stalinist revolution! - who would join it?

[lenin]

obviously the capitalists wouldn't but would the rest of you 'communists'? or would you favour capitalist over stalinism?

[Capitalist Fighter]

LOL, every court needs its jester...

[El Che]

Join it? I would fight it, with guns.

[Fabi]

stalinism? no way!

[libereco]

I rather live under the capitalist system of germany right now than under a stalinist regime. There is much more chance for improvement. It's even more fucking socialist than the Party-Rule if you ask me.
After a stalinist revolution i'd probably be purged anyway...

[James]

I'm against totalitiarianism. I'd fight any form of it.

[Michael De Panama]

I think you already know where I stand. :)

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from lenin on 11:35 pm on May 29, 2002
lets look at the facts here. people like me, redsoviet, thine stalin, leonid (yuri) etc, we get into power, why? because we apeal to more people, we are more realistic and our ideas are easier to follow

[RedSovietCCCP]

you like that quote from lenin, micheal?? It's true keep living in your fantasy land. Don't you wonder why your stlye of communism has never happened in a government in the world today??? It's not that hard to figure out. Well maybe for you it is!!!!! hehehehe......

[James]

you like that quote from lenin, micheal?? It's true keep living in your fantasy land. Don't you wonder why your stlye of communism has never happened in a government in the world today??? It's not that hard to figure out. Well maybe for you it is!!!!! hehehehe....

But what you "represent" is facism. Why not just call your self a Nazi? Remember, the nazis were the National Socialists. I think you have lots of coinsiding views...

James

[PaulDavidHewson]

Stalin order the killing of 15000 officers and 40000 sovjet soldiers to purge the military.

[lenin]

what is your point????

stalin reformed the military into an awsome superpower! the discipline he instilled was legendary! "in the soviet army, it takes more courage to retreat, than to advance"-stalin

[STALINSOLDIERS]

man ill join any revolution if mines go slow i join one thats fast....shit ive been thinking into joining the islamic jihad revolution.....ill join to fight for a stalinist revolution but i dont support it i would fight for marxism and my own mind.....dam 2 guys here in miami planted few bombs and got caught thats sad news for me...

[Michael De Panama]

His point was that Stalin would have killed you, if you were a part of the regime, just to advance his military to suit his own selfish desires.

[lenin]

stalin kill me? don't be ridiculous! stalin only killed enemies of the people. like deserters or capitalists. i would of been loyal to the stalinist regime.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

like i dont think stalin wouldve killed me....why cause i would like to kill capitalist and from that hell let me go into killing others like bill gate, the rocket some shit like that hes rich stalin would let me loose and kill the enemy, but there one thing dont be freind with a facist like the real stalin did..

[Thine Stalin]

I would join it.

You idiots, you do realise the majority of people in russia weren't killed 3 million people is nowhere near the entire population of the Soviet Union.

[Michael De Panama]

OH! The majority of Russia wasn't killed? Well, then I guess mass murders are okay in that case!

[Moskitto]

Stalinism is bad. I'd get an sniper rifle and red-tinted contact lenses is a revolution came.

Michael, that idea for rating mass murders is what I used to argue why Pol Pot was more evil than Hitler and that Lother Von Trotha was as evil as Mao Zedung.

[James]

Stalin order the killing of 15000 officers and 40000 sovjet soldiers to purge the military.


what is your point????

I will refer to you guys as one from now on. Its just easier this way.

That is why i called you a nazi, with such little regard for human life, its sickening.

[Shock To The System]

Stalin was a psycho...he got way too paranoid.
His silly piece of bum-fluff on his upper lip looked crap too!
No, i wouldn't take part in a stalinist revolution. I'd fight against it with all the Anarchists/true communists, and win, bcos stalinists are all paranoid and would end up killing each other!
Foolish fools!

[Thine Stalin]

Anarchists are true communists? Malte restrict him! He has the nerve to say that a capitalist supporting non existant goverment are the real true communists. It insults ANY real communist here I hope.

[RedRevolutionary87]

ahahaha, have you got your head that far up your ass thine stalin, marx supported anarchy, it was supposed to be the final stage in society. any tru communist would kno that anarchists are our friends, as should any tru anarchist kno.

[Shock To The System]

No Thine u sick little paranoid fuck.....I said Anarchsits/true communsits, meaning, Anarchists and libertarian communists....i'll ignore the rest of ur paranoid rantings as u appear to know very little about Anarchism......no hard feelings though..(;))

[Shock To The System]

Yes, indeed Bakunin and Marx agreed on many points................. I'd unite with real communists, but not paranoid gimps like you.

