in construction over there a couple of days ago and he told e the economy would already be going down the shitter again if it weren't for the fact that by good fortune a lot of Eastern Europe joining the EU around the time they needed the cheap labour. But that is only going to keep things going another couple of years at best. The housing bubble is going to burst and then the IRish Government is going to have to make some tough decisions.


I agree here. I was arguing with someone on this forum about he same thing. EDUCATION is the key to success. If people are educated they CREATE wealth. (And you can credit the Catholic Church with having a good hand in the creating the excellent educational system in Ireland.)Not to knock Catholic education, I am a product of it myself, and very excellent it was too (even if I did turn out a Godless Commie) but the Church in Ireland has had a bit of a bad track record with regards to education in the past. Anyway that is by the by, we agree that Education has been a major factor here.


But over all Irland created both a productive society AND an excellent consumer society at the same time. And certainly, a hat tip to the EU.
Again there is a problem here in that it might be a great consumer society but the Irish rather like consuming over here because it is cheaper. A lot of money leaves Ireland that way. More seriously the consumerism is creating a debt problem which as we both know will have long term effects. I suspect that is also part of the problem with the human happiness factor we will shortly discuss.


True not everyone is benefiting--but that is a matter of time. Over all the entire Irish economic life is better for the boom.
I don't know about that. Historically real wages for most workers have a tendency to decline outside of boom periods. There is always a sense of triumphalism when an economy grows quickly with its supporters saing it will benefit everyone, not just those at the top, but it never lasts. Also rural Ireland is really going to take it in the nuts if the EU makes the policy decisions I suspect it will make over the next few years. That is going to have to be factored in.


And here your argument grows soft. (As the bard wrote: "Money Can't Buy Me Luv.")Well a lot of Communists are guilty, and I am more guilty than most here of foten resorting to rather clinical arguments. I argue that the form of socialism I advocate is more economically sound, will lead to more equality, more liberty, more autonomy, more democracy, less poverty etc and resort to various arguments to back it up. But ultimately human happiness is going to have to be taken into account. What is the point in having a prosperous society if we are miserable? Communism has no future unless it takes the bull by the horns and addresses the human happiness issue head on


Well written. I'm not in favor of a "British Ireland." One island one nation. Be that as it may--the psychological aspects of people not being happy with a free democratic government that produces lots of cash as opposed to doing things in a more traditional and less cash valued sense is something that I find very interesting. The Quality of Life issue is really at the forefront of what it means to be human.I wouldn't draw quite the same conclusion. I think Northern Ireland is better off because people are under less pressure. That's not to say tey are happy, just that they are less unhappy


What the Northern Irelanders have that the Irish Republicans are losing is religion. Somehow, a belief in God brings happiness to people. It isn't the equality life that matters. It isn't money or "alienation" that matters.

It's hope.
Well I don't know about that, Northern Ireland isn't particularly religious either. People associate with one side or another for the sake of tribal politics, but there's not much in the way of church attendance or that sort of thing these days. Also I obviously disagree with you there about alienation, that is the core case of much unhappiness I feel and religion can help fill the void but it doesn't fix it. It is like being ill and taking some medicine to alleviate the symptoms, it will make you feel better, but the illness won't go away. Religion is like that medicine and as we know medicines can have side effects.

Not that I am particularly anti-religious and usually scoff at the anti-theism on this board but I think religion has caused a fair bit of unhappiness in Northern Ireland. In terms of geography I am not very far away at all from Northern Ireland. Half an hours travel by plane. Three or four hours by car and ferry. Next door. My parents are of different religious backgrounds and when the married it was considered completely out of the ordinary, had they done it in Northern Ireland (at that time, things are better now) they would have put themselves at risk of attack by doing that.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Somehow, a belief in God brings happiness to people. These people disagree. :D http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_hap_net-lifestyle-happiness-net



Iceland
Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Australia
Ireland
Some of the most secular nations in the world top the list.

[PRC-UTE]

it's also worked in making houses too expensive for many, massive growth in anti social behaviour, driving up living costs, drugs consumption, and creating the biggest income gap between rich and poor in the western world.

