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Red_or_Dead
30th March 2008, 17:04
I found this following story on one of other internet forums. Does anyone have any good arguments on it?

Here it is:



The Parable of the Fishing Net



Let's suppose, that a clever proletarian, Jane Bourgeois, weaves a new invention: a fishing net, out of her own hair in her spare time. It's not difficult to do, and only takes her a half-hour. It just so happens, due to a genetic mutation, that she was lucky enough to be born with hair that is uniquely strong and amazingly durable. Nobody else is lucky enough to have hair like hers. This is just an undeserved advantage she was born with.



And yet, I think even a socialist will, so far, agree that, if anything can ever be someone’s rightful property, this capital-----her new fishing net-----is properly Jane’s. (If not, I wonder what could ever belong properly to anyone, or how anyone could be entitled to anything.)



Now, suppose Jane, who lives on a liberal, laissez-faire capitalist sort of island, offers to lend or rent her wonderful new invention to a fisherman named Frank. That is, she gives permission to Frank to use the net to catch fish, in exchange for a share of the catch.



Suppose Frank can catch three times as much with the net as without it, and so he is willing to give Jane a third of the catch in exchange for the use of the net. Now Jane can eat for the rest of her life without working (suppose her hair is also quite durable), and Frank can effectively double his take-home catch. They are both better off. So Jane becomes a capitalist; and Frank becomes a laborer.



Now, a month later, along comes the social-democrat. This young egalitarian sees that all the old lady does for her living is simply to give permission for her property to be used in production, while Frank gets up before the sun and does all the hard work. Quite true.



But the socialist then concludes from this fact that Jane has not personally contributed to production, and that her share of the catch is something of which she is unjustly depriving Frank. The socialist says that Jane is just a parasite, a “bloodsucker,” and ought to be liquidated.



But that is false, and does not follow.



Now, it must be admitted that it is true that Frank might be better off, at least in the short run, if he liquidated the old lady and kept the net, and all the fish, for himself.



But that would hardly be right or just, would it?



Nor would it show that he would be better off if she'd never been born. He'd be worse off if she'd never been born. If it wasn’t for her and her original investment in the net, Frank would not have had all that extra fish all these years.



Now, Jane, the lucky capitalist, got rich from the arrangement. But she did not get rich at the expense of Frank, nor does she deprive him of anything. Jane was lucky to be born so clever, and with such great hair. But Frank was lucky too. Lucky to meet Jane.



Remember what Bakunin says:



"What is property, what is capital in their present form? For the capitalist and the property owner they mean the power and the right, guaranteed by the State, to live without working. And since neither property nor capital produces anything when not fertilized by labor---that means the power and the right to live by exploiting the work of someone else. The right to exploit the work of those who possess neither property nor capital and who thus are forced to sell their productive power to the lucky owners of both."



Well, okay. That's true. But it's very misleading. Let's examine Bakunin's claim again, this time substituting Jane and Frank's case:

What is the hair-net, what is capital? For the hair-net owner it means the power and the right, guaranteed by the State, to live without working. And since neither property nor capital produces anything when not fertilized by labor---that means the power and the right to live by exploiting the work of Frank. The right to exploit the work of Frank, who possesses no net of his own, and who thus is forced to sell his productive power to the lucky Jane.



Was Frank "forced" to sell his labor to Jane? Not if there was another net owner he could go to instead, or if he could have settled for less fish. Let's suppose for a minute that he could not survive on the amount he could catch without the net, and thus would starve to death unless he sold his labor to Jane for a share of the tripled catch, thus doubling his take, and allowing him to survive. Well, then, he's, in some sense, "forced" to sell his labor to somebody who has a net. But even then that isn't Jane's fault. It's still not her who "forces" him to sell his labor. I mean, it's not capitalists, or capitalism, or even socialism that ultimately "forces" us to work---it's Nature, the cruelest "system" of all. There's no economic or political system under which nobody ever has to work.



Bakunin makes it sound like Jane must be harming Frank. But that's not true.



