Colombia defeats the left!!!!

[concerned]

In an unprecedented event in Colombian history, Alvaro Uribe Velez had an outright victory in Colombian elections obtaining 53% of the total vote avoiding the need for a runoff. It shows how fed up the colombian people are with the leftists guerrillas so that they feel the need for a hardliner that really combats their terrorism. Despite's guerrillas threat to kill anyone voting for Uribe, and despite several terrorist disruptions by the guerrillas that didn't allow people in certains regions to vote, people attended in masses to vote against the guerrillas and defend their democracy.

Seems like the guerrillas are going to have to "kill" more than half of the country.

Hurray for Colombia!!!!!
This should send a very strong message to the guerrillas as to the level of their support among colombians.

Death to the guerrillas

[CheGuevara]

Death to AUC scum like yourself.

[concerned]

I am not in the AUC. I don't know where the hell do you get that. I am just another one of the many colombians totally fed up with the guerrillas.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

thyere aint no democracy in columbia thats why the leftist rebles wants to take columbia.......i go for the f.a.r.c if they should kill the goverment soliders,politicians but not the people well some people but now all..........and for concrned your an idiot for real

[Anonymous]

yeh fuck you AUC dude.

[Dynatos]

What is the AUC?

[PaulDavidHewson]

democracy has prevailed in colombia, death to violence! ;)

Those guerillas should focus on voting for a change, instead of killing.

[concerned]

Stalinsoldiers,
What an idiot you are yourself. How old are you son?
For your information, there is a democracy in Colombia, and people attended in masses to vote yesterday. For your information the guerrillas are not trying to take over power, they know that is out of their league and they will never achieve it, all is just a mask to control the drug business and to gain political and economical power.
Please stop talking about things you have no idea about, and grow up!

[Borincano]

concerned,

In my opinion, there is no democracy in Latin America.

Is democracy a people voting for One Leftist candidate that might improve the country, then get killed, exiled, or the nation attacked by the USA because of his (her's) policies or just another up and coming Dictator? Or is it a people voting for Rightistcandidate, whose neoliberalist policies will destroy the nation or will become just another up and coming military Dictator? I don't think so. That is what is happening in Latin America now, plus mass corruption.

There are paramilitary guerillas, whose ultra-right wing army kill more people and sell more drugs in Colombia than the F.A.R.C. How do you feel about them if you really are living in Colombia?

[concerned]

Borincano,

I agree with the mass corruption part only. Yes unfortunately Latin American countries are infested with corruption and this has had a great negative impact on their economies.

In my opinion however, there is democracy in Latin America although it is unfortunately sometimes manipulated by this same corruption and by populist politicians taking advantage of the ignorance of parts of the population. Leave the USA out of it that it has little to do here. Leftist are always trying to blame the USA for everything, its so annoying.

And please check your "facts". Where did you get them anyway from the Farc website?
The paramilitary does not kill more people nor sell more drugs than FARC. FARC is the biggest drug producer and exporter and is responsible for the vast majority of the killings and terrorists acts committed in the country.
The paramilitaries also do not kidnapp civilians for ransom or blow up the colombian infrastructure. Nor di they do put randomly place car bombs in populated areas.

[Needssomeconvincing]

You idiot. Colombia are once taking US money to continue the policy of containment and eradication. They have spend $1,000,000,000 (Count the zeros!) foghting FARC with no results.
This win for Uribe is a very disappointing development

[CheGuevara]

Something like 75%-80% of the human rights abuses are attributed to the paramilitaries. On the drugs issue, I may have to side with Concerned :( , I think while both the guerrillas and paramilitaries are involved, I think the guerrillas are more so.

[samaniego]

You can't leave the US out of this they are supporting the Colombian military effort. Their hand is really deep in there. So dont say lefty's just throw thing's on the US. They really are manipulating things.

[concerned]

Yes, as a matter of fact the US is helping Colombia with billions of dollars to fight drug production and to defend the country against guerrilla's terrorist acts.

And it is going to take a lot more than 1,000,000,000 to fight successfully against Farc, that is why assist from the US is badly needed. Farc earns more than 2,000,000 dollars daily from their illicit activities. They are not precisely poor.

I think the election made it very clear that most of the colombian people agree with Uribe that the only way around this is to be strong and firm with the guerrillas. The US is helping the will of the majority of the Colombian people in achieving this. I fail to see how they are "manipulating things".

It's always the same story with you people, if the US helps with something they are "manipulating" things, and if they don't intervene then they are evil for not caring about the rest of the World. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Che: It might be true that 75%-80% human right abuses are ATTRIBUTED to the paramilitaries. This is done mainly by leftists NGOs and Amnesty International's biased reports. That doesn't mean is true though. AI doesn't even have an office in Colombia and has little clue about what is really going on, they just choose to believe all the stories the guerrillas make up for them.