[Anarcho]

I think it would be interesting to see what would happen. I see Thine Stalin and someone like StalinSoldiers rising to the top (well, probably not, but let's pretend) and then getting in a disagreement.

I wonder which one would kill the other first? Debate and rational discourse is a rather alien concept to them, so I'm willing to bet that one of them would shoot the other in the back one cold and stormy night.

Hmmmm.....

[Capitalist Fighter]

heheh wouldn't surprise me anarcho

[Thine Stalin]

Why shouldn't I shoot him in the back if he is a threat? I would expect him to do the same to me.

I understand alot about anarchism and I was very interested in the utopian anarchism for a while, as it met my utopian socialist views.

But without goverment, companies own everything, and it'll be a capitalist paradise, capitalists want as little goverment existance as possible, and you give them that.

[lenin]

the political left/right is all about government control of the economy. if you go too far on either wing, you get out on the other. like nazism, its such a right wing ideology (in believing that one race is better than the other), the economy ends up left wing (planned economy) whereas anarchy is so far left wing (believing everyone is equal) it ends up a right wing economy (no government control). anarchy would lead to capitalism in these times. maybe in 10,000 years, it will be possible to live in an anarchist society.

[PaulDavidHewson]

"Stalins Soldiers(Storm Abteilung) wrote:
man ill join any revolution if mines go slow i join one thats fast....shit ive been thinking into joining the islamic jihad revolution.....ill join to fight for a stalinist revolution but i dont support it i would fight for marxism and my own mind.....dam 2 guys here in miami planted few bombs and got caught thats sad news for me... "


SS, first I thought you were genuinly dumb and misguided, but now I know you suffer from "Down Syndrom"(though you are a disgraxe to all who suffer from it).
You have so little regard for Human life. Don't you realise that people just want to live their lives the way they prefer too and most people do not prefer being blown up.
What if you parents got killed in such a bombing or your brother? Or your friends?
Tell me Nazi, how would you feel?

Not even the most fervent supporter of Stalin would be safe under a Stalinist regime.

- If you get too influential: you dissapear
- If you utter some negative comments about Stalin in those days: you dissapear(bugged houses, snitches, etc)
- If you don't pay your taxes in time: you suffer horrible fate.
- This is useless, I can name 1001 things that were punishable by death/Gulag or long imprisonment.


Please comment SS or Thine nazi or other Stalinists fools.

[lenin]

"Don't you realise that people just want to live their lives the way they prefer too "

exactly! in stalinism, this is possible. you don't have to worry about things like morgatge, paying the bills etc. the state takes care of everything.
and what do you mean, 'if you don't pay your taxes on time'? the state controls your wages therefore controls your taxes.
you people seem to think stalinism is just limited to USSR 1922-1953! it isn't. you don't have to have every house bugged in a stalinist regime. in 1989, only something like 200 houses were bugged in USSR. proboibly about same as USA!
most of you are misguided about stalinism or too forgiving to bourgeoisie. you need to learn about true stalinism.
the average prolatriat just wants too get married, have kids, get paid what he is worth and go out with freinds once in a while to football or drinking. he doesn't want to have money troubles, he doesn't to have to worry about bills, he doesn't care about his 'free speech', he doesn't care for 'democracy'. and if he does, he can join the party! he doesn't have to worry about these things in stalinism and he can still do all the thigs he wants and have a fairer chance in life. he can settle for what he has got or he can better himself through his career. where is the problem? i ask that to my fellow 'communists'.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

well lets start from the top first i wouldnt shoot thine stalin for an argument, ill figure out who right and whose wrong....i only shoot anohter person if he tries to kill me...or poison yes poison even now i cant drink of of anyone i think thier trying to poison me...i think the cia is looking after me

(Edited by STALINSOLDIERS at 4:30 am on June 1, 2002)

[PaulDavidHewson]

that's where you are wrong.

You think people are simplistic don't you?
Most people may act simplistic, but are in fact very aware of things that happen around them.

Remember the rodney king affair? In a blink of an eye the whole neighbourhood was outside rioting.
People don't restrict their lives to what happens to them.
People care about justice, democracy, freedom to go and say what you like. People care about what happens to their country. People want to be included in the future of their country.
People want to live their lives the way they want to, without too much interference of the state.