Indeed, Bakunin, by his own twisted thinking, might as well complain that Jane is "forced" to obtain labor. Suppose, for example, that she's too old or frail to go out on the ocean and employ the net herself. (The most typical capitalist is an old lady, after all.) So why not just as well complain that Frank is "exploiting" Jane? Is he not using her, for his own purely selfish purposes, and reaping a "profit"---a gain---by doing so? Perhaps we could say they are both "exploiting" each other.



Clearly, they're both profiting by the arrangement.



But where's the social injustice?



Bakunin is angry that Jane can live without working. But knowing this fact does not show what Bakunin thinks it shows. Bakunin thinks it shows that Jane is ripping off Frank, that she's harming him, that she's depriving him of something that's rightfully his, or that she exists at his expense. Yet our example shows why none of these things are true. They don't follow.



Frank has to work, and Jane doesn't. So you could say that she is luckier than he is. But they're both lucky. They both gain. They're both better off. And Jane's great good luck does not in any way harm Frank, or benefit her at his expense. On the contrary, Jane's good luck profits Frank too, and that profit may even have come to him through no particular virtue of his own. He was lucky she picked him to deal with, rather than some other fisherman. Jane's lucky hair genes, on the other hand, might more easily be called a "virtue" of hers. (Aren't Einstein's brains a virtue of Einstein?)



Besides, everybody else on the island profits from Jane also. And certainly their profit is undeserved. Why? Because fish is cheaper on the market, now that the same amount of labor produces a greater supply of it. Certainly the other consumers on the island, who also have more fish to eat now, are reaping an unearned profit from Jane's lucky genes, and/or her invention of the net.



Capitalist Jane is enviable. She's lucky, and she gets to live without working. But she is not harming anybody, nor existing at anybody else's expense. On the contrary, the other people are lucky she came along. She's made them richer, not poorer.

Red_or_Dead
30th March 2008, 17:05
Damit, would one of the mods please correct the title (sotry to story)?

EDIT: Thanks

Prairie Fire
31st March 2008, 01:19
Fucking ridiculous anecdote on so many levels. I can't believe for a second that any cappie buys this shit.

Here's what is wrong with it:

1. They are using a bullshit comparison of a "fishing net made out of hair"
representing the Means of production. Now that is a ludacris, because that doesn't reflect the realities of the capitalists relation to the MOP. In the overwhelming majority of world circumstances, the capitalist does not
procure the means of production with their own labour, nor do they procure the materials to produce the MOP. In the real world (where people don't make nets out of hair :rolleyes:), when a capitalist builds a factory, they don't do it with a hammer and nails; they do it with exploited labour of another bourgoisie construction contractor, with construction materials harvested by exploited labour, and with capital that they either obtained from a venture capitalist (who exploited labour elsewhere,), or from their own fortunes or family fortunes, which are also obtained through exploitation of labour in some other endeavor.

The MOP was constructed by labourers, it is operated by labourers, and the capital needed to produce it in the first place was obtained by exploiting labour!

The capitalist, the bourgoisie, plays no role in the entire process, other than as a supervisor and parasite.

2. This ridiculous anecdote of the "Womyn with a net of hair, and the fisherman" is an absolutely revolting attempt to protray the bourgois- proletarian relationship as a fucking symbiotic relationship! One the one hand you have a womyn who, through "miraculous" metaphysical factors was "blessed" with the genetic traits (note the social-darwinism, which so often comes to the rescue of bourgois legitimization) to make nets out of her hair, and on the other hand you have the persyn, the proletarian, who does all the work and takes a cut. This is portrayed as harmony and mutual proseperity! Mutual prosperity!

As I've allready pointed out (see above point 1,), the means of production ,from the moment that the capital was produced (by exploiting labour,) to pay for it, from the moment the materials were procured to construct it (by exploiting labour), from the moment the means of production were built (by exploited labour), the capitalist had no contribution to the process at all.
The actuality of the bourgoisie-proletarian relationship in this scenario is about as symbiotic as a leech on a pigs ass: the pig produces blood, and the leech sucks it. The bourgois doesn't give anything back to the worker, they simply give a small portion of what the worker allready gathered by the sweat of their own brow!

3. The common, metaphsical line that the bourgoisie is somehow (Genetically :rolleyes:), more talented, more clever, more specially endowed by predetermined circumstances (which have nothing to do with the exploitation of labour, but rather are based on the merits of their own production :rolleyes:) than the proletariat, and therefore are entitled to the wealth that they exploit (because they took advantage of an economic situation, because they had the capital to produce the MOP, etc..)

