Totalitarianist Communists - MORE EVIL THAN BOURGEOIS CAPITA

[Michael De Panama]

I am totally sick of this shit. I can't stand it any longer. I've tried to keep my calm, but I have simply had enough.

The various members on this board who advocate a totalitarian communist establishment are not communists. Communism is a system of equality. That's the basis of it. All those who do not understand this are not communists. Call yourselves anything else, I don't give a fuck. But you are not to call yourselves fucking communists unless you believe in equality among all.

Equality, meaning democracy. If there is a dictatorial state overpowering the petty worker, we have a class division similar to that between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, except expanded out to the scale of an entire nation, making it much, much, much worse. What's more, we have a permanent placement of these classes, identicle in every way to fascism.

Now, what I speak of here is many things. Most obviously, Stalinism and Stalinist sympathy. Beyond that, there have been a few people here who support the Leninist style one-party rule. That right there is a tyrannical idea. It's a fake democracy. It's fucking fascism. If you want to live like that, get out of the fucking movement and go to one of the many Latin American countries that follow this system. If you do not support fair elections, you support class division, and the rest of the movement should not support you.

And then there is Thine Stalin and "Lenin"'s twisted idea that there MUST be a totalitarian state for a communist system to properly work. I responded to Thine Stalin with something I so wish he would have read. He gave me this example:

"This may be a poor comparison but a teacher that puts her students on the honor system and never punishes them, just suggests they don't do it anymore, is a failure. A teacher that is strict, teachers the students how to behave FIRST is a success, when the students have turned into the what she wants them to be, she can become lax, and the students can have more fun, but atleast they know their limits now. If they begin forgetting, back to the strict system, the stalinist system, until they learn.

You see stalinism is needed, once the people have learned, then it can be disposed for a more likeable goverment. "

My response to this, Thine Stalin, is that your totalitarian beliefs for a communist state are only applicable for a pre-industrialized country to successfully become communist. In that sense, I totally agree with you, because there must be a ruling class and a proletariat with which to establish the communist state. However, in the industrial world of today the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie is the necessary evil that will mold the proletariat into fuel for communism. In that sense, I will agree that capitalism is needed. Capitalism is needed for communism to be born. But since the 21st century is an age of worldwide capitalism, why would I strive to further put the power into the hands of the minority? If you think that it is necessary right now, you are fucking twisted. Go march with the Nazis.

I have had enough talk about how the communist state should limit freedom of speech. I have had enough talk about how the communist state should get involved with people's personal lives. It's absolute madness. "Lenin" suggested the prohibition of all "bourgeois sports", including golfing and yachting. As harmless and silly as that might seem, on a broader scale that is some scary shit! Why should the government involve itself in what people do in their personal lives? If this is the communism you strive for, I'll take capitalism anyday!

It's sickening to see these tyrannical totalitarianists under the same label as myself. I do not wish to associate myself with sick totalitarianist swine. You are not my fucking comrades. You are more evil than the bourgeois capitalists could EVER be. You advocate putting the power into the hands of the minority. Capitalists advocate putting the power into the hands of the minority. But you advocate a much greater power. You hurt the movement far greater than the capitalists do. You are far worse than the worst of capitalists. Fuck off. All of you.

Long live democracy, freedom, and equality.


(Edited by Michael De Panama at 10:02 pm on May 29, 2002)

[RedSovietCCCP]

Like Yuri said before, your style of communism will never work. I suggest you listen to what he says. You can tell in his writing he is much smarter than you on the topic of communism. He was actually a member of the most powerful communist party in the world. Lets face it, HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!! The bottom line is your pissed of because he is more knowledgeable about socialism and communism. So YOU FUCK OFF *****. Your starting to piss me off. Don't be a hater because he is smarter than you.

[Michael De Panama]

Oh yes, so much smarter than me. So much more knowledgable than me on the subject of communism. A former KGB member. Yeah. That's why he advocates putting the power into the hands of the minority. Smart guy he is. Surely he must know what he's talking about, since he was a member of the disgusting KGB, a group that went around killing all those who oppose the political ideals of the party, or just went around killing people who supported the ideals of the party just to show everyone else that they won't hesitate to kill them. Surely his totalitarian beliefs are superior to my democratic ones. But then again, his totalitarian beliefs don't resemble anything communism stands for.

You and Yuri must know so much more than more. I mean, look at all the intelligent refutes you gave me:

"Like Yuri said before, your style of communism will never work."

No elaboration. No arguments given aside from this simple statement. Just "you're wrong, I'm right". Man, you should be a fucking politician.

"You can tell in his writing he is much smarter than you on the topic of communism."

No examples, just a statement. You should be a businessman while you're at it.

"Lets face it, HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!"

Can't argue that one!

"The bottom line is your pissed of because he is more knowledgeable about socialism and communism."

Man, it's like you're READING MY FUCKING MIND!! I wish I could be as brainwashed as Yuri.

"So YOU FUCK OFF *****."

Whoa now, that's some deep stuff right there.

"Your starting to piss me off."

Maybe you should punch a hole in the wall. I seem to have that effect on people.

"Don't be a hater because he is smarter than you."

Can't argue that! :)

You pseudo-fascists are just too much for me. You make me think about things in a different light. You stretch my mind. It's just too much. Your one paragraph long "You're just dumb" arguments can't compare with any of my arguments.

Now, if that made you feel better about yourself you may be excused to go play with your toys, child.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 9:56 pm on May 29, 2002)

[RedSovietCCCP]

I'm not going to argue with you. I just seen how you argue. When sombody makes a good point that you don't agree with you just insult them. And I'm the child??? Your the one who needs to grow up little boy. Besides I don't have all day to argue with children such as yourself. I have things to do like actually do something for my cause. I'm the president of the Communist Labour Party at my University. You know you should do something about your cause then just sit on your computer and argue with other people to make yourself feel better. Or have your mommy drive you to the book store so you know what the hell you are talking about when you argue your points. Oh yeah and one last thing, when I come home and been debating with the young republicans and the young democrates at school, I don't feel like aruging with somebody as simple minded as you. O.K. So good bye and have a nice day on your computer.

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

While not a stalinist I would rather live under a one party system than todays trend of false democracy.

[Michael De Panama]

When sombody makes a good point that you don't agree with you just insult them.

And you sure did make a lot of great points.

That's why you resort to personal attacks that don't even apply to me. You're pathetic, child.

[Guest]

I have to say that despite my deep-rooted hatred for Michael de Panama and communism in general, he is correct in his arguement. All you Stalinists can do to argue is tell him he's wrong, but provide little or no actual data or analysis to back-up your claims. Then you direct petty insults at him, as if insults from some Stalinist on a message-board he'll never meet are even going to phaze him. You guys need to work a lot harder and find some real arguements, so you can stop resorting to childish name-calling.

[lenin]

michael de panama, are you the guy leonid punched the wall over? i cans see why as your having the same effect on me! you berate redsoviet for one line answers when your sole reply to my post in 'for libertarian communists' is 'fuck you, lenin' wow! what wit you posses!
lets look at the facts here. people like me, redsoviet, thine stalin, leonid (yuri) etc, we get into power, why? because we apeal to more people, we are more realistic and our ideas are easier to follow. we don't give all this shit about anarchy and such, we just say, join us, and you life will be better! join us, and you will live in a fairer society! join us, if your pissed off with your life!
and how dare you insult leonid for being kgb! he fucking worked hard to get were he is! and he wasn't an informant or anything, he was in administration! he fucking worked hard upholding communism! and he did good service to his country!
i can see why redsoviet didn't ellaborate on why your communism wouldn't work, he would be typing all fucking night!
i'll be back to try to begin (it is a long task) to completly take apart your ideals.

[Michael De Panama]

I noticed how nobody has yet to refute any specific argument I gave in my first post. Hmm...

michael de panama, are you the guy leonid punched the wall over? i cans see why as your having the same effect on me!

Yes, that would be me! By the way, if you are able to, could you take a picture of that hole in the wall and send it to me so that I can use it as my avatar? I'd really appreciate that.

you berate redsoviet for one line answers when your sole reply to my post in 'for libertarian communists' is 'fuck you, lenin' wow! what wit you posses!

I started this topic as a more elaborate reply to your garbage. You made too many bullshit comments for me to reply to in each and every thread. You advocate homophobia, racism, and misogyny. That kind of ignorance is worth nothing more than a simple "fuck you". But then, here I am started a new topic to combat it.

we apeal to more people

Democracy is for the people, not totalitarianism.

we don't give all this shit about anarchy and such, we just say, join us, and you life will be better!

I'm not into anarchy either, moron. I advocate democracy. I want to the power to run my own life the way I want to, without class or wealth getting in the way. What's hard to understand about that?

join us, and you will live in a fairer society!

Bullshit. Join the side of the Stalinist and you sell yourself into slavery. Join the side of the democratic Marxist and you control your own life. What's more fair? Your arguments are weak and subjective. I'm sure more people would rather not put the power into the hands of the minority. That's the whole reason we are rebelling against capitalism.

join us, if your pissed off with your life!

Ah, manipulation and deception! A Stalinist's best weapons. Redirect your anger towards a cause that will ultimately cripple you.

and how dare you insult leonid for being kgb!

I didn't insult him for being in the KGB, I insulted the KGB in general. They were a corrupt and powermad organization. Of course, you would never see it as so.

i can see why redsoviet didn't ellaborate on why your communism wouldn't work, he would be typing all fucking night!

Lame excuse. You certainly know how to cover up your weaknesses. You should become a politician yourself. Besides, you're just saying that my beliefs are more complicated and thought out than yours. Because I can tell you very breifly why yours don't work: LOOK AT THE FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION!

i'll be back to try to begin (it is a long task) to completly take apart your ideals.

Oh, I hope I don't overwork you there.

[lenin]

why won't your style of comunism work? well for a start, you are not harsh enough. you would let capitalists walk all over you and your government would be doomed to failure. without a strict police force to guard the centrally planned economy, the economy becomes liberal, when it goes liberal, it goes capitalist. liberalism IS capitalism.
FUCK LIBERALISM, fucking liberals make me so fucking angry! its all this 'lets all live together as one big happy family' well guess what? we aint one big fucking happy family! we've fucking hated each other since the dawn of man and you fucking rich kids with a conciounce think you can change us for the better. i fucking hate todays liberal politically correct society! all it is is fucking MTV fucking mult-culterul fucking gay shit! fuck that! fucking capitalist bastards! who gives a fuck about fucking gays! what about the fucking workers who have been exploited for fucking time!
i fucking work my fucking ass off every day (nights actually) for a fucking shit wage! i get paid fuck all, 180 punds a week! for busting my fucking bollocks day in day out and the fucking fat cat at the top fucking rakes in the money why? because his fucking dad gave him the company! how come MTV don't dovot nights to me, the fucking exploited worker! the give nights to gays don't they? they have a fucking gay night! i'm so fucking pissed of with this liberal world sometimes! do you know why i'm a stalinist? i don't want equality, i want fucking revenge! i want to kill that fucking prick who i work for! who makes his money off my fucking hard work! he's done fuck all his life and i've had to fucking work like fuck just to get 180 pounds a week! he probobly earns that an hour, fucking prick! and when the time comes, this fuckers views should not be heard! thats why i'm a fucking stalinist!

[lenin]

i apologise for that last post. i'm going to work in about 2 hours and everytime i think of it, it makes me so angry! i'll come back later with a more civilised argument.

[lenin]

michael, the place where i work, i am starting to organise a communist organisation. do you know what the majority of the workers say to me? they can't be bothered to get involved in politics but they would support a dictator who would rule on behalf of there interests. this is why democracy doesn't work. the people who are being oppressed, are the people who don't know it! even if they do know it, what can they do? vote for the democrats? or the labour party? sure, these parties are 'left wing', but they don't look after the prolateriat like the communists do!
your views on communism are un-realistic because they are aginast human nature. mine could be put in place in any country in the world tommorow because they are realisitc.
as i said in my more vitriolic responce, liberalism will lead to capitalism because there are always people out there who want more, and a lot more! in my system of government, the power would be in the hands of a minority, yes. but you could easily get into that minority if you wanted too. understand? everyone is born EQUALLY! no heriditary privalages! in a bourgeois society, you can buy your way into power like bush did. that is unfair.
i don't like to use a capitalist argument but i will have too. what you are advocating, WILL lead to what i am advocating. totalitarianism! becaue there are very greedy people about, and these greedy people usually find a way of getting what they want. they must be stopped, they must be stopped by force! that is authoritarian. that is why it is necessary.
as i do not fully understand your communist views. why don't you do what i did in the 'theory' forum and list your core points about economic and social issues. that will make it easier for me to argue my case.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from lenin on 12:21 am on May 30, 2002
why won't your style of comunism work? well for a start, you are not harsh enough. you would let capitalists walk all over you and your government would be doomed to failure. without a strict police force to guard the centrally planned economy, the economy becomes liberal, when it goes liberal, it goes capitalist. liberalism IS capitalism.
FUCK LIBERALISM, fucking liberals make me so fucking angry! its all this 'lets all live together as one big happy family' well guess what? we aint one big fucking happy family! we've fucking hated each other since the dawn of man and you fucking rich kids with a conciounce think you can change us for the better. i fucking hate todays liberal politically correct society! all it is is fucking MTV fucking mult-culterul fucking gay shit! fuck that! fucking capitalist bastards! who gives a fuck about fucking gays! what about the fucking workers who have been exploited for fucking time!
i fucking work my fucking ass off every day (nights actually) for a fucking shit wage! i get paid fuck all, 180 punds a week! for busting my fucking bollocks day in day out and the fucking fat cat at the top fucking rakes in the money why? because his fucking dad gave him the company! how come MTV don't dovot nights to me, the fucking exploited worker! the give nights to gays don't they? they have a fucking gay night! i'm so fucking pissed of with this liberal world sometimes! do you know why i'm a stalinist? i don't want equality, i want fucking revenge! i want to kill that fucking prick who i work for! who makes his money off my fucking hard work! he's done fuck all his life and i've had to fucking work like fuck just to get 180 pounds a week! he probobly earns that an hour, fucking prick! and when the time comes, this fuckers views should not be heard! thats why i'm a fucking stalinist!


11% of this argument was the word "fuck". I'm being serious. I counted up the number of times you used the word "fuck" and calculated it. Good job, idiot. By the way, I'm not a rich kid with a conscience. I don't watch MTV. And I really don't know what you mean by "the give nights to gays don't they? they have a fucking gay night!". Actually, I have no idea what about three fourths of your post was saying.

michael, the place where i work, i am starting to organise a communist organisation. do you know what the majority of the workers say to me? they can't be bothered to get involved in politics but they would support a dictator who would rule on behalf of there interests.

And what if this dictator stops ruling on behalf of their interests? Are you going to elect another dictator? What would happen? You'd get fucking killed. Ask your co-workers if they'd rather a dictator rule ruthlessly "in their favor", or if they'd rather rule their own lives. Your ignorant heroism is identicle to fascist ideology.

this is why democracy doesn't work. the people who are being oppressed, are the people who don't know it! even if they do know it, what can they do? vote for the democrats? or the labour party? sure, these parties are 'left wing', but they don't look after the prolateriat like the communists do!

They don't know they're being oppressed, huh? You sick fuck. If they know they are being oppressed in a democracy, they vote against whatever they disagree with. By the way, don't you fucking call yourself a communist. Communism is about equality. You said it yourself, "FUCK EQUALITY". Don't you fucking call yourself a communist. I'm a communist. You're nothing more than a proletarian fascist.

your views on communism are un-realistic because they are aginast human nature. mine could be put in place in any country in the world tommorow because they are realisitc.

First off, you don't know what human nature is. No one can define human nature. So don't pull that shit on me. Second, your beliefs are not realistic, because your beliefs were implemented in the Soviet Union and failed. Obviously something went wrong in the USSR. Explain that. You'll probably tell me some shit like, "It's people like you that were the cause of it's collapse." Which, I will answer, is why your totalitarian beliefs are flawed. There will always be an opposition.

as i said in my more vitriolic responce, liberalism will lead to capitalism because there are always people out there who want more, and a lot more!

Congradulations, that made absolutely no sense.

in my system of government, the power would be in the hands of a minority, yes. but you could easily get into that minority if you wanted too. understand? everyone is born EQUALLY! no heriditary privalages! in a bourgeois society, you can buy your way into power like bush did. that is unfair.

If your views contradicted the previously established views of the minority, you would never get in, understand? What good is it to participate in the minority when you yourself can not change the way your own life is? The rich minority, be it the bourgeoisie or the Stalinist regime, will exploit the workers. The rich minority serves no function. The people should rule themselves. The proletariat should keep their production and divide it equally. The people should have equal say in the government.

WHAT YOU ADVOCATE IS NOT COMMUNISM! IT'S PROLETARIAN FASCISM! You can advocate proletarian fascism all you want, but don't you dare associate it with a system that is built on equality.

i don't like to use a capitalist argument but i will have too. what you are advocating, WILL lead to what i am advocating. totalitarianism! becaue there are very greedy people about, and these greedy people usually find a way of getting what they want. they must be stopped, they must be stopped by force! that is authoritarian. that is why it is necessary.

It's much less likely for a greedy person to get into power when there is no money OR power to lust over. I'm never going to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism.

as i do not fully understand your communist views. why don't you do what i did in the 'theory' forum and list your core points about economic and social issues. that will make it easier for me to argue my case.

Fine. Later, I will.

[lenin]

'the soviet union failed'. for a start, that point is debatable (but that is another argument). why did it collapse? simple, it wasn't ready for glasnost! we should of done what china has done. first, sort the economy out, then start thinking about free speech. anyway, 40% of people still vote from the kprf (which is stalinist BTW!). and the reason putin got in was because he advocated many stalinist principles. i'd be willing to bet you haven't seen the last of stalinism in russia (but not a stalnists dictator). maybe some sort of coalistion with kprf and a centre-left party, who knows?
reffering to my first post, i have already said that the post was un-called for in context of our argument. i was just pissed off for a while. the point i was making is that, MTV have nights where if you look in the corner of the screen it will say 'gay night'. meaning they are devouting a whole night to gay music or gay programs. it just annoys me that the persecution of gays etc gets more coverage than the persecution of the workers.
and when i said 'fuck equality' i afterwards said i wanted revenge. revenge first, then equality. because after all those who have deserved to die, die, there will be equality.
if the dictator stopped ruling on behalf of the prolateriats interest? well, he wouldn't! for a start, the process in which he got there would be from democratic centralism. democratic centralism could aslo easily remove him. remember, it wouldn't just be a one man dictatorship.
my point about liberalism was, if you give greedy people liberty, they will get what they want. if they have freedom, they will some how find a way of manipulating the situation so that they get more than the average man for un-just reasons.
human nature? i can't even be fucked to get into an argument about that. but i think we both know it is most mens human nature to better themselves. again though, its another debate.
prolaterian facism? hmmm, good word actually! i may use that.
anyway, i'll wait till you've posted your views till i rip apart your 'communist' ideals.

[Guest]

Hey Lenin. You really should buff up on the English language, cause you sure suck at using it. It might help your arguements to use properly spelled words so that someone may actually understand your ranting and raving.

[RedSovietCCCP]

First of all michael, Have you ever read the communist Manifesto?? If you have then you should of know that it clearly states, "In this sense, the theory of Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: ALBOLITION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY" It does not state as you put it " communism is equality" Yeah equality for the working class. Communism is all about the working class and the class struggle. Abolotion of private property!!!!! Not giving gays the right too show off and all that other shit (don't get me wrong I don't have a problem gays but it ahould be kept behind closed doors). It's about the working class. Thats why it sayes in the end, " Working Men Of All Countries Unite!!!!! I guess the manifesto was to complicated to read for you michael.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Soviet Union fell because of there military spending. This is a proven fact, If they would have budgeted there money better, the soviet union would have surpassed the U.S. as the world's economic super power. And the fact I just gave you Michael is writin in the intro of the communist Manifesto I have. You could always research it on the internet also. So there you go Michael, proving you wrong again. Soviet Union style of communism works. Oh yeah it also states" The demise of the ussr and the socialist camp had absolutey nothing to do with Marx, Marxism, or communism. I forgot to put it in my above reply, the manifesto states "Economic equality is socialism. See that word Economic Michael??????? your reading must be horrible!!!!