For instance, I work at Shell(job to pay for studying).
Say that I were to get fired. Ok no problem, I go to another company and I apply there, maybe even get a better wage and such.
Now say that I work for the state and I'm very unhappy with my job and I generally think that the state sucks.
What happens next, what can I do?

[lenin]

well why would it suck? if it is better pay you want, you'd have to either work harder, or go to higher education and get a better job (incidentally, you have a job to pay for studying but education is free in russia-good point of stalinism).

[lenin]

do i think people are simplistic? not in the sense that they are simple meaning stupid, but in the sense that they don't want an over-complicated life.
you are from a different country than me however. maybe people are different in holland than they are in russia or england.

[PaulDavidHewson]

yes, people here in Holland are generally down to earth and sober(not in the sense of not being drunk).

Everyone wants to be informed to make good diner table conversations and everyone has an opinion about everything, even if they know nothing about it.

But that is besides the point, the point is that the general population on earth does not take in interest in something that doesn't directly interfere with their lives and can be monitored from upclose(because it affects their living space/country).
So if you are going to fiddle with people's lifestyle than you can count on it that people will give feedback and take an interest in what will be best for them.

Btw, you don't need Stalinsime to have free/cheap education.
Here in Holland education isn't that expensive and people can generally follow the same education(wheter you are rich or poor). The amount you pay for school is nothing compared with the actual costs and you get a small monthly donation from the goverment(the amount depents on wheter you live with you parents, the amount of monye your parents make, etc).
And if you are still having problems paying for your education than the goverment will give you a loan.

For instance, i'm studying to become an automatisation consultant. I pay $1400 dollars a year just to be allowed to go to that school. Then you have your books($100-$200 a year, or you could buy them second hand).
The goverment gives me $70 dollar a month for 4 years, this is given to every student in the netherlands. Ontop of that you can get more money which you don't have to pay back if you complete your studies.
You also get a pass which allows you to use public tansport(trains, busses, metro, trams, etc) for free.

I think DDAY will agree with me when I say that The netherlands is probably one of the most Social countries in Europe, but lately some political parties are trying to break this down in order to make way for privatising public companies.

[Hayduke]

Yes I agree with Hewson,

I already made my point at another topic about Holland
being a socialist state.

It doesnt matter if you are rich or poor you will almost always
be able to live a good life here in Holland.

[Josip Broz Tito]

Just one question for lenin and Thine, how old are you guys? By your posts, I would say not more then 15.
Read, learn, grow up and then discuss.

[lenin]

well, i'm 20. my dad (who was former CPSU and red army) shares my views as do a lot of russians i know. and if they don't share my views exactly, they agree with them in some ways (like leonid did).

[Josip Broz Tito]

Many Russians support those ideas, not because they are good, but because some other reasons. I'll try to explain. SSSR, during Stalinist regime was a world power, side to side with U$A. Even if country is in deep shit concerning human rights, it is good to feel powerful. It is in human nature. After U$A destroyed communism in late 80s and begging of 90s, Russia became a shit hole (no offence). Even though Russia has great nuclear potential, even though it is a member of UN Security Council, even though it is almost always asked when international politics is discussed, it is a generally known that Russia means little to the decision maker, the U$A. Being on the bottom after being on the top is even more embarrassing then being on the bottom all the time. I can completely understand older Russian generation why they grow those kinds of feelings for Stalinist regime. It is not about Stalin, it is about nostalgia. Nostalgia for the period when SSSR (and Russia) was great power.
But, one thing I don't understand. Why kids like you lenin are obsessed with Stalin? I know it is fancy, but I thought it is fancy for those 15 years old.
Wake up. Have you read anything of Marx, Engels or Lenin? And have you read anything of Stalin?
I have. It shows the difference in intellectual level between the authors. Stalin maybe done the good?! thing in the WWII, but that cannot justify his other actions.
You will see that you will think different in couple of years.

[lenin]

JBT, what you said about russia was 100% spot on!

but about me reading marx. yes of course i have! i've read the maifesto and kapital but i prefer some of his lesser known works. i've read most of lenins stuff like what is to be done and state and revolution. and i've DEFINATLY read stalins works. trotskyism vs leninism is excellent and so are his works on soviet nationality. that was his expertise.
what you are doing is generalising with me. there our thousands (maybe millions) of youngsters who go round waving the hammer and sickle singing the internationale without even knowing who karl marx is. but that doesn't mean i don't know. kids in russia are starting to learn more about communism all the time. even the russia 'nazis' are communists, they are national bolsheviks. don't say i don't know shit just because i am only 20 and you think i'm some blind patriot. i know about communsim. a lot more than some of the psuedo leftists on this forum who will end up members of the USA democrat party.