Once again, see points 1 and 2. With or without the bourgoisie, it is labour that is capable of building the Means or production, harvesting the raw materials, operating the means of production, producing the products and the profits. So once again ask yourself, if the proletariat can do all of these things for themselves, what role does the Bourgoisie play in the process where they deserve ANY cut of the profits (let alone the lions share?) ?

4. Bullshit bourgois morality. "Yeah the fisherman could just take the womyns hair net, but that would be wrong"

Well forcing people to work for 1$ dollar a day is wrong too, but it's bourgois policy in many parts of the world. The bourgoisie uses morality in their justifications ,but never in practice, as they accumulate wealth. This is beynond hypocrisy into the realm of irrelevence, because Marxism/Socialism/Communism is not a moral philosophy but rather a scientific analysis of reality and condiditions; Morality doesn't come into it. Secondly, we've allready dispelled the idea that the bourgoisie has any valid claims to the MOP in the first place (see previous points).

5. Of all the the socialist ideologues, the author of this anecdote chooses to wrestle with Bakunin :rolleyes:. Defeating Bakunin theoretically is easy as pie (he himself was petty bourgois in ideological foundation). Try Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc next time.

6. Bullshit illusion of "free will" ("He could have gone somewhere else, and used another net").


Does this make sense? Can anyone add to this, or criticze?

Rosa Lichtenstein
31st March 2008, 01:22
It reads like one of those Robinsonaides Marx criticised for its abstract removal from the real world.

Raúl Duke
31st March 2008, 05:44
I basically agree with Raven (prairie fire) here.

Capitalists rarely if ever invent anything and even so the invention does not give anyone the "right" to exploit labor.

However, about the morality part, in a marxist view it's all relative and based on class. The capitalist would of course see certain things as right and other things as wrong and spin things off.(such as pulling off the illusion of making the labor relationship into a "mutual prosperity" symbiotic relationship. It could be mutual if the both made exactly the same amount of money but even so one must consider that Jane hasn't done anything past inventing this net and most capitalist don't do even that)

The worker will usually have a different and usually opposing view. However, there are elements/factors (cultural hegemony?) that keeps the worker's viewpoint's level of opposition small but when material conditions reach a certain point the opposition to the capitalist's view becomes even larger.

They both gain part is a little sketchy...maybe Frank is "lucky" that he's not unemployed but wouldn't he consider being "luckier" if he and his class owned the whole means of production for themselves (no parasites)?

The whole story sounds like a way for the capitalists to "feel good and sleep better" by putting some moralistic spin on it. They think that what they do is good and that they are necessary and naturally superior so to justify their class's existence.

However, imagine the story told from Frank's point of view and you'll see a whole new different view and a whole new different set of "morality/values."
Frank might be thinking, "well at least I'm not unemployed but that parasite Jane doesn't even work a single bit (regardless of what past achievements she's done) and she lives better than me. There's something wrong with that. I don't see how she's any different from me to deserve better."

In most cases you'll get a view point that's completely different and usually opposing (and the more class conscious the more opposing that viewpoint will be) than that of what Jane Bourgeoise has.

Red_or_Dead
31st March 2008, 15:38
Does this make sense? Can anyone add to this, or criticze?

Sure did, sure can.

First: one of my arguments was that Jane is not Bourgeois at all. At one point in this story she is actually a - I would call her petty bourgeois, not sure if its correct- when she made the net.

But even as the story progresses, she does not become bourgeois, since she doesnt actualy control a mean of production, she just owns a mean of labour. The subject of labour (fish that are not yet caught) dont actualy belong to anyone, or better, they belong to everyone that can catch them.

Second: about being mutualy benefitial. Frank has to work, Jane doesnt, yet she still gets a third of Franks catch. My argument was that the amount of labour and resources that Jane contributed can never macth to that of Franks, since Jane only made one net once, while Frank is continously working, and giving the fish to Jane.


The whole story sounds like a way for the capitalists to "feel good and sleep better" by putting some moralistic spin on it. They think that what they do is good and that they are necessary and naturally superior so to justify their class's existence.