We Colombians, who have lived the crisis on a daily basis, know better what to believe and know who the real responsibles of all this mess are.

Have the paramilitaries EVER placed a car bomb in a populated area to kill random people as the guerrilla does (in fact just one exploded today in Bogota) ? Do they kidnap people for ransom as a source for income? Do they blow up energy towers and try to contaminate water supplies?

I don't think so...

[CheGuevara]

Do the guerrillas capture towns and slaughter all of the trade unionists?

Yes, Amnesty International knows absolutely nothing. In fact, I bet if you tore off their clothes, you'd probably find cammo fatigues and FARC armbands underneath. We must get the word out, Concerned. AI is really FARC in disguise!

[El Che]

the truth is that the biggest terrorist in columbia is los paramilitares, followed by the gov. that cooperates with them and the usa that helps the gov. help los paramilitares, in last place you have FARC that is the least terrorist of the 4. That being said, I do wish the war would end but it should be done at the negociating table. I question FARC`s methods, but their reivindications are just.

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 12:51 am on May 28, 2002
Leave the USA out of it that it has little to do here. Leftist are always trying to blame the USA for everything, its so annoying.

The USA has plenty to do with this. Please, don't stereotype me, because if you check out the history of every Latin American nation, you would see the USA was and still is a big player in their politics. Look at the new President of Colombia, in one day after he was elected, he asked the USA for help in his terrible english.

Oh, and I never said that the F.A.R.C were an army of angels, but the paramilitaries have done the same things you've mentioned, but in mostly rural areas where the people are poorer and less support from the gov't. Not from the F.A.R.C website, it would be ignorant to base my facts on one source. I love reading up on Latin America, from the left and right point of view. :)

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 9:10 pm on May 28, 2002
It's always the same story with you people, if the US helps with something they are "manipulating" things, and if they don't intervene then they are evil for not caring about the rest of the World. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

No, if the USA helps a nation out of their good heart then I would view that action as good work. Still, if you look into all the things the USA have done in foreign nations, it always had a catch with it. I believe things should be done only from the kindness of your hearts. This is not some propoganda or leftist rhetoric I'm spitting out, but fact! It is the history of Latin America. :)

If the USA don't interve in something, then good, they would probably make things worse in the long run. I would only support their intervention in foreign affairs if someone like Hitler came around again.

[Ernest Everhard]

Quote: from El Che on 4:34 am on May 29, 2002
I question FARC`s methods, but their reivindications are just.



I have no idea what revindications means, but I think you mean their ideals. Which are what. Just cause people wave around a red banner and wear t shirts of Che doesn't mean, A. that they're communists or B. that they give a shit about the poor. The FARC shed their ideology long ago and will proletysize about the struggle of the campesinos everyonce in a while to dupe people such as yourself. Those who stand thousands of miles away from the suffering the guerrillas inflict on the people of Colombia, in the comforts provided for by the capitalist system, and have a hard on for anyone group or person that claims to be a marxist. El CHe I hardly think you're a stupid person and don't believe your that insensitive to the crimes committed by the farc on Colombia, rather I think that your so incredibly opportunistic in your ideological leanings that you'd wish very hard for the Farc to be a leftist guerrilla group. Even sadder than that is the fact that if they were a genuinely leftist guerrilla group, you'd realize that the people of Columbia don't want them either. That's why the M19 guerillas failed in colombia long ago.

FInally the US does more to help than any other nation and particularly in Latin America. I say this as a native peruvian.

[concerned]

Well said Ernest.


Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:05 am on May 29, 2002
Do the guerrillas capture towns and slaughter all of the trade unionists?

No, you are right, they don't. They capture towns and massacre everybody there indiscriminately. Like in Bojaya. No need to be a trade unionist or anything of the sort. They just place bombs randomly and hope to kill as many people as possible.

And you are right about the part that Amnesty International knows absolutely nothing, at least into what respect to Colombia that is. They take a very one sided European naive look at the conflict. They believe all the lies carefully setup and rehearsed for them by guerrilla people doing lobby in Europe since more than 10 years ago.

The problem with most of you people is that you have never been to Colombia and only read the news from the liberal media. You get a totally distorted picture of what is really going on. If any of you ever gets to go to Colombia, please do me a favor, just speak with the people and listen. Ask them what they really think about the guerrillas. Ask as many people as you can. You will notice that most of the people think the guerrillas are one of the country's main problems and that their methods and terrorism is the worst.

The results of the elections are a clear example of what the majority of Colombians think : that with the guerrillas right now there cannot be any possible negotiation because they are just too corrupted and don't really give a damn about anything but themselves. The guerrillas must be attacked with all the military strength possible, and maybe, in the future, this would lead to a serious negotiation.