[RedSovietCCCP]

josip broz tito lets put lenin's view of stalin aside for a second. Lenin and a few others on this web-site know the true meaning of communism. Not all this liberal bullshit that people distorts the main theorys of communism. what do you think? You seem like a educated man/woman.

[lenin]

anyway JBT!!!! why are you communists???? wouldn't have anything to do with the success that tito led yugoslavia to would it? could that be seen as patriotism, or even nationalism, or even....oh no...youre a racist!!!!

[Lefty]

capitalism, of course. I want to be paid proportionatly to how much i work. Of course, i'll get shit for this post, but if capitalism wasnt suited to those already rich, but to those who worked the hardest, it might be a good thing.

[Josip Broz Tito]

OK, let's assume you know a lot about communism. Then, why are you equalising communism with Stalinism? Going around with hammer and sickle DOSN'T MEAN supporting Stalin. In most cases it is revolt against capitalism and all things capitalism brought. I am wearing T-shirt with hammer and sickle, I was living in a country that preferred to be communist. But I don't support Stalinism. Ask people from Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Poland... what do they think about Stalinism. I was lucky because Tito refused Stalinist control over Yugoslavia. Many others weren't such lucky. I will give just one example: I think it was in 1988, I was with my family having vacation at the seaside, somewhere in Montenegro. In the same hotel, there was one Czechoslovakian guy. He was the happiest person in the hotel. He was smiling all the time, singing and paying drinks to everybody. My father was studying in Prague so he could speak Czech, so he asked him: why are you so happy? And the Czech guy responded: Well I am having vacation. We are all having vacation, my father responded. No, you don't understand, the Czech guy said, we from Czechoslovakia are allowed to leave country once in three years, and only if we are going to other communist country!!!
lenin, that is Stalinist type of country. Do you want to live there?

[Josip Broz Tito]

My reason to be communist is Marx's writings. Tito has his part, but how can you call me a nationalist when the country that Tito created doesn't exist any more? Nationalist toward which country?

And I am more anarchist then communist.

(Edited by Josip Broz Tito at 7:37 pm on June 1, 2002)

[RedSovietCCCP]

Josip Broz tito what is communism to you?? What are the main reason marx and engels bring out in there writing for being communism??? I want to here your answer.

[lenin]

titoman, stalinism doesn't just refer to the USSR from 1922-1953. it is a term to describe soviet communism. i like stalin for what he did for the country in WWII and for his economic brilliance. i get my main economic ideas from stalin!
if people are so angry with stalin in eastern europe, how come reform stalinsit parties have been voted back in in countries like poland, hungary, romania, bulgaria? i am aware a vote for these parties is not a vote for another stalin, but it is a vote for a reformed version of stalinism.

[Ernest Everhard]

Quote: from Josip Broz Tito on 6:36 pm on June 1, 2002
My reason to be communist is Marx's writings. Tito has his part, but how can you call me a nationalist when the country that Tito created doesn't exist any more? Nationalist toward which country?

And I am more anarchist then communist.

(Edited by Josip Broz Tito at 7:37 pm on June 1, 2002)


Girabaldi was an italian nationalist long before there was an italy, milosevic there were yugoslav nationalist when the balkans was under austrian and turkish control and there was no yugoslavia. You can be a nationalist to national entities that aren't recognized: Tamil Tigers, Palestinians, Kurds, up to recently east timorians.

[Shock To The System]