I agree.

gilhyle
5th April 2008, 00:20
I read the parable as an attempt to suggest that there is no social injustice in what happens.

While capitalism creates huge injustice by the standards of justice it itself generates, that is not the point.

The parable seeks to suggest that capital can emerge as genetic disposition of unnaturally endowed indiividuals. While this is possible as an exception, it is not possible as generality. As a generality, capitalists have not procured capital by growing it from their bodies. Read the last section of Volume One of Capital on so called primitive accumulation. Capital emerges by way of the forceable separation of ....to use the example....fishermen and fisher women from their nets.

This separation is not to be resisted as such, since it is progressive in its time. But it ceases over time to be progressive and thus becomes objectionable. It becomes necessary to reunite living and dead labour under one unified guiding consciousness in order to extract the benefits of wealth for human consumption and to eliminate the waste of anarchic economic organisation when human consciousness is divided between the consciousness of the individual labourers and the individual capitalists.

Zurdito
5th April 2008, 00:32
if she makes a lot of wealth based on her durable hair, then her kids use that wealth to reproduce itself as capital does, etc., 5 generations down the line, when they own the whole island and everyone else is starving, is that still ok?

instead, why not just say: she offers her own hair to be used, because that way more fish are caught, and that way everyone, including her, gets more fish.

the diea that everyone is naturally some kind of huckster out for a quick buck above all else is the trouble with these "libertarians". bunch of crooks.

BIG BROTHER
5th April 2008, 00:35
What a pretty little story, its so cute you could put a ribbo on it. If only the real world was like that!

RedFlagComrade
5th April 2008, 23:23
-"From each according to their abilities.To each according to their needs."-Marx
-Both Jane and Frank have contributed according to their abilities-now they should divide the catch equally according to their needs
-if as Red/Dead suggests Frank needs twice Janes share to survive and Jane can live on her portion then this system does not in any way go against communism.
-also i think its unfair that you call Jane an old lady-in any decent society she could hardly be called upon to work for a living
-anyway its good to simplify but its over simplified.

RedFlagComrade
5th April 2008, 23:33
And yet, I think even a socialist will, so far, agree that, if anything can ever be someone’s rightful property, this capital-----her new fishing net-----is properly Jane’s. (If not, I wonder what could ever belong properly to anyone, or how anyone could be entitled to anything.)

-In a communist society Frank and Jane would own that net collectively and it would be put to its most effective use-not languishing in Janes house but catching fish on Franks boat and any catch would be distributed fairly.
-this isnt realistic-A real cappitalist would demand two thirds of the catch instead of 1 third

Red_or_Dead
5th April 2008, 23:45
-"From each according to their abilities.To each according to their needs."-Marx
-Both Jane and Frank have contributed according to their abilities-now they should divide the catch equally according to their needs


I agree. I guess it all comes down to that. Setting it to who gets how much of the catch is not the answer, that would fit a communist.


-this isnt realistic-A real cappitalist would demand two thirds of the catch instead of 1 third

More like 90%.

Kwisatz Haderach
6th April 2008, 01:43
Ok, let's see, this "Parable of the Fishing Net" has the following glaring problems:

1. People don't actually build fishing nets out of their hair. In the real world, means of production don't come from body parts. This whole scenario is about as credible as a parable about a capitalist pulling an oil refinery out of his ass. "Hey, if he pulled it out of his own ass, surely he must be allowed property rights over it!" Uh, yeah, maybe, except, you know, that never really happens.

2. Speaking of body parts, the relationship of a person to her own body is not necessarily one of property. The notion of "property" implies the right of exclusive control over an object as well as the right to sell or rent that object. A socialist would say that a person has a right of exclusive control over her body, of course, but not necessarily the right to sell or rent body parts.

3. If you cannot rent your body parts to other people, then the woman cannot rent her hair to the fisherman. She can use it to fish for herself, she can give it away or she can use it in common with someone else, but she cannot rent it.