[CheGuevara]

I'm not going to risk my life and the lives of my comrades to fight a revolution, just to let the still-brainwashed by years of capitalist propaganda general population vote it out. When the capitalist brainwashing has been destroyed, then we can talk about a multi-party system. Until then, a democratical centralist party is the best we can do.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:16 am on May 30, 2002
I'm not going to risk my life and the lives of my comrades to fight a revolution, just to let the still-brainwashed by years of capitalist propaganda general population vote it out. When the capitalist brainwashing has been destroyed, then we can talk about a multi-party system. Until then, a democratical centralist party is the best we can do.

Well said.

The bourgeois will still have great assets and will still remain a big influence if we go to elections with capitalist parties shortly after a socialist government comes to power (by whichever means, even if not by a revolution). I would support parties which take different stands on social issues, however right-wing economic parties will only make it harder to acheive communism. If that is the goal, it is completely pointless to have free elections with those parties.

[RGacky3]

I would much rather be working for a totalitarian government, that at least trys and helps the people. than a buisiness man that will exploit you with any means possible to get $$$

[Anarcho]

So he had the good fortune to be born into wealth. big deal. why don't you try to educate him? Or, quit, if you hate the job so much, and get a new one? If you are as intelligent as you claim to be, a better paying job shouldn't be hard for you to find.

Lenin used the middle and upper classes. He didn't liquidate them, he used them.

So what happens when the table turns? If revolution comes, and you get hooked up, do you liquidate him just because of the circumstances of his birth? Why? What if he wants to join up?

So what if MTV caters to minorities? Why should that offend you? The majority of their programming is designed for the average person in their demo. Why should them making an attempt at equality (even temporary) be such a bad thing?

[Capitalist Fighter]

Michael, though our political inclinations may differ, i sure prefer your political system over that of Lenin's and RedSovietCCCP, etc. Freak these guys seem as if they are lapdogs of Yuri and they side with Stalinists. You guys must think you are such hardass cause you love dictators and stuff yet you complain that your dictatorial boss and this dictatorial system makes you work long and unfair hours.

[Anarcho]

Quote: from Capitalist Fighter on 9:02 am on May 30, 2002
Michael, though our political inclinations may differ, i sure prefer your political system over that of Lenin's and RedSovietCCCP, etc. Freak these guys seem as if they are lapdogs of Yuri and they side with Stalinists. You guys must think you are such hardass cause you love dictators and stuff yet you complain that your dictatorial boss and this dictatorial system makes you work long and unfair hours.

Ah, but see, under the system they want, they would be on top. They have no idea what it's like to truly suffer living under a Stalinist regime. It doesn't matter if he was only an analyst, Yuri still had that KGB connection, which meant he was above the common rabble.

Ah well. In the end, no political system on Earth can make you a good person, or a hard worker, or a productive member of society.

[guerrillaradio]

I'm sick of neo-fascist communists posing under the guise of Stalinism. Face it, in between the years of 1930-55 (and maybe some time before and after), America was a better country than Russia, both economically and morally. Were there any purges in America?? Not millions of people. Were there gulags or labour camps?? Was there free speech in the USSR?? Was there mass starvation in America (of millions of people)?? Was there a secret police so rigid that to save yourself you had grass up someone else, be they innocent or guilty (I know the CIA and FBI are pretty bad, but they never reached KGB levels)?? I'm not supporting or condoning America, I'm just comparing two huge evils.

(Incidentally, in all your talk of what is "natural", you seem to have forgotten that quite possibly the most natural and basic human right is that to speak his mind and choose who governs him. Surely??)

I support capitalism over Stalinism 100%. Can you not see what this oh-so-wonderful regime has done to North Korea. People out there are so starved that they are forced to eat grass!!

[lenin]

anarcho, to be honest, i never claimed to be intelligent. i could get another job, but i doubt it would be better pay. because i came over here late, i didn't hardly get english education so finding a better job would be very hard. i am going to go to university though but i may go in russia because it is free over there.
its not like i'm some whning lazy 'commie' who doesn't want to work hard and get paid the same as a doctor, i want to get paid what i am worth. my boss does nothing! and he earns all the money, what is fair about that? educate him? if someone said to you, you are going to earn 2000 pounds a week for doing nothing, would you want to be educated? i don't think so!
anyway, back to politics. like redsoviet said, where in the manifesto does it stress equality for all? where does it promote gay rights? it doesn't even stress black rights! marx was known to use the 'n' word quite frequently! the point is, communism, in its purest form, represents equality for the working class. it is equality amongst workers. not everyone gets paid the same, but you get paid according to how hard you work and how important your job is. many liberals have simply jumped on the communist bandwagon to further there stupid causes. i say, give communism back to who it belongs, the prolateriat of all nations!

[Thine Stalin]

I didn't really care to look at this because I know all I'll get from micheal as responses are either insults or long replies of him repeating himself, its just a waste of time.

But in answer to him saying the minority would still rule, well.. you're wrong.

Once the teacher does become more lax, he will get down to more of the level of the students. He may as well be non-existant, and he'll use the students opinions on every choice he makes, utopian communism.

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin you fool, in communism you don't get "paid". You get rewarded. From each according to his ability to each according to his need.

[Fabi]

well, the communist manifesto is totally neutral to jews, gays, blacks. or at least it should be. yes, it DOES PROMISE equality. because it promises equality for the proletariat. so if you are a GAY, JEWISH, BLACK WORKER, you are still PART OF THE PROLETARIAT.

proletarier aller länder vereinigt euch? WELL: OF ALL COUNTRIES. so all AFRICAN countries would count, too, including people who are BLACK.

the evil is totalitarianism. COMMUNISM IS OPPOSED TO CAPITALISM BECAUSE CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITIVE. any kind of totalitarianism is.
TYRANNY FOR COMMUNISM is like
FUCKING FOR VIRGINITY.... ;)

gosh-darnit... ;)

[lenin]

capitalist fighter, what the fuck are you calling me a fool for? ok, you don't get paid you get rewarded, its the same meaning really. i said paid because i was speaking for todays society. if communism was implemented today, it would take time to replace money so you would still get paid.
don't even bother resorting to personal insults as it is the stupididst thing someone can do when there on an anonomus internet board. whats the point in it?

[RedSovietCCCP]

This is a reply to capitalist fighter, guerrillaradio, and fabi. Capitalist fight you don't make any real points so I'm not going to bother with you. Guerrillaradio your a fucking idiot. Do some resereach on the internet, like I said before the USSR would have surpassed the U.S. as the economic super power. It's even in my American published Communist Manifesto. And to fabi see when you said the manifesto should be neutral to gays etc.... or at least it should be, this just shows how many people distort what the manifesto is trying to say. I'm going to say this one last time communism doesn't mean equality, it means ECONOMIC equality. And I will quote the manifesto once again, " In this sense, the theory of communist may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition Of Private Property." There you go thats what communism is. Don't distort it. RGacky makes a good point when he says that he would rather have a totalitarian goverment that at least helps the people than a buisiness man that will expliot you any means possible for $$$. Rgacky, lenin, thin stalin and others... know what it means to be true communists. IT"S ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS. One last thing, Fabi the rest of the stuff you wrote I have know idea what you are trying to say.

[lenin]

'well, the communist manifesto is totally neutral to jews, gays, blacks. or at least it should be'

have you read the manifesto? 'or at least it should be', that sounds to me like you haven't! to be fair, the communist manifesto is netrul to ethnic races, but many of marx and engles work isn't. marx was an anti-semite and engles was a pure racist (he called for destruction of 'slav babarians'). i am not saying this is good (after all, i am slavic!), but it just proves that marx was writing for the working class, not for liberalisation.
there are many minority groups that are enemies of the working class movement because of its authoritarian past. these include gays and jews (like it or not!). there are also ethnic groups who are more freindly to communism. these include africans, slavs and orientals. of course, a jew can be a communist just as an african can be an anti-communist, but on the whole, certain groups have been more aggressive against communism movement.

[Fabi]

yes, i did read the manifesto. the 'should be' part was just refering to the fact that marx and engels maybe didnt WANT it to be that way, but going strictly by the manifesto racism and antisemitism or homophobia are totally irrelevant...

but i think engels was simply referring to people as 'barbarians', who did not believe in the revolution. he was very much in favor of countries who where for a revolution. we discussed that a few weeks ago.

also i know that marx did write several antisemtitic texts... but i personally think that his antisemitism and engels' 'racism' contradict the manifesto. and i have told you why.

if you go strictly by the manifesto, then there is no place for racism, homophobia or antisemitism...

but, as always, i might be wrong... ;)

[lenin]

some of that is true, yes. but the communist manifesto is basically an economic philosophy. it doesn't really represent marx's political or social beliefs. go to redsovietccps's thread called 'true communists' this basciallt says the truth, that communism is an economic theory and can be used in a number of different social theories.

[Fabi]

i think BECAUSE communism is simply about ECONOMY, all social issues can be sorted out independently.

redsoviet... i hope you at least noticed that i wasnt trying to be unreasonable...
as i already said, i did read the manifesto. i have to admit, though, that i didnt read any of the texts that could have to do with marx' opinions on other issues besides the economic ones...
you know, i am just some kid, and i dont have unlimited time, so i have to see what i read, and what i wont read.... i want to read some chomsky, maybe lenin, to find out about his opinions....
but i am busy with non-political stuff such as literature, music and 'philosophy', too...

i still think that everyone should be treated without any prejudice...

[James]

I am with the anti-totalitarian side. No matter its shape or form. I'm just really against it. i've written a more detailed anaylis in that other thread.

James

[Michael De Panama]

My reply to lenin:

why did it collapse? simple, it wasn't ready for glasnost! we should of done what china has done. first, sort the economy out, then start thinking about free speech. anyway, 40% of people still vote from the kprf (which is stalinist BTW!).

Yeah. And look how well China is doing right now. It's nothing more than a nation-sized sweatshop. The government is fully involved with free trade with multinational corporations. China's not a successfull communist nation either. I can't even call them proletarian fascists, because the revolution itself held the peasants, the petty bourgeoisie, as the vanguard. Why don't you go to China and see how that's like? Go on. Escape the evils of capitalism and work in the fucking salt mines for twelve hours a day. And if you have more than two kids, the government will come down and fucking kill it. Go see how you like that.

and the reason putin got in was because he advocated many stalinist principles. i'd be willing to bet you haven't seen the last of stalinism in russia (but not a stalnists dictator). maybe some sort of coalistion with kprf and a centre-left party, who knows?

Who says I like Putin? I'm no capitalist. And of all capitalists, I really don't like him.

reffering to my first post, i have already said that the post was un-called for in context of our argument. i was just pissed off for a while. the point i was making is that, MTV have nights where if you look in the corner of the screen it will say 'gay night'. meaning they are devouting a whole night to gay music or gay programs. it just annoys me that the persecution of gays etc gets more coverage than the persecution of the workers.

Really? They do that? So I'm guessing you're the rich little kid who watches MTV if you knew that. Still, that's their TV station and not yours. If you ran a TV station, maybe you could have Proletariat Night. I don't see why you should be so offended that someone is helping someone else other than you with another cause. You're just a spoiled little MTV watching punk.

and when i said 'fuck equality' i afterwards said i wanted revenge. revenge first, then equality. because after all those who have deserved to die, die, there will be equality.

Um. I don't really care if you correct yourself. That's pretty much the same thing as "fuck equality". Revenge is for spoiled little rich MTV watching punks.

if the dictator stopped ruling on behalf of the prolateriats interest? well, he wouldn't! for a start, the process in which he got there would be from democratic centralism. democratic centralism could aslo easily remove him. remember, it wouldn't just be a one man dictatorship.

Yeah, and what if the ruling party stopped working on behalf of proletarian interests? After all, they are the rulers of an entire nation of workers. Just as what happened in Russia, the ruling class would become nothing more than a bourgeoisie. They exploited the workers, and killed all those who didn't follow. Democratic centralism is a load of bullshit.

my point about liberalism was, if you give greedy people liberty, they will get what they want. if they have freedom, they will some how find a way of manipulating the situation so that they get more than the average man for un-just reasons.

Only evil people think that people are evil by nature.

human nature? i can't even be fucked to get into an argument about that.

*Snickers*

What did you just say?

but i think we both know it is most mens human nature to better themselves. again though, its another debate.

No, neither of us know that. I don't even believe that. Human nature is not something that can be clearly defined. Capitalist nature certainly is applicable to the nature to better themselves, but this is not true about all human beings. Men can work together and better themselves as well as one another if that is the atmosphere that they are brought up it. You can not tell me that capitalist nature is the correct human nature. If so, explain to me how feudalism ever even existed.

prolaterian facism? hmmm, good word actually! i may use that.

Great. Call yourself that instead of a communist, and we can both be happy.

[Michael De Panama]

My reply to RedSovietCCCP:

Idiot. You completely took that line out of context. I know that line very well. I am in complete agreement with the abolition of private property. However, Marx's point was that the bourgeoisie are the only ones who actually have any property. Therefore, everyone would be equal. Communism is a system of social equality, not just economic equality. Marx even later stated in the Manifesto that capital itself is a social power, not an economic power.

And yes, you are still a proletarian fascist.

I copied and pasted that from the other post you felt you needed to repeat yourself in, using such a brilliant point.

But anyway, regardless of the circumstances, the Soviet Union collapsed because something went wrong. If something went wrong then obviously there is a major flaw in the system, and repeating it would be a big mistake.

So there you go Michael, proving you wrong again. Soviet Union style of communism works.

No, you didn't prove me wrong. All you did was give an excuse for the USSR's collapse. And what the fuck do you mean by "again"? You have yet to ever prove me wrong, child.

the manifesto states "Economic equality is socialism. See that word Economic Michael??????? your reading must be horrible!!!!

And it also makes no distinction between what is economic and what is social. Besides, just because that sentence didn't include the word "social" doesn't make the literal meaning correct. You take words too far out of context. Your reading IS horrible. Socialism isn't even economic equality. Communism is. Socialism is the transition between capitalism and communism. It's not complete equality. Communism is social equality.

Capitalist fight you don't make any real points so I'm not going to bother with you.

Bullshit. He made great points that you either ignored, or were too stupid to understand.

You make it a point to tell the whole world about your possession of the manifesto. Such a point that I would assume that you just recently got your hands on it. Have you ever read anything else by Marx? Capital even?

It doesn't really matter, by the way, what is written in the introduction of your Communist Manifesto. Mine talks about Marx and Engel's life. Who cares? It's not like Karl Marx rose from the dead and wrote an introduction explaining the fall of the USSR. That was written by some ordinary guy, not anybody more credible than you or me (especially not you, child).

Fabi:
i think BECAUSE communism is simply about ECONOMY, all social issues can be sorted out independently.

No no no. Communism is about social equality, not just economic. Either way a dictator or a ruling party still makes more money in a Stalinist regime than the majority of the population.

[RedSovietCCCP]

yeah I told you what went wrong with the ussr, do your homework and you would know the samething that I do. I didn't give you a excuse that is a proven fact dumb shit. do some research for once in your life. And that guy your talking about isn't a ordnary guy like you said he was. He was a expert on marxism and a marxist professor at a university. So he knows a lot more than you dumb shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hehehe........... Proven you wrong once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lenin]

de panama, my freind has sattelite and somties when i am there, MTV is on. how does that make me rich. you ignorant prick! i work 5 days a week from 2am-10am for 180 pounds a week! how does that make me rich? you ignorant fucking idiot! you have no idea, so don't comment! don't coment on what you don't now, like about communism!

[Michael De Panama]

Haha, is that all you got for me?

[Edelweiss]

I think it's time again for some clear words: I would rather live in a western capitalist state than in a totalitarian police state as all the pseudeo-leftists here are promoting it. I'm sick of all you misguided Stalinist sickos. You are a shame for this community. Leave it now, you are wasting my bandwidth, I didn't made this site to provide a plattform to red fascists. Go back to your little poltical sects and pray to your great mass murderer Stalin! YOU ARE A PAIN IN MY ASS!

[lenin]

i'll give you a more in-depth relpy later.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Micheal do you do anything in your community to expand your so called communist beleifs. I doubt it. Like I said before I am head of the commuinist labor party at my univeristy. A lot of people are joining because what it has to offer for the working class and what the true meaning of communism is. On sunday mornings I do volunteer labor to set a personal example of communist dedication and sacrifice. I got this idea from Che. Maybe you should go to gay clubs every sunday and set a example for your idealist so called communist movement. You have no idea what communism is about. Do something for the lower class or do some volunteer work to set a example. Oh but I forgot your not even a communist. You just woke up one morning and decided it would be cool to become a communist or lets just say try to be a communist!!

[lenin]

"Maybe you should go to gay clubs every sunday and set a example for your idealist so called communist movement."

ha ha ha, fucking hilarious!!!!!! i had to aplaud that one comrade!

[STALINSOLDIERS]

you know micheal de panama im sick of you, you are sickening me, your weak so called communist thoughts wont work said by comrade yuri...so i say you shut up sit down and listen to the elderly and experts they know what they talk about..

[STALINSOLDIERS]

and for malte that pain in your ass was a guy putting something up there...........the ones that is sicken me are the weak ones like pacifest..what the hell do you all think your going huh you think protesting or handcoffing your self to a bar would get you anywhere no i dont think so...the stalinist here know what there talking about and what to do more then you malte..there extremist buy me im my own ideas...i support yuris thine stalin and thier ideas....why cause they know whats right and wrong...but malte what are you doing your weak you aint doing shit...at least the stalinist are spreading and what you pacifest are here in this port eating shit..

[Edelweiss]

I'm not a pacisfist, kiddie! You would believe that if I would meet you face to face. :)

[James]

I'm sick of you wankers now, i'm not going to even try to be nice to ANY of you fascists.

Here, have a little fable...


" one day the sun and the wind were talking. The wind claimed to be much more mighty than the sun, and wanted to prive it. So he said "you see that old man down there with a coat on; i bet i can get it off him faster than you"

So the sun went behind a cloud and the wind blew...and blew...and blew, but the stronger he blew the stronger the old mans grip got upon his old coat.

Then the sun said "ok, now my turn..." The wind stopped and let the sun try.

The sun came from behind the cloud and smiled upon the old man. The old man started to sweat as it got hotter and hotter. So he slipped his coat off to cool down. "

The point of this story is that you can't force any one to do anything. You need them to want to do it.


the ones that is sicken me are the weak ones like pacifest..what the hell do you all think your going huh you think protesting or handcoffing your self to a bar would get you anywhere no i dont think so...the stalinist here know what there talking about and what to do more then you malte..there extremist buy me im my own ideas...i support yuris thine stalin and thier ideas....why cause they know whats right and wrong...but malte what are you doing your weak you aint doing shit...at least the stalinist are spreading and what you pacifest are here in this port eating shit..

Lets see this clever little stroke of genious...Oh so the pacifists are the weak ones? Its much harder to stand there and let a man hit you, than to lose your temper and hit back. I of course will defend my self if attacked though, because i am weak minded. You however are very weak minded.

The stalinists now what they are talking about? erm...HAHAHAHA!!!