Ok, lets clear some stuff up.
Those of you that call yourselfs 'libertarian communists', aren't actually marxists, or 'real communists' as such, because libertarian marxism only came after bakunins death in 1876. Before that, only authoritarian forms of marxism existed.
Though to me, you are 'real' communists because you realise that socialism (social equality) can only be acheived through liberalism, not authoritarianism, like stalinism, and other forms of authoritarian marxism.
'Libertarian communists' don't believe in authoritarian marxist ideals, such as dictating to the proletarian under a party, etc.
So what is Stalinism?
An extreme form of marxist authoritarianism.
But to me, that isn't what socialism truly is, or what it should be.
Socialism to me means complete freedom (liberalisation) and equality.
Social equality is the core idea of socialism, so how can 'state socialism', such as stalinism, represent social equality, when the state itself signifies inequality?
Those who make up a state, be it socialist or capitalist, have more power than those who elected them. Inequality.
In other words, it is impossible for social equality to exist with an authoritarian state, beacuse the state has power over the majority.
This is why Stalinism doesn't fulfil the core socialist ideas of complete social equality.
Therefore, Stalinism is not truly socialist ,in that sense,whilst libertarian marxism and anarchism is.
So who's the 'real' communist?
If you simply (and rather ignorantly) look back to see which came first, you'll find that authoritarian marxism is 'real' communism.
But if you actually look at it to see how each incorporates social equality, you'll find libertarian marxism (and indeed Anarchism) incorporates socialism (social equality) , whilst authoritarian marxism, such as stalinism, does not.
That makes Stalinism , 'psuedo-communism', and makes stalinists the 'psuedo-leftists'.
And it also makes 'Libertarian marxists' and anarchists the true leftists, and my true comrades.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Shock to the system you state that social equality is the core issue of socialism. But in reality and in marx's writing it is ECONOMIC EQUALITY not social equality.

[James]

moan moan moan, thats all many people on here do. Its like a bunch of blind christians arguing about the bible, and quoting shit...why don't you try thinking for your self>?

[lenin]

james, give your opinions in the 'ideas for communsim' thread. until you've made your views clear, you've got no right to moan at anyone else.

[Shock To The System]

CCCP...how can u have economic equality without social equality?
Also, please explain why you believe in economic equality over social equality?
What is the point?
Why fight for economic equality when it won't acheieve , in your opinion, any social equality?
Where's the motivation?

[Fabi]

hey lenin.... since when do YOU make the rules? to me it is pretty clear (if not irrelevant) where james stands...

[lenin]

because i'm fed up with arrogant little fucking pricks who think its good to bad mouth my views when they haven't told me theres!!!! if you have no views and you have hindsight, its easy to just have a go at everything that isn't pefect isn't it????

[Shock To The System]

lol ..calm down psycho......ur actually beginning to sound like stalin.

[boadicea88]

I'd fight for Stalinism, in a heartbeat.

Therefore, I side with Lenin, RedSoviet, StalinSoldiers, and my pal Thine Stalin.

I think that Stalinism is better for the people as a whole, as opposed to capitalism, which (as all you lefties know- or should) is better for a priveleged few and awful for the low men on the totem pole. For example:

My mom and I were unable to get financial aid with our rent- in fact they upped the rent. We may have to move soon, or be evicted. In a Stalinist regime, this wouldn't be a problem.

I am unable to get fin. aid for college, because I don't have a GED, which I can't get coz I have to be 16. As a result, I may not be going to college if my violin and my ironwood carving collection doesn't sell over the weekend. In a Stalinist regime this wouldn't be a problem.

My mom and dad are not working right now, and can't get a job because too many people are currently unemployed, there aren't enough jobs, and it's not economically efficient to hire 2 people to do 2 people's jobs, ya gotta use 1 person to do 2 people's jobs. In a Stalinist regime, this wouldn't be a problem.

I could go on for a while about this, but I prefer to quit now.

Again, I'd fight tooth, nail, and gun for a Stalinist revolution.

(Edited by boadicea88 at 7:29 pm on Sep. 18, 2002)

[Valkyrie]

Bodacia88,
you have a Subcommander Marcos quote while you are hailing Stalinism? You are all fucked up in the head.

You want Stalinism? Good -- Then you can't have your own political opinion. So, shut your mouth, because That's what Stalinism is.

[El Che]

wait a minute, aren`t you a woman? I think that, acording to stalinists, a womans place is in the kitchen washing the dishes and serving the man... You shouldn`t be discussing politics, naughty naughty!

[Solfaxa]

Quote: from lenin on 2:06 pm on May 31, 2002
the political left/right is all about government control of the economy. if you go too far on either wing, you get out on the other. like nazism, its such a right wing ideology (in believing that one race is better than the other), the economy ends up left wing (planned economy) whereas anarchy is so far left wing (believing everyone is equal) it ends up a right wing economy (no government control). anarchy would lead to capitalism in these times. maybe in 10,000 years, it will be possible to live in an anarchist society.


Hi,
x'cuse me, just for the records:
actually, anarchy is about abolition of any kind of authority/domination, which af course does include domination of companies or whatever. since neoliberal capitalism is based on corporate power over the people, a truly anarchist society couldn't possibly lead to it.