I'm not saying that celtic tiger hasn't brought benefits- such as higher employment, lower emigration- but don't make it out to be all positive. and your comparison to Cuba is invalid since our comrades there are under a massive blockade and Ireland has enjoyed a close relationship with the rest of the English speaking world after the independence of the twenty six county state.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

it's also worked in making houses too expensive for many, massive growth in anti social behaviour, driving up living costs, drugs consumption, and creating the biggest income gap between rich and poor in the western world.

I'm not saying that celtic tiger hasn't brought benefits- such as higher employment, lower emigration- but don't make it out to be all positive. and your comparison to Cuba is invalid since our comrades there are under a massive blockade and Ireland has enjoyed a close relationship with the rest of the English speaking world after the independence of the twenty six county state.

Not to mention Ireland had more than a little help from the EU, whereas Cuba went through a giant shock when the Soviet Union collapsed. Tom isn't being completely honest with his "five year" attribution - which is understandable. He, like Dejavu and Pusher Robot, works effortlessly to supply ample (non-existing) evidence in favor of a system of exploitation. In reality, Ireland has been working to reform its economy since the 1960s. I suppose fifty-years of turnaround for a small nation is pretty good by capitalist standards. I find the Japanese Miracle and German industrialization process much more thrilling, and they occurred under pretense of social democracies. Twenty-five years, or fifty?

Cuba maintains some of the strongest living conditions in all of Latin America, despite the embargo, lack of resources, constant threat of hurricanes, and loss of the Soviet Union. But hey - that only proves capitalism works -- for the upper class.

[Bud Struggle]

Cuba maintains some of the strongest living conditions in all of Latin America, despite the embargo, lack of resources, constant threat of hurricanes, and loss of the Soviet Union. But hey - that only proves capitalism works -- for the upper class.


Cuba's three biggest success stories:

1. Good health care
2. Good educaional system
3. National soverenty

Cuba's three biggest failures:

1. Breakfast
2. Lunch
3. Dinner

[Bud Struggle]

These people disagree. :D http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_hap_net-lifestyle-happiness-net

Some of the most secular nations in the world top the list.

Same for Communism. :D

[Faux Real]

Cuba's three biggest failures:

1. Breakfast
2. Lunch
3. DinnerIf you consider 'failure' as depending on whether or not you have a Starbucks every few blocks.

[Bud Struggle]

We will get into a tangent if I argue this too heavily, but I want to point out that Ireland's low Corporate tax rate only benefitted it because companies were keen to re-invest rather than take it as share dividends. The same situation will not play out everywhere. I have heard it argued that cutting corporation tax and raising tax on dividends to compensate would be more efficient economically as it would encourage more investment, and that might be true, but at any rate we are going wildly astray now. Back to the topic

Another subject.



Well you have to be careful here. Ireland's boom is recent but its development is not. It was a backwards country in the sixties but perfectly modern in the eighties. Not neccessarilly very strong economically. People still found their best prospects were often to work in Britain, but don't credit the recent boom with modernisation because the later predates the former by a long shot.

I have no problem with that--you have to start somewhere, for a country with no natural resources besides for its people to go from perfectly backward to perfectly modern in 20 years is pretty amazing. And my point about NO natural resources is very apt. It wasn't gold or oil that made Ireland boom--it was the Irish--and Capitalism.



Well herein lies the crux of the matter. Much of Ireland's current economic success relies on its property development. Housing booms don't last forever though. I was talking to a guy involved in construction over there a couple of days ago and he told e the economy would already be going down the shitter again if it weren't for the fact that by good fortune a lot of Eastern Europe joining the EU around the time they needed the cheap labour. But that is only going to keep things going another couple of years at best. The housing bubble is going to burst and then the IRish Government is going to have to make some tough decisions.

Housing bubbles ALWAYS bust and then ALWAYS revive. That's just the way the world works. There's luck in the fall of Communism to bring Eastern workers into Ireland--but look at all the free money Cuba got from the Soviet Union and is now getting from Chavez. It doesn't hurt to be lucky, but then again--all that oil money flowing into the Middle east isn't improving the economies over there at all. They take--they spend.



