CHE! Help me from these idealist

[RedSovietCCCP]

Do you think Che thought like all you idealist so called communist. Nope, I don't think so. He lived in the real world and not some fantasy land like lets just say Micheal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IzmSchism]

what the hell are you talking about

[Michael De Panama]

He lived in the same fantasy land as me, child. He hated the Soviet system. He hated totalitarianism. He didn't even agree with Castro's governing system. He thought just like us "idealists". Do you not know anything about Che?

[RedSovietCCCP]

Here I go again proving you wrong once again. From che biography states "che was practically the architect of the soviet-cuban relationship. It sure does sounds like che hated the soviets michael. Read some books once in your life!!!!!!!!!!!!! And where did you get your information about castros governing system and how che didn't like. your just pulling shit out of your ass with no concrete evidence to support what you are saying. Me, I am getting quotes left and right to support what I am saying. Just give up and go back to playing your video games. your argumeants are bullshit!!!!!!

[IzmSchism]

yo CCCP, please let the anger out of your email when you address someone else's post, it is hard to understand what you are saying. Now were you saying that Che was a backer of the Soviet system or against it?? Her I agree with De Panama, from what I have read of Che, most trecently in JLAnderson's fairly complete account was that Che was a hinderance to Soviet-Cuba relations, more so in the end of his term as Minister of Economics, he was more in favour of the Maoist sytem.

And if you are dissin' the cats who you so call as the idealists, please what the hell are you exactly saying, is it that the idealists are all words and no action?? Che was very much an idealists, the inventor of "The New Man" that is about as ideal as you can get, to formulate and write about the evolution of the morality of man, and how to shape this in existing economies and political infrastructures....Of course he didn't stop there, he took ACTION, yet where there is no idealism, no planning, there results in poor action and implementation....SO....I think if I am reading you correctly, but I think you should either clarify what you are trying to say by idealists and communism or you should stop wasting your time trying to prove something you feel you are an expert on and just try and start these threads to trash others or certify your importance, either way I have spent too much time writing this post.

[Menshevik]

Che is probably the ultimate idealist/romantic. He was constantly in search of adventure in his youth. If he was such a har-line communist like Castro etal., why did he leave Cuba? If he had stayed he might even be running the country today.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Menchevik do you know why he didn't stay. BECAUSE HE WAS FIGHTING REVOLUTIONS ELSWHERE to expand the socialist camp. He didn't even want to run Cuba, he lived for revolution!!!! You people really need to catch up on your che reading!!!!

[Menshevik]

How is spreading World Revolution, not idealistic? YOu couldn't have said it better yourself, Che lived for the Revolution. Someone who had so much zeal in them wouldnt stand for a world without imagination. Che was not some second rate, black and white revolutionary as you would have him be.

Maybe you should give your definition of "idealistic" and "realistic" for us.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

what the hell this che and castro were like brothers man.....che didnt live in a fake world like micheal..che was for real che wanted to kill all capitalist he wouldve agree with our soviet warsaw pact huh comrades.

[RedSovietCCCP]

First of all how do I put che as a black and white revoultionary? you need to explain yourself so I can defend myself. My definition of Idealist are the hippies in the 60's to see things as they should be and do nothing about it. Peaty little ideas. I agree with you that che was a Idealist but he had such a leadership skill he got people to back what he was doing. Che is the ultimate revolutionary and a great, great, man. His writings and speeches are great and I learned a lot from him.

[IzmSchism]

VIVE LE CHE
and meurte to all the mean people!

[James]

Please learn to type properly, so that i may grasp the basics of what you attempt to say each time.

I thought even on Che-Lives there is a speech, where he critizises the Soviet Union...i may be wrong though.

James

[Ernest Everhard]

che along with raul were initially the major pushers of a cuban soviet alliance. Eventually, coming upon 68 che became a hindrance, not because he despised the soviet system, but because the soviets did not explicitly support che's attempts to create a revolutionary foco in latin america.
I disagree with cccp, che was an idealist, not because he thought that people were good and communism would succeed without violence, but because he was convinced that the methods of compulsory labor he pushed for at the start of the cuban revolution would be welcomed and suceed in the long run, very unrealistic.

[James]

That was at SS or one of his comrades...

[IzmSchism]

ernest yep, I think that was a crucial time, when the KGB were in Cuba, before and after the Bay of Pigs, Russia totally played Cuba to get the American missiles out of Poland( I think)....

[lenin]

izmschism, the missiles were in turkey.

che was only critical of the USSR when krushchev pulled the missiles away. che wanted to completely send USA back to the stone age!

[Edelweiss]

YOU are the dreamers, not us! What you are not realizing is that you are actually doing more against the socialist cause than every anti-communist propaganda ever can do. We need role models like Che not scum like Stalin was. You are scaring off the people with your inhuman Stalinist worshipping, no human with a brain will join us if he/she thinks that communism is what you are preaching.

