For FARC supporters

[Sankara1983]

What do workers (or anyone else for that matter) gain from FARC's imprisonment of a dying Íngrid Betancourt? This situation seems like a wholly unnecessary, tragic, and criminal diversion from any legitimate struggle.

[AGITprop]

They gain nothing. FARC is alienated from the working class.

[dso79]

They gain nothing. FARC is alienated from the working class. They are terrorists.


This bullshit has already been refuted in other threads.

As for the hostage taking, I’m not really a big fan of this strategy, but I suppose FARC doesn’t have a lot of options. They need the ransom money to fund their operations, and prisoner exchanges are probably the only way to free captured comrades. Releasing Betancourt now, without a deal, would not only harm efforts to secure the release of jailed FARC members, it would also strengthen the government and weaken FARC.

And let’s not forget that she would probably have been released a long time ago if it hadn’t been for the Uribe administration’s continued efforts to sabotage the negotiations.

[Luís Henrique]

What do workers (or anyone else for that matter) gain from FARC's imprisonment of a dying Íngrid Betancourt? This situation seems like a wholly unnecessary, tragic, and criminal diversion from any legitimate struggle.

On the other hand, what does the Colombian State gain from the imprisonment of FARC's footsoldiers?

The FARC's strategy is a losing one, but we shouldn't pin this down to a moral problem. They are not the Shining Path.

Luís Henrique

[Dros]

Wow.

Whining liberals have infiltrated RevLeft.

"Terrorism" psht...

[Bright Banana Beard]

Wow.

Whining liberals have infiltrated RevLeft.

"Terrorism" psht...

your point beside the insulting?

[Colonello Buendia]

The FARC lost their way along time ago, they no longer have wide support of the people and the Hostage taking is stupid. If Betancourt dies in FARC hands then the left are going to suffer the repercussions.

[AGITprop]

This bullshit has already been refuted in other threads.

I'd like to see those threads. Thanks for volunteering your time to search for them. I highly appreciate it.

[BIG BROTHER]

The FARC lost their way along time ago, they no longer have wide support of the people and the Hostage taking is stupid. If Betancourt dies in FARC hands then the left are going to suffer the repercussions.

I'm not a big supporter of kidnapigs, but they once said "let the rich pay, for the war they started" also is a war and wars ain't pretty you know. The paramilitary isn't gonna be fair with them, so they have to do what they can.

[Wanted Man]

your point beside the insulting?
What better response to Glick's crap than an insult? We see here the claim that the FARC are alienated from the people, and that they are "terrorists". Bush himself couldn't have said it better. Indeed, if you add the "narco-" prefix, you have the exact justification for the "War on Drugs"!


I'd like to see those threads. Thanks for volunteering your time to search for them. I highly appreciate it.
Do it yourself. You're the one that decided to come in here, parading your reactionary views and complete ignorance on this matter. And now you're arrogantly demanding that other people prove your baseless claims wrong. You're one of a kind, Glick. But let me give you a hint: the answer that you seek is in a sticky thread in Politics. Now get stuffed.

And sure, keeping Betancourt kidnapped isn't going to "help the workers". But that's not possible all the time, unfortunately. Of course, not every single action is directly going to give every Colombian worker a pay rise. But releasing her isn't going to help much either. The government had a chance to get it done, and they ruined it by killing off the people of FARC who were working on it. Inside Ecuadorean territory, no less. Don't you people ever watch the news?

[Kyznetsov]

'Terrorism' is a right-wing buzzword, short-term tactics are simply a matter of course, it's quite easy to condemn the actions of persecuted communists fighting the whole bourgeois state isn't it? When the going looks tough just say everything is useless and all that garbage...

[dez]

farc having Ingrid is the best thing has ever happened to the Uribe regime, and it will sure as hell try to extend that situation by delaying and undermining negociations as much as possible.

[chegitz guevara]

Do it yourself. You're the one that decided to come in here, parading your reactionary views and complete ignorance on this matter. And now you're arrogantly demanding that other people prove your baseless claims wrong.

You realize that this sort of argument, taken to its extreme, would mean communists never do any education of others. The correct way to deal with comrades who have ideas which do not fit the facts is to educate them, not berate them.

[dso79]

I'd like to see those threads. Thanks for volunteering your time to search for them. I highly appreciate it.