Not to knock Catholic education, I am a product of it myself, and very excellent it was too (even if I did turn out a Godless Commie) but the Church in Ireland has had a bit of a bad track record with regards to education in the past. Anyway that is by the by, we agree that Education has been a major factor here.

Agreed.



Again there is a problem here in that it might be a great consumer society but the Irish rather like consuming over here because it is cheaper. A lot of money leaves Ireland that way. More seriously the consumerism is creating a debt problem which as we both know will have long term effects. I suspect that is also part of the problem with the human happiness factor we will shortly discuss.

I am NOT in favor of debt in general, bu it is a good stimulis for an economy. It produdes markets and secondary markets for interest. And the influx of large amount of unattached capital can produce vast amounts positive change very quickly.

And the happiness issue...



I don't know about that. Historically real wages for most workers have a tendency to decline outside of boom periods. There is always a sense of triumphalism when an economy grows quickly with its supporters saing it will benefit everyone, not just those at the top, but it never lasts.

It rises in jags to a peak--but it keeps going up. No economy is perfectly smooth.


Also rural Ireland is really going to take it in the nuts if the EU makes the policy decisions I suspect it will make over the next few years. That is going to have to be factored in.

On that I have no information.



Well a lot of Communists are guilty, and I am more guilty than most here of foten resorting to rather clinical arguments. I argue that the form of socialism I advocate is more economically sound, will lead to more equality, more liberty, more autonomy, more democracy, less poverty etc and resort to various arguments to back it up. But ultimately human happiness is going to have to be taken into account. What is the point in having a prosperous society if we are miserable? Communism has no future unless it takes the bull by the horns and addresses the human happiness issue head on.

Agreed. Capitalism takes on the issue and produces a VERY hollow model of happiness. And dream and wish society that's I'm not entirely sanguine with.



I wouldn't draw quite the same conclusion. I think Northern Ireland is better off because people are under less pressure. That's not to say tey are happy, just that they are less unhappy.

There is a lot to say for having no pressure, to be sure.


Well I don't know about that, Northern Ireland isn't particularly religious either. People associate with one side or another for the sake of tribal politics, but there's not much in the way of church attendance or that sort of thing these days.

The Irish don't die without their sacraments. True, it's just not religion, it's a cultural tie to the earth and with each other that will go missing with prosperity.


Also I obviously disagree with you there about alienation, that is the core case of much unhappiness I feel and religion can help fill the void but it doesn't fix it. It is like being ill and taking some medicine to alleviate the symptoms, it will make you feel better, but the illness won't go away. Religion is like that medicine and as we know medicines can have side effects.

Maybe. But my parents are from Communist Poland. I've been to the Soviet Union six times, Communist China two times, Cuba (to buy cigars a bunch of times) and I didn't see the love. I've been all over Communist Eastern Europe. I saw empty stores. I've been in Russian supermarkets that had no food. I saw the fear of the KGB. I mean REAL fear in good lovely people, for no reason.


Not that I am particularly anti-religious and usually scoff at the anti-theism on this board but I think religion has caused a fair bit of unhappiness in Northern Ireland. In terms of geography I am not very far away at all from Northern Ireland. Half an hours travel by plane. Three or four hours by car and ferry. Next door. My parents are of different religious backgrounds and when the married it was considered completely out of the ordinary, had they done it in Northern Ireland (at that time, things are better now) they would have put themselves at risk of attack by doing that.

You are a decent Commie, to be sure.

[Bud Struggle]

If you consider 'failure' as depending on whether or not you have a Starbucks every few blocks.

It's a great joke.

You Communists have to lighten up. :lol:

[Zurdito]

It's a great joke.

You Communists have to lighten up. :lol:

Yep, food shortages in Cuba due to your country's embargo is hilarious.

Some Catholic you are TomK.

btw what do you make of this:

Acts 4:34 - 5:11



"Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and the distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

"And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus. Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
"Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
"And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
"And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
"And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
"Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
"Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
"And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things."

[Bud Struggle]

Yep, starving Cubans due to your country's embargo is hilarious.

Some Catholic you are TomK.

btw what do you make of this:

Acts 4:34 - 5:11

There is no embargo of Cuba. Every country IN THE WORLD does business with Cuba with the exception of the USA. And even I buy my cigars there with no problem.

Cuba doesn't work. Really. Ever been there? Go there talk to the people, watch them get on their rafts to flee to the US. I feel sorry for them, not the junta that runs the place.

And to be honest--I would say the same for any of the other banana Republics that have the same sort of rulers.

[Phalanx]

Yep, food shortages in Cuba due to your country's embargo is hilarious.

Some Catholic you are TomK.

See, now this is what's wrong with you commies. You can never take responsibility for your actions. Most counties can feed themselves without the need of importing food. And the fact that Cuba can't highlights the fact that it's a miserable failure and needs change.

You know, I'm starting to agree with TomK. Cuba's similar to Ireland before the whole Celtic Tiger thing: a dismal economy, high unemployed or underemployed, and all right next to a world power.

Mark my words, Tom, when Raul's gone, we're gonna see the Sugar Cane Tiger (best name I could come up with :D).

[Zurdito]

There is no embargo of Cuba. Every country IN THE WORLD does business with Cuba with the exception of the USA.

therefore there is an embargo, isn't there, if the USA doesn't do business with it? You just contradicted yourself.



Cuba doesn't work. Really. Ever been there? Go there talk to the people, watch them get on their rafts to flee to the US. I feel sorry for them, not the junta that runs the place.


I didn't say it works. neither would Ireland if it was placed under an embargo by the US.

I was criticising your country for it's embargo. And if you feel sorry for them then campaign against your government placing their country under seige.


And to be honest--I would say the same for any of the other banana Republics that have the same sort of rulers

So would I, which is why I offer you my condolences for living under an election-fixing oil baron.

What do you have to say about the passages from Acts btw?

[Bud Struggle]

therefore there is an embargo, isn't there, if the USA doesn't do business with it? You just contradicted yourself.

One way or other a good Communist country shouldn't NEED to do business with Capitalist dogs like the United states.


I didn't say it works. neither would Ireland if it was placed under an embargo by the US.

Again, you place a lot of interest in what we Capitalist do. Please feel free to do off and make a workable economy on your own.


I was criticising your country for it's embargo. And if you feel sorry for them then campaign against your government placing their country under seige.

I am personally AGAINST the embargo.. as Phalanx said:
Mark my words, Tom, when Raul's gone, we're gonna see the Sugar Cane Tiger (best name I could come up with.)

Communist Cuba will be history in ten years.


So would I, which is why I offer you my condolences for living under an election-fixing oil baron.

So where the hell you from?


What do you have to say about the passages from Acts btw?

I'm Catholic not Baptist. I give to the poor, I don't have to be one of them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

it's also worked in making houses too expensive for many, massive growth in anti social behaviour, driving up living costs, drugs consumption, and creating the biggest income gap between rich and poor in the western world.

I'm not saying that celtic tiger hasn't brought benefits- such as higher employment, lower emigration- but don't make it out to be all positive. and your comparison to Cuba is invalid since our comrades there are under a massive blockade and Ireland has enjoyed a close relationship with the rest of the English speaking world after the independence of the twenty six county state.

Real estate in Alberta and British Columbia has gone way up in Canada. Already lots of people in the former can't find places to live even with their "good-paying" jobs. :(

[Zurdito]

One way or other a good Communist country shouldn't NEED to do business with Capitalist dogs like the United states.

What do you base that on?


Again, you place a lot of interest in what we Capitalist do. Please feel free to do off and make a workable economy on your own.

Doesn;t work like that. The idea of communism is for the working class to take control of the means of production. whilst the capitalists control global markets, they will sue them to starve any isolated place that attempts to create "socialism in one country". That's why I'm not a Castroist.

at the same time I don't think it's excusable that your government commits crimes against humanity by placing cuba under seige. I'll obviously criticise them for it.




I am personally AGAINST the embargo..

But ten mins ago you said there was no embargo!!!!!! now you're against i and always have been!!?!? Jesus christ this is like talking to a brick wall I give up, you're a clown.

[Bud Struggle]

What do you base that on? [quote]

Your post saying that the US doesn't do business with Cuba.