Just from today i've seen many of you idiots demonstrate your double standards. The truth is, is that most of you don't have a clue what your going on about. Your nothing better than fucking nazis. I can't be arsed replying to the rest of your post. Come back once you have grown a brain cell or something,

James

[RedSovietCCCP]

Uh-oh james isn't going to be nice anymore!!!! James you grow a fucking brain cell. you and all the other idiots don't know what the true meaning of communism is. Jesus, how many times do I have to say this to you fucks. ITS ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS and ABOLITION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. This is the main issue of communism. Not your made up liberal bullshit. Its all about expoition of the working class and I want to get rid of the expoition of my fellow workers and you dare call me a facist. FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! I"M THE TRUE COMMUNIST, LENIN, THINE STALIN, STALIN SOILDERS and OTHERS ARE TOO.

[lenin]

oh no! thine stalin, SS, redsoviet, we best stop being stalinists because james isn't going to be nice to us anymore!!!! thats ruined my day that has james. i'm going to go burn my communist manifesto now because how could i possibly continue being a communist if i knew it meant you not being 'nice' to me. you moron!

[STALINSOLDIERS]

yeah fuck you james you aint shit man we thine stalin,lenin,red soviet, are the true ones we would fight for the cause we would die for communism....but you james what would you do, stay here and talk your ideas instead of spreading your ideas trougout the real society and not only the internet.....shit the real ones are us we shouldnt be banned or only can saw certain words or post in certain places we should talk everywhere...long lives our revolution comrades

[IzmSchism]

dogma kills....and you guys are going down with the ship. i.e, STALINSOLDIERS, lenin, RedSovietCCCP......

[James]

ooooooooooooh! toys out of the cradel...

It was more to my self, because i make it my goal to be nice to people, who ever they are. You however are just plain insulting. I like it how i tell you a little fable, and tell you to grow a brain cell, and suddenly i'm an enemy of the soviet union!!! LOL or should i say some of the "stalinists" on che-lives...

What really is your problem?

You wouldn't die for communism, you'd die to prove your point though. And in this case you point is utter bullshit. Its so crap i can't even see your point anymore. The only thing i've gathered is that your a bunch of national socialists...

Care to prove me wrong?

It seems that your so ready to prive your self that your the real origional communists! But who are you proving anything to? To me and others you are proving that you really are retarded, whilst to you, maybe this is "communism".

Grow up please, so i can talk to you normally.

James

[RedSovietCCCP]

First of all james I thanked you for having a mature discussion eariler. but in your later replys you call me a fucking nazi and tell me to grow a brain cell. And know your telling me to grow up because I responded how you responded. You don't make sense james. And how is my point utter bullshit, uh james??? tell me how my point is utter bullshit smart guy!!!!

[RedSovietCCCP]

Nobody has yet to prove me wrong about true communism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lenin]

thats becaue no-one fucking can!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

*Amused*

Uh, I have, child.

[lenin]

well if you would be so kind to re-direct me to where you did and i will take your post apart again!

ps get a new fucking vocbulary. or at least find some new insults. the 'child' one is getting tedious.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Micheal you sure did prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!! At first micheal I thougth you where semi-educated but I guess not!!

[Michael De Panama]

But just because you ignored it the first time, I guess I'll have to do it again.


Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 8:29 pm on May 30, 2002
Uh-oh james isn't going to be nice anymore!!!! James you grow a fucking brain cell. you and all the other idiots don't know what the true meaning of communism is. Jesus, how many times do I have to say this to you fucks. ITS ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS and ABOLITION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. This is the main issue of communism. Not your made up liberal bullshit. Its all about expoition of the working class and I want to get rid of the expoition of my fellow workers and you dare call me a facist. FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! I"M THE TRUE COMMUNIST, LENIN, THINE STALIN, STALIN SOILDERS and OTHERS ARE TOO.


True communism does include the abolition of private property. However, it is much more than that. As a Marxist, I agree with the abolition of private property. In what way am I not a true commie?

Communism is not just abolition of private property. Marx elaborated on this, but you chose to ignore it. Communism is aboust social and economic equality.

Marx, by the way, WAN'T THE FIRST FUCKING COMMUNIST!

This is the best point I have seen regarding your idiotic babbling:


Quote: from libereco on 6:41 pm on May 30, 2002
arguing about the exact words of Karl Marx is idiotic. Marx was not a perfect human being either, and just because he said A is true that doesn't make A true, or disprove B.

You're treating Marx as if you were a Christian talking about Jesus.

I don't see how your little argument proves my argument false. I agree with the abolition of private property. I also agree with the abolition of the ruling class, which is also a part of Marxist ideology. You and "Lenin", on the other hand, advocate the replacement of the ruling class with one much more oppressive. You aren't true communists. You aren't even false communists. You simply are not communists. You are proletarian fascists.

[Michael De Panama]

By the way, nobody has even attempted to prove wrong anything significant I discussed in the two epic posts on page four. Honestly, seeing how you fools try to combat me with your personal attacks and rediculous gay jokes is entertaining. You have no substance to your argument, so you start behaving like children. And until you stop behaving like children I will continue to refer to you as children.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 9:33 pm on May 30, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Oh, and another thing...

Stalin had private property. :)

[lenin]

why can't you see, that in a stalinist government, the ruling class IS the prolateriat.
look at the quotes redsoviet has given you from the manifesto. it proves that communism is an economic system of bringing equality to the working class. no-one else! the whole idea is, in capitalism, the bourgeoisie is the ruling class, then after that, in communsim, the prolatriat is the ruling class. then, during the dictatorship of the prolateriat, classes disappear!
again, communism is an economic system. if we were to go on the social views of karl marx, then we would all be anti-semites, because he was! a communist government can adopt any social policies it wants. if it wants to be authoritarian, it will, do you know why? because the communist party is the prolatriat, and the prolateriat, calls the shots!

[Fabi]

this might sound really really really really stupid, but maybe i am just the extremely weak-minded patient moron kind of person.

i just wish we could stop insulting each other.
who cares about what someone writes here? you are not going to convince ANYONE of your point of view, if you keep calling people 'dumb fucks'.

i am sorry that i never had to fight in my life.
i am sorry that i wasnt born into poverty.
i am sorry that i have never ever been in a fight.
i am sorry that i dont agree with all of you.
i am sorry for being sorry.
i am sorry for being weak-minded.

please, people, go for one last attack on me for being some dumb kid, and then just calm down.

love you all ;)
Fabi

[STALINSOLDIERS]

lenin in your last post in the first page..same thing happend to me i got exploited by racist americans...i was working with mexicans and my boss was mexicans all were good people..then after lunch and friday they called immigration everyone ran i was left out i was born in miami but thye stopped me cause i spoke spanish....and it was friday do they wont get piad and worked for free....i dont want to let the capitalist have freedom actually i want to kill them all....

[Michael De Panama]

The proletariat is equally fucked right now in capitalism, isn't it? You have no idea what communism is, do you?

It's about social and economic equality. Marxism is about the elimination of the bourgeoisie. Afterwards, only the proletariat remains. In a democracy the proletariat would be the ruling class anyway, because they are the majority. In a Stalinist regime, however, the Party is the ruling class, not the proletariat. The minority is the ruling class. The rest of the people have no say so.

[Michael De Panama]

again, communism is an economic system. if we were to go on the social views of karl marx, then we would all be anti-semites, because he was!

First off, Karl Marx WAS a semite. Second, anti-semitism had absolutely nothing to do with his political ideology. Third, Marx is not the founder of communism. Fourth, communism is a system that strives to eliminate social class! Enough of this nonsense.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Micheal I have no subsatnce to my argument?? I have been using qoutes all day today!! What have you produced?? Jack shit!!! All a bunch of hearsay. And how was I making gay jokes? And who was the first communist?? See you have nothing to back any of your statements up. Oh yeah why haven't you answered my question about what you have been doing in your community to further your so called communist cause? Lets see I know why, because you don't do shit for the lower class and your saying I'm not a true communist?? I know why your using the argument about marx not being the first communist because I proved you wrong with all the qoutes I have produced from the communists manifesto and marx writing!!!!!!

Lenin E-mail me so I can get your e-mail address
Thanks

[Moskitto]

No, Marx was not the first communist. Ever heard of John Ball (14th Century), Thomas More (16th century), The Diggers (17th Century.)

[lenin]

michael de panama, have you ever done a days work in your life? until you have experienced capitalist exploitation first hand like me and stalinsildiers, you will not understands my communist beliefs! we don't just want equality, we want revenge for all the shit capitalists have put us through! what do you propose we do to the company that did that to stalinsoldiers? just let them have there view? fuck that! those capitalist bastards deserve to be fucking killed! plain and simple!

(Edited by lenin at 10:17 pm on May 30, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Haha. I think I've won this debate. You're stooping to personal attacks now.

Yes, I am currently employed by Wal-Mart, a corporation I greatly despise. Yes I do plenty of activities in my local leftist community. Not just communism either. Various other movements I support. I also know what it's like to live in a third world country. However, none of this is even relevant to the topic. You are obviously desperate. I really can't blame you. You don't have logic on your side.

I STILL haven't gotten that long break down of my posts on page four that you promised me, Lenin.

And RedSovietCCCP, I have proved you wrong three times about that whole "abolition of private property, we're true commies now" argument. And three times you ignored it. Whatever. I'll let you be smug in your own little world over there, child.

[lenin]

personal attacks???? where???? thats more your style isn't it?

about your 'epic' on page 4, i answered most of it and the rest was just bull shit not worth answering. most of the time you just put words in my mouth. i didn't say china was in a good state, but at least the communists still rule there. USSR should of gone down that road and maybe can still learn from china.
and you still haven't given me your manifesto for your beliefs either. i will eagerly await that.

[Guest]

I'd just like to say I am deeply annoyed by the level of conversation in this forum, was expecting a little more inteligent argument, and debate. That's what communism stands for. Anti-homosexual, or anti-religion, or racist arguments have no place in communism. Totalitarianism has no place in communism. If you don't understand that, you are a victim of the capitalist system you preach against. The one thing I detest about these arguments is the fact that no one has their facts straight, sure people think stalin was a communist. He wasn't. That's we he had to violently win his way to power, and kill all against him. Just like Hitler. If you don't want to treat every single person on this planet as a birth right equal, you aren't a communist, you aren't a capitalist, you aren't even an anachist or a nihilist. You are a fascist. That's what we call people who generalise on creed, or race, or sexuality. That's what we fought two world wars over, and are still fighting today against.
I don't care about your politics, fascism is stupid, arrogant, misguided and wrong. The fact is, equality is what we are all after, whether under communism or capitalism. If you don't agree with that, find another planet to infest. You can live your life there, away from people stopping you being barbarians and controlling the weaker people. The more evolved human beings amongst us believe communism is about equality, and that is why we support it. If you don't understand that, your arguments have no place in this forum or anywhere. The only totalitarian statement I would agree with, would involve fascists, and racists, and anyone who generalise thousands of people on their own misguided pre-conceptions, were forcibly re-educated in centres until they understood what the word humanity means.

*prepares for onslaught of uneducated swearing and nonsense*

Since I started writing, a million more posts have come...anyway "those capitalist bastards deserve to be fucking killed!" Well in that case, so do the communists. we are after equality. the thing that makes political systems fail is blind haterd. How do you expect communism to work if you supress people's views? the way communism will happen, and stay, is by people debating their differences and not being so pretentious and conceited that they believe their view is the truth. Even stupid people know they are not right all the time. Give it a rest.

[Guest]

All these people writing about killing people... If you want to kill people, go join a barbarian community. Most people can resolve their differences with words nowadays. If you seek revenge, go join the army, kill some random people you've never met. Why not? they might have a different viewpoint to you. As far as your agruments go, you just want the oppressed to become the opressors. that's not democracy, or communism. that's stupidity. Go chill out and come back with locial rational arguments, that aren't based on hatred of capitalists in general. you live amongst them, many of them are nice people. It's not like they have a choice, they are opressed by the same rulers as you are. Most of them are the same kind of people as you are. you think all people with more money are evil? Hardly. some of them kept their values and their integrity while working their way out of poverty. they are the kind of people you ought to like, they may have been lucky, but they are still just like most everyone in america. They work to make a living, and they work in the hope that one day things might become better for everyone.

[lenin]

comrade, thats a nice fantasy you have there (not meaning to be sarcastic). but, unfortunatly, this is the real world, and anything that is worth something, is not going to be given up (like governmental power!). therefore, you have to fight for it. violence is the easiest way to get your point across. "freedom can only be gained by using the barrel of a shotgun" mao-zedong (he said something like that).
unless you know the situation, you can't comment on it. i don't mean to keep goig on about myself and my hard luck stories but, i work for this guy, he inherited the company from his dad, he is an absolute prick! he pays his workers shit money and lives the high life while doing nothing. two weeks ago, i said to him 'could i have my wages a week early because if i don't get them now, i'll be evicted from my house.' his responce was, 'not my problem, fuck off!'. that was his responce! it would of made no difference if he would of given them me a week early, that is what capitalism is!
there are a couple of others who feel like me at work, so what we are going to do, is when we have all lost our jobs, wait for him to finish work, then kick the fucking shit out of him! then everytime he looks in the mirror, he is going to regret exploiting his workers and he won't do it again. that is how powerful violence is!
communism will never prevail through the ballot box because as stalin says "the power isn't with he who casts the votes, but with he who counts the votes" don't you see? the bourgeisie will not give up power that easily!
i'm not against all capitalists. some have worked hard and built themselves up from nothing. but the ones who exploit people, deserve to pay!
how can you create a communist society if there are still people out there who are willing to exlploit people for pesonal gain? these are usually the people who end up in power because they are so determined! thats why they can't exist!
and another thing, why the fuck can't i be anti-homosexual or anti-religion? does that make me less of a communist? no! i want equality for the workers not for gays! if there is a gay member of the prolateriat, i want equality for him too! but as a worker, not as a homosexual!
you liberal, democratic people are never going to get into power because you are too busy crying over the injustices of too many things! you should just concentrate on one thing, the prolateriat! stalinists on the other hand, have a clear agenda. we took a set-back with the end of the soviet empire, but thats what it was, a set-back. we still hold a massive presence in former USSR and can reconstruct the USSR. stalinists still hold power in cuba, laos, vietnam, china, N.Korea and other nations. reform stalnists have got there act together and got back into power in poland, in romania, hungary, bulgaria, moldova, belarus. what are the liberal communists doing? where are they re-grouping? where are they planning to take power? no-where! because your views, however apealing they are, are impossible. if implemented, they would ruin the movement for good!

[Michael De Panama]

personal attacks???? where???? thats more your style isn't it?

Um. Are you blind?


Quote: from lenin on 10:15 pm on May 30, 2002
michael de panama, have you ever done a days work in your life? until you have experienced capitalist exploitation first hand like me and stalinsildiers, you will not understands my communist beliefs! we don't just want equality, we want revenge for all the shit capitalists have put us through! what do you propose we do to the company that did that to stalinsoldiers? just let them have there view? fuck that! those capitalist bastards deserve to be fucking killed! plain and simple!

(Edited by lenin at 10:17 pm on May 30, 2002)



Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 10:03 pm on May 30, 2002
Micheal I have no subsatnce to my argument?? I have been using qoutes all day today!! What have you produced?? Jack shit!!! All a bunch of hearsay. And how was I making gay jokes? And who was the first communist?? See you have nothing to back any of your statements up. Oh yeah why haven't you answered my question about what you have been doing in your community to further your so called communist cause? Lets see I know why, because you don't do shit for the lower class and your saying I'm not a true communist?? I know why your using the argument about marx not being the first communist because I proved you wrong with all the qoutes I have produced from the communists manifesto and marx writing!!!!!!

Lenin E-mail me so I can get your e-mail address
Thanks



Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 9:25 pm on May 30, 2002
Micheal you sure did prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!! At first micheal I thougth you where semi-educated but I guess not!!



Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 6:54 pm on May 30, 2002
Micheal do you do anything in your community to expand your so called communist beleifs. I doubt it. Like I said before I am head of the commuinist labor party at my univeristy. A lot of people are joining because what it has to offer for the working class and what the true meaning of communism is. On sunday mornings I do volunteer labor to set a personal example of communist dedication and sacrifice. I got this idea from Che. Maybe you should go to gay clubs every sunday and set a example for your idealist so called communist movement. You have no idea what communism is about. Do something for the lower class or do some volunteer work to set a example. Oh but I forgot your not even a communist. You just woke up one morning and decided it would be cool to become a communist or lets just say try to be a communist!!



Quote: from lenin on 6:57 pm on May 30, 2002
"Maybe you should go to gay clubs every sunday and set a example for your idealist so called communist movement."

ha ha ha, fucking hilarious!!!!!! i had to aplaud that one comrade!



Quote: from lenin on 8:33 pm on May 30, 2002
oh no! thine stalin, SS, redsoviet, we best stop being stalinists because james isn't going to be nice to us anymore!!!! thats ruined my day that has james. i'm going to go burn my communist manifesto now because how could i possibly continue being a communist if i knew it meant you not being 'nice' to me. you moron!


Why do you always have to deny reality? Ah, whatever. I guess that's the mind of a Stalinist.

[Guest]

Oooh, Michael's got you there Lenin. Maybe you should use fuck another hundred times, after all it's worked so well so far... Get a life, and a decent arguement while you're at it.

[RedSovietCCCP]

your still on here micheal? don't you ever work?? When have you proven me wrong three times??? Like I said before all your comments are hearsay. So what you are saying that Abolition of private party is not the main theory of communism? Have you ever took western traditions in college?? This class picks apart the Manifesto and the main points are brought out and any of your points don't match up. Oh wait a minute you work at walmart you dont go to college. I'll be damned that a walmart employee tells me what he thinks communism is all about. I've studied the communist philosophy for over a year in college and was taught about the communist philosophy in class. So don't tell me about your so called communists veiws, walmart employee!!!!!!! Stop insulting me and my comrades and I will do the same for you. DUMB SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Capitalist Fighter]

Stalinists, if you guys aren't pacificsts are you claim not to be, why dont' you go fight in the jungles of your capitalist nations against the oppressive system that pays your bills and feeds your families. Go fight in guerilla war now, why are you debating, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT. i don't expect Stalinists to reply to this becasue it owuld be hard to get internet connection in the jungles. That is of course if you are not a pacifist and are some 12 year old smart ass who thinks he is good sitting in front of his microsoft windows computer.

[RedSovietCCCP]

You don't make any sense Capitalist fighter. What kind of simple minded statement is this. Like I said you make no sense and I can't respond to what you are saying. What point are you trying to make??? Whats this have to do with anything???

[Capitalist Fighter]

You claim to detest all the pacifist communists here, correct? Now i don't see you going out and starting guerilla wars or fighting militarily the government that as you claim oppresses you. If you are not a pacifist, and a hardcore communist that is willing to fight and die for your beliefs, why aren't you in the midst of a war between communism and capitalism. Why don't you adhere to Che's methods and fight in the jungles of your capitalist nation. Now i don't expect any of you Stalinists who seek to fight for their political system to reply to this post because you, in accordance to your violent beliefs, would be in the jungles right now participating in a war. That is of course unless you are true Stalinists? Maybe just some 12 year old smart ass who sits in front of their microsoft computer preaching communism and violence yet are to scared to change their own diper.
Understand now Stalinist?

[RedSovietCCCP]

I didn't claim shit!!!!!!!!!!! I wrote nothing about what you are talking about!!!! If I'm wrong (which I'm not) state me on what I said about what you are talking about. What argument are you trying to get in with me?

[Capitalist Fighter]

sorry this is mainly for StalinSoldiers and yuri

[Anarcho]

I just wanted to state that I think there is too much focus on Physical labor being the only true proletarian work.

I spend most of my day staring at a computer screen, and I am underpaid, and massivly underappreciated. My boss, quite literally, sits and play chess online all night. He gets paid much much more than I.

But I count myself as part of the proletariat, just as much as a minimum wage worker at McDonalds, or a comrade in a factory.

Just because someone doesn't get dirty when they work doesn't mean it's not work.