This has been discussed regularly over the past few years, for example in the threads that are listed in the 'frequent topics of discussion' thread and, more recently, in this one:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/farc-leaders-death-t72106/index.html

I also recommend you read the article by James Brittain that has been posted in several of those threads. It clears up many of the misunderstandings about FARC:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0905brittain.htm

[abrupt]

I have a better question, why does the Colombian government not want Bettancourt released?

Everytime Betancourt comes close to being released Colombian government intervenes. Like when Chavez was negotiating and was about to get em released, Uribe stepped in and ended the negotiating.
Then the French diplomats were going to discuss the pretty much immediate release of Betancourt until they got bombed in Ecuador where the FARC was earlier this month.

That's what it seems at least.

[Dominicana_1965]

I have a better question, why does the Colombian government not want Bettancourt released?

Everytime Betancourt comes close to being released Colombian government intervenes. Like when Chavez was negotiating and was about to get em released, Uribe stepped in and ended the negotiating.
Then the French diplomats were going to discuss the pretty much immediate release of Betancourt until they got bombed in Ecuador where the FARC was earlier this month.

That's what it seems at least.


If Betancourt were to be released in Ecuador it pretty much would have led up to some possible form of exchanging and some peace time. The Colombian rightist state has no intentions of maintaining the "peace", instead they are looking to completely annihilate the FARC-EP.

So whats a possible way to neglect the exchange? Destroy the possibility of a release.

[AGITprop]

This has been discussed regularly over the past few years, for example in the threads that are listed in the 'frequent topics of discussion' thread and, more recently, in this one:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/farc-leaders-death-t72106/index.html

I also recommend you read the article by James Brittain that has been posted in several of those threads. It clears up many of the misunderstandings about FARC:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0905brittain.htm
Thank you for posting this thread. I should have posted in it and meant to but didn't have the time.

I still hold my position that FARC is alienated from the working class. To be fair, I understand that I am not in Colombia and cannot know for certain people's sentiments toward FARC, but I understand that they cannot positive if there are only 16, 000 members presently and FARC having existed for half a century as another comrade pointed out. If they actually were fighting for the people and reaching out to them, why haven't they joined? Because guerilla warfare is not he way to build the revolution. They are merely alienating themselves from the working class. So please don't tell me this is bullshit next time. Perhaps I should not have used the term terrorist though, so for that I appologize.

[Guerrilla22]

What do workers (or anyone else for that matter) gain from FARC's imprisonment of a dying Íngrid Betancourt? This situation seems like a wholly unnecessary, tragic, and criminal diversion from any legitimate struggle.

FARC has been more than willing to negociate the release of Betancourt and other prisoners, it was the Colombian government that sabotaged the efforts, because they couldn't stand the fact that Chavez was going to be the one resposible for the release of the prisoners. The Colombian government doesn't want the prisoners released because they need them in order to legitimize their authoritarian nature.

[BIG BROTHER]

Thank you for posting this thread. I should have posted in it and meant to but didn't have the time.

I still hold my position that FARC is alienated from the working class. To be fair, I understand that I am not in Colombia and cannot know for certain people's sentiments toward FARC, but I understand that they cannot positive if there are only 16, 000 members presently and FARC having existed for half a century as another comrade pointed out. If they actually were fighting for the people and reaching out to them, why haven't they joined? Because guerilla warfare is not he way to build the revolution. They are merely alienating themselves from the working class. So please don't tell me this is bullshit next time. Perhaps I should not have used the term terrorist though, so for that I appologize.

Actually farmers in the rural part of Colombia do side with them. Seccond yeah las FARC except for farmers is pretty much alienated from most of the working class in Colombia. But, just because Colombian proles don't have class conciosnes(sorry for the horrible misspell) that doesn't mean we shouldn't support them, or that they should give in.

[Guerrilla Manila]

At this point ... FARC would be justified in applying the Coup de grâce ... and then holding up a blood smeared picture of Uribe to the cameras ... followed by the words: "You did this".

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

Thank you for posting this thread. I should have posted in it and meant to but didn't have the time.

I still hold my position that FARC is alienated from the working class. To be fair, I understand that I am not in Colombia and cannot know for certain people's sentiments toward FARC, but I understand that they cannot positive if there are only 16, 000 members presently and FARC having existed for half a century as another comrade pointed out. If they actually were fighting for the people and reaching out to them, why haven't they joined? Because guerilla warfare is not he way to build the revolution. They are merely alienating themselves from the working class. So please don't tell me this is bullshit next time. Perhaps I should not have used the term terrorist though, so for that I appologize.