[boadicea88]

Yes, El Che, I am a woman. I don't know how true what you said is, but if it's true than I disagree with that aspect of Stalinism. I feel no obligation to follow anyone's example to the word. That leaves me free to divert on some matters.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from boadicea88 on 6:20 pm on Sep. 19, 2002
I don't know how true what you said is, but if it's true than I disagree with that aspect of Stalinism.

I wonder how much else you will discover about Stalinism that you will disagree with...you'd be surprised.

[El Che]

lol, I`m not exactly sure if its true, though I wouldn`t be suprised if it was, but the point I was trying to make is that stalinism is essential reactionary and "conservative". Its right-wing in reality. Dreadful stuff.

[Mazdak]

Seeing and reading the responses to lenin here have solidified my view that the left is way too divided. Side with the capitalists? Side with the enemy, to fight fellow leftists. And you wonder why ther Stalinists dont hesitate to give you a bullet in the back of the head!!

Womans place in the kitchen. So all those women fighting as soldiers in WW2 werent really women??? They were actually men? Or did they just never fight?

You people are so idiotic. Even if i disliked stalinism, i would fight for it then try to use my popularity to destroy it with other leftists. Obviously none of you are clever enough to do so. Sad.

[ThunderStrike]

i would definately stand by a stalinist revolution, actually thats the only kind of revolution i really support, revolutionary in nature and its power against capitalist/fascist power..

an Anarchist revolution is just an Utopian view of marx, an anarchist society can never work WHEN Capitalism is still alive, only when the whole world became communist and after a looooooong war with capitalism and internal Class-war, and after generations (with socialist education) the people will be ready for a state that withers away completely...

anarchists are great to support the revolution and to help the communist party get into power and let them guide the revolution because an anarchist society cant work with capitalism..

[Cassius Clay]

Why is it 'right wing'? Because your history books said that Stalin was 'authoritairian'. It is Trotskyism that is right wing and fascist, 'permanant revolution' just another word for Imperialism. Imposing military discipline in factories, I would call that pretty much right wing.

Oh and bodicea88 do not listen to the stuff about women being condemmed to the household. That is simply a load of rubbish, it is true that sexism existed in the Soviet Union (like in any country) and particularly in the 1920's when the generation who were in their prime had grown up under the Tsar (not the best example of equality) .

But the Soviet government did it's best to better the role of women in society. For example creches (spell ?) were available at the workplace and I'm pretty sure that one of the parents was entitled to 6 months of work when they had a child, although don't quote me on that. Also women were given the vote and the right to abortion (I'm not sure what your view are on that so it could be a bad thing).

Also there is this quite famous poster which was used in the Soviet Union in the 1930's which encouranged women to play a equal role in the workplace. You should also note that the Soviet Union orignally faced quite hostile resistance in the Caucausus when they said it was okay to take the veil of.

So El Che and others please don't accuse Stalin of being a sexist.

[El Che]

stalinists....

[Cassius Clay]

El Che why do you not continue with the debate? You said that the Soviet Union was sexist and that Stalin thought that women should be condemmed to the kitchen. I and Mazdak have given you evidence as to why that is not true and all you say is 'Stalinists.....'. Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. You cannot accept that Trotsky and Trotskyism is exactly the same as Imperialism. Trotsky thought their should actually be 'military discipline' in factories, how is that not fascist? Through his actions in the civil war and his later writings it is obvious the man cared so little for actual human life. How any of you can support him is a mystery, he died the same way he lived bitter to the end and anybody who disagreed with him and his views should of been shot.

[Cassius Clay]

El Che why do you not continue with the debate? You said that the Soviet Union was sexist and that Stalin thought that women should be condemmed to the kitchen. I and Mazdak have given you evidence as to why that is not true and all you say is 'Stalinists.....'. Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. You cannot accept that Trotsky and Trotskyism is exactly the same as Imperialism. Trotsky thought their should actually be 'military discipline' in factories, how is that not fascist? Through his actions in the civil war and his later writings it is obvious the man cared so little for actual human life. How any of you can support him is a mystery, he died the same way he lived bitter to the end and anybody who disagreed with him and his views should of been shot.

You all have admitted that you would actually prefer to fight a actual genuine working class revolution and join the capatalists. And you call your self 'leftists'.

[boadicea88]

Hear, hear, Cassius.