[quote]Doesn;t work like that. The idea of communism is for the working class to take control of the means of production. whilst the capitalists control global markets, they will sue them to starve any isolated place that attempts to create "socialism in one country". That's why I'm not a Castroist.

After the first sentence--I don't follow you.


at the same time I don't think it's excusable that your government commits crimes against humanity by placing cuba under seige. I'll obviously criticise them for it.

Under SEIGE???? Tey just don't do business.


mins ago you said there was no embargo!!!!!! now you're against i and always have been!!?!? Jesus christ this is like talking to a brick wall I give up, you're a clown.

There's a technical embargo--goods get through. I'm not in favor of the technicalities.

I'm boating there in a couple of weeks from my house in the Florida Keys.

Ever been there? I'll post pictures.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Ireland did a turn around--from hate filled poverty stricken country to world class investment class nation.

They did it through low taxes and high investment rate. Crime is down and business is booming.

A Capitalist miracle. It took them five years to do what Cuba hasn't quite done in 50.

Capitalism works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger
Crime is not down. And the economy is on the verge of collapse. Do some research before you post.

[Bud Struggle]

Crime is not down. And the economy is on the verge of collapse. Do some research before you post.

Ron.

We will bury you!

(OOps! we already have! :laugh:)

Dufus, this is what Communism looks like these days:

http://www.tothepointnews.com/content/view/3114/85/

This is what Communism is reduced to.

I am here to rebuild it.

Listen to me....

[Qwerty Dvorak]

What are you talking about... we have a chatter thread...

[luxemburg89]

"One island one nation"

What are your thoughts on Cyprus, Sicily, The Isle of Wight, The Isle of Man, Guensey, Jersey, Crete, Corfu, Hawaii, Manhatten Island, need I go on? Fuck it, why not include continents here in your assertion. A land-mass surrounded by water - do you think that North and South America should unite as one country? Although I expect your dream is one economically enslaved by the rich upper-classes of the good old USA(rse). We all dream of a world nation - but I wouldn't have thought you'd dream the same thing. Maybe you are one of us...wait no, no i

[Bud Struggle]

What are you talking about... we have a chatter thread...

You can't just be the only funny man here.

Give other people a chance for a joke now and then.

[luxemburg89]

You can't just be the only funny man here.

Give other people a chance for a joke now and then.

Your posts provide an opportunity for much mirth and hilarity. Please, keep up the good work!

Love and kisses, Lux.

[Bud Struggle]

Your posts provide an opportunity for much mirth and hilarity. Please, keep up the good work!

Love and kisses, Lux.

See, now you and I are building a RELATIONSHIP!

:lol:

[pusher robot]

[quote=TomK;1112157There's a technical embargo--goods get through. I'm not in favor of the technicalities.[/quote]

Tom, I think you (and many others) are just confusing an embargo, which legally prohibits U.S. companies from trading with Cuba (though not so much in food and medicine anymore, making this argument moot anyways), and a blockade, which physically blocks trade access into or out of Cuba.

There is an embargo.

There is not a blockade.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

(though not so much in food and medicine anymore, making this argument moot anyways

While we're on this subject, Cuba is very resourceful with its medical and food supplies. Out of all the countries in the world, it's the only one that recognizes and enforces a right to food.

[Bud Struggle]

While we're on this subject, Cuba is very resourceful with its medical and food supplies. Out of all the countries in the world, it's the only one that recognizes and enforces a right to food.

But no right to eat food in restaurants reserved for forigners and high Communist Party officials,

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Ireland did a turn around--from hate filled poverty stricken country to world class investment class nation.

They did it through low taxes and high investment rate. Crime is down and business is booming.

A Capitalist miracle. It took them five years to do what Cuba hasn't quite done in 50.

Capitalism works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger

BUMP.

TomK, have you been following the Celtic Tiger of late? Tut-tut. All I can say is that I hope, for your sake, that you aren't as short-sighted or misguided in the running of your own business as you are in everyone else's.

[Pogue]

Ireland is completely and utterly reliant on EU support, which financed most of its growth, and the low taxes and neo-liberal policies have led to it being hit incredebly badly by the recession.