[lenin]

capitalist fighter, how do we know YOUR not some 12 year old kid coming on here trying to piss off stalninsts? the truth is, we don't, its an anonomous internet board.
i've never said i'm going to start a guerilla war or anything. thats stupid! i don't know stalinsoldiers well but he seem alright ('ll let him answer this himself). leonind (yuri) never spoke of guerilla war either and anyway, he did fight war! he was in afgahnistan for a while and was a cold warrior for the kgb! so wheres your point! and another thing, i HAVE taken part in violent activities against capitalists! usually when i go to russia of course, but i have many times (i'm with NBP of russia).

[Capitalist Fighter]

SS claims to be in a guerilla army in the US that will launch a civil war in the nation soon. However all he seems to do is get on this forum and abuse pacifists and those who don't follow his violent methods. I question the validity of his claims that he is partaking in a guerilla movement when all he does is spend time here along with all the other "pacifists".

[Fabi]

hey lenin, somewhere on this site you claimed to NOT be racist. well, that is okay... just why did leonid (your uncle, if i am not mistaken) warn us to have an eye on you since according to him you could get quite racist sometimes?

and i dont think it matters if think you're fighting for GAY EQUALITY or not... because in the end, as already said, you support all proletarians, meaning also blacks, jews, gays, bisexuals, christians and so on. so basically equality for everyone might not be your goal. but your fight would still lead to it...

i hope that made at least a little sense...

[lenin]

i don't know if you noticed, but leonid (yuri) labels everyone who doesn't agree with him with an extremist label! we disagree on immigration therefore i am a racist? i don't like aspects of black culture, so i am racist?
i have nothing to hide to be honest! why would i say i'm not racist if i am? its only an anonomous internet board! its not like i am going to have to face black people or whatever! just because you don't like a particular culture, doesn't mean you don't like the people who use it.
and i'll say it again. i want equality for the working class, or at least a chance at equality. if there is a gay prolateriat, i want equality for him as a prolateriat, but i don't still don't like the fact that he is gay! i want eveyone to be born equal economically. and everyone to be given the same chance, economically.

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Capitalist Fighter on 5:30 am on May 31, 2002
You claim to detest all the pacifist communists here, correct? Now i don't see you going out and starting guerilla wars or fighting militarily the government that as you claim oppresses you. If you are not a pacifist, and a hardcore communist that is willing to fight and die for your beliefs, why aren't you in the midst of a war between communism and capitalism. Why don't you adhere to Che's methods and fight in the jungles of your capitalist nation. Now i don't expect any of you Stalinists who seek to fight for their political system to reply to this post because you, in accordance to your violent beliefs, would be in the jungles right now participating in a war. That is of course unless you are true Stalinists? Maybe just some 12 year old smart ass who sits in front of their microsoft computer preaching communism and violence yet are to scared to change their own diper.
Understand now Stalinist?


I INTEND to go fight for communist revolution, when I get enough money, which is not available to me right now. Do you honestly think we are some sadists? That we love and are obsessed with death? Open your eyes, and your ears and maybe actually listen to us.

[joseph K]

why will communism never work? because it seems the communists want to strangle each other. this has been a very depressing read

[guerrillaradio]

To be quite honest, if Red Soviet, Thine Stalin, Lenin et al are "true communists", then I no longer want to associated with any form of communism. Your posts are disgusting, full of ugly discrimination and blind superiorism. Surely there is no place in communism for homophobes and anti-semites. Please, fuck off and start guerrilla warfare, and if there is a revolution, I will fight alongside scum such as Bush and Gates to keep you out.


what do you propose we do to the company that did that to stalinsoldiers? just let them have there view? fuck that! those capitalist bastards deserve to be fucking killed! plain and simple!

Interesting...an anti-immigrationist wants to kill those who report immigrants. Not very Stalinist is it Lenin??


Guerrillaradio your a fucking idiot. Do some resereach on the internet, like I said before the USSR would have surpassed the U.S. as the economic super power.

Erm...well Red Soviet, although it is hard to predict most things, in a parellel universe where the USSR still existed and still was "communist" (in the loosest sense of the word, as it wasn't communist even during Lenin's time), I think it would be even further behind the USA economically. Leninism and the NEP only took the USSR to Tsarist production levels, Stalin's Five-Year Plans admittedly took it to second in the world (thanks to the adoption of a few capitalist ideals and very poor treatment of factory workers), but it was still behind the US. The USSR was unlucky in WWII, as it suffered terribly, whereas the USA actually profited from it (sick but true). After Stalin's death, Khrushchev's farming methods failed, and Brezhnev's corruption only served to cripple the economy further. In fact, the only time post-Stalinism that the USSR economy improved significantly was during Gorbachev's glasnost, but that was hardly "true communism" was it??




(Edited by guerrillaradio at 5:36 pm on May 31, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

To be quite honest, if Red Soviet, Thine Stalin, Lenin et al are "true communists", then I no longer want to associated with any form of communism. Your posts are disgusting, full of ugly discrimination and blind superiorism. Surely there is no place in communism for homophobes and anti-semites. Please, fuck off and start guerrilla warfare, and if there is a revolution, I will fight alongside scum such as Bush and Gates to keep you out.


what do you propose we do to the company that did that to stalinsoldiers? just let them have there view? fuck that! those capitalist bastards deserve to be fucking killed! plain and simple!

Interesting...an anti-immigrationist wants to kill those who report immigrants. Not very Stalinist is it Lenin??


Guerrillaradio your a fucking idiot. Do some resereach on the internet, like I said before the USSR would have surpassed the U.S. as the economic super power.

Erm...well Red Soviet, although it is hard to predict most things, in a parellel universe where the USSR still existed and still was "communist" (in the loosest sense of the word, as it wasn't communist even during Lenin's time), I think it would be even further behind the USA economically. Leninism and the NEP only took the USSR to Tsarist production levels, Stalin's Five-Year Plans admittedly took it to second in the world (thanks to the adoption of a few capitalist ideals and very poor treatment of factory workers), but it was still behind the US. The USSR was unlucky in WWII, as it suffered terribly, whereas the USA actually profited from it (sick but true). After Stalin's death, Khrushchev's farming methods failed, and Brezhnev's corruption only served to cripple the economy further. In fact, the only time post-Stalinism that the USSR economy improved significantly was during Gorbachev's glasnost, but that was hardly "true communism" was it??

[STALINSOLDIERS]

let me slap some heavy books into capitalist fighter thick head...first in a guerilla warefare you cant just fight without having proper weapons,people,maps,training and all other things...shit if i start a war right now i would die quickly unless i have at least 10 nucklear bombs then i could like be happy but no..shit and im 18 19 in septemeber and i will die for the cause....

[pastradamus]

U make me sick! killing is like a daily task with what ur making it out 2 be,u'd freeze b4 u'd have the chance to pull tha trigger.

Why cant u stop going for guns,stop trying to force oppression on the people. if they dont want it,they dont want,use ur head comrade & beat the cappi pigs at their own game.Violence will never solve anything.+ did u ever stop to think of what a wanker stalin was? he was the commie hitler.lenin,marx,these guys are the true composers of communism along with more democratic left wingers, so if u wanna be a commie then dont be a stalinist one.

companach pa,


(Edited by pastradamus at 5:51 pm on May 31, 2002)

[RedSovietCCCP]

Guerrrillaradio state your source!!!!! I've stated my source plenty of times. First of all what I stated about ussr surpassing the U.S. in economic super power came out of the intro of my manifesto as stated "In the 50's and 60's the soviet economy boomed; Living standards improved rapidly, the national economy barreled along, all this leading Nikita Khrushchev and would soon catch up with and then surpass the U.S. as the world's number one economic super power." This was writen by a marxist professor that is a lot smarter than you. And second of all I was taught this at the university also. And the last thing guerrrillaradio when you said there is no place in communism for homophobes (which I'm not) and anti-semites (which I'm not) thats just your fucking opinion. No where does it say in any of marx writing or Engels writing about there being no place for homophobes and anti-semites in communism. Communism is about the working class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how many times do I have to say this!!! Read for once in your life and you would know that. Don't distort what the true meaning of communism!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't tell me or my comrades to fuck off!!!!! FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!! You started to listen to Rage against The Machine and now you think you are a communist!!!!!!!! You FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!! And go back to where you came from.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

lol ....go one redsoviet

[pastradamus]

Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 5:49 pm on May 31, 2002
Guerrrillaradio state your source!!!!! I've stated my source plenty of times. First of all what I stated about ussr surpassing the U.S. in economic super power came out of the intro of my manifesto as stated "In the 50's and 60's the soviet economy boomed; Living standards improved rapidly, the national economy barreled along, all this leading Nikita Khrushchev and would soon catch up with and then surpass the U.S. as the world's number one economic super power." This was writen by a marxist professor that is a lot smarter than you. And second of all I was taught this at the university also. And the last thing guerrrillaradio when you said there is no place in communism for homophobes (which I'm not) and anti-semites (which I'm not) thats just your fucking opinion. No where does it say in any of marx writing or Engels writing about there being no place for homophobes and anti-semites in communism. Communism is about the working class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how many times do I have to say this!!! Read for once in your life and you would know that. Don't distort what the true meaning of communism!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't tell me or my comrades to fuck off!!!!! FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!! You started to listen to Rage against The Machine and now you think you are a communist!!!!!!!! You FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!! And go back to where you came from.


[/b]not another fucking 12yr old![b] look man take it eazy on da french pleeze & show us sum fucking intellegence instead of rude stalin crap.

stop trying to force oppression on the people

u sure u and stalinsoldiers arent the same person?

[RedSovietCCCP]

hey pastradamus why don't you say something to gurrillaradio, didn't you see how he told me to fuck off? And how am I trying to force oppression on people?? I'm just fighting back comments that people make on me!!!! And show you some intellegence???? No body has yet to prove me wrong!!!!! And look at your argument. your argument is for me to use better french!!! I suggest YOU use some intellegence!!!! I will talk the way I want to talk!!!!! You people are a bunch of hypocrites, If you see me using bad french as you put it you call me a 12 year old but if somebody you agree with on your so called communist beleifs uses bad french against me its ok. Well like I said before, FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lenin]

also, no-one has put forward one quote from the manifesto to dissprove the theory that communism is economic equality for the working class. redsoviet has put forward several to prove our theory, but i still await one to disporve it. also, i ahven't seen any quotes from the maifest saying how in communism it is against the idology to be homophobic. strange indeed.

[Guest]

Violence....original idea...no one has ever tried that one before. :) The whole point in communism is democracy, if you get communism via violence, you undemine all the arguments there are for it. Violence may happen during a revolution, but you don't need to punish the capitalists with it. Their punishment will be watching currency disappear, and suddenly finding they have no more say, or power than any other member of society. Sure, communism without violence will be difficult, but whoever said it would be easy? Marx was an idealist and a visionary, not a warrior...he didnt mean for his ideas to be screwed up by people who are just as evil as the capitalists they fight against. I don't advocate violence, and I very much doubt he did either. The simple fact is this, if you come to power with violent means, everyone will resent you for it and you suddenly lose all power in your argument. These days it's a called "terrorism" and you'll just get inprisoned for it, you won't win anything. For a few examples of violence NOT leading to progress think of 1) the IRA, 2) India and Pakistan over kashmir 3) Stalin himself (so that was really successful wasn't it?) 4) Afghanistan 5) Israel and palestine. Need any more? Sorry doesn't work. Oh and Nazi germany too if you want to bring that into it. they conquered for awhile then got their asses truly kicked, and ended up spending the last 50 years paying for it in more ways than they could have imagined. The point of communism is PROGRESS, not regression to barbarism.

[Michael De Panama]

When have you proven me wrong three times???

Look, you jackass:


Quote: from Michael De Panama on 4:49 pm on May 30, 2002
Idiot. You completely took that line out of context. I know that line very well. I am in complete agreement with the abolition of private property. However, Marx's point was that the bourgeoisie are the only ones who actually have any property. Therefore, everyone would be equal. Communism is a system of social equality, not just economic equality. Marx even later stated in the Manifesto that capital itself is a social power, not an economic power.

And yes, you are still a proletarian fascist.



Quote: from Michael De Panama on 9:29 pm on May 30, 2002
But just because you ignored it the first time, I guess I'll have to do it again.


Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 8:29 pm on May 30, 2002
Uh-oh james isn't going to be nice anymore!!!! James you grow a fucking brain cell. you and all the other idiots don't know what the true meaning of communism is. Jesus, how many times do I have to say this to you fucks. ITS ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS and ABOLITION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. This is the main issue of communism. Not your made up liberal bullshit. Its all about expoition of the working class and I want to get rid of the expoition of my fellow workers and you dare call me a facist. FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! I"M THE TRUE COMMUNIST, LENIN, THINE STALIN, STALIN SOILDERS and OTHERS ARE TOO.


True communism does include the abolition of private property. However, it is much more than that. As a Marxist, I agree with the abolition of private property. In what way am I not a true commie?

Communism is not just abolition of private property. Marx elaborated on this, but you chose to ignore it. Communism is aboust social and economic equality.

Marx, by the way, WAN'T THE FIRST FUCKING COMMUNIST!

This is the best point I have seen regarding your idiotic babbling:


Quote: from libereco on 6:41 pm on May 30, 2002
arguing about the exact words of Karl Marx is idiotic. Marx was not a perfect human being either, and just because he said A is true that doesn't make A true, or disprove B.

You're treating Marx as if you were a Christian talking about Jesus.

I don't see how your little argument proves my argument false. I agree with the abolition of private property. I also agree with the abolition of the ruling class, which is also a part of Marxist ideology. You and "Lenin", on the other hand, advocate the replacement of the ruling class with one much more oppressive. You aren't true communists. You aren't even false communists. You simply are not communists. You are proletarian fascists.



Quote: from Michael De Panama on 5:38 pm on May 30, 2002
My reply to RedSovietCCCP:

Idiot. You completely took that line out of context. I know that line very well. I am in complete agreement with the abolition of private property. However, Marx's point was that the bourgeoisie are the only ones who actually have any property. Therefore, everyone would be equal. Communism is a system of social equality, not just economic equality. Marx even later stated in the Manifesto that capital itself is a social power, not an economic power.

And yes, you are still a proletarian fascist.

I copied and pasted that from the other post you felt you needed to repeat yourself in, using such a brilliant point.

But anyway, regardless of the circumstances, the Soviet Union collapsed because something went wrong. If something went wrong then obviously there is a major flaw in the system, and repeating it would be a big mistake.

So there you go Michael, proving you wrong again. Soviet Union style of communism works.

No, you didn't prove me wrong. All you did was give an excuse for the USSR's collapse. And what the fuck do you mean by "again"? You have yet to ever prove me wrong, child.

the manifesto states "Economic equality is socialism. See that word Economic Michael??????? your reading must be horrible!!!!

And it also makes no distinction between what is economic and what is social. Besides, just because that sentence didn't include the word "social" doesn't make the literal meaning correct. You take words too far out of context. Your reading IS horrible. Socialism isn't even economic equality. Communism is. Socialism is the transition between capitalism and communism. It's not complete equality. Communism is social equality.

Capitalist fight you don't make any real points so I'm not going to bother with you.

Bullshit. He made great points that you either ignored, or were too stupid to understand.

You make it a point to tell the whole world about your possession of the manifesto. Such a point that I would assume that you just recently got your hands on it. Have you ever read anything else by Marx? Capital even?

It doesn't really matter, by the way, what is written in the introduction of your Communist Manifesto. Mine talks about Marx and Engel's life. Who cares? It's not like Karl Marx rose from the dead and wrote an introduction explaining the fall of the USSR. That was written by some ordinary guy, not anybody more credible than you or me (especially not you, child).

Fabi:
i think BECAUSE communism is simply about ECONOMY, all social issues can be sorted out independently.

No no no. Communism is about social equality, not just economic. Either way a dictator or a ruling party still makes more money in a Stalinist regime than the majority of the population.


So what you are saying that Abolition of private party is not the main theory of communism?

No, what I'm saying is that abolition of private property isn't the ONLY theory of communism, fool.

Have you ever took western traditions in college?? This class picks apart the Manifesto and the main points are brought out and any of your points don't match up. Oh wait a minute you work at walmart you dont go to college.

Nope! I'm still in High School. I take college courses though.

I'll be damned that a walmart employee tells me what he thinks communism is all about.

Aww, poor baby. Can't defend your beliefs so now you have to resort to attacks against my integrity, hmm? Your arrogance only makes you look more like the bourgeois idiot that you are. Your beliefs are weak and you are very ignorant about anything that relates to communism. I first read the Communist Manifesto when I was 13. My age has nothing to do with this argument. My school experience has nothing to do with this argument. My work experience has nothing to do with this argument. But since you are so weak-minded, this is all you can do. I can't blame you. I mean, I wouldn't really expect too much of an intelligent argument from someone who supports a mass murderer.

I've studied the communist philosophy for over a year in college and was taught about the communist philosophy in class. So don't tell me about your so called communists veiws, walmart employee!!!!!!!

Haha. Why? Because you can't defend your own views? You poor thing, you. How ironic that someone who calls themself a "true communist" would attack someone's proletarian status. How about you stop acting like a child, and start giving me real arguments? The funny thing is that I'm probably younger than you. I've studied communism more deeply than you ever had at your silly little one year college course, so it really doesn't matter the length (although I've probably been a communist for a lot longer than you). Actually, nothing matters here except the basic argument, which you are so eager to walk away from. If you knew so much about communism you would welcome this argument. If you knew so much about communism you would show it. But you don't. Because you have been beaten. Fool.

Stop insulting me and my comrades and I will do the same for you. DUMB SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least when I insult you, I also give you some intelligent arguments to work with. All you do is curse at me. How about you follow in my example, and call me a dumb shit and then prove my place as "dumb shit" by giving me some solid arguments?

It's obvious that I've won this argument. No one has brought any new arguments to the table. Instead, you are resorting to desperate attacks on my integrity as a communist. Haha. Now run along now, you Stalinist fools.

[lenin]

de panama, you haven't dissproved anything! all you've done is give YOUR version of communism, redsoviet has not only given his version, but the version of karl fucking marx! the author of the communist manifesto! you haven't put one quote from the maifesto to prove your argument, all you've done is resort to personal attcks (and shit ones at that...fool...child, woh!!! your too witty for me!!!!). get some proof of what your saying from the maifesto, oh wait, thats right, there fucking is none!!!! because communism is an economic theory put forward by karl marx....AN ECONOMIST!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

Whatever. Here:

"But does wage labor create any property for the laborer? Not a bit. It creates capital, i.e., that kind of property which exploits wage labor, and which cannot increase except upon conditions of begetting a new supply of wage labor for fresh exploitation. Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labor. Let us examine both sides of this antagonism.

To be a capitalist, is to have not only a purely personal, but a social status in production. Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion.

Capital is therefore not only personal; it is a social power."

- Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

Communism is the abolition of capital, if you geniuses didn't know. That means the abolition of social class.

[lenin]

he says capital is social power but the whole idea is, after the revolution, the capital is in the power of the prolatriat. the prolatriat therefore has the social power. and if the prolatriat wants to make homosexuality illegal, they can do it! the whole argument i'm making is marx was an economic communist but he didn't say much about his social views. i am an econmic communist, therefore i am a communist. my social views have nothing to do with anything.

[Michael De Panama]

Encarta's dictionary definition:

com·mu·nism [kómmy nìzzm ] noun

classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of a community

That's common knowledge, folks.

[James]

i will type in capitals, then maybe the "real communists" will mistake my post for anger...thus read it;

THIS ARGUMENT ISN'T GOING ANY WHERE. SO WHY NOT BOTH SIDES DROP IT? ITS NOT GOING ANY WHERE. PLEASE, JUST SHUT UP!!!

with thanks,

James

[lenin]

that is th eventuallity of communism, after the dictatorship of the prolatriat and after socialism has been achieved. it takes hundreds maybe thousands of years to achive communism.
anyway, it still doesn't say shit about social views!