[Menshevik]

Thank you Malte, you come on a bit harsh, but that needed to be said.

[Edelweiss]

I have to be harsh now, I can't watch any longer how the community is going downhill. Call it egoistic, but I just don't want any more Stalinists here.

[RedSovietCCCP]

hehehe......malt don't be mad because che wasn't a liberal like all you so called communist. your right about one thing we need more people like che, people who know what the true meaning of communism. People who are educated on communism!!!

[peaccenicked]

Get yourself a real education
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...37/1937-sta.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1937/1937-sta.htm)

[lenin]

che....a liberal!!!! don't make me laugh!!!!

he hated gays like me and from some of his writing, he could even be considered a racist! he wrote desparingly of africans!
you are saying che was 'a role model' and stalin was 'scum'? woud che have still been a role model if he nuked USA? because he would of (nuked USA that is!). che didn't kill as many people as stalin, but he would of killed 250millilion americans if he got the chance. thats why he fell out with USSR! they said he couldn't!

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Malte on 2:46 am on May 31, 2002
I have to be harsh now, I can't watch any longer how the community is going downhill. Call it egoistic, but I just don't want any more Stalinists here.


You're like a Damm right now Malte, you're blocking the flow with the restrictions and it causes arguements, clear the path and everything will flow more smoothly and people will be less bitter.

[lenin]

well if you want to protect the community, why don't you just leave capitalists and stalnist out of the commie club? stalinist should be allowed to acess the rest of the forums. as long as they haven't been racist (which i haven't) they should be allowed to post everywhere but the commire club.

[Thine Stalin]

I still think we should be allowed in commie club, I mean we're communists too.

[Edelweiss]

lenin, you already got very rascist. And as I already said, no National Bolsheviks like you are no leftists and therefore not allowed outside this forum. You Stalinists are all so stupid, everyone who isn't supporting Stalin is a liberal! Go to you ideological friends of the national socialists, they are just like you. Leave this forums NOW!

[lenin]

but i already gave you my reasons for national bolshevism. the reconstruction of the USSR, not racism. remember, USSR was a multi-racial state! like i said before, why would i deny being racsit if i was? its an anonomus internet board! i've got nothing to hide! i'm not racist and should be allowe in the rest of the forum. i can exept the bac in the commire club, but wy am i banned from 'chit chat' and 'theory'?

[Edelweiss]

Don't try to trick us about your ideology, I do exactly now what national bolshevism is, it's not just the reconstruction of the USSR. I's a deeply backward, rascist and anti-semitic idealogy.Why the hell you just look for another BB where you'll find fellow nationalist friends? I don't want you here!

[lenin]

it not 'my' fucking ideology! i just support it on that one point, the USSR! why would i try to trick you? what hae i got to gain?

[Edelweiss]

So why you are calling yourself a national Bolshevik than? I can't see any leftist in your posts, you talking just like a right winger with your homophobic and one race state (you said before you are against a multi-cultural state!) babbeling.

[evile bstard]

Malte is right, leave the forum - as far as i'm concerned it is difficult to comment on Che's theorys of socialism and communism as his principles were not embrassed and practised in full - if she was anti african what was he doing in the congo???????

[lenin]

got to the thread in'ernesto 'che' guevar' forum called 'che and his issues'. it seems he may have developed his racist feelings IN the congo because of his lackluste troops.
malte, i can't be fucked to keep explaining myself. yes i don't like multicultrulism, yes i don't like homosexuality, but communism is economic equality. i am not racist but i don't care if you think i am or not.
castro, che, stalin, mao etc all hated homosexuality! are they not communists? and frederick engels was a fucking racist! was he not comunist?

[evile bstard]

good point lenin, however if you read "the african dream" youll see Che was equally as critical of the cubans in the team!! ( and his own actions ) - Che did however pity the Africans for their belief in the dawa!!

[Edelweiss]

How can you know that Che hated homosexuality? He had rascist feelings? Proof it, lyer! Only because he criticized the African troops for their lack of discipline but that doesn't makes him a rascist. He fought with many blacks during the Cuban revolution. He shurely disliked gays, I won't deny that, he was a latin macho. But unlike you he was an internationalist, he fought for the freedom of all people not just his own race or nation.

[evile bstard]

Che probably disliked gays due to the way he was brought up - just like people who dislike spiders!

[lenin]

if i can't call che racist for critisising african troops, then how come you can call me racist just because i love my country?
the truth is, i don't know for sure che was a racist. from some of his writings, he seemed to have racist tendancies but you shouldn't judge him unless you know, just like you shouldn't dismiss me as racist when you have idea that i am. ok, i support NBP, but i've given you the reasons for it. you are just ignorant to them.
how come che is ok for not liking gays but i am a right winger if i do? you have double standards.

[Edelweiss]

I didn't said that it's ok for me. Che is not my god. He was wrong in his attitude towars gays.

[Menshevik]

maybe he was genuinly homophobic, which cant be prevented (unless you want therapy).