Try telling the 100,000 people protesting in Dublin today against the economic crisis that capitalism in Ireland works. Do you not watch the news?

[trivas7]

No Marxist would ever deny that capitalism can develop the means for production. Indeed, if you read Marx, he supported the development of capitalism in semi-feudal regions of the world because it would develop the means of production. But socialism can do that as well, as shown by the USSR under Stalin.

If the choice is bt capitalism and Stalinism, what is it you think most people would choose?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Ireland is completely and utterly reliant on EU support, which financed most of its growth, and the low taxes and neo-liberal policies have led to it being hit incredebly badly by the recession.

Try telling the 100,000 people protesting in Dublin today against the economic crisis that capitalism in Ireland works. Do you not watch the news?
To be fair TomK lives in the US so it wouldn't be big news over there.

I disagree that Ireland is completely and utterly reliant on EU support. Yes, much of Ireland's growth has been funded by the EU in the past and we would not be anywhere near as advanced as we are now were it not for EU funding initiatives. But as our economy and infrastructure have developed our EU benefits have decreased and though we are still net beneficiaries, we are expected to turn contributors within a few years. So we are not as completely and utterly reliant on EU support as one might think. We are, however, still largely reliant on the EU itself and all the benefits of membership, but this is not necessarily a bad thing and our membership of the EU is not in jeopardy for the forseeable future.

[Dejavu]

Housing bubbles ALWAYS bust and then ALWAYS revive.But they don't necessarily revive to the same level of prosperity as before. You have to take into consideration how much real wealth is destroyed in this process, pretty much forever.These kinds business cycles are arbitrary and not a general feature of the market.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

But they don't necessarily revive to the same level of prosperity as before. You have to take into consideration how much real wealth is destroyed in this process, pretty much forever.These kinds business cycles are arbitrary and not a general feature of the market.
Then why do they happen pretty much everywhere.

[trivas7]

Dufus, this is what Communism looks like these days:

http://www.tothepointnews.com/content/view/3114/85/

Wow. Great video, Tom! Zdrastvoitye. :)

[RGacky3]

Its a mistake to talk about socialism/capitalism in terms of working or not working, because those are all relative, and depend on what your judging them by. You have to talk about them in terms of justification, are they justified.

[synthesis]

If the choice is bt capitalism and Stalinism, what is it you think most people would choose?

That's a little disingenuous. The comparison cannot be made between Stalin or Castro and the contemporary West - the more apt comparison would be between Stalin and the Czar or Castro and Batista. In pre-modern economies, there's usually little to no difference between "capitalism" and "socialism" in terms of authoritarianism.

[RGacky3]

If the choice is bt capitalism and Stalinism, what is it you think most people would choose?


What would you prefer, being buttraped by a gorrilla or a hippo? Also how is that relevent to waht Dros was saying, he was talking specifically about production.

[trivas7]

While we're on this subject, Cuba is very resourceful with its medical and food supplies. Out of all the countries in the world, it's the only one that recognizes and enforces a right to food.
What is a right to food, exactly? Are you saying that it is illegal in Cuba to starve to death?

[synthesis]

What is a right to food, exactly? Are you saying that it is illegal in Cuba to starve to death?

Well, here in the U.S., we have a right to a fair trial. Doesn't mean we always get it, though.

[trivas7]

Well, here in the U.S., we have a right to a fair trial. Doesn't mean we always get it, though.
True. I suppose the Cuban government passes whatever stupid laws it pleases also.

[RGacky3]

Well, here in the U.S., we have a right to a fair trial. Doesn't mean we always get it, though.

Your absolutely right. Look at the history of the US, in reality the US only follows its constitutional principles when its either convenient or its forced too, look at how long and how many times the US did'nt respect freedom of speach.

[synthesis]

True. I suppose the Cuban government passes whatever stupid laws it pleases also.

I don't follow - are you saying that it's stupid to at least have the right to a fair trial in writing, even if that right is regularly violated?

[RGacky3]

I don't follow - are you saying that it's stupid to at least have the right to a fair trial in writing, even if that right is regularly violated?

Good luck following, Trivas don't follow coherent discussions, not does he respond to any points.