Uribe is not closing the door of dialogue with the guerrillas. But he is very clear that all terrorist acts must stop before a negotiation can start. There is no point to make a peace talk while the guerrillas continue to massacre the population and only use this time to strengthen themselves and prepare for war. Which is exactly what has been happening in the past.

[concerned]

Borincano,
Of course the US plays a big role in Latin American politics. After all the US is the most powerful and wealthy nation on earth. But one thing is playing a role and one different thing is manipulating things, as you put it. It is usually the Latin American governments that come to the US for help in the first place.

And what you say is just not true. There are tons of things the US have done without absolutely no catch behind it. Why are they spending billions to fight aids in Africa? Why did the go fight into Somalia or the Balkans? These weren't their problems and they didn't get (and did not expect to get) a thing out of it. What could the US possibly get from a poor, war devastated country like Somalia?
There are many examples in which the US gives generously out of the kindness of their hearts. There are other times when there is a "catch" as you like to put it, but the catch is usually beneficial not only to the US but also to the host country. Giving billions in aid to Colombia helps Colombia a lot, and as a consequence it might benefit America in the long run by reducing drugs traffic and helping with the stability of the region. If you want to see this as evil, that is up to you, I see it more like a win-win situation.

[Robin Hood]

First to Ernest.
Peruvian huh...
Well just got to say one thing to those southamericans traitors who are on the side of the US.
If you so much the US why dont you move there?
The US not only stops communism in southamerican but also capitalism. Capitalism is only permited as long as its controlled by the US...says something about it being a bully. This I base on all attempts by southamerican capitalists to start business where they have the upper hand and where they threaten the US monopol.
So if you are true patriots you should fight against the US.
Im not southamerican exactly allthough my parents were and they fled due to deathpatrols controlled and trained by the CIA. They were hunted down not because of being communists as they werent but because of being nationalists who thought southamerica should be for southamericans, they should controll their own countries instead of being lapdogs to foreign companies. Later though they joined the communists as it was the only logical thing to do when they found out that foreign imperialism wasnt just a southamerican problem.
Sadly enough there are many traitors who pledge loyalty to the US. Specially the US allthough Europe and Japan are also guilty.
Southamericans should take full ownership of all natural resources and controll the price, not some foreign nation.
Only a communist has a sense of honour and national pride.

As for FARC selling drugs. They dont, they tax drug producers. And why not? When a farmer is paid alot more for coca leaves than for food products and have to choose between starving or having a half decent life then how can one blame them?
Those billions that the US spend in training traitors to the Colombian people should instead go to improve life conditions for the farmers...but that wont happen. Funny enough, the money the US dump in Colombia end up going to buy US weapons. The money goes straight back into US hands.
Where did you think the money went? Pay salaries for soldiers?
Another funny thing is that those narco thugs have done more the people than the US by financing schools and hospitals in the countryside.
As for FARC killing civilisans...90% bullshit but heck, its war. Been in a field of battle? Can say from first hand experience, partly actually from Colombia as I ironically lately have been working for one of those nice oil companies that are draining Colombia dry of oil and gas while paying next to zero for it. Except small contribution to certain officials. Still, we get the billions, they get the millions. And not very many either.

[Ernest Everhard]

I study in the US now... by the way, my mom was tupac amaru.

Since you've brought up personal information I'd just like to inquire where your parents moved to when they left latin america.

Secondly I'd like to ask where in marxist ideology do you find any sort of endorsement of national pride? Just curious.

Third, traitor? To what?

[Borincano]

Concerned,

That depends on the gov't. I don't think the government of Jacobo Arbenz asked for the help of the USA, nor did Juan Bosch. Pedro Albizu Campos? Please....

I don't think so. You need to do your homework. lol!. It's called obedience, free-market policies, and alliances. I have friends who lived during the wars in Bosnia and all of them said that the USA didn't care for their country, and came too late and acted as if they were the heroes. Those were from those who were there!

The Balkans were a socialist nation, and of course the USA doesn't like those kinds of countries. It was just simply making sure they wouldn't go back into the hands of Serbia and stay socialist.

In Somalia, it was because of a simple warlord (Forgot his name, but very powerful.) whom they wanted hunted down and killed, because of his weapons trafficing to other African nations which would distrupt USA control or crave for corporate control in those areas and neoliberal advocacy. Those are the catches, economics and control.

The CIA alliance with Pinochet to overthrow Dr. Salvador Allende Gossens and establish a neoliberal gov't wasn't exactly beneficial to Chile, but only to USA corporations established there....Pushing for Argentina to take loans from the IMF and swiftly putting down rebellions for worker controls of government controlled businesses that were going to privatized in the name of neoliberalism, wasn't beneficial to Argentina and look where it has taken her? The USA corporations were happy....