To add to the reasons I gave above for wanting to join a Stalinist Revolution:

Healthcare. My 86 year old grandfather has terminal cancer, and his monthly shots cost about $700 per shot. His doc bills (the whole thing) come to around $1000. Luckily for him, he can afford insurance. If he, like many others under a capitalist regime, was unable to afford the insurance, bye bye would go his shots. Either that, or he'd be paying all of the money from his own pocket. If he couldn't afford the insurance, he sure as hell couldn't afford the doc bill. Therefore he'd go without his shot. I do not have insurance and have not been to the doctor (or the dentist) in years, because of the price. Under a Stalinist regime this would not be a problem.

There are more reasons, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to go into them.

(Edited by boadicea88 at 6:13 pm on Sep. 19, 2002)

[PunkRawker677]

"To add to the reasons I gave above for wanting to join a Stalinist Revolution:

Healthcare. My 86 year old grandfather has terminal cancer, and his monthly shots cost about $700 per shot. His doc bills (the whole thing) come to around $1000. Luckily for him, he can afford insurance. If he, like many others under a capitalist regime, was unable to afford the insurance, bye bye would go his shots. Either that, or he'd be paying all of the money from his own pocket. If he couldn't afford the insurance, he sure as hell couldn't afford the doc bill. Therefore he'd go without his shot. I do not have insurance and have not been to the doctor (or the dentist) in years, because of the price. Under a Stalinist regime this would not be a problem.

There are more reasons, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to go into them. "

And you believe that only under a totalitarian socialist dictatorship you would be able to get free healthcare. Well, under a stalinist system of goverment you better hope the "party" likes you, or they wont even take the shots away -- they will just kill you.

[boadicea88]

Assuming you are correct in that assessment, which I'm not sure of either, at least it wouldn't cost anything! That's more than you can say for capitalism.

[Valkyrie]

YOu're being brainwashed Bodacia. It's really sad to see. The truth is -- none of you or your little friends would be able to handle a Stalinist regime. It's made for the Party-state only. And you will not be part of the "party."

[boadicea88]

L'etat, c'est moi.
Or it will be. I have faith in my leftist beliefs and will fight for them against the capitalists. Sadly I can't say that about you (Not only Paris- all of the "leftists" on this board who said that they would fight against other leftists on the side of the thing that they all say they hate).

[Valkyrie]

YOu know Little Bodacia, I have been fighting this shit for longer than you have been alive. And I have sacrificed MUCH, including many MANY jobs and a marriage with the nice secure life that went with it to make sure my lifestyle lined up with my beliefs so as to not make me a hypocrit. WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME, THEN *MAYBE* MAYBE -- YOU CAN QUESTION ME ABOUT HOW COMMITTED I AM TO THIS CAUSE.

[boadicea88]

I admire you for doing that. My comment was not aimed directly at you.

I am considering giving up the roof over my head and the food on my plate to join with other Leftists and learn to fight capitalism with guns and whatever is at hand.

May I say that it sounds to me like YOU'VE been brainwashed to automatically say "No! Not Stalin! He's evil!"... Stalinism has been demonised for over 45 years, as I'm sure you know... Read the chapter "Stalin's Fingers" in Michael Parenti's book Blackshirts and Reds". Whoever reads it will find that the casualties under Comrade Stalin were nowhere near hundreds of millions, tens of millions, or even tens of thousands.

(Edited by boadicea88 at 10:07 pm on Sep. 19, 2002)

[Cassius Clay]

Once again why is Stalin or Stalinism 'Tolitiarian' or however you spell it? He was elected by the party while the united opposition of Trotsky and Kamenev got less than 1% of the votes. Did you live under Stalin? Because a fairly large majority of those who did are now the people who might play a crucial role in a second revolution in Russia. Oh let me guess they were all Bueracrates.

You think there is going to be a 'Trotskyite' revolution anywhere let alone Russia. Now that Russia is 'liberated' from your Stalinist slavery the workers (those that have heard of the man) do not call for 'Permanent Revolution' or 'Death to the Buecracy'. No they vote in the true Marxists who happen to see Stalin in his true historical place. They do not go on strikes or protests carrying pictures of Trotsky but Stalin. But I guess they were all forced to by the NKVD, er wait it doesn't exist anymore.

As for 'Brainwashing', for years I was told nothing but how wonderful it would of been if Trotsky (who was Lenin's chosen successor of course) had taken over. And I actually bought the crap, until you begin to learn the truth about both Trotsky and Stalin.