[Michael De Panama]

No. If the proletariat had their hands on capital, that would just make them proletarian capitalists. Besides, what kind of capital could be drained out of the bougeoisie, the minority? They are useless.

Communism abolishes all capital. Communism does NOT just switch the places of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie. Common knowledge. Any bourgeois capitalist could tell you this.

[James]

ahem

THIS ARGUMENT ISN'T GOING ANY WHERE. SO WHY NOT BOTH SIDES DROP IT? ITS NOT GOING ANY WHERE. PLEASE, JUST SHUT UP!!!

[Michael De Panama]

"Class" is a social aspect of society.

What you are telling me is that you are not a communist, just someone who wants the dictatorship of the proletariat.

James is right. This is going nowhere. I have to spell everything out for you. I have to dumb down my arguments. This is begining to just become a waste of my time.

[lenin]

the prolateriat does switch places with the bourgeoise!!!! during dictatorhisp of prolateriat, the prolateriat rules for the majority not the minority as is the case in capitalism. after the bouergeoisie has been defeated, they no longer exist, leading the way for the intelligencia, the peasentry and the prolateriat to live in a classless society.

[James]

That is correct. Both sides "know" that they are right. You can't convince the other side. So please...SHUSH

James

[James]

OIY!!!!

Lenin!

Play by the rules!

[Michael De Panama]

Capitalism:
The bourgeoisie rules over the proletariat.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat:
Proletariat rules over the bourgeoisie.

That would be swapping places!

Besides, my point was that Stalinism is not a classless society. It holds one authority above the rest of the nation, just like the bourgeoisie. This is not communism, it's fascism. The only way communism can successfully exist is through democracy. Only in democracy can a society be without class. Stalinism is nothing more than proletarian fascism.

You're getting boring, fascist.

[lenin]

Dictatorship of the Proletariat:
Proletariat rules over the bourgeoisie.

exactly! that is what stalinism is!!!! stalinism is the dictatorship of the prolatriat. the dictatorship of the prolatriat happens after the revolution, stalin took over, after the revolution.
after this has happened, then democracy and classless society will prevail.
and it STILL has fuck all to do with social issues. so i STILL am a communist not a fucking fascist. if anyone is a fscist, its you!!!! you are gay, and many communists have called homosexuality a fscist perversion, including stalin, castro and....yes, you guessed it, che!!!!

[Fabi]

michael, my point was just that even if i followed lenin's and the others' views and understanding of communism it would still lead to social equality... and i said why.
i did know that quote you gave... i just didnt think it would lead anywhere if i just would have started going 'nanannananna, i cant here you... FUCK OFF'... know what i mean?

besides.... at first i thought you were just a moron with some okay views, but a tendency to insult people and to you 'FUCK' almost as frequently as Trent 'fucking' Reznor. ;)
so, although i can understand that you get pissed off, try to cut down on the cussing...

you did show patience, though, posting again and again, what you had already said a couple of times since nobody listened or just kept ignoring it.


and lenin, i think i did give reasons why homophobia (among other views) is contradictory to communism... but i dont want to argue...

[Michael De Panama]

I'm gay? I have a girlfriend, buddy. I'm not attracted to men. Perhaps you think that all people who are against homophobia are gay. Such ignorance might lead you to believe that I'm jewish because I'm against anti-semitism, or that I'm a woman because I'm against misogyny. Intolerance is stupid all around, you Nazi. But I'll let you know that I'm attracted to the ladies.

Stalinism, by the way, is not about the dictatorship of the majority class ruling over the minority class. It's about a minority class within the majority class ruling over all. Either way, this is not a classless society and therefore is not communistic.

[lenin]

how does homophobia contradict communism? why were so many leading communist figures homphobic. castro still is! he sees it as a remnense of the bourgeois fascist past.
de panama, youre not gay? suprising, seeing as you love to stick up for them so much.

[Fabi]

as a communist you ARE FOR THE PROLETARIAT.
so you CANT BE AGAINST homosexual proletarians.

so you can be against homosexuals only if they are capitalists. SO YOU CANNOT BE GENERALLY HOMOPHOBIC...


at least i think that that makes sense.
by the way, i am not gay, either... ;)

[RedSovietCCCP]

Fabi I am all for the proletartiat even if they are gay, I don't want to know there gay becuase it's none of my business. Being a communist=all for the proletartiat, working class ,etc......

[lenin]

i want economic equality for ALL prolaterians. so that means i want to give everyone an equal economic chance when they start life. thats what communism is. economic equality.
my social views have nothing to do with economic. i would ban homosexuality. i agree that everyone has tendancies, but, IMO to follow them up and actually have sex with a member of your own sex is disgusting! men who dress up as women or who think they were born into the wrong body are clearly mentally unwell and should be in mental institutes like they were in USSR.
that is my opinion. it also happens to be the opinion of many communists. it makes me no less of a communist. like i said, many comrades believe homosexuality is a bourgeois perversion. in afghanistan, it is seen as a sign of higher social class to have sex with a young boy! that is disgraceful.
if anything, homophobia is more of a communist trait!

[guerrillaradio]

Lenin - I'm gonna ignore your frankly disgusting views on homosexuality and transvestites (discrimination, not what the left is about), and ask you how a dictatorship by the proleteriat is anymore moral than a dictatorship by the bourgeouise??

Red Soviet - funnily enough, not everything that is true (by common definition, let's avoid philosophy here) comes from a book. It is fact accepted by capitalists and most communists (except for doubters such as yourself) that economically, the USSR was behind America in the entire period of Communism, including Khrushchev's time. The main reason Khrushchev fell from power (as well as the Cuban Missile Crisis) was cos his innovative farming methods were ill-planned and therefore failed to speed the economy to anywhere near America's levels. Why else do you think Gorbachev had to employ glasnost??

(Edited by guerrillaradio at 10:34 pm on May 31, 2002)

[lenin]

ok i'm starting to get fucking pissed off now! so you dn't think we need a dictatorship of the prolatreiat? are you prolateriat? only a bourgeois would say that! you think you know more about implementing communism than marx? i'll give you reasons 4 why the dictatorship of the prolatriat is needed:
1-revenge, we need to show the bourgeoises what it feels like to be oppressed.
2-to rout out counter-revolutionaries. to kill all enemies of the people and all class enemies.
3-to consolodate the communist party's power so the party can have enough time to implement its socialist reforms without hinderence.
4-to make the party's socialist reforms pass through quicker (no oppositio to them).

there is probobly many more reasons but these are jsut the obvious ones. dictatiorship of the prolateriat is a key element of marxist-leninism. as a marxist, you should know that. but then again, you know more than marx don't you? why don't you tell me your ideas on implementing communism?

[RedSovietCCCP]

Like I said again and again, where is your source???? you don't have one like always. And I will beleive a book writin by carl marx and I will beleive the intro of the manifesto written by a very smart maxist professor. Why would I beleive some kid naming himself after a Rage Against The machine song???? Where do you get your facts from??? I get all my facts from reading. And going to school. you should the same!!!!!!!!

[lenin]

BTW guerillaradio, glasnost is russian for openness, it meant freedom of press etc, it had fuck all to do with the economy. your thinking of peristroika (re-structering).

[RedSovietCCCP]

GREAT POINT LENIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE 4 REASONS you give are brilliant!!!!! True teachings of marx and lenin!!!!!!!

[STALINSOLDIERS]

i agree with lenin all thw way homosexuality,transvistite,and bi sexual should be banned and taken out of this earth..cause those things are sick in religion and in communism...its just disgusting..

[RedSovietCCCP]

It's not natural to be gay. And if anybody can prove me wrong on this to i would like to see it!!!!!!

[pastradamus]

Quote: from RedSovietCCCP on 6:35 pm on May 31, 2002
hey pastradamus why don't you say something to gurrillaradio, didn't you see how he told me to fuck off? And how am I trying to force oppression on people?? I'm just fighting back comments that people make on me!!!! And show you some intellegence???? No body has yet to prove me wrong!!!!! And look at your argument. your argument is for me to use better french!!! I suggest YOU use some intellegence!!!! I will talk the way I want to talk!!!!! You people are a bunch of hypocrites, If you see me using bad french as you put it you call me a 12 year old but if somebody you agree with on your so called communist beleifs uses bad french against me its ok. Well like I said before, FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well first of all,i what i ment by "french" was bad language but most 12 yr olds wouldnt kno what im talking bout.And as for GR I have talked to him in the past and I know he is a fairly intellegent person who isnt 12.hey I never even read any of ur or GR's posts up untill now but I just think all ye stalinists are all the same dumbasses.

And when the fuck did I call myself a communist?
Cuz im not,im a democratic-socialist.So ye foolish stalinists disgust me.Why cant ne of ye be smart? and put up a non-foolish argument,non-stupid intellegent argument.

Please give me sum competition in an argument.

[RedSovietCCCP]

No shit you meant bad language!!!!!! Read some of my stuff you can learn from me!!!!!!! Simple minded fool!!!!!!! If my bad language offends you don't read what I have to say!!!!!!!! Find a peice of writing in this thread or other threads I have wrote about and try to argue with me. Lets see how well you do!!!!!!!

[lenin]

redsovietcccp, these morons are just using your 'bad language' as an excuse not to answer your points! and even if you didn't use 'bad language', they woudl find some other bull shit excuse.

[RedSovietCCCP]

I wish people thought more like you lenin!!!!!

[lenin]

the thing these idiots don't realise is, more people do think like you and me than they do them!
just look at communist situation in the world today. anti-revisionist parties are much more powerful than liberal communist parties! they still hold power in china, korea, vietnam, cuba, moldova, belarus, laos and other places. the kprf (anti-revisionist) still controls the russian duma! but people like de panama, won't listen, they keep dreaming while we are doing! the difference is, they dream about taking power, we take power!

[pastradamus]

[/b]Ok u wanna give me a fucking point punk?[b]

[pastradamus]

Quote: from lenin on 1:10 am on June 1, 2002
the thing these idiots don't realise is, more people do think like you and me than they do them!
just look at communist situation in the world today. anti-revisionist parties are much more powerful than liberal communist parties! they still hold power in china, korea, vietnam, cuba, moldova, belarus, laos and other places. the kprf (anti-revisionist) still controls the russian duma! but people like de panama, won't listen, they keep dreaming while we are doing! the difference is, they dream about taking power, we take power!


yeah good point lenin,but which one of these countries arent poverty infected?

[lenin]

errr...what??? was that directed at me? if so, what do you mean?

[Michael De Panama]

*Sigh*

You are worthless, Lenin.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

you aint worthless lenin your are worthy

[lenin]

sorry my post was directed at this comment:

"Ok u wanna give me a fucking point punk?"

the fact that most of those nations are poverty infected doesn't really have to do with my point. the fact is, they are anti-revisionist. why they have poverty problems is not necessarily to do with that. most countries have poverty problems. some more than others but a synical person could say that is because of US trade embargos on places like cuba and korea.
de panama, what kind of comment was that you moron? try answering the points i make rather than giving me one line insults. you really are a disgrace to communism.

[pastradamus]

yeah 2 examples is all u cud produce out of 7 countries he named.lenin you are a disgrace to the title u give urself.China has no trade embargos affecting it,they actually enjoy trade agreements with america.

really think b4 u write stuff.

[Capitalist Fighter]

isn't it cute how stalinsoldiers, a loser with no friends on this board, has adopted Stalinism, contrary to his earlier claims, to "fit in" with yuri, lenin and all the other tools. Get an identity mate. Also lenin, why revenge and murdering. Communism is about loving and harmony and peace after its attainment of power. Nobody should opress. If you want to oppress then adhere to the principles of fascism. Wait, you already do :)

[lenin]

2 examples? you didn't ask me to give examples!!!! i said countries LIKE korea and cuba, you could say the same for all the countries apart from china and china hasn't got a massive poverty problem.
CF, communism isn't about loving peace!!!! these liberal pricks have got to you too!!!! i can't bleieve it, you must have been bribed by one of these liberals because when a capitalist calls a stalinist a fascist, somethings wrong there!!!! remember what lenin said, "fascism is capitalism in decay".

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin do you think that in Marx's writings about communism he sought to murder and oppress and terrorise the population after the communist attainment of power. Of course not. His theories represent equality, prosperity and fairness, these are not to be attained through violent measures as was evident in the case of the Russian Revolution. With no classes in communism there is to be no conflict

[lenin]

CF, define your version of equality? when i speak of equality, i mean economic equality. not everyone is paid the same, but everyone is born the same. ie no hereditary privalages. too many liberals have hijacked communism for there won beliefs and have perverted marx's writings. they have twisted the great marx writing's to justify there own selfish interests. communism is purely an economic system. yes, controlling the economy will bring social power and therefore, economic equality will bring social equality. but, like the economic equality, it will be for those who deserve it. like skilled workers who work really hard, they will be rewarded. but people aren't going to be rewarded with equality just for the sake of it! everyone should be born with an equal chance. not just given equality for being lazy.

[lenin]

BTW when i say you shouldn't be given equality for being lazy i mean economic equality. you would still be sen as an equal member of society and given the same oppurtunities to better yourself (ie free education or training).

[Fabi]

FIRST:
if you could REALLY reduce communism or the communist manifesto to that one quote about the abolishment of private property, then why did marx and engels write a whole manifesto, and not just that one sentence? would have saved them a lot of time, i suppose...

SECOND:
i already said something about homosexuality somewhere else...
Quote: from Fabi on 8:38 pm on May 29, 2002
i suppose impotent men shouldnt allowed to have sex or to marry: THEY DONT REPRODUCE

i suppose women who dont get their period anymore shouldnt be allowed to have sex and should be forced to divorce: THEY DONT REPRODUCE


homosexuality is perfectly natural. what does it do? what is there positive that it does?
it makes homosexuals happy and lets them lead a fullfilled life: IF THEY ARE HAPPY AND HEALTHY THEY WILL WORK AND SUPPORT THE ECONOMY

masturbation doesnt lead to children. should it be outlawed? NO, IT IS NATURAL: PEOPLE ARE PSYCHOLOGICALLY MORE STABLE WHEN THEY MASTURBATE. also the sperm quality gets better if you masturbate once in a while (i suppose that doesn apply to women, but that is not my point)


suppressed (or oppressed) homosexuality and other needs similar lead to psychological problems. a person with problems wont be able to do good in a society. so HAPPY (in lack of a better word) homosexuals are more likely to be FOR the system that LET THEM BE HAPPY and will be more likely to work within that system.

that only to contradict you.... my god... arent you all proud of me that i am so reasonable and didnt say FUCK YOU a single time? gee, i am so proud of myself...... ;) ;)


also i dont think that homosexuals/bisexuals have to prove that it is natural to be that way. they dont do any harm to anyone.
tell me where the danger is because i dont think there is any.

also the thing about reproduction is stupid because there are enough people reproducing already.

[lenin]

Fabi, go to one of the MANY threads where the discussion about homosexuality has come up. you'll find my views there.

[Capitalist Fighter]

homosexuality is a controversial issue to say the least. Here is my opinion of it.
It doesn't bother me if somebody is a homsexual, it's not like i lose sleep over it. I don't think you can ban it or anything like that. Whatever somebody wants to do. However i don't think homosexuals should begin to attain the same rights as normal parents when it comes to IVF and caring for children. I concur with lenin and with nature that homosexuality is not nature, as proven in the animal kingdom, however many people have been corrupted and adversely influenced by things such as parental beatings and sexual abuse. For the sake of children i don't think they should be brought up with single sex parents. Nor do i think there should be things like the mardi gras, that is just stupid, you don't see me celebrating my hetresexuality. I don't think homosexuals should be banned or mistreated but neither do i think that the idea that homosexuality is natural and alright should be put upon young children whose minds are easily moulded.
I am not homophobic in the sense i don't fear them or hate them. It is their business what htey do but let's not make it ridiculous in the sense of spreading the misconception that it is good for children to be brought up in a homosexual environment that could influence their sexual preferences.

[guerrillaradio]

Lenin,

"BTW guerillaradio, glasnost is russian for openness, it meant freedom of press etc, it had fuck all to do with the economy. your thinking of peristroika (re-structering)."

My mistake. Sorry... :)

"1-revenge, we need to show the bourgeoises what it feels like to be oppressed."

And then the "bourgeioses" will take revenge on you. Vengenance is no valid reason to implement a political system. If anything, it makes it less moral actually.

"2-to rout out counter-revolutionaries. to kill all enemies of the people and all class enemies."

Apart from the fact that if the current British system was to "root out counter-revolutionaries", then you would be in a gulag by now and therefore unable to spout rhetoric on the internet, and apart from the obvious (to me) injustices of what you are suggesting, why should the proleteriat be anymore effective at countering threats than the bourgeiouse??

"3-to consolodate the communist party's power so the party can have enough time to implement its socialist reforms without hinderence."

That's all well and good, but you are making a dangerous assumption that the party will work in the proleteriat's interests. How would you ensure that they did??

"4-to make the party's socialist reforms pass through quicker (no oppositio to them)."

Once again, the dangerous thing about having no opposition is if the party becomes self-interested, there is no way of stopping bad laws being passed. How would you stop this happening??

"...dictatiorship of the prolateriat is a key element of marxist-leninism. as a marxist, you should know that."

I'm not a Marxist. I'm somewhere around libertarian socialist, which probably explains why you don't like me very much. :)

"why don't you tell me your ideas on implementing communism?"

The only way in which communism could be fairly implemented was as part of a democratic system. Protest and free speech are quite possibly the most basic rights us, as humans have. As you would say, it is "natural". Although democracy has its pitfalls (undoubtebly), it is the fairest method we as human beings have to control government. If the proleteriat really is so keen on Stalinism or Marxist-Leninism, then how come all the hardline communist regimes internationally are undemocratic and unpopular?? In countries such as Cuba, Moldova and North Korea, the proleteriat (or, desperately poor and starving in Korea) have a huge majority over the bourgeiouse.

"the thing these idiots don't realise is, more people do think like you and me than they do them!"

That's debatable, but even so, Bush has 88% popularity in America. All the Communist and Anarchist parties combined have less than 0.1%. Your point being??

Red Soviet,

"Why would I beleive some kid naming himself after a Rage Against The machine song????"

Fine, don't then. It's no skin off my teeth. Why should I believe someone pledging his/her allegiance to a mass-murdering system though???

"I get all my facts from reading. And going to school. you should the same!!!!!!!!"

I do, funnily enough. And that's where I learnt some of what I know. However, I have met many a Stalinist who just rebukes everything taught at skool as "capitalist propaganda" so I no longer bother quoting it as a source to them.

"It's not natural to be gay. And if anybody can prove me wrong on this to i would like to see it!!!!!!"

The whole concept of what is natural and not is arbitary, as humanity has evolved over the last 2 million years. Even if "naturality" was to exist, and even if homosexuality was "unnatural", then that is no reason for banning it.

PS - Pa, thanks for calling me intelligent....and you're quite right in saying I'm not 12.

[Capitalist Fighter]

to extent on my previous post, in relation to people's right to raise children, i also think that parents such as those unable to have kids, single parents, etc should not use the IVF method of creating a child using the "test-tube" method. There are millions of orphans around the world that seek to be adopted so i don't see a point in parents wanting to by pass these innocent souls by creating other children who will never experience or suffer as them. Surely if you were to employ the queue theory then these orphans would come first. No point adding to the worlds problems by unnaturally creating babies. I disagree with that totally. People should only be allowed to adopt if wanting children as these kids too deserve a chance at life.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from lenin on 8:57 am on June 1, 2002
2 examples? you didn't ask me to give examples!!!! i said countries LIKE korea and cuba, you could say the same for all the countries apart from china and china hasn't got a massive poverty problem.


yeah but when u got a point u usually do give examples dumbass.

So laos isn't a poor country? please these nations cant even be compared to us in the west in terms of wealth.