(Edited by Borincano at 8:06 pm on May 29, 2002)

[concerned]

Borincano,

An exgirlfriend of mine was from Serbia so I know some people from the balkans too. First of all the problem there had nothing to do with politics, communism had already collapsed and none of those countries wanted at all to go back to it or anything similar for that matter. The problem there was a religious and ethnical clensing. And your friends in Bosnia can say whatever they want but the USA with the allies won the war and got Serbia out of the way. There's a ton of other people happy with the intervention and glad to be able to live in peace and return to their homes.

And the US does not control or crave corporate control in Africa, c'mon, I think you are the one who needs to do your homework. Let's face it, Africa isn't the most attractive place to invest, and most of US missions there have been entierely on humanitarian grounds. The US is not rich because of Africa.

And, wasn't exactly beneficial to Chile? Chile has the best and strongest economy of Latin America right now. In a few years it will be considered a developed nation. And it is in great part thanks to Pinochet which established law and order. I don't even want to imagine the shit Chile would be today if Allende would have continued in power.

And the problem in Argentina, as with many other places in Latin America was and is mainly corruption at all levels. And no, you are wrong, the US corporations weren't precisely happy, they lost millions of dollars because of the crisis, and some of them are even considering leaving the country because they cannot take the burden.

Robin hood:

The US does not allow communism or capitalism in Latin America, ha!! that is the funniest thing I've heard on this board.

Most of the CEOs and heads of corporations in Colombia are in fact Colombian. And most of the money stays in Colombia, you have to check your "facts".

And for Farc selling drugs, they do. You are dead wrong if you think all they do is tax drug producers. They produce it themselves and export it themselves. These have been proven a number of times and there is documented evidence about it.

And Farc do kill civilians, and actually lots of them. I think you need to get informed before writing so much nonsense. How about reading the colombian news paper daily to find out what is going on (www.eltiempo.com). Just yesterday a car bomb exploded in a market in Bogota. Things like this happen every day. Did you even heard about their massacre in Bojaya some weeks ago?

And fyi the majority of money sent to Colombia did go as a matter of fact to pay soldiers' salaries and to give them training. And the farmers' main problem right now is violence and constant extortion and abuses from the guerrillas, not precisely money. If the US gave money to the farmers the guerrillas would take it away in a second. Life conditions of the farmers won't improve until the guerrillas are gone. Actually in the regions where the guerrillas are not present the farmers don't seem to be doing so bad at all.

Your comments reflect a great deal of ignorance and arrogance. You think you can come here and talk about something you obviously know nothing about making up facts as you go. I invite you to do a lot of reading before you make a post next time and think you can teach me the reality of my own country.

[Borincano]

Concerned,

Of course the main problem in the Balkans were ethnic and cultural, but for the USA things as such are always economical. Your little girlfriend might be from the blood of the provoker, but my friends were of the victims and were on the Bosnian battlefields and saw no Americans.

Africa is rich in natural resources...diamonds, oil, copper...etc USA investors don't need to establish factories on the continent, but mines, which they already have. A stable African gov't that allows such exploitation is something the USA craves, that is why they had an involvement in the Congo's Lumumba assassination in the 60's.

If you believe a muderous dictatorship helped any nation in the world, then I would tell you, you are wrong! Hitler's Germany provided economic stability during the depression, was he a good man? No!

Democracy shouldn't be compensated for anything. If you don't understand that, then I guess you are just some neo-fascist or a General in the paramilitaries of Colombia.

Anyway, the reason Chile is improving now after the economic insanity of the Pinochet years is because they voted Pinochet out and voted a socialist in! That is why Chile is in the condition it is now, besides the point that the environment is still in chaos, and worker's wages are actually lower then what they were during Allende's time. All, because of Milton Friedman's theories, the Chicago Boys, and Pinochet's ruthlessness! Don't take my word for it, go to this thread in this forum. How Neo-liberalism destroyed Chile! (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=389)

Argentina's problems was because of mass corruption, just like any other Latin America nation, except Argentina started to privatize faster than any other country in the region. It destroyed many social reforms and the people started to starve. USA corporations thought to benefit from Argentina's new neo-liberal policy, but of course neo-liberalism is a disaster and obviously the foreign corporations have been proven to be ignorant. :)

[Moskitto]

I agree with PaulDavidHewson, The Guerillas should try to concentrate on elections rather than violence.

The PKK recently disbanded to do the same thing.

