Land and people and food and stuff

[jake williams]

About how much land does it take to feed an average adult? Like if I wanted to live on my own farm and feed myself, how big would it have to be?

[MarxSchmarx]

Like if I wanted to live on my own farm and feed myself, how big would it have to be?

It's quite hard to say. Almost certainly you are better off hunting and gathering.

For instance, you could probably survive on a quarter acre farm that grows only potatoes. Hell, you could probably make it on a few square meters if you're ready to eat nothing but bugs. But you would probably die of scurvy or something.

[jake williams]

I would like to have a reasonably healthy, enjoyable diet. Not extravagant, but with good nutrition, and variety, and treats sometimes. The general idea is I want to fit as many people as possible into a given area of land and have it be optimally sustainable. Or I want to know what it would be like if I wanted to feed myself, how much land it would take and how much work.

[thewoodcutter]

i dont think i could answer this question on my own, but a few questions anyway: what climate would you be working in? what are the details of the soil? would you consider raising livestock? probably some other questions that need asking but i cant think of them atm.

[Vanguard1917]

I would like to have a reasonably healthy, enjoyable diet. Not extravagant, but with good nutrition, and variety, and treats sometimes. The general idea is I want to fit as many people as possible into a given area of land and have it be optimally sustainable. Or I want to know what it would be like if I wanted to feed myself, how much land it would take and how much work.


How narcissistically selfish of you to want to retreat from society in such a way.

[Vanguard1917]

And no, before anyone even thinks of considering its possibility: if socialism cannot be built in one country, it certainly cannot be built in a little self-sufficient hippy farm. Capitalism thankfully helped get rid of all that parochial crap. Communism will eradicate it altogether through its creation of a truly unified global economy.

[jake williams]

I'm not talking about socialism or hermit-ness. I'm interested in the principle because I think it can help inform how we act vis-à-vis sustainability in general. I think it's an interesting question that's important and useful to know. It doesn't mean I'm ever going to do it.

[Vanguard1917]

In what way is considering the possibility of retreating into rural self-sufficiency an 'interesting question that's important and useful to know'?

[jake williams]

In what way is considering the possibility of retreating into rural self-sufficiency an 'interesting question that's important and useful to know'?
It informs me of the base level required to sustain myself, and hence plausibly what sort of a population could fit into my general area. If I use more land than that, I should know that. If the population is more or less than the area can properly sustain, I should know that. And hell, am I really a counterrevolutionary for thinking about it, are you really indicting me for thoughtcrime?

[Vanguard1917]

It's not 'thoughtcrime', but it is a waste of time. Mass industry and agriculture, increases in the productivity of labour through technological development, the socialisation of production and the global division of labour - that's how we will sustain ever more people on earth than ever before. Not through self-sufficiency and parochialism.

[bcbm]

It's not 'thoughtcrime', but it is a waste of time. Mass industry and agriculture, increases in the productivity of labour through technological development, the socialisation of production and the global division of labour - that's how we will sustain ever more people on earth than ever before. Not through self-sufficiency and parochialism.

He's not talking about sustaining "ever more people," he's talking about sustaining himself.

[Vanguard1917]

...which is what i referred to as 'narcissistically selfish'.

[bcbm]

If somebody wants to go live on their own, they shouldn't be allowed?

[Vanguard1917]

I didn't say that. But don't expect to receive from society if you refuse to contribute to it.

[thewoodcutter]

...increases in the productivity of labour through technological development, the socialisation of production and the global division of labour - that's how we will sustain ever more people on earth than ever before. Not through self-sufficiency...

so if, as a society, we are not self-sufficient food producers (which you seem to think is so awful) then who will be feeding us exactly?

[Vanguard1917]

By self-sufficiency i'm refering to small isolated and parochial communities trying to meet their own needs -as was the common nature of production under serfdom, for example. For socialist production to work, it has to be on an international scale.

[bcbm]

I didn't say that. But don't expect to receive from society if you refuse to contribute to it.

I don't think anyone is asking that, not that being a self-sufficient farmer necessarily entails not contributing anything.

[Bluetongue]

It depends - do you have money to pay for electricity and gasoline? If you have LOTS of money to invest, you can set up a house with solar and a greenhouse and such that's fairly maintainable, especially if you can trade your organic produce for stuff. It doesn't take much land, if you can invest in the right kind of setup.

But total isolation is almost impossible - where do you get medicine? On the other hand, if you just want to work on a farm and feel isolated, that's pretty easy. There are several farm communes near where I live, and all of the workers are happy and well fed. Then again, most of them have degrees in environmental science or eco-agronomy.

If you just want to grow enough food for yourself - my father did that on five acres and worked a full time blue collar job, with very old school technology. The only meat you can really have is chicken, assuming the chickens eat vegetable scraps and lay eggs.

Vanguard is *terrified* of anything biological or life oriented, ignore him. It threatens his future vision of living in concrete bunkers eating recycled shit.