I would rather serve under a country that is unequal like america,than serve under shitty old china.

[lenin]

go to my post, 'the soviet economy'. here i explain why communist economies fucked up and how they can be corrected.

[lenin]

"And then the "bourgeioses" will take revenge on you. Vengenance is no valid reason to implement a political system. If anything, it makes it less moral actually"

no, we would of killed the bourgeoise. there will be no bourgeoisie left to take revenge.

"Apart from the fact that if the current British system was to "root out counter-revolutionaries", then you would be in a gulag by now and therefore unable to spout rhetoric on the internet"

i think i could live with not being able to spout my 'rhetoric' on the internet. i would find another way to get my point across. anyway, i'm not trying to start a revolution in england, i'm not even english!

"I'm somewhere around libertarian socialist, which probably explains why you don't like me very much."

more like social democrat. which = social fascist according to lenin.

"That's debatable, but even so, Bush has 88% popularity in America. All the Communist and Anarchist parties combined have less than 0.1%. Your point being??"

i wasn't reffering to USA. communist parties in USA are not communist anyway! i was reffering to anti-revisionsit parties vs libertarian communist parties. there is not 1 libertarian communist government and there is about 15 anti-revisionist.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Guerrillaradio explain your self when you said "..why would I beleive someone pledging his/her self to a mass murdering system??? When did I say I pledged myself to a mass murdering system??? Qoute me when I said that!!!!! Stupid ass!!! I don't remeber me saying that. When you say that you no longer bother to give a source thats your bullshit excuse because you don't have a source!!!! Isn't funny that capitalist are starting to defend what you are saying!!!! Just give this site to the real communists a go on your way with the capitalist. Oh wait a minute you are a capitalist guerrillaradio!!!!

[Ernest Everhard]

if someone said they were a nazi, you would distrust them for pledging themselves to a "mass murdering" system, even if they did not stand with their right hand in the air and swear their fealty to a "mass murdering system" Likewise because Stalinism despite your feeble rehabilitations of it is a "mass murdering" system, your support of it implies that you have pledged yourself to a mass murdering system.

[RedSovietCCCP]

All I'm going to say ernest is read the stuff I have wrote in this thread or other threads that support yours or other liberal so called communist that I support a mass murdering system!!!!

[Fabi]

capitalist fighter ( i think it was you),

as a matter of fact there are homosexual animals...
for example a couple of years ago there was this couple of male storks in some town a couple of miles away from where i live, who came there every year and built nests (i hope i didnt make up that word) and stuf.f...... when one of them died, the other did, too, a little while after the first did...

i know that that doesnt prove anything, and i could just be making it up... but maybe if i am bored, i'll try to find stuff about it....


just in general:
homosexuals corrupt your children?
homosexuals ARE your children!

dont remember where i got that from... think it's funny....
;)

[Fabi]

"The FABULOUS
- - - - - - - - kingdom of GAY animals


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A BIOLOGIST OFFERS THE FIRST VISION OF A TANTALIZINGLY DIVERSE NATURAL WORLD: NOT ALL ANIMALS ARE STRAIGHT ARROWS.


BY SUSAN McCARTHY | The scientist gasps and drops the binoculars. A notebook falls from astonished hands. Graduate students mutter in alarm. Nobody wants to be the one to tell the granting agency what they're seeing.

A female ape wraps her legs around another female, "rubbing her own clitoris against her partner's while emitting screams of enjoyment." The researcher explains: It's a form of greeting behavior. Or reconciliation. Possibly food-exchange behavior. It's certainly not sex. Not lesbian sex. Not hot lesbian sex.

Six bighorn rams cluster, rubbing, nuzzling and mounting each other. "Aggressosexual behavior," the biologist explains. A way of establishing dominance.

A zoo penguin approaches another, bowing winsomely. The birds look identical and a zoogoer asks how to tell males and females apart. "We can tell by their behavior," a researcher explains. "Eric is courting Dora." A keeper arrives with news: Eric has laid an egg.

They've been keeping it from us: There are homosexual and bisexual animals, ranging from charismatic megafauna like mountain gorillas to cats, dogs and guinea pigs. There are transgendered animals, transvestite animals (who adopt the behavior of the other gender but don't have sex with their own), and animals who live in bisexual triads and quartets.

Bruce Bagemihl spent 10 years scouring the biological literature for data on alternative sexuality in animals to write "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity," 768 pages about exactly what goes on at "South Park's" Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary. The first section discusses animal sexuality in its many forms and the ways biologists have tried to explain it away. The second section, "A Wondrous Bestiary," describes unconventional sexuality in nearly 200 mammals and birds -- orangutans, whales, warthogs, fruit bats, chaffinches.

Bagemihl's dry style is obedient to the precepts of scientific writing. He explains why animals can be called homosexual or bisexual, but not gay, lesbian or queer, and he follows the rules -- though "homosexual" frightens some who prefer terms like male-only social interactions, multifemale associations, unisexuality, isosexuality or intrasexuality. (Fortunately, as a book reviewer, I am not bound by this rule. We're talking gay animals!) Yet the book is thrillingly dense with new ideas, and with scandalous animal anecdotes. In other words, an ideal bedside read.
"

source: http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/co...15featurea.html (http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/cov_15featurea.html)

[guerrillaradio]

Lenin,

"no, we would of killed the bourgeoise. there will be no bourgeoisie left to take revenge."

Right, so you're gonna eliminate a whole class?? Firstly, how do you class bourgeoise?? It's very shady, at least in this country. In fact, the bourgeoise may well not exist. Secondly, how can you generalise a whole "class" as bad?? Do you really think that people's class background is the sole factor in their personality and morality?? And how do you know that the proleteriat's really so grate?? In the UK, the vast majority vote Tory or Labour, and think that Commies should be in prison. Would you really like to be dictated by them??

"more like social democrat. which = social fascist according to lenin."

Right...good ol' Lenin. How exactly he came to that conclusion is beyond me, still it must be right, cos this guy never got anything wrong. He's not Jesus y'know.

"there is not 1 libertarian communist government and there is about 15 anti-revisionist."

And this proves what?? That anti-revisionist parties are prepared to use force to stay in power, no matter how unpopular they are?? Do you really wanna live in a police state?? Did you not learn anything from Animal Farm and 1984??

Red Soviet,

"Guerrillaradio explain your self when you said '..why would I beleive someone pledging his/her self to a mass murdering system??? When did I say I pledged myself to a mass murdering system???Qoute me when I said that!!!!!"

Your name is Red Soviet CCCP, as I'm sure you know.

Red = Socialist/Communist/leftist
Soviet = Russian workers' council, the basis of Bolshevik Communism
CCCP = Russian for USSR

So your name roughly means "Communist USSR". Very few people have an ironic username on this forum. For instance, Lenin is so-called cos of his slavish adherence to Leninism. El Che is so called for his admiration of Che Guevara (just examples). Therefore, we can safely assume that you are pledging support and/or allegiance to Communist USSR (that is, Russia and its surrounding nations and sphere of influence from 1917-91) from your username. Now, in that time in Russia/USSR, many, many, many people were murdered. In fact, millions were murdered during Stalin's purges alone. Does millions make a mass murder?? In my mind, yes it does.

"Isn't funny that capitalist are starting to defend what you are saying!!!!"

Well no, it's quite refreshing actually. It's helpful to know that if you ever try to take over the world and eliminate whole classes, that the vast majority of the world's population will fight alongside me to keep you out.

"Just give this site to the real communists a go on your way with the capitalist. Oh wait a minute you are a capitalist guerrillaradio!!!!"

That's right. I don't advocate the killing of millions and complete suppression of free speech, therefore I must be a capitalist. How very immature...

[lenin]

you don't know shit about communism you know! anyway, i'll let fidel tell you about the dictatroship of the prolatriat:

"after the revolution, the exploited will rule over the exploiters"-fidel castro

it is such a BASIC area of marxist-leninism. you crush the bourgeoisie until they dissapear. how do you know who they are. simple, they are the people who are opposed to working class rule.
and what the fuck gives you the right to speak about lenin like that? he was possibly the greatest man ever and you speak as if the man knew nothing. he called people like you social fascists because fascists (back then) were bourgeoisie, your social democratic, pro-borugeois views leads me to believe you are a member of the bourgeoise (or a trotskyist, no differenc really). therefoe, you are a social fascist!
do i wanna live in a police state? i already did and will again soon. the good thing is though, i'll join red army, and i'll be policing it! and looking for social fascists like you!
and what are you doing comparing jesus to lenin? lenin was much better!!!! don't tell me you are religious aswell???? you aren't much of a communist are you?
are you a member of a political party? i'd like to hear who it is.

[guerrillaradio]

"you crush the bourgeoisie until they dissapear. how do you know who they are. simple, they are the people who are opposed to working class rule."

So, basically, bourgeiouse are what you call counter-revolutionaries. What about the multitudes of centre or far-rightists in the working class?? Are they allowed to survive or do you kill them too??

"and what the fuck gives you the right to speak about lenin like that?"

The fact that this is a forum and the UK doesn't have secret police to hunt down dissenters...what a stupid question.

"he was possibly the greatest man ever..."

Wow, people said the same about Stalin during his time. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the worship of a leader by his people. Your so-called anti-revisionist party in North Korea tells its people that their leader is a God. It's disgusting.

"he called people like you social fascists because fascists (back then) were bourgeoisie, your social democratic, pro-borugeois views leads me to believe you are a member of the bourgeoise (or a trotskyist, no differenc really). therefoe, you are a social fascist!"

Right, OK then, whatever...it doesn't really bother me what you call me. I've already told you that I am somewhere in between libertarian socialism and anarchy.

"do i wanna live in a police state? i already did and will again soon. the good thing is though, i'll join red army, and i'll be policing it! and looking for social fascists like you!"

Are you trying to threaten me?? You'll be in the Red Army, therefore you'll be part of the exploiters, as Orwell says. I assume you've read him, his views are pretty close to mine when it comes to totalitarian communism.

"don't tell me you are religious aswell???? you aren't much of a communist are you?"

I am about the most anti-religious person you'll ever meet. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick in your assumptions. I was merely comparing your worship of Lenin to Christian's worship of Jesus. Nietzsche calls it "slave morality". You attack religion yet your conduct towards Lenin and Leninism has all the hallmarks of religious worship.

"are you a member of a political party? i'd like to hear who it is."

No I'm not. I stand alone in my political views.

[lenin]

"What about the multitudes of centre or far-rightists in the working class?? Are they allowed to survive or do you kill them too??"

they would be allowed to work within the communist party. rightists would be national bolsheviks and centerists would be allowed there views on social issues as long as they went along with the communist economy and core issues.

"Are you trying to threaten me??"

no. i don't believe in threatening people on internet boards. its stupid!!!!

"You'll be in the Red Army, therefore you'll be part of the exploiters"

not true. the red army (everyone still refers to it as the red army) don't hold any political power anymore. i have said before i beleive russia could be in-line for a military style coup (with the kprf). if this happens, i will be part of the exploiters. but i will be exploiting the people who deserve it.
no, i never read any of orwell. from what i heard he is quite good but is anti-authoritarianism. is this right?
you stand alone in your political views? that i can understand!!!!

[Fabi]

well, i dont think there are too many people who are a hundred per cent comfortable with any political party...

[guerrillaradio]

"they would be allowed to work within the communist party. rightists would be national bolsheviks and centerists would be allowed there views on social issues as long as they went along with the communist economy and core issues."

Core issues such as what?? No rights for gays, blacks or Jews?? The far-rightists will love that...your party has more in common with the right than the left to be honest.

"the red army (everyone still refers to it as the red army) don't hold any political power anymore."

So on whose authority will they be "hunting for social fascists such as me"??

"i have said before i beleive russia could be in-line for a military style coup (with the kprf). if this happens, i will be part of the exploiters. but i will be exploiting the people who deserve it."

And who the fuck are you to decide who "deserves" your exploitation? What a fucked up idea...

"no, i never read any of orwell. from what i heard he is quite good but is anti-authoritarianism. is this right?"

That's the basis of his ideas. He was a Communist, but was swayed by his experience in the Spanish Civil War. I suggest you read Homage to Catalonia (a non-fictional account of the Spanish Civil War through his eyes), and then Animal Farm, a critique of Soviet and Stalinist Communism. Then read 1984, a general attack on authoritarianism and totalitarianism, in whatever form it takes.

[lenin]

Fabi, i agree that no-one will find a poitical party were there views are represented 100%. but i feel, if you are thatr dedicated to your view, you will join a party with similar views and find a way to work within the party to get them heard (your views).

[Capitalist Fighter]

guerillaradio you are really impressing me with your posts. Lenin, learn from him.

[lenin]

core beliefs: check my post called 'yunovskyism' in the theory forum.

"And who the fuck are you to decide who "deserves" your exploitation? "

i would be part of the ruling class....the prolateriat!!!! thats what would give me the right!!!! what right does the bourgeois government have to exploit me? m government would simply turn the tables to see how they like it (not necessarily all capitalists, just the bourgeois exploiters)!!!! then when the bougeoisie have been eliminated, there will be equality and no ruling class.

". He was a Communist"

i'll have to look into that. if he was an anti-authoritarian, he would of been opposed to dictatroship of prolateirat yes? therefore, he is no communist. like you!!!!

[lenin]

BTW, about your outbursts on lenin. IMO there is no place on the left for anti-leninsm. an anti-leninist is an anti-prolateritat and therefore, you belong on the right!!!! as a social fascist!!!!

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin, in reference to who's turn it is to exploit, "two wrongs don't make a right".

[lenin]

CF, reveal your source!!!! that goes against all of lenins writings and teachings including the dictatorship of the prolateriat AND what he actually did when he got into power!!!! i want to hear where you got that from????

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin that is a common and accepted english phrase. Dictatorship of the proletarian is not meant to be an oppressive rule. It is meant to be a government by the majority for the majority. No violence, no tyranny, nothing like that, unlike in the mind of Stalin, it is not meant to last forever.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Capitalist Fighter on 3:48 pm on June 2, 2002
lenin that is a common and accepted english phrase. Dictatorship of the proletarian is not meant to be an oppressive rule. It is meant to be a government by the majority for the majority. No violence, no tyranny, nothing like that, unlike in the mind of Stalin, it is not meant to last forever.

That I agree with.

[Fabi]

hey lenin, i think at the beginning of this post you claimed (or agreed with it) that communism could be, according to marx and the manifesto, reduced to the abolishment of private property.

thus, you can be anti-authoritarian and still be communist as long as you oppose private property...

:D

[lenin]

sort of. marx also said that abolition of private property must be carried out through violent means and this was agreed by lenin. you may beleive in abolition of private propery and still be a liberal, but you'd also be a dreamer. a government needs to be strict in order to keep the economy centralised. if the bourgeoisie doesn't fear prolateriat (governemnt) reprisals, they will do whatever it takes to regain there power. this is a leninist principle.

[guerrillaradio]

Lenin,

"m government would simply turn the tables to see how they like it (not necessarily all capitalists, just the bourgeois exploiters)!!!!"

CF is right when he says "two wrongs don't make a right". Revenge has been the fuel behind the vast majority of wars. It is not a valid emotion, and clouds the minds of people with otherwise lucid thought. Morality can not be attained through a programme of vengeful attacks on a class simply cos of their beliefs, ideals and circumstance. Our most basic human right is the right to speak our mind. To repress that is to repress humanity.

"then when the bougeoisie have been eliminated, there will be equality and no ruling class."

Don't talk of equality!! How can a homophobic anti-semitic who denies freedom of speech and press create equality?? To quote Mandela, "your system enshrines not equality but its opposite". He, of course, was talking of apartheid.

"if he was an anti-authoritarian, he would of been opposed to dictatroship of prolateirat yes? therefore, he is no communist. like you!!!!"

He fought with the Communists in the Spanish Civil War and joined a local communist party. I'm not sure whether Orwell supported a dictatorship of the proleteriat. He was angered when Russia went Stalinist and all human rights were taken away. In both his books he claims that the rulers just become the ruling class, and the general population (or proleteriat, as you call him), become the exploited. I guess his point is that corruption is almost unavoidable when presented with that much power. I seriously suggest you read him, as it questions the system you believe in. Maybe then you will understand where I am coming from.

"an anti-leninist is an anti-prolateritat and therefore, you belong on the right!!!!"

How did you reach that conclusion?? Are socialists rightists then?? How about Trotksyists?? Mensheviks?? Lenin isn't and wasn't the beginning and end of leftism. In fact, many claim he wasn't leftist at all cos several of the policies he employed were quite rightist.

"if the bourgeoisie doesn't fear prolateriat (governemnt) reprisals, they will do whatever it takes to regain there power."

Hmm...interesting. You're gonna run a government based on fear cos you don't trust bourgeoisie. You're gonna make the whole population live in constant fear just cos of some injustices that may or may not have been done by a arguably nonexistent class sometime ago. It's out of proportion.

CF - Thank you, you have made some good points too. I'm interested as to your political standing though.

[James]

Their dreams remind me of the dreams of a certain man called hitler.

[Michael De Panama]

I can't have a constructive debate with you, fascist. You don't want to lose, even if you are in the wrong. You don't think for yourself. What I'm seeing here is you arguing what V.I. Lenin's beliefs were. Who cares? Argue what makes his beliefs right. Think for yourself, you fool.

And then we have RedSovietCCCP here patting Lenin's ass every chance he gets.

I never really understand why you use the "abolition of private property" as an offense towards me. How am I not a true communist, if I also support the abolition of private property? Guess what? I also support a classless society where all economic production is equally distributed. Yes. I support THE REST of what communism is about.

Lenin here doesn't support equality. He said it himself. He supports class division. He supports FASCISM!!

[James]

Equality and liberty can only exist HAND IN HAND.

ie, can't happen without the other.

James

[lenin]

equality, for the working class, liberty, for the working class, equality and liberty for the communist party, which IS the working class (that is basic marxism!!!!).

"How did you reach that conclusion?? Are socialists rightists then?? How about Trotksyists?? Mensheviks?? Lenin isn't and wasn't the beginning and end of leftism. In fact, many claim he wasn't leftist at all cos several of the policies he employed were quite rightist."

you are fucking scum!!!! how the fuck can you compare fucking menshevism to leninism???? you fascist bastard!!!! i could right a fucking epic on this but i'll keep it short. leninism=prolateriat menshevism=judaism. i can not believe this!!!! menshevism wanted the revolution to be led by middle class, what???? what a stupid fucking thing that was!!!! trotskyism isn't much better. he said some good things but he was basically a arrogant and bitter man when he said them. i can't believe you called lenin a rightist!!!! you fucking moron!!!! do you know anything???? you are not no comrade!!!! fuck off and join the fucking labour party or fuck off to israel with your jewish friends!!!! you have nothing to do with the movement i follow!!!!
i don't 'trust' bourgeosie? you cannot be prolateriat with that comment!!!! you have no idea do you?
you even quote mandela who was a fucking capitalist!!!! unbeleiveable!!!!
de panama, as much as i thinh you know fuck all about communism and are generally a moron, you have got a slight point with your post.
the reason nazis have recently become strong is no matter what, they stick together. some have socialistic beliefs, some have capitalist beleifs, some want to kill al jews, some want to just be more patriotic to there country. but no matter what, they are all part of the same party. considering me and you both share the basic communist belief of abolition of private property, we should be comrades. but instead, we hate each other more than we hate capitalists (well, i don't, but you do). this is the problem with the left. i see you as a fascist, and you see me as a fascist. but we should actually unite to destroy capitalism!!!! of course, i wouldn't trust you as far as i could throw you once we got into power, but thats something else. but the truth is, we will never be comrades because i think your views on how to achieve communism are stupid, and your social views about things like 'democracy' and living with bourgeoise are too far from mine. oh well, good job there aren't many communists like you in russia.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Anarchy is better than absolute government

[lenin]

do you not think i wouldn't love to live in a world of complete equality and anarchy? of course i would, but it is not going to happen. not for about 10,000 years when mans nature has evolved and changed.