[concerned]

Borincano,

Please don't try to label all people by the country they are from, my exgirlfriend was from Serbia but she had absolutely nothing to do, nor did she agree, with what her country was doing at the time. And of course your friends didn't see any Americans in the "Bosnian battlefields", it was an air raid operation, remember? They were on planes. And really I don't think the US gained any economical advantage from having freed those territories. Please give me specific facts and examples don't just blurt out things without justification or explanation. Exactly how has the US benefited economically from this? How much is the US richer because of this?

And if you want to talk about African explotaition, Europe is far more involved in this than the US. There has been huge scandals about it from Swedish and Swiss companies. I still don't think the Somalian thing had anything to do with that.

And I never said that Pinochet was a good man or that I agreed with his tactics. What I said is that he was good for the economy. One of the reasons Chile is doing so good is because during that time people learned to respect the law. If there is one thing that amazed me when I went to Santiago was to see, how unlike most other places in Latin America, people respected authority and even obeyed traffic rules. Corruption in Chile is now quite low as well compared to countries in the region.

Chilean people are divided on this. About half hate Pinochet for its human right abuses, the other half think that although there were some mistakes made, overall his regime contributed greatly to the development of their country and to restore order into what before was becoming chaotic.

And I agree with you that privatization shouldn't take place so fast. It is something that has to be done slowly. Anyway, privatization is usually a good thing. Competition and free enterprise usually boost the quality of services and lower prices for consumers. Companies are generally managed more efficiently in private hands than on the government's. The government is usually not very efficient in managing any corporation. Governement controlled corporations are for the most part the most corrupted and bureaucratic companies. Nobody really cares (its not their money they are managing anyway). But yea, privatization should be done slowly and intelligently, its not something to be done overnight.

Lastly I want top say that I agree too with Moskitto and PaulDavidHewson.

[Dynatos]

As long as the U$ is capitalist i think the FARC is doing a good thing by exporting drugs. It supportes a Communist system. Communism is what we want right? If columbia became communist under FARC rule it would be better for them to continue exporting drugs. Exporting druges would fund a communist government at the cost of the capitalist government. Besides... cokain isn't that bad.

SUPPORT THE FARC!!!!! USE COKAIN (responsibly)!!!!!

[Borincano]

Concerned,

I never said your ex-girlfriend believed in what most of Serbia did, I said she was of the "blood of the provoker," meaning she was of Serbian heritage and Serbia committed these evil acts of invasion. Read more carefully. Also, I didn't specifically mean that the USA jumped in the Sarajevo or any Bosnian battlefield, but from what I heard and read, the USA seem to have come too late and did too little. Hey, it's from those who were there and lived the aftermath and outside knowledge of it....

My research on the USA-Balkan economical relations is coming up.

I never said the USA alone has committed horrible acts in Africa, even though I do think Somalia was a piece of a large puzzle. I acknowledge the faults of the Europeans, but my point is, no imperialism should take place, not even from the USA.

It might be great that people in Chile do respect the law, a 17 year military dictatorship might do that. There are pros and cons in such chaos. He made them fear the law, not respect it. There's a difference! Still, no evil should be done to make good. Two wrongs don't make a right, and Pincohet's tactics were something not respectable to his name. Anyway, Pinochet didn't really contribute well to the economy, nor did the 'Chicago Boys.' The country is now improving due to their elected socialist president! Went to that thread I gave you? It presents a lot of facts and resources on why, and I have more books and essays if you would like, proving that fact.

The country was turning chaotic because provocation by the CIA (Which is now know as fact, not conspiracy theory through de-classified documents.) and anti-Allende forces. They couldn't respect the decision of the people in an election. Allende, using Pinochet's tactics, could of easily taken control of the country again, but he would have to kill thousands with his direct orders. Which, of course, he didn't.

My thoughts on privatization is some what less satisfactory. I believe it shouldn't be done at all in most cases. The gov't owned corporations should be given more autonomy and run like a privatized corporations with the difference, it is helping the people of the nation. The lack of it allows it them to become corrupt. Also, I don't think a corporation that isn't doing well should be cased aside for foreign ownership without a lot of tries and looking-into on why it's doing poorly. Puerto Rico and Pedro Rosselló's administration 1993-2001 is a perfect example of how privatization can destroy a region.