4. The relationship between her and the fisherman is not mutually beneficial because the existence of the net does not depend upon the woman being paid a rent. The author of the parable observes that society in general is better off with the net than without it. Every Marxist knows this - it's called the development of productive forces. The author of the parable wants you to believe that your only choices are to use the net in a capitalist manner or not to use it at all, and then he correctly points out that the capitalist option is the better one of the two. But that is a false dichotomy. The net can be used in a socialist manner: The fisherman can pay the woman a certain fixed sum of money (or fish) for the net, and then he can keep all the fish he catches with the net. This way, the woman receives a fixed reward for producing the net rather than a guaranteed stipend for the rest of her life, so she cannot become a parasite. She must continue to work and be productive. And this means that society as a whole will benefit from having one additional productive individual. Thus the socialist use of the net is more beneficial for society than the capitalist use of the net.

5. To generalize from the above: Creating a new net is a form of work. Certainly work should be rewarded. In the real world capitalists don't work - they don't create their own nets. But even assuming that they do, they should be rewarded for their work the same as everyone else, rather than being able to take away part of the work of others. Saying that Jane should be able to get a steady stream of income for producing a single net is like saying that Frank should be able to get a steady stream of income for catching a single fish.

PRC-UTE
6th April 2008, 17:04
It reads like one of those Robinsonaides Marx criticised for its abstract removal from the real world.

Yes, arguing through analogies or fairy tales is a bit flawed in that you can make up whatever you want without the real world or its annoying facts getting in the way.

If the author really thinks modern industrial capitalism came about this way, s/he needs a desperate read of a history book. :laugh:

chegitz guevara
7th April 2008, 16:56
Most of the comrades are dealing with this parable incorrectly. It has to be taken on and defeated on its own terms. To talk about the falsity of magic hair (in actually, normal human hair is strong enough to use as a net, provided you have enough of it) is to utterly miss the target the author is aiming at, which is intellectual property, i.e., ideas.

So, to deal with the first "given," that the net is hers because it came from her own body. Once it is no longer attached to you, it is not part of your body. Whatever exclusive rights you have to your body do not apply to the net.

If Jane and Frank come to a mutual agreement to rent her net in exchange for a portion of the catch, that is not capitalism. Jane does not become a capitalist, but akin to a land owner. If Jane were a capitalist, she would have hired Frank to catch fish with her net and paid him a portion of the proceeds and sold the rest.

The hair net is not capital, but a tool. Capital is used to generate wealth. Jane is not generating wealth in this instance. She's only getting the same amount of fish she was getting before, albeit, without doing anymore work. In Frank's hands, however, it is capital, as he now has twice the fish he needs, and he can sell the extra fish. Unless, however, he can use the proceeds from the extra fish to procure more nets, Frank will never be more than a petit bourgeois.

So let us assume that Frank has the means to procure another net. Well, he can't use both, so he hires someone to work his net. He pays this person one day's worth of fish. He keeps the other two day's worth for himself, and uses them to buy more nets, and hire more fishermen. At a certain point, Frank's growing fishing empire will come into conflict with the other fishermen on the beach. The beach is a common resource, but Frank is taking more and more of the resources. He is also producing so much fish that regular fishermen can no longer make a living selling their catch, because the price of fish has fallen. So the fisherment organize against Frank. No one should be allowed to catch more than their fair share. Frank isn't going to sit by and let his fishing empire be crushed, so he hires thugs to beat up the other fishermen and secures for himself exclusive fishing rights to the beach. He then hires some of the now unemployed fishermen, and the rest starve, get killed, jailed, or go elsewhere to make a living.

apathy maybe
7th April 2008, 17:25
The problem is, that the net should not continued to be owned by Jane.

Jane creates the net, which is fine. She then could either use it to catch fish herself (which would also be fine), or give it to someone else.

In the story, however, she goes a third route. She rents the net to Frank. Well, the concept of rent has already been shown to be unfair in other sections of the board.

Basically, if you own something, and do not use it (especially the 'means of production'), then you should not continue to own that thing. Ownership should be based on usage.

Anyway, so yeah, while the net is worth something (because it is useful), it is not worth an infinite amount. So, it isn't "wrong" for Frank to simply take the net once Jane has shown that she isn't going to use it (no matter how it came into existence) (paying a fair compensation for the labour that Jane put into it).

Orange Juche
7th April 2008, 19:19
Clear evidence why analogies are shit, and how they simplify complex situations.