How has the FARC alienated the working class? The FARC serves as the defense for the working class and with 16,000 armed revolutionaries comes hundreds of thousands of supporters in Colombia. The FARC started off as the armed wing for the Colombian Communist Party, a party built up of the working class. We also should look at growing international support towards the FARC to recognize it as a legitimate insurgency group and to question the United States role in the region because as we all know there has been growing tensions in the region, especially with the US backed Colombian government conducting illegal offensive strikes into Ecuador.

Who else has the qualifications and support of the people in Colombia to confront the corrupt terrorist government of Uribe and the US? People have joined with the FARC, if not directly as part of the armed insurgency through other political structures that look at things through a communist perspective in which the FARC serves as force for its defense.


Because guerilla warfare is not he way to build the revolution.

There is justification for the guerrilla insurgency in Colombia, a little historical reading and it becomes very clear. I'm sorry but as a communist I have to say that your opinion is outright BS, but your entitled to that position.

[Luís Henrique]

At this point ... FARC would be justified in applying the Coup de grâce ... and then holding up a blood smeared picture of Uribe to the cameras ... followed by the words: "You did this".

Thankfully, your opinion hasn't the faintest influence upont the FARC leadership...

Luís Henrique

[Guerrilla Manila]

Thankfully, your opinion hasn't the faintest influence upont the FARC leadership...


Thankfully, your opinion hasn't the faintest influence upon me ... ;)

[black magick hustla]

Thankfully, your opinion hasn't the faintest influence upon me ... ;)

That is because you are a fucking idiot.

First you say some racist shit about the situation in Turkey, then you say Marcos is going to lead a revolution, and now this....

What the hell is wrong with you?

[Wanted Man]

At this point ... FARC would be justified in applying the Coup de grâce ... and then holding up a blood smeared picture of Uribe to the cameras ... followed by the words: "You did this".
Sick. Regardless of opinions about FARC, I do hope that she is freed. But we all know how Uribe has ruined that recently. Sarkozy can beg in front of the camera all he wants, but it's clear which side he is on, and that side has fucked it up.

[Luís Henrique]

Thankfully, your opinion hasn't the faintest influence upon me ... ;)

Nor upon the Himalaya, for what it is worth.:rolleyes:

Luís Henrique

[BIG BROTHER]

Sick. Regardless of opinions about FARC, I do hope that she is freed. But we all know how Uribe has ruined that recently. Sarkozy can beg in front of the camera all he wants, but it's clear which side he is on, and that side has fucked it up.

Well, there is supposed to be an exchange of Betancourt for some guerrilleros.

[guevara2093]

The reason Uribe doesn't like dealing with the farc is because they killed his father, so he doesn't want to negotiate anything with them and would rather just eliminate them. I know that in Bogota, the capital, almost everyone hates the farc, even the lower class. I don't know about the other cities like Medellin though.

[AGITprop]

The reason Uribe doesn't like dealing with the farc is because they killed his father, so he doesn't want to negotiate anything with them and would rather just eliminate them. I know that in Bogota, the capital, almost everyone hates the farc, even the lower class. I don't know about the other cities like Medellin though.

Really, the working class as well? Do you have proof of this. People here don't agree that workers could possibly resent FARC in anyway, and I highly doubt that.

[Guerrilla Manila]

First you say some racist shit about the situation in Turkey, then you say Marcos is going to lead a revolution, and now this....

What the hell is wrong with you?

I'm sorry the truth upsets you.

- There is nothing racist about recognizing Turkey for the Apartheid ethnocracy that it is ... and Turks as the imperialist invaders who committed genocide against Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds (to this day) to keep it that way. Read a fucking book. And Yes I have lived in North Kurdistan (east Turkey) and seen this first hand. 2,000 villages were razed in the 1990's ... and it is illegal to even speak Kurdish for more than 1 hour a day on TV.

- Marcos is the most popular politician in Mexico ... and is the most respected Mexican politician in the world.

- The FARC are involved in a "WAR" with Uribe in case you didn't get the memo. They must match the brutality of Uribe if they are going to repel him. Revolution is not for the squeamish or those who allow themselves to buy into "bullshit" fictitious "rules" of combat, which those in power never follow themselves. FARC would be justified in giving an ultamatum of 1 week for an exchange ... or she dies.

[BIG BROTHER]

Really, the working class as well? Do you have proof of this. People here don't agree that workers could possibly resent FARC in anyway, and I highly doubt that.

nah man, I think he's right, most of the working class in the city is probably against las FARC. Of course if the media wasn't on Uribe's side and the workers had consiosnes, things would be different.