P.S.
Here are some threads that would further explain in what exactly I am writing to you and most of my beliefs. I'm not some stalinist who want international communism or socialism. I just want the best for many places in the world, and democracy, (with freedom!) especially mi querida, Puerto Rico. Anyway, here they go:

Nationalization Done Right (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=238)Socialism in Latin America (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=223)
Nationalization in Puerto Rico (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=252)
Theories on Wage/Worker Relationships (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=229)
Independence and Cultural Economics in Puerto Rico (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=442)
The Chicago boys and the Chilean 'economic miracle' (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=389)

(Edited by Borincano at 9:58 pm on May 31, 2002)

[El Che]

Ernest Everhard:

"I have no idea what revindications means, but I think you mean their ideals. Which are what. Just cause people wave around a red banner and wear t shirts of Che doesn't mean, A. that they're communists or B. that they give a shit about the poor. The FARC shed their ideology long ago and will proletysize about the struggle of the campesinos everyonce in a while to dupe people such as yourself. Those who stand thousands of miles away from the suffering the guerrillas inflict on the people of Colombia, in the comforts provided for by the capitalist system, and have a hard on for anyone group or person that claims to be a marxist. El CHe I hardly think you're a stupid person and don't believe your that insensitive to the crimes committed by the farc on Colombia, rather I think that your so incredibly opportunistic in your ideological leanings that you'd wish very hard for the Farc to be a leftist guerrilla group. Even sadder than that is the fact that if they were a genuinely leftist guerrilla group, you'd realize that the people of Columbia don't want them either. That's why the M19 guerillas failed in colombia long ago.

FInally the US does more to help than any other nation and particularly in Latin America. I say this as a native peruvian. "

Reivindications? no? I must apologise, I`m not a native english speaker, what I mean is FARC`s demands in what concerns social justice in columbia and greater equality among columbians, their social reivindications, their demands for a reformed society in which it isn`t only the rich that count. You totaly misunderstood my point I`m afraid, no harm done, honest mistake... In fact I wasn`t refering to their ideology at all, even because to a large extent I dont share their ideology. And what little I share with them, in ideological terms, I also recognise that is not viable for columbia at the moment. Yes I do believe in Socialism, but I also think that what columbia needs now is not Socialism, what it needs right now is peace and some international help to see if it can on one hand stop the crimes against humanity and 35 year civil war and on the other solve its crushing poverty problems.

But you see augostos life isn`t always as we would wish it, and the fact is that until the columbian goverment realises that while you have 5% of the population living in opulence and the other 95% living in in poverty you will have trouble. Thats FARC its trouble, its rebelion against injustice in your face.

And no I`m not insensitive to the crimes that have been commited, all those responsible should be brought to justice on both sides, and that includes the white house too. But what I say is that the solution to the conflict must come not only by addressing the problem "FARC" but most importantly by addressing the problem "social inequality". I dont care how you do it, try and do it the socialist way or try and do it the capitalist way (creating and expanding middle class) but just TAKE CARE OF THOSE PEOPLE! Thats what columbia needs, not arms aid from the US. What columbia needs is to dump the ultra rich oligarchy, and to get concerned about the farmers that have to grow coke to feed their family. What they need is substitution cultures and not poison sprays over farmers houses and crops alike killing both crops and famers alike.

But about FARC... You say they are hypocrites, I say your making intention processes. "Intention processes"? no? oh well.

In any case, I`ll agree that they are out of control and that there needs to be and end to the conflict. Peacefuly, hopefuly.

My point? FARC reivindications are just and need urgent atention! FARC is not the problem, FARC is the reaction to the problem. You fix the problem you fix FARC.

Oh and since we`re on the subject whats up with your name? you like jack london?

(Edited by El Che at 5:25 am on June 4, 2002)

[The Ax]

Hey,
I think you are all wrong. Columbia may need revolution, it may need democracy and the F.A.R.C are not the people to do it. Columbia has become a horrible bloodbath, blood pours from both sides and from innocents. The F.A.R.C, like so many others have become corrupt and irrelavant, they are no longer fighting for the people, they are fighting for the white lines. But I in no way agree with the government, they are the same if not worse. It also shows how influeced you are by the U$A by the fact that you are constantly calling Guerillas terrorists. Latin America needs a revolution that serves the people, not the USA, not the druglords and not the politicians. Thats my two cents neway.

The Ax

[Guest]

Colombia explosion kills nine, wounds two dozen
June 3, 2002 Posted: 1:45 PM EDT (1745 GMT)


BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) -- An explosion believed to be a rebel attack killed nine people, including seven children, injured 24 others and leveled a two-story apartment building and a mini-mart in northwestern Colombia, police said Monday.

The blast shook the town of Chigorodo at midday Sunday, a police officer said by telephone from the village near the Panamanian border.

"We believe it was a FARC attack," the police officer said, referring to the country's main rebel group, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.

Several policemen lived in the apartment building, including patrolman Juan Camilo Puerta Tapias, who died in the blast along with his wife and young daughter, police said.

Witnesses described a thunderous explosion that left a horrifying scene.

"I was in my house and felt the earth shake, and the roofs jumped up," a man identified only as Edwin told El Colombiano newspaper. "I went to see what had happened, and when I arrived, there were two dead children in the street."