How you can all support a man whose whole ideal was simply Imperialism under a different name? If you Trotskyites ever actually come to power are you going to set up 'Military discipline' in factories like your founding father suggested? Ofcourse you will all have to take former Tsar's palaces to live in and sell your memoirs to broadsheets for 75,000 pounds (which today is god knows what).

BTW Boadicea88 I for one have no intention of 'Brainwashing' you. And I'm sorry to hear about your grandad, I take it you live in America. Just another indirect victim of Capatalism, in Europe Capatalists will often tell you that we have a very good health care system. They conviently forget that the way it got like that was because of good old 'Socialist' policies. For example the Labour gov't after the war introduced the reforms that created the NHS in England. As well as the Nationalisation of the post office and other stuff which I should know since I'm studying Politics. Guess I must pay more attention.

[Cassius Clay]

Paris, If what you say is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) then I apologise to you for part of the above post.

[Guest]

Quote: from lenin on 6:59 pm on May 30, 2002
stalin kill me? don't be ridiculous! stalin only killed enemies of the people. like deserters or capitalists. i would of been loyal to the stalinist regime.


HAha,lmao!

What a heap of crap!
Look at all the innocent generals he killed!
You cant expect to win a battle when u equipt people with toothpics & send them in against heavly equipted nazi troops with the best in rifels & training.

Quantity over quality dosent work in warfare.
Dont join the army whatever ya do Einstein.

[boadicea88]

Yes, I live in Amerika, sadly.

I have been "brainwashed" by my whole family (and my culture) to hate Stalin/ism. I am beginning to "wash" my brain clean of the "brainwashing" that I recieved. Imagine the shock they're gonna have when they find out... Ai' ai' ai'. Ma'n'vavsht'is ti'khlirin... that ain't gonna be fun...

I always look forward to your posts, Cassius, I think they are very informative and enlightening.

[Mazdak]

Gues- when ALL YOU HAVE ARE TOOTHPICKS, YOU USE TOOTHPICKS. It is that simple.

[Ymir]

I would join the revolution.

ZA STALINA! URRAH!

[Cassius Clay]

Boadicea88, thanks alot. What really annoys me though is that these so called 'leftists' accuse Stalin of something (eg being Sexist) and then when you prove them wrong they are no where to be seen. I mean I must of posted one particular question a dozen times on this board and have yet to get a response.

Mazdak, it is myth that all the Red Army had to fight with were 'toothpicks'. To the guest either you have got confused with WW1 (when the arm's industries were plauged by buercatic interference and corruption) or you have been watching to much of Enemy at the Gates. I have numerous books (all of them very anti-Stalin) which detail the Eastern front and none of them claim that soldiers were ordered to attack whilst unarmed.

Even the Soviet Union's critics admit that it had incredible manufactoring abilities in the 2nd World War. Simple facts will tell you that literally thousands of T-34's and aircraft were produced, even when the hasty withdrawal to the Urals. So where precisly is the benefit in Stalin (or the Red Army colonels who would of had more say in the matter) sending soldiers to attack unarmed when there were plenty of rifles going around?

'Quantity of quality doesn't work in warfare'. This is what the Red Army found out on June 22nd 1941.

'All the innocent Generals he killed'. The archives will tell you that just 8,500 officers were 'purged'. By purged it is meant demoted, sacked, arrested, imprisoned and a very small minority who were actually executed. Most of those officers were purged because of their aristocratic origins and could not be trusted so they were simply sacked (sounds cruel but would you take the risk?) also quite a few of those officers were sacked because they were incompetent commanders. The majority of those officers 'purged' simply returned to civilian life and quite a few were later reinstated.

BTW boadicea88 do not listen to this stuff about having to agree with everything Stalin did or having 'to hope the party likes you' if you wan't good health care. From my own perspective I do not agree with everything Stalin did, such as the deportations of the Crimean Tartars after the war.

Remember that in 1938 Stalin nominated Malkenkov to be head of the NKVD the politburo then procedded to vote in Beria. You will note that the politburo of 1938 is largely the same as that of 1953, so there go's the myth of Stalin killing everybody who disagreed with him.

Two other examples being the demonstrations of 1927 organised by Trotsky and Zioneve which somehow turned into a small riot (may of been over zealous police but most accounts describe how it was the demonstrator's that attacked party buildings). The second being the Kiev riots of the early 1950's by which time Stalin was supposedly the unquestioned dictator.