[Fabi]

i just went to thelyceum.org for a while.... and i think maybe lenin should, too...

i think he is smarter than most people there. and i would hope that he would notice that, and how ridiculous some things really are...


to the matter of 'men dressing up in women's clothes' i would like to say that up til the 1930s women were not allowed to wear pants (or trousers, depending on your politics ;)) .... so why not let men wear dresses`? they are comfortable, in the summertime not too hot...

dressing in clothes that are supposedly 'feminin`' doesnt make you gay or a transexual or anything in the first place....
i would wear dresses, just for a change, but i dont want to get beaten to death by some stupid bunch of intolerante assholes...

i hope i made sense... i just took my sleeping pill that i got prescribed last week and i am getting tired...

[Hattori Hanzo]

I just love fabi's honesty

[lenin]

"i would wear dresses, just for a change"

what the fuck is this world coming too. i'm not even going to get angry anymore. theres no point. every time i come on this forum, i need to take some fucking prozac afterwards.

[Fabi]

hey lenin, i sort of can understand your opinion, but the same things were said when women started wearing pants...

would you beat me up or harras me if you saw me walking down the street wearing a dress? if yes, why?
i dont harm anyone...

goodnight everyone... have nice dreams... (im not on prozac by the way.. ;))

[lenin]

fabi, maybe a couple of years ago i would. today, i wouldn't bother. have my views changed, no. has my attitude changed, yes! i'm getting to the point where i don't really give a fuck about anything anymore. i've lost my revolutionary spirit at 20!!!!
the truth is (in ALL serious now, no bullshit) i've been pretty frustrated after coming on this forum. all i see is apathy and empty promises. not so long ago, i would of got violent and took my frustrations out on someone who had life better than me or whatever, but now, i just get sad. what the fuck is this world i live in? where it is more acceptable to walk down the street dressed as a women, than to want equality for your fellow prolaterian comrade.
the western left really sucks if you ask me. do you know why? it just doesn't appeal to me. ask yourself this questions comrade, how can a party like yours (libertarian) make my life better? because thats what i want, a better life. my life fucking sucks! i've been in this country 10 years now and all i've seen is the destruction of mankind! liberal capitalism. it is polluting all that is pure in our great race (the human race that is).
in the east and the third world, communsim is still pure. it looks after the people who the movement was designed for, the poor! not gays, not jews or blacks or whatever, the fucking poor no matter WHAT your race is. that appeals to me because it says, if i support you, i'll have a better life. liberal communism says, if you support us, there will perhaps be more equality for black people who live 10,000 miles from you, and we might try to make an effort to improve your life if we can find time. but were not going to punish the bastards who have been oppressing your people (prolateriat) for the last 2000 years! because that wouldn't be 'democratic'.
the people who you should be standing up for, are me! the exploited! i'm fucking exploited every day i go into work but what can i do? i can't get an education, it costs money, i can't get training in another job, it costs money, i can't get a company to take me on for training for free because i have a criminal record (my fault i know, but even if i didn't have it, i wouldn't get took on). the only thing i can do join the red army. thats what i'm going to do in the next couple of years after i get some more money.
the west is fucking shit IMO, it is so phoney. if russia ever begins to get like the west, i will serioulsy do something about it, even if i die trying and i am fucking serious when i say that! everything is fucked up completely. the one thing i used to love above all else, was football but look at that these days! you have to pay ridiclous amounts of money to watch motherfuckers who train for 1 hour a day and get paid more in a week than you do in a year. but what do you plan to do about it comrades? IMHO, the agents who are resonsible for this deserve death! plain and simple. not just death, but a fucking nasty death to make it clear to people anyone who tries this sort of fucking exploitation isn't going to live long enough to see the benefits of it! what is wrong with that? is it not fair?
anyway, fuck it. i doubt i'll get through to anyone on this site. maybe your too busy reeping the benefits of western capitalism. and before you point out that i have a computer, 6 of us had to put hard earned money up to buy this so my parents can keep in contact witht there familiy in russia. i could og on forever but i won't bore you anymore, i'll just say this one last thing. don't lose sight of the people you joined this movement to help, the poor.

[Michael De Panama]

The reason Nazis stuck together was because they all had one common goal. However, you and me have totally opposite goals. I want equality, you want a ruling class. The reason Nazis stuck together was because they all believed in fascism. In this case, I am the one who believes in communism, and you believe in the Pravda distorted pseudo-fascist version of communism.

How am I the fascist, you jackass?

Oh yeah, I do not believe in "co-existing with the bourgeoisie". I believe that the bourgeoisie, as the minority of the population, would have absolutely no power in a democracy. Therefore, I believe that they would ultimately be eliminated. I want to destroy all social class. You want to build it. You want to destroy the bourgeoisie, and then recreate a new version of it.

And I will never tolerate that.

[Michael De Panama]

Oh, and by the way, don't you fucking dare tell me that you know more about communism than I do. Should I show you all the times I had to correct you, fool? You didn't even know that the theory of communism advocates a classless society. You know nothing more than what Pravda has brainwashed you into believing what communism is.

I would never support you. You may be proletarian, and I will fight in your favor, but I would never fight for a system that tells me how I should or should not live my own life. I would never want to live in "1984".

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 12:17 am on June 3, 2002)

[lenin]

de panama, look at my last post to see why your stupid liberal communsim is doomed to failure. i want the same goals as you! i want a classless communist society. but i beleive in doing it how marx said. the dictatorship allows the prolateriat revenge on the bourgeoisie and eliminates them as a class. after this, then communism can start evolving into true socialism. if you were to jump straight into a democratic communist society, it would fail because the bourgeoisie would still hold power and to ANYTHING in order to get back there old power. including manipulating the prlateriat with false promises and propaganda. anyway, communism is a workers democracy. democracy, eventually goes into the hands of the workers, because everyone will be a worker because there will be no land owners. key word here is EVENTUALLY, it takes time, maybe 100 years or longer.

[Michael De Panama]

How the hell could the bourgeoisie hold power in a democracy? The proletariat outnumbers the bourgeoisie by far. A democracy would ultimately be a dictatorship of the proletariat. To spell it out for you: A democracy is a system run in the favor of the majority. The proletariat is the majority. Therefore, a democracy would HAVE to run in the favor of the proletariat. Eventually the bourgeoisie would fade out.

Marx's idea of a proletarian dictatorship was this, not your idea that the minority in the government should rule. If a small Party ruled, the Party itself would only replace the bourgeoisie. The Party would exploit the workforce. The Party would take on all attributes of the bourgeoisie.

after this, then communism can start evolving into true socialism.

That makes absolutely no sense. Why would communism evolve into socialism? First off, your vision is not of communism. Communism is NOT the dictatorship of the proletariat, or the dictatorship of the Stalinist minority. Secon, socialism is the transition between capitalism and communism. Is your ultimate plan to revert back to capitalism? Well then your plan worked perfectly in Russia.

anyway, communism is a workers democracy.

Right. Not the bourgeois dictatorship you strive for.

democracy, eventually goes into the hands of the workers, because everyone will be a worker because there will be no land owners. key word here is EVENTUALLY, it takes time, maybe 100 years or longer.

Ah, but in your system there WOULD be land owners. The Stalinist regime would own the land. Stalin, as you surely know (though you probably don't, taking into account eveything else you are ignorant about) was in favor of socialism in one country. Stalin owned Russia. Did he not?

I still demand that you explain to me how I am the fascist here.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 1:34 am on June 3, 2002)

[lenin]

EVENTUALLY, EVENTUALLY, EVENT-FUCKING-LLY!!!!!!!!! you stupid fucking moron!!!! read my fucking post!!!! the bourgousie manipulate the situation and could EASILY get back into power!!!!! how would the stalinists be a minority if the party was free to join???????? you are so ignorant its ridiculous!!!! the party will own the land, then EVENTUALLY (look the word up in a dictionary) the bureacrats will disappear and the workerd will own the land themselves (self-management). E-V-E-N-T-U-A-L-L-Y!!!!!!!!

BTW dictatorship of prlateriat evolves into socialism, socialism evolves into communism. this takes hundreds (possibly more) of years.

and you are a fascist because you are a supporter of bourgeois rights, thats what fascism is, its a bourgeois system. you are not a fascist like hitler, but you are a social fascist like someone like bill clinton.

[Michael De Panama]

what the fuck is this world i live in? where it is more acceptable to walk down the street dressed as a women, than to want equality for your fellow prolaterian comrade.

Who here thinks that oppression of the workers is of less concern than men dressing up like women? Who is harmed from men dressed as women? You are the one who cares. You're just a big hatefull asshole. Stop trying to control the fucking world.

the western left really sucks if you ask me. do you know why? it just doesn't appeal to me. ask yourself this questions comrade, how can a party like yours (libertarian) make my life better?

I'm not a libertarian. I am a democratic Marxist.

because thats what i want, a better life. my life fucking sucks! i've been in this country 10 years now and all i've seen is the destruction of mankind!

To be honest, you deserve the shit life you have. But the solution is the eliminate social class. Once the bourgeoisie is powerless, the proletariat can live without exploitation.

liberal capitalism. it is polluting all that is pure in our great race (the human race that is).

Liberal capitalism? All capitalism is polluting this world.

in the east and the third world, communsim is still pure. it looks after the people who the movement was designed for, the poor! not gays, not jews or blacks or whatever, the fucking poor no matter WHAT your race is.

OUR movement here looks after ALL workers, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual preference. This is what is PURE! So shut up, you racist, misogynist, homophobic prick.

liberal communism says, if you support us, there will perhaps be more equality for black people who live 10,000 miles from you, and we might try to make an effort to improve your life if we can find time.

Liberal communism says that if you support us, all people will be equal. We do not single out any particular race of worker. All people will be equal. Stop your *****ing that we are also anti-racist.

[Michael De Panama]

EVENTUALLY, EVENTUALLY, EVENT-FUCKING-LLY!!!!!!!!! you stupid fucking moron!!!! read my fucking post!!!! the bourgousie manipulate the situation and could EASILY get back into power!!!!!

Haha. Calm down, you twit. I know what you said. What I'm asking you is, how the hell is the bourgeoisie EVENTUALLY going to manipulate the situation and get back into power when they are the MINORITY? A democracy is run in favor of the MAJORITY! Do you think the bourgeoisie is somehow going to multiply like locusts and take over the system? The bourgeoisie is powerless in a democracy absent of money. They will eventually just disappear.

how would the stalinists be a minority if the party was free to join????????

Are you not aware of what the Stalinist regime even looked like? The Stalinist regime was the minority of Russia. How? I don't know, that's just the way you stupid fucks made it. If you aren't even knowledgable about Stalinist Russia then I suggest you don't argue in it's favor.

you are so ignorant its ridiculous!!!! the party will own the land, then EVENTUALLY (look the word up in a dictionary) the bureacrats will disappear and the workerd will own the land themselves (self-management). E-V-E-N-T-U-A-L-L-Y!!!!!!!!

Oh! I get it. Now, I'm going to sit here and stare at a glass of water in front of me, and then EVENTUALLY it's going to get up and dance. EVENTUALLY!! I can't wait.

BTW dictatorship of prlateriat evolves into socialism, socialism evolves into communism. this takes hundreds (possibly more) of years.

Not hundreds of years. Much less. But, uh, are you trying to make some sort of point?

and you are a fascist because you are a supporter of bourgeois rights, thats what fascism is, its a bourgeois system. you are not a fascist like hitler, but you are a social fascist like someone like bill clinton.

No, I do not support bourgeois rights. I support human rights for everyone, regardless of their wealth of social class. I support the destruction of the bourgeois power and a proletarian revolution. I am in the favor of the majority. That's why I want democracy. You, on the other hand, support the recreation of the bourgeoisie through a Stalinist regime. You support a ruthless dictatorship of the minority. You support inequality and social class. You are fascist, in the style of Hitler.

[Michael De Panama]

Oh, and by the way, you have a disgusting signature.

[Capitalist Fighter]

lenin calm down. You complain that people verbally abuse you then you go off and abuse Michael. Chill out. Also one of your recent posts about jews and stuff is EXTREMELY racist and i hope you take that back.

[Capitalist Fighter]

menshevism=judaism. i can not believe this!!!! menshevism wanted the revolution to be led by middle class, what???? what a stupid fucking thing that was!!!! trotskyism isn't much better. he said some good things but he was basically a arrogant and bitter man when he said them. i can't believe you called lenin a rightist!!!! you fucking moron!!!! do you know anything???? you are not no comrade!!!! fuck off and join the fucking labour party or fuck off to israel with your jewish friends!!!!

Some of the most racist and offensive stuff i've ever seen.

[Fabi]

i still think that it is nice of lenin to now beat me up...
i personally think that wearing skirts/dresses/kilts wouldnt harm anyone. it is not part of my 'big plan' or political agenda for men to run around in 'non-male' clothes, but i think that i could do something like that and at the same time still support the people who are being exploited by the system.


i do not think lenin deserves the life he has. i find a lot of his views very questionable, to say the least, but michael, you were the one now, to become insultive again...

yeah, a lot of things are just sad. and some things and some people just make me angry or hopeless.

but in the end we're all human and should try to get along...
(gee, i am such a little self-righteous naive moron... ;))

[lenin]

CF, thats a fair comment about personal abuse. if de panama stops it, i'd be willing to stop too. but i stick by my 'racist' comment 100%. did leonid post anything here on menshevism? he is an expert on how menshevism was nothing like communism. i just know the basic facts about menshevism. but trust me, they were led by bourgeois jews who didn't care for the prolaeriat. and lenin hated them passionatly.

"Stop trying to control the fucking world."

i'm not trying to control the world, i just want to rid it from disease.

"I am a democratic Marxist."

doesn't exist. you may be a democratic communist, but marx beleived in the dictatorship of the prolateriat evolving into a workers democracy. you beleive in achieving 'communism' thorugh bourgeois democracy.

"But the solution is the eliminate social class."

yes but einstein, how do you plan to do that? how are you going to get the support from the working class? this is my whole point! to get into power, you have to appeal to the working class! saying that 'if you vote fro us, everyone will be equal all across the world', is not going to get people to follow you because it is such a far reaching aim. again, why has no-one who thinks like you ever got into power?

"OUR movement here looks after ALL workers, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual preference."

yes but the majority of the english prolateriat doesn't care what happens to the austrailian prolateriat and vice versa. do you understand? they care what happens to them. thats why socialism in one country is appealing to a lot of people. the major concern should be creating a socialist state in your country, then when you have consolodated power, you cn export revolution world wide.

"Liberal capitalism? All capitalism is polluting this world."

capitalism is polluting the world economically, bourgeois liberalism is polluting the world socially.

"We do not single out any particular race of worker."

thats your problem. by not singling out anyone, in turn, your not speaking to anyone. in england, you should speak about socialism for the english, in france, socialism for the french. this should be the first aim. socialism in one country. then, world socialism.

"Not hundreds of years. Much less. But, uh, are you trying to make some sort of point?"

you are selfish. you want communism right away at the expense of future generations because, if you implemented it right away, you would destroy it for good. it takes time to move man away from the selfish individualistic man, to the man who works for the state or communisty, in order to better himself and the community as a whole.
i would relpy to the rest of your points but i have replied to them time and time again. you underestimate the bourgeoisie. many of the western prolateriat are now petty bourgeoisie and would possibly support them. it is easily possible for the bougeoisie to retake power through 'democratic' means. they could rig the election for example.
oh and one more thing, i'd like for you to explain the comment, 'you deserve your shit life', don't seem very socialistic to me, but then again, you aren't socialist, you are a fascist bourgeois.

[guerrillaradio]

"equality, for the working class, liberty, for the working class, equality and liberty for the communist party, which IS the working class (that is basic marxism!!!!)."

So are you claiming you can't be gay or Jewish and working class. What stupid fucking bullshit. And besides, equality for one class is a fascist ideal.

"you are fucking scum...you fascist bastard!!!!!!!! you fucking moron!!!! do you know anything????"

I try to debate rationally with you, and this is how you react. Well done, kiddo...

"how the fuck can you compare fucking menshevism to leninism????"

I didn't. Read my post again you silly boy.

"menshevism=judaism. i can not believe this!!!!"

Neither can I. Once again, you've let fascist generalisations overtake you. Such stereotyping is expected of skinheads in East Germany.

"i can't believe you called lenin a rightist!!!!"

Once again, I didn't. Read my post again. I said "many people" considered his policies rightist.

"you are not no comrade!!!!"

Check for double negatives ;)

"fuck off and join the fucking labour party or fuck off to israel with your jewish friends!!!!"

Jesus motherfucking Christ!! Someone show Rainbeaux this post and maybe she'll understand why so many call for so many bannings. That is purely disgusting. I am not Jewish and I have not stood up for Israel at any point!! If all you can do is respond with vitrolic bile, then fuck you.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Well guerrillaradio in response to your curiousity relating to my political inclinations, i am a commited capitalist however still have some doubt about the system i support. I believe free enterprise and competition should be put into practice however i also think that things such as health, housing and education should be owned by the government and made free to the power as everybody should be entitled to them. I don't like the huge worldwide gap between rich and poor and hope for a more equalling of resources. I believe the government should have more contorl in influencing what is produced so we have more reserach into how to cure cancer rather then how to help somebody get an erection again through viagra. I am not a complete Adam Smith capitalist, maybe lean towards the capitalist Norway, Sweden and to a degree the successors of Cuba. I am odd in that regard. :)

[lenin]

CF, for a capitalist, you have good economic views.

[lenin]

"So are you claiming you can't be gay or Jewish and working class."

no. i would give economic equality to jews and gays. they would be given the same economic oputunities as anyone else.

i'll answer the rest later.

[RedSovietCCCP]

Lenin back on page 19 of this topic micheal states,..." don't you fucking dare tell me you know more about communism than me." Lenin there's no use arguing with these democrats anymore. I have stated all my facts and proved all my points right as you have and they still pull there bullshit opinions out of there ass. And micheal how dare you tell lenin what communism is when he lived in the most powerful commuinst country ever. And how dare a corporate Wal-mart employee tells us what he thinks what communism is!!!!!!!! So shut your fucking mouth wal-mart employee!!!!!!!!! In case you didn't know lenin wal-mart is a big time corpratation in the U.S. Nothing but rich assholes as any corpratation would have and micheal states that he works for them in one of the last threads. And he dares to tell you what communism is!!!!!!! You need to get your shit straight micheal (corporate wal-mart employee)!!!!!!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

Lenin:

i'm not trying to control the world, i just want to rid it from disease.

...By controlling it.

doesn't exist. you may be a democratic communist, but marx beleived in the dictatorship of the prolateriat evolving into a workers democracy. you beleive in achieving 'communism' thorugh bourgeois democracy.

Yes. And I believe in democracy. Not bourgeois democracy, you fool. Direct democracy. Bourgeois democracy is capitalism. It's a mutated form of democracy. I've repeated myself so many times about this: THE BOURGEOISIE THE MINORITY! They have no power in a communist democracy. It's actually FAIR that way.

yes but the majority of the english prolateriat doesn't care what happens to the austrailian prolateriat and vice versa. do you understand? they care what happens to them. thats why socialism in one country is appealing to a lot of people. the major concern should be creating a socialist state in your country, then when you have consolodated power, you cn export revolution world wide.

Global capitalism can only be defeated if it is replaced by global communism. The fact that you don't care whether or not the workers unite proves you yet again to be nothing more than a fascist.

"WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!"

you are selfish. you want communism right away at the expense of future generations because, if you implemented it right away, you would destroy it for good. it takes time to move man away from the selfish individualistic man, to the man who works for the state or communisty, in order to better himself and the community as a whole.