Authorities initially thought the blast may have been caused by the accidental explosion of a cooking-gas canister but discarded the theory after two of the large canisters were found intact in the ruins of the building, El Colombiano said.

In the telephone interview, the policeman said dynamite was probably used in the attack. There has been little fighting recently near Chigorodo, but the FARC has been encroaching on northwest Colombia's Uraba region, where Chigorodo is located, in recent months.

On May 2, 119 civilians were killed in the Uraba village of Bojaya when FARC rebels fired a mortar into a church where the villagers had been seeking shelter.

[concerned]

Ax,
I agree with most of what you are saying except for that I don't really think LatinAmerica needs any revolution. What LatinAmerica needs is to win the fight over corruption. As long as there is so much corruption among the people there won't be any social programs that work because the money will always end up in the wrong hands. Latin America needs stricter legislation and harsher punishments for infringers, they need to reestablish law and order for things to work.

El Che,
FARC's "reivindications" as you call it are just a facade to justify their illegal enrichment. They are totally contradicting in what the say they stand for and what their actions do. They are extortioning, controlling and terrorizing the same population that they supposedly care so much about. They only want more money and more power, as seen on the ridiculous peace talks, they don't really give a shit of anything else.

Finally I want to add to Guest's article by saying that it has already been proven some hours ago that it was FARC the ones reponsible for the explosion that shook Chigorodo. Just another of the many senseless terrorist attacks by Farc.

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 9:48 pm on June 4, 2002
I agree with most of what you are saying except for that I don't really think LatinAmerica needs any revolution. What LatinAmerica needs is to win the fight over corruption. As long as there is so much corruption among the people there won't be any social programs that work because the money will always end up in the wrong hands. Latin America needs stricter legislation and harsher punishments for infringers, they need to reestablish law and order for things to work.


Finally we agree on something.

Hey did you check out the links I gave you? :);)

[concerned]

Borincano,
It's good that we agree on something :).
I've been looking at the links you gave me and some others. I need some more time to read all this stuff because I've been very busy and I haven't been able to devote all the time I would have liked to it. So I'll get back to you on that one then :)

[Xvall]

Ah, great idea!
The rebels should try 'voting'.. Yes!
That way, if they ever gain any power (Which they won't), the CIA can pull an assasination off, just like they did with Allende!

[concerned]

Drake,
The rebels would never get into power, neither with the arms nor voting. The vast majority of Colombians disagree with them and would never ever vote for them. It has nothing to do with the US or CIA. And stop pulling that Allende crap, that was a long time ago, I can also tell you about much more terrible things the USSR did in that era. Live in the now, the World is different now.

[Nateddi]

From: http://www.zmag.org/content/Colombia/podur...-uribemodel.cfm (http://www.zmag.org/content/Colombia/podur_rozental-uribemodel.cfm)


Creating Desperation and Disempowerment: As a parliamentarian, Uribe put forward Law 50, dismantling labour laws and protections of worker rights; and Law 100, which privatized Social Security the same way Bush dreamed of doing in the US. This is part of the famous 'race to the bottom', and the thing about a race to the bottom is that as Colombia races, everybody has to run to catch up-- including working people from Brazil to North America.

Promoting Paramilitarism and Violence: As governor of Antioquia between 1995 and 1997, Uribe promoted the 'CONVIVIR', an attempt to legalize paramilitarism. Unions were undermined at the time: In 1996 198 unionists were killed in Antioquia. In 1997 210 were killed. At the end of his mandate, he declared Uraba, once an area of great labour militancy by the banana workers, 'pacified'. The 'pacification' had been won by the assassination of 3500 over 3 years. In 1999 he declared his support for generals Rito Alejo del Rio and Fernando Milan, who had been suspended for their links to paramilitaries. His election campaign was based on the 'failure of negotiations' between Pastrana and FARC. (Here, in parentheses, it's worth mentioning that there weren't really negotiations between Pastrana and FARC. Both parties were competing to commit atrocities against innocent people throughout the 'negotiation' process, and while the government certainly won the contest, the FARC gave them a run for their money. Uribe can thank the FARC for his election as much as anyone else.) His promises include a hard line against the guerrilla, a million more armed Colombians, and an external intervention.

Recognizing the Paramilitaries as Negotiating Partners: The latest from Uribe is his proposal to bring the paramilitaries to the negotiating table. This is something these authors have feared and predicted (see our 'The War Foretold') for some time. The process is as follows: first, apply the Bush doctrine of 'no negotiations with terrorists' to the guerrillas, adding the paramilitaries as an afterthought to the terrorist list. Next, reluctantly concede that negotiations might be necessary to bring peace. Apply this principle that negotiations are necessary selectively, so that the paramilitaries become 'terrorists who must be negotiated with' and the guerrilla 'terrorists who must be annihilated'. Otto Reich, who has quite a resume of his own (see Turnipseed's "Reich Reich" http://www.zmag.org/content/LatinAm...rnipseedlam.cfm) approves of this plan. Between bringing them to the table and the fact that over 30% of legislators are now linked to the paramilitaries, it's worth repeating Arundhati Roy's words about India: "And there will not always be spectacular carnage to report on. Fascism is also about the slow, steady infiltration of all the instruments of State power." This, too, is part of the Uribe Model.