[Red October]

I'm sorry the truth upsets you.

- There is nothing racist about recognizing Turkey for the Apartheid ethnocracy that it is ... and Turks as the imperialist invaders who committed genocide against Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds (to this day) to keep it that way. Read a fucking book. And Yes I have lived in North Kurdistan (east Turkey) and seen this first hand. 2,000 villages were razed in the 1990's ... and it is illegal to even speak Kurdish for more than 1 hour a day on TV.

- Marcos is the most popular politician in Mexico ... and is the most respected Mexican politician in the world.

- The FARC are involved in a "WAR" with Uribe in case you didn't get the memo. They must match the brutality of Uribe if they are going to repel him. Revolution is not for the squeamish or those who allow themselves to buy into "bullshit" fictitious "rules" of combat, which those in power never follow themselves. FARC would be justified in giving an ultamatum of 1 week for an exchange ... or she dies.


- The Turkish government has undoubtedly committed awful crimes against many people, but it's absurd to say that "The Turks" are responsible for it. That's like blaming all white people for the American government's racist actions today.

- Marcos is not a politician and I'd like you to prove that he's the most popular guy around. I support the EZLN too, but let's have a little realism as well.

- The idea that we have to be as brutal as the people we fight against has gotten us no where and ends up turning people against us. Killing Betancourt like that would be awful for the cause and screw the FARC over even more than they already are.

[guevara2093]

Well, I used to live there and have a lot of friends who are working class, and they hate the farc because of what is shown on the media, as well as because they are associated with drugs, which gives Colombians bad name. Though I think that people in rural areas who don't have access to Caracol or any other media would hate them.

[AGITprop]

nah man, I think he's right, most of the working class in the city is probably against las FARC. Of course if the media wasn't on Uribe's side and the workers had consiosnes, things would be different.

Of course, thats what I'm saying. Not all workers look up to FARC. They are not some shining light in a lot of the working class' eyes. It seems that some people believe the complete opposite and that worker's are in no way alienated from FARC. This is probably due to the media, but I doubt it is entirely a product of that.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

With the recent events that have unfolded in the region, it is clear to see that the FARC have a more important role to play today than before. They have demonstrated that they can open up internationally and serve as peace makers; as they have done so by negotiating the release of hostages with the help of Hugo Chavez.

Let us also remember, Ingrid Betancourt was on the verge of being released before the FARC came under attack by the Uribe government. There are also new claims now that the US was behind the rocket that hit the FARC camp in Ecuador. I know we could have all came to this conclusion in this case we have Ecuador presenting this to the international community, especially in all around Latin America to build its case against the recent attacks on Ecuadorean soil.

My point is we need look at Colombia here and now and recognize the FARC's role and direction in the region. Since Bush stepped into the White House, billions of more dollars have been going into Uribe's government. Where are the communist standing up against this kind of imperialist aggression. In the jungles of Latin America, the fighters of the FARC.

We have also witnessed Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Ecuador be very vocal on this kind of US aggression, as they too show that they are with the FARC and it's aims and goals.


Not all workers look up to FARC.

Not all workers do, but genuine Communist do. That is why it is the role of the Communist to spread class consciousness among the working class to bring about the Communist Revolution. As long as the capitalist maintain a strong grip on the media, then it becomes more difficult to reach out to the workers, especially in a place where the Empire has means of providing Colombia's military with billions of dollars worth of military supplies and equipment to go after the revolutionaries.

But this isn't the case anymore with the rise of media outlets such as TeleSur, who in itself bring about class consciousness to its viewers.

As we have seen in the recent months, who have been the losers in this confrontation with the FARC? The Uribe government and the United States.

[Sankara1983]

Not all workers do, but genuine Communist do.

I really hate the phrase "genuine Communists" (or "genuine socialists") because it's almost meaningless. There are scores of parties and tiny sects around the world that consider themselves the only "real" communists. Why should we value one group's opinion on who is a communist so much more than others? You'll find many dedicated "Communists" who oppose FARC in good faith because they disagree with its program or tactics! Why is that so hard for some people to accept? Far-left politics isn't supposed to be a religious cult based on who can convince the most people that their group has the most flawless, brilliant, and original interpretation of Marx, Engels, and Lenin (or alternately, which group's leader is the Second Coming of Leon Trotsky), but some of its members treat it that way.