You are the selfish one. You don't even want communism. You just want to trade places with the bourgeoisie. You just want revenge.

i would relpy to the rest of your points but i have replied to them time and time again.

No, I've just repeated them time and time again and you've ignored them because you have NOTHING TO SAY about them. Face it, fool, logic is not on your side, guns are.

you underestimate the bourgeoisie. many of the western prolateriat are now petty bourgeoisie and would possibly support them. it is easily possible for the bougeoisie to retake power through 'democratic' means. they could rig the election for example.

They could rig the election? First off, that's not democratic. With what money would they use to support this crime? Why is it not equally possible for a proletarian to rig the election? It's MORE possible that a proletarian does this, since the bourgeoisie is so small. Since it's a democracy, the little bastard would get kicked out of office if the people wanted him out. This is a pretty far-fetched idea. Come up with something more rational.

oh and one more thing, i'd like for you to explain the comment, 'you deserve your shit life', don't seem very socialistic to me, but then again, you aren't socialist, you are a fascist bourgeois.

Explanation: I hate you. You are worse than the capitalists. I hope that the capitalists exploit you for all you're worth, because you are a sick person. Your signature justifies mass murder. You support fascism. To shorten it down, "Fuck you".

You STILL haven't told me how I'm a fascist.

[Michael De Panama]

RedSovietCCCP, you don't know a damn thing you're talking about, do you?

Who do you think the proletariat works for?

Are you not fighting on the behalf of the mother of five working in an Indonesian sweatshop for Nike, simply because she supports corporate America?

That mother of five is the whole reason we're fighting.

I'm sure Lenin works for the corporate world too. Most of us do. That's why we're proletarian.

Who are you fighting for? The bourgeoisie?

You fucking moron.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

the only reason most of these stupid fucks hates us comrade and calls us red facist is cause we want to purify communism to stop coruptive communist or capitalist,facism.the only reason they hate us is cause we want to abolish all.....we dont want communism to fail or die we want to keep it strong clean like what our father karl marx and fredrick engels said in the communist monifesto.....

[STALINSOLDIERS]

by the way i do not work for a corporet company anymore i work illegaly or by my self thanks you.....

[Reuben]

Quote: from STALINSOLDIERS on 6:22 pm on June 3, 2002
the only reason most of these stupid fucks hates us comrade and calls us red facist is cause we want to purify communism to stop coruptive communist or capitalist,facism.the only reason they hate us is cause we want to abolish all.....we dont want communism to fail or die we want to keep it strong clean like what our father karl marx and fredrick engels said in the communist monifesto.....


Yes... thats right.

*laughs at his own sarcastic*

[lenin]

"Global capitalism can only be defeated if it is replaced by global communism."

you speak as if global communism is something that can be achived overnight! the bougeoisie can EASILY hijack a democratic election because they will have funds from other bourgeois sympathisers abroad! the whole world will not go communsit in one revolution! thats why it is necessary to establish a strong socialist state to further the world revolution. then when the whole world is communist (not that it will happen in our lifetime) democracy will prevail.

thats all i'm going to say for now. i'll respond to the rest of your tirade of shit later.

[lenin]

just saw this:

"Face it, fool, logic is not on your side, guns are."

lol, isn't that irony. remember lenins famous quote?

"one man with a gun, can control 100 without one"

time for you too face it now, fool! stalinist get into power, you just whine and cry and don't get nowhwere.

[Michael De Panama]

Funds from other bourgeois sympathizers? What good would they be in a communist society that doesn't recognize these "funds"? You speak of communism as if it's just a closely monitered version of capitalism.

[Michael De Panama]

Is that all you have to respond to my last topic? You still haven't told me how I'm the fascist here, fool.

[lenin]

so the day after the revolution are you just going to get rid of all money? you are dreaming again michael!!!! what about socialism? that still has money? how can your society exist if you have no money and countries around you have money (because like i said, the world won't turn communist overnight, countries will go communist one at a time)? how will you trade? think before you come up with bullshit points!!!! a capitalist could tear you apart so easily!!!! this is why you are a disgrace to the left!!!! the only people who agree with you are bourgeois mensheviks!!!! and i've explained why you are a fascist. you are a social democrat and lenin called social democrats, social fascists!!!! you are bourgeosie or a bourgeois sympathiser!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

so the day after the revolution are you just going to get rid of all money? you are dreaming again michael!!!! what about socialism? that still has money?

Since I'm not talking about socialism, I don't know why you even brought that up. Make it clear when you talk about things. Or at least think about what you're saying. You still don't see that the chances of the bourgeoisie rigging an election would be extremely slim. It would be more likely that a proletarian rigs the election. Besides, my idea of democracy is one with many different representatives, unlike Western democracy. The bourgeoisie would have to rig many different elections, and by the time they even got close to succeeding they'd get caught. This is a very far fetched argument. Give me one with more common sense.

how will you trade? think before you come up with bullshit points!!!

Why don't you think about what you just said, capitalist?

a capitalist could tear you apart so easily!!!! this is why you are a disgrace to the left!!!!

Hmm...I'm a disgrace to the left? How would you know? You aren't even leftist. You said it yourself that you hated us liberals. The rest of us liberals don't want you. You make us look like fascists.

and i've explained why you are a fascist. you are a social democrat and lenin called social democrats, social fascists!!!! you are bourgeosie or a bourgeois sympathiser!!!!

I've explained to you that I am not a social democrat, or a libertarian, or whatever you want to call me. I am not a bourgeois sympathizer. I do not support bourgeois rights. I support human rights for everyone, regardless of their wealth of social class. I support the destruction of the bourgeois power and a proletarian revolution. I am in the favor of the majority. That's why I want democracy. You, on the other hand, support the recreation of the bourgeoisie through a Stalinist regime. You support a ruthless dictatorship of the minority. You support inequality and social class. You are fascist, in the style of Hitler.

HOW AM I THE FASCIST?

[lenin]

de panama, i'll answer the points later but, completly out of curiosity, what are your vitals? what country are you from? whats you ethniticity? how old are you? and what religion are you?
i'm not asking this in a racist sense but i'm curious about people with your sort of beliefs.

[James]

I'm with Michael on this whole thing. And i live in the UK.

[lenin]

what about ethniticity, religion and age james? i'm don't want to seem rude or whatever and you don't have to say if you don't want but i would be interested.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from lenin on 11:25 pm on June 3, 2002
de panama, i'll answer the points later but, completly out of curiosity, what are your vitals? what country are you from? whats you ethniticity? how old are you? and what religion are you?
i'm not asking this in a racist sense but i'm curious about people with your sort of beliefs.


haha! what [/b]what country are you from?[b] well the DE PANAMA bit doesnt half answer that!

[lenin]

well how the fuck should i know!!!! it might be his real fucking name for all i know!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

Haha. No, It's not my real name. I'm Michael from Panama. I refuse to answer the rest of your questions, as I do not want you to deviate from the initial argument. Maybe I'll answer in another place.

[Fabi]

and lenin, to find out what kind of people we are, go to the lounge forum and look around there... there are several threads concerned with 'who are you and what do you represent....'

18, male, white, blue eyes with a brown-orange spot in the right one, brown hair that gets curly when it grows out long... 188cm... (6 feet 2.5 inches or something like that)
my dick is slightly above average in length and tends a little to the left...


;)

[Fabi]

sorry bout that pointless post up there... it was just too tempting to be stupid, just once.. ;) ;)

[Capitalist Fighter]

lol nice on fabi

[Michael De Panama]

Let's get back to the topic. Lenin, respond to my last post.

[lenin]

". You still don't see that the chances of the bourgeoisie rigging an election would be extremely slim."

if a revolution happened tommorrow in argentina and the communists held elections, are you telling me the USA bourgeoisie aren't going to help rig the election?

"Why don't you think about what you just said, capitalist?"

again, i use the example of argenitna, if they went communist, they would still have to trade with capitalist nation until the world revolution succeded.

"You aren't even leftist."

i'm in the process of trying to join the communist party of the russian federation of the communist party of the soviet union (obvioulsy not the old one, its a party who's main agenda is the reformation of the USSR).

" You support a ruthless dictatorship of the minority. "

i supprt a temporary populist dictatorhisp for the prolateriat.

"You are fascist, in the style of Hitler."

not even worth answering.

[RGacky3]

Lenin is right the U$ will always try and stop any country from becoming communist, with any means possible. How ever I think that democracy can still succed if the elections were not fucked over. If they are but most of the people want communism a revolution is neccessary, after that I think a party, not a person should rule.

[Capitalist Fighter]

who says elections won't be rigged in a communist society?

[lenin]

they could be, and were under stalin! (not multi-party election obviously). "the power isn't in the hands of he who casts votes, the power is in the hand of he who counts votes"-I.V.Stalin. but i wouldn't care about that. i would be more concerend with a bourgeoisie election victory through undemocratic means.

[Michael De Panama]

if a revolution happened tommorrow in argentina and the communists held elections, are you telling me the USA bourgeoisie aren't going to help rig the election?

Of course the US would. That's why the revolution will not and can not happen until the fall of the US itself. The US is the world's bourgeoisie. The collapse of America would be the weakening of all bourgeois power. Even if you had your little red fascist revolution, the US would kill it. Until then, the workers must be educated. The US is going to fall soon. I promise you it will fall within our lifetimes. When it does, the proletariat MUST unite.

again, i use the example of argenitna, if they went communist, they would still have to trade with capitalist nation until the world revolution succeded.

Fuck that. That's too much capitalist compromise. There's no reason why we should have to do that.

i'm in the process of trying to join the communist party of the russian federation of the communist party of the soviet union (obvioulsy not the old one, its a party who's main agenda is the reformation of the USSR).

Your point? A "leftist" is a liberal. You are extremely rightwing.

i supprt a temporary populist dictatorhisp for the prolateriat.

Stalin was not a "temporary populist dictatorship for the proletariat". The Stalinist regime was not intended to be temporary. Everything is temporary if you look at it, but Stalin's goal was not to eventually become democratic. The Stalinist regime is not the proletariat. The proletariat is the majority. A system run by the majority HAS to be democratic. The Stalinist regime was a minority within the proletariat who made everyone's decisions. Stalin himself was turned into a god. Stalin recieved more money, social power, and political power than the rest of Russia. This is NOT communism. This is Hitler-style fascism. This is a ruthless dictatorship of the minority.

Why the fuck would you fight for this? In the end, you're fighting so that people can boss you around. You're fighting for a new ruling class. A new bourgeoisie. Or do you just think that with a Stalinist system YOU will be a part of this bourgeoisie? If so, that's a very capitalist way of thinking.

[lenin]

"There's no reason why we should have to do that."

except to live!!! you need to trade with other capitalist countries until world revolution. or do you believe in socialism in one country? you stalinist!!!!

"Of course the US would. That's why the revolution will not and can not happen until the fall of the US itself. The US is the world's bourgeoisie. The collapse of America would be the weakening of all bourgeois power. Even if you had your little red fascist revolution, the US would kill it. Until then, the workers must be educated. The US is going to fall soon. I promise you it will fall within our lifetimes. When it does, the proletariat MUST unite. "

you need to watch it de panama, i'm in danger of agreeing with you!!!!

"A "leftist" is a liberal. "

ahh thats better!! back to normal and more bulshit comments!!!! how is a lftist a liberal? or have i not exlpained marx's racism enough in the other thread? is marx a leftist? is lenin a leftist? is che a leftist? he was homophobic, that right wing nazi!!!!

"Stalin was not a "temporary populist dictatorship for the proletariat". The Stalinist regime was not intended to be temporary. Everything is temporary if you look at it, but Stalin's goal was not to eventually become democratic. The Stalinist regime is not the proletariat. The proletariat is the majority. A system run by the majority HAS to be democratic. The Stalinist regime was a minority within the proletariat who made everyone's decisions. Stalin himself was turned into a god. Stalin recieved more money, social power, and political power than the rest of Russia. This is NOT communism. This is Hitler-style fascism. This is a ruthless dictatorship of the minority."

the dictatorship lasts as long as it has too. in an under developed country, this could be as long as 100 years!!!! russia was underdeveloped. stalin developed it!!!!

[Michael De Panama]

except to live!!! you need to trade with other capitalist countries until world revolution. or do you believe in socialism in one country? you stalinist!!!!

Of course I don't believe in socialism in one country. I simply do not agree with trade with the capitalist world. Our goal is to co-operate, not to compete and engage in trade. We should not compete with the capitalist world either. If the government started participating in trade, this would give the government too many bourgeois attributes for our own good.

you need to watch it de panama, i'm in danger of agreeing with you!!!!

Haha. I'm glad you at least understand that.

ahh thats better!! back to normal and more bulshit comments!!!! how is a lftist a liberal? or have i not exlpained marx's racism enough in the other thread? is marx a leftist? is lenin a leftist? is che a leftist? he was homophobic, that right wing nazi!!!!

The whole concept is that the liberals are on the left wing, and the conservatives are on the right wing. Marx, Lenin, and Che were all liberal. Again, you have yet to support your argument that Che was a homophobe. Even if so, Che had more than enough liberal qualities to be considered leftist.

the dictatorship lasts as long as it has too. in an under developed country, this could be as long as 100 years!!!! russia was underdeveloped. stalin developed it!!!!

The whole reason Stalin HAD to develope Russia was because Russia had such a small proletariat. Therefore, Stalin took on the role of the evil bourgeois ruler, but much much worse. The most evil of bourgeois capitalists is only a fraction of Stalin. That's how he industrialized Russia in record time. He was a record breaking oppressor.

Since I don't really support communism in nations without a proletariat, I wouldn't support totalitarianism. But yes, I do agree that totalitarianism is necessary in such conditions to act as a substitute for the necessary evil that is capitalism.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Michael in Anderson's book it mention's Che's dislike for homosexuals and though he never stated it in any speeches or texts i think that it is generally well known. A bit of Latin Machoism if you ask me.
Also i greatly admire your quote, how is your quest going to get a picture of that infamous incident. lol. :)

[Guest]

Why shouldn't free democratic nations stop communist nations? It is clear from what I have studied that communism presents a threat to any government rooted in the ideals of free enterprise. The communist manifesto is a seditious call to arms that advocates overthrowing the status quo.
In addition, it represents the classic battle of Good vs. Evil. I fear most of you come down on the wrong side of the line. Theft is wrong, people are not equal and their economic stations should not be equalized by a corrupt system of rule. Ever notice when this equalization happens everyone ends up worse, nobody benefits except the politicians and military leadership?

[Fabi]

guest, it depends on what KIND of equality you are talking about.

also, communism DOES NOT have to be totalitarian or autoritarian at all.
how about libertarian socialism or libertarian communism? (i.e. anarchism)

CF, it might be that che was a macho. however there is a thread in Q&A that you might wanna go to... someone mentioned a quote by che taken out of context.
( i am not an expert on che. NOT AT ALL!)

[Capitalist Fighter]

k thanks, i'll check it out Fabi.

[Michael De Panama]

Where are you hiding, Lenin?

[lenin]

i'm right here. but to be honest with you, 200+ posts of me and you arguing over the same things is getting boring!

[Michael De Panama]

Oh come on, let's go for 30 pages at least. Respond to my last post.

[lenin]

"Of course I don't believe in socialism in one country. I simply do not agree with trade with the capitalist world. Our goal is to co-operate, not to compete and engage in trade. We should not compete with the capitalist world either. If the government started participating in trade, this would give the government too many bourgeois attributes for our own good."

if there is no trade with capitalist nations, at this stage of the revolution, the economy would crumble. there would be no consumer products and there would be food shortages. trade with capitalist nations is essential until the world is communsit.

"The whole concept is that the liberals are on the left wing, and the conservatives are on the right wing. Marx, Lenin, and Che were all liberal. Again, you have yet to support your argument that Che was a homophobe. Even if so, Che had more than enough liberal qualities to be considered leftist."

not true IMO. leftism is economic (left=government control, right=no government control). marx was not a liberal. lenin was not a liberal. che, although a homophobe, was a semi-liberal. when i say i am a lfet winger, i refer to my economic policies.
it is a blatant generalisation to say conservativs on the right, liberal on the left. where do you put laizzez faire liberals? where do you put stalinists? stalinism is economically left but authoritarian. liberal capitalists are economically right and libertarian. its like the poitical compass shows, the left and right wings branch off into different directions. they go up or down depending on personal or social views.

[Vladimir]

Let me start by saying i haven't read pages 3 - 24 but i have to agree with Michael de Panama, i am a democratic socialist and i think that a totalitarinist communist system is too far and too facist.
Lads this is bullshit, democratic socialism is the only ting we can hope for at the moment, its the only way in a great( as in big) capitalist soceity to help the people and keep the rich from getting richer.

Think about it.

[lenin]

democratic socialism=social democracy=social fascism!!!!

i agree that (in the west) this is maybe the best you can hope fore now. but the democratic socialst parties are still parties of the bourgoeisie and cannot be trusted. the above equation is that of vladimir lenins and i agree with it. democratic socialist parties are led by bourgeosie (like tony blair) and are just left on some social issues. they are still capitalists.

[Moskitto]

Tony Blair is not left wing, I have to live in his dictatorship and he is no way left wing.

[lenin]

his party claims to be though.

[Moskitto]

yeah, well his party claims to have done everything in their manifesto even though education, health and rail funding is mysteriously dissapearing.

Some of Labour's backbench MPs are some of the truest socialists out there, but they can't do anything because the party national executive decides everything they do. Blair and his cronies are definitely not left wing.

[lenin]

de panama and other liberals:

go to my thread in GT called 'democracy' as proof of how the bourgeosie can seize power in a 'democratic' country even though they don't have the support of the prolateriat.

[Michael De Panama]

democratic socialism=social democracy=social fascism!!!!

No, idiot. Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy are two very different things. I'm not a social democrat and neither is any other democratic socialist.

if there is no trade with capitalist nations, at this stage of the revolution, the economy would crumble. there would be no consumer products and there would be food shortages. trade with capitalist nations is essential until the world is communsit.

Only if the revolution took place on bourgeois or pre-industrialized ground. The proletariat can manage for themselves without the help of the outside bourgeoisie.

not true IMO. leftism is economic (left=government control, right=no government control). marx was not a liberal. lenin was not a liberal. che, although a homophobe, was a semi-liberal. when i say i am a lfet winger, i refer to my economic policies.

Marx, Lenin, and Che were all extremely liberal. Leftism IS liberalism. The reason this confuses you is that you are so far left that you have come out on the right. We don't know where to place you. Well, I do. On the right, of course.

I would like to go back to your claim that your Stalinist regime would mean equality among all the proletariat. Did you know that in Stalinist Russia, some workers were paid more than others, depending on how much use the authority saw in them? Did you know that the dictatorship itself was in an economic class above the rest of the society? How is that in any way communist?

democratic socialist parties are led by bourgeosie (like tony blair) and are just left on some social issues. they are still capitalists.

Tony Blair has NO part in the Democratic Socialist Party. Again, you can not make the dinstinction between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism. Do I really have to spell it out for you? Please. I hope not. I probably will, though.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Michael i'd have to disagree with your comments on a communist country or industrialised communist country not needing to trade with capitalist ones. They would simply collapse. Chile was a tad industrialised yet the embargo the U.S. put on them suffocated their economy. Trade is necessary in a recently made socialist country however under communism in theory it shouldn't.

[Nateddi]

A country like Chile or Cuba are small countries, which do not have access to all resources. I would agree that they cannot be sufficient without trade

[Michael De Panama]

A country in a communist state does not need to trade. If it is still socialist, then yes it does. But we are talking about communism here.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Well to suffice the population no it wouldn't, however how about a country such as Egypt for instance, let's say it produced enough to provide for the people however to satisfy's the population's demand it needed to grow banana or citrus fruits or something that can't be grown in Egypt or another country because of its land and climate, then surely trade would be needed. However that would go under as consumer product, something the population doesn't necessarily need to survive but ultimatley wants.