Making Nice with Narcotraffickers: In the mayoral office of Medellin in 1982, Uribe and his father were publicly associated with Clan Ochoa of the Medellin cartel. In 1989 he opposed extradition of narcotraffickers.

All in all, what we can expect from Uribe is more of the same-- only worse.


..sounds like a standup guy. :rolleyes:

To learn more about this criminal Western lackey, visit Zmag's Colombian watch area.

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Colombia...colombiatop.htm (http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Colombia/colombiatop.htm)

(Edited by Nateddi at 4:40 am on June 6, 2002)

[Guest]

Wow, I just read this whole thread.


The one thing I wanted to add is that I don't accept that the U.S. goes around bombing people out of altruism. I don't think the U.S. govt controls the U.S., various corporate cabals do. The world is divided up and different sections are handed to different CEOs.

Places like the Balkans and Afghanistan get bombed in order that the American citizen's tax revenues can be dolled out in greater sums to Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeng, Lockheed Martin, etc...

The government officials that the corporations pay for get war time approval benefits, any sticky domestic issues get swept under and we the people get fed a line of bull about why paying 20,000 to drop a bomb on somebody's house is a beneficial thing and we should not argue it lest we 'provide comfort to the 'terrorists'' (man I swear if I have to hear that line one more fucking time...)

H.Ross Perot came bought lots of airtime to explain in plain English to the people what was hapenning with our national debt. He explained it so well in fact that for once our people actually demanded action on something and we at least balanced the budget for a minute. The only way the war mongers can get their slices of pie back is have the need to bomb people with some frequency.

[concerned]

Nateddi,

This is probably the most bullshit article I have ever read. It is incredible to the lengths they go to to manipulate the facts.

I am not going to defend Uribe in what economics respects, because I have my doubts too about how he is going to run the economy. But all other arguments I find laughable.

Convivir was not an attempt to legalize paramilitarism. It was an attempt to provide peasants the means to defend themselves from the continued attacks, robberies, extortions and abuses by the guerrillas. Unionists are offen tied with the guerrillas, and guerrillas members are often unionists. Anyway Convivir never killed or attacked anyone if they weren't attacked first. It was a self-defense mechanism for peasants, not an anti-guerrilla militia. They didn't go looking for guerrilla, they waited until they hear of a guerrilla attack and went to fight and repel it.

And I don't believe for a second the figures that they show of "innocent" people killed during this time. And even if they were true, which they are not, you would have to compare them with the figures of innocent people dead before the Convivir. Before the Convivir the situation was WAY worse, there was total impunity and massacres of peasant occured often. Convivir was created for a reason, not precisely because Antioquia was a peaceful province.

And if you look at the election results, Uribe had more than 70% of total votes in Antioquia, because people of the region do realize that the Convivir helped alleviate Antioquias violence problem.

And just tell me 1 reason why the paramilitaries should not be in the negotiating table if the guerrillas are. What Uribe said was that if there was ever going to be a peace negotiation in Colombia it would have to involve ALL parties in the conflict, which includes the paramilitaries, and which makes PERFECT sense. The guerrillas are NOT, by any means, any better than the paramilitaries, so they shouldn't be treated preferentially.

And if we are trying to determine who is more terrorists the guerrillas or the paramilitaries, that would have to be the guerrillas. The paramilitaries don't use terrorist attacks against civilians as it is quite common with the guerrillas.

An about Uribe's association with the Ochoa clan, this theory has been discarded in Colombia long time ago. Uribe's father and the Ochoas shared a common passion for horses. This is all the realtionship there was between the two, and it was a long time ago when the Ochoas were not even known for drug trafficking. In a country like Colombia with so many drug dealers it is sometimes hard to know who is the business or not, but that doesn't mean that anyone that Ochoa talked to is automatically involved in the business as well. I challenge you to find one proof, any proof of that statement.

And yes, probably the only accurate thing that the article says is that they military expense is going to increase significantly. It has to, the guerrillas have been gaining power under the fake peace process in which they pulled everyone's leg. The guerrillas earn more than US 2 million daily and have huge savings accounts in Switzerland. If there is not a huge military investment by the government as well it would be the same as declaring the war lost and handling the country to the guerrillas so they can abuse freely to their hearts content.