[nanovapor]

Hello all: i've read lots of leftists, saying FARC are a deformed version of petti bourgeois, and stalinism, i know that Marx didn't say: Workers of the world: Highjack people, however. reality is different from what we read, even in Marx books. So it is real hard to judge if FARC are evil or morally justified.

nanovapor



They gain nothing. FARC is alienated from the working class.

[nanovapor]

Hello, you are smart indeed. I am a newbee in marxism, however i haven't read in any marxist books where marx wrote about highjacking people. I don't think that highjacking people is Marxist or Leftist at all. I think that there should be an international conference of leftists condemning FARC as non-leftist group

thanx

nanovapor




The FARC lost their way along time ago, they no longer have wide support of the people and the Hostage taking is stupid. If Betancourt dies in FARC hands then the left are going to suffer the repercussions.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

The question on abducting people (because I can't imagine how somebody would hijack another human being) in exchange for a release of political prisoners can be justified to some extent. For the most part it appears that the FARC is willing now to* release all those who are being held in return for a prisoner exchange of all political prisoners of the FARC. The Colombian government seems to keep strong towards their bloody offensive.

Colombia has one of the most bloodiest history's in Latina America when it comes to the class struggle and the way the bourgeoisie defended itself with the army's of the oligarchs. When you look at how the political scene was divided you really had two fronts against those in power. The leftist and the bandidos. The bandidos of course who would develop into figures such as Pablo Escobar, who then would become part of the power structure in itself. But when we are looking at the root of Colombia's history that eventually shaped the FARC and how it would go about defending themselves, all parties named played major roles, and they all had to deal with chaos and members of their class being killed, but not just killed, body parts separated, displayed and made example of.

There was a story that came out of TeleSur about the Colombian government killing innocent civilians and pointing the finger at the FARC. This is the enemy that the FARC is dealing with. Now the families are speaking out against the government, not the FARC.

Under the conditions that existed, and the reality of how bad things where, presenting a prisoner exchange would have served a purpose, especially during the bitter class struggles that Colombia was facing, and the rise of the drug lords. And if successful, nobody dies. It can be used as a useful tactic if the conditions presented allow for such a move to be used. Take a member of the ruling class and put a price on it's head for how many of your comrades you want back home. And of course whom ever was taken would be part of the bourgeoisie, non other. (And since it's a member of the bourgeoisie they then have the power to take the story and make it somehow seem to the viewer, or reader through the eyes of the media that the FARC are the real enemy in this case)

But they wont talk about their faults. It is more appropriate to have an international conference condemning the Uribe's government, and the US for financing, and participating in human rights violations, violation of international law and so on.

I see no reason for leftist to divide themselves when it comes to Latin America's growing support towards las FARC. We should also stand up and show are support instead of hold a capitalist position of refusing to accept the FARC as a leftist group.

Hypothetically speaking, saying this forum has lost connection with the true revolutionaries and communist thought would gain more support than charging the FARC. But then it just doesn't matter, both arguments are irrelevant and serve absolutely no purpose but to divide.

[Ultra-Violence]

The Turkish government has undoubtedly committed awful crimes against many people, but it's absurd to say that "The Turks" are responsible for it. That's like blaming all white people for the American government's racist actions today.
^^^^^^^^^
Off topic but i got to say something here White people dont seem to try to reverse any past injustices and they still benift from racsim but yet they do nothing about it.

go on

[poop transfusion]

so what if it's true, the colombian lower class is alienated from them NOW? if they won (broke colombian gov't, seized state power), (won't happen anytime soon i know) they could bring them around peacefully, show they are on their side. not sure if anyone's made that point yet here, im new. supporting the FARC now isn't the best choice but you never get a best choice in real life - kind of like the long march.
i'll throw in my two cents and agree with some things already said somewheres on this board- nations in the region are turning to the left and supporting FARC. and always remember that if the FARC were to disappear right now there would be a rightist bloodbath lead by the AUC, and drugs would STILL be exported from the region cauz that's where all the drugs come from down there anyways, the rightists. so whining about how they are involved with drugs is retarded.

[poop transfusion]

my question - why do THEY not cooperate with the ELN? does chavez even support ELN? what are you guys views on that smaller group?

[Ferryman 5]

Rosa Lichtenstein (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?find=lastposter&t=74271) is a “moderator” which means she will threaten to shut you out of this site if you persist in arguing with here. That is why she is able to talk nonsense without sanction. The best thing is to pretend that she is of some consequence and talk round her.

[poop transfusion]

ah. well, that clears that up then????