Che(eese) Guevara

[AlleyKat]

Why do you people admire this man so much? He, along with Castro's regime murdered countless homosexuals, political opponents, and etc... I don't see how that's anything to be admired just because he fought for sodding socialism.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[spartan]

Well there are naturally two sides to the homosexual question.

One is that they only put them into concentration camps because they wanted to stop the spread of aids.

Now what makes this one stupid is that aids didnt even exist in Guevara's lifetime and homosexuals were oppressed in Cuba long before aids came about, so the "stopping the spread of aids" excuse fails completely as a valid reason for why Cuba oppressed homosexual people.

The other is that Castro and Guevara (Both known homophobics apparently) were simply oppressing homosexual people because of their own prejudices which is the more likely of the two.

The killing of homosexuals in Cuba is something that i and every other true Socialist is 100% against and is something that Cuba should be condemned for (Though Castro has since expressed deep regret that he allowed this to happen).

As for the killing of political opponents well who gives a shit about the Miami exiles and Batista's cronies?

The killing of any Socialist oppostion is wrong of course but i havent heard of any widespread suppression of Socialist opponents of Castro.

Having said all that i respect Castro for his dedicated anti-Imperialism and Guevara for his contribution and service to revolutionary guerrilla warfare.

In the same way as i respect Marx despite his using of racist language when describing a political opponent.

We shouldnt let one aspect of a person completely override everything that they did, especially when they contributed so much to progressive thought and when the aspect in question was such a small part of their personal (And not political) beliefs (Which at the time that they all lived in was the normal view of the majority of people anyway, so we can hardly blame them for thinking what was considered the norm back then).

It still doesnt make what these people did any less wrong though.

[Faux Real]

Homosexuality wasn't as prominent a socialist issue back in the day, so you can't really blame him for growing up where and when he did, but it's condemnable. The political opponents were Batista's cronies so I don't really care.

[AlleyKat]

The killing of any Socialist oppostion is wrong of course but i havent heard of any widespread suppression of Socialist opponents of Castro.

The Communist Party clearly rigs the elections in Cuba :/


Having said all that i respect Castro for his dedicated anti-Imperialism and Guevara for his contribution and service to revolutionary guerrilla warfare.

Hmm perhaps... but I really loathe Castro for living up to every other Socialist dictator and plunging the country into hell via state-capitalism (although to be far I will admit the US embargo hasn't helped).


Homosexuality wasn't as prominent a socialist issue back in the day, so you can't really blame him for growing up where and when he did, but it's condemnable.

I agree, many socialists back in the day were very socially conservative but it isn't their fault as such since they grew up with such values. But still, murdering homosexuals isn't too nice.

[BobKKKindle$]

The Communist Party clearly rigs the elections in Cuba :/No party in Cuba (including the Communist Party) is permitted to nominate candidates for election to government posts - candidates are nominated by individual members of the electorate and community organizations, and once they have been elected, they can be replaced at any time (through a system of recall) and are forced to inform the electorate of their decisions.

How then does the CP "clearly" rig elections? Why should we accept your assertion if you offer no evidence to support your claim?


But still, murdering homosexuals isn't too nice.People were not murdered just because they were homosexual; that is, homosexuality was not a crime that resulted in capital punishment for those convicted. Whereas some people who were homosexual were murdered, their "murder" was not (solely) due to their sexuality.

I don't care about the "murder" of the bourgeoisie. They are expendable.

[AlleyKat]

How then does the CP "clearly" rig elections? Why should we accept your assertion if you offer no evidence to support your claim?

I think people usually vote for someone/something else when their country's inflation skyrockets and such a large percentile of the nation plunges into poverty. I HIGHLY doubt those in poverty would still approve of Castro's reign just to spite "evil American imperialism". :glare:


I don't care about the "murder" of the bourgeoisie. They are expendable.

Priceless, just priceless. I'm starting to like this forum.

[chimx]

their "murder" was not (solely) due to their sexuality.

So you are saying that their sexuality was a contributing factor?

That's not much better.

[Dros]

Yes. Che killed people. He killed supporters of Batista's gov't in which case, I don't care. The killing of gay people is disgusting.

I admire him for being a revolutionary, though not as much as I admire Lenin or Mao.

I don't really understand why he's taken on such an epic stature in pop culture.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

You bring up a point that most historical opponents of Leftism can't seem to comprehend: people are shaped by their environment. Comparing the "rights" one enjoyed in a fully-industrialized capitalist nation like the United States in the 1960s to Castro's Cuba, or Mao's China is just obtuse idealism. All successful socialist revolutionaries that I'm aware of were products of either feudalist societies, or the very first stages of industrial capitalism. Yes, Castro and Che acted as reactionaries on the subject of homosexuality - and that certainly should be condemned - but this is not exclusive post-revolution sentiment. Homosexuals were widely persecuted in Cuba, and continue to be in many parts of the world. Brazil has about 200 reported hate-crime murders each year from the GLBT community. Colombia literally had death squads lining up homosexuals and shooting them in the 1980s. Mexico had sodomy cases right up until 1998. Remember, even Reinaldo Arenas, who documented cases of imprisonment and abuse (not mass murder), has a readership who admits he overstated the problems in Cuba.

On a related note, Cuba now surpasses many states in the union by allowing gay civil unions. Raul Castro's daughter successfully campaigned for GLBT rights.

[jake williams]

I don't really understand why he's taken on such an epic stature in pop culture.
There are probably several factors involved. A lot of it was just timing - when he was doing what he was doing was a good time to be doing it in terms of getting attention in popular culture. Partly it was his personality. And also he was white, but foreign enough to be "exotic".

[Defender]

There are probably several factors involved. A lot of it was just timing - when he was doing what he was doing was a good time to be doing it in terms of getting attention in popular culture. Partly it was his personality. And also he was white, but foreign enough to be "exotic".

Also he is one of the few revolutionaries we can point to whose dreams came true, whose revolution succeeded, giving him vast amount of power, but then gave it all up to become a footsoldier again.

[Marsella]

I don't really understand why he's taken on such an epic stature in pop culture.

People don't wear T-shirts with images of ugly people on them. :/

[Fedorov]

Well Anderson's book, simply called "Che" provides a great source of mostly unbiased information on the man. There is of course no doubt that he did bad things, although most of which are grossly exaggerated, he although stood for an ideal and never backed down. The man was a doctor and pursued his vision of smashing what has and is currently keeping Latin America in the shithole, capitalism. I'd love to see how someone says thats its their own fault or on the contrary, America (for example) helps South America, everyone knows thats bull.
On that note he is of course overrated perhaps but then again so is JFK, what in the world made that man so famous aside from being young and killed? Every movement needs a model and Che was the most recent man that the left can tout about.

[non-vio-resist]

che is more symbolic. as an anarchist, he's not my favorite historical figure and he did some awful things certainly. however, cuba's still a baby. every country has a pretty brutal history and cuba's evolution has only just begun. che and castro (brother's castro) have been downright brutal at times. but socialist cuba is still a baby and any state is inherently violent. the homosexual issue is disgusting; there is no doubt they were terrible on the glbt issue. current theocracies are much worse on this issue, though. cuba currently is pretty tolerable towards the glbt community, while mideast theocracies are, literally, executing homosexuals. also, we must remember that western "democracies" aren't exactly progressive on the issue. 1967: the year homosexuality was decriminalized in england. 2008: the year in which some states in the u.s. do not protect gay employees from their employers, ie, one can be legally fired from their job for being gay. unfortunately it took some marxist's a long time to realize that homosexuality wasn't capitalist decadence; i think castro and che fall into this category.