So what are your thoughts about the once existing Sendero Luminoso movement?

[BIG BROTHER]

So, in the tread of "peru cries foul as venezuela exports free healthcare across regiong" I had a pretty interesting discusion with drosera999 and comrade Alastair, where we were discussing about the movement of Sendero Luminoso that once led an armed struggle in Peru.

And even though I still see Presidente Gonzalo and the cult personality around him as disgusting, I also saw thanks to drosera's video

http://www.revmedia.net/tpsp.html

How the perubian peasants and indians did improve their life under Sendero's rule.

So I was wondering if anybody can tell me anything else about the achivements and shortcomings of Sendero Luminoso.

[black magick hustla]

Murder-gangs started by a bunch of university adventurists looking for a thrill. There is nothing in them except good old partisan oriented politics, with all its murders and sectarian violence. But then again, you get a bunch of cats raising pistols, shouting slogans about "people's war", and its going to be sure that you will get some bored western kids to masturbate. They were never a working class movement, because they had almost absolutely no support with the urban working class. Then again, working class movements don't surge out of guerrillas, they never had and they never will.

Also, straight from the RCP:

"The Commission also highlights the 1983 incident at Lucanamarca in an attempt to attack the revolution. In this case, revolutionary masses who had been victimized by disappearances and torture at the hands of government forces took retaliation against the village of Lucanamarca. The Commission acknowledges that reactionaries in this village had carried out assassinations of revolutionaries and participated in government-led atrocities. The revolutionary masses reportedly killed almost all the villagers of Lucanamarca in revenge. In a 1988 interview, PCP Chairman Gonzalo said that the PCP summed up the "excesses" that occurred in Lucanamarca. He explained that this attack on Lucanamarca happened at time when the revolutionary masses needed to strike back some way at the extremely brutal atrocities they were facing at the hands of government forces. But instead of taking this context into account, the Commission tries to argue that Lucanamarca is typical of the People's War."


LOL "excesses carried because the revolutionary masses had to strike back", and sure if by the revolutionary masses he meant Sendero Luminoso gangsters, they DID strike back. They sure showed them when they decimated a village, including hacking into pieces children. :rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

In the face of reactionary military actions... we responded with a devastating action: Lucanamarca. Neither they nor we have forgotten it, to be sure, because they got an answer that they didn't imagine possible. More than 80 were annihilated, that is the truth. And we say openly that there were excesses, as was analyzed in 1983. But everything in life has two aspects. Our task was to deal a devastating blow in order to put them in check, to make them understand that it was not going to be so easy. On some occasions, like that one, it was the Central Leadership itself that planned the action and gave instructions. That's how it was. In that case, the principal thing is that we dealt them a devastating blow, and we checked them and they understood that they were dealing with a different kind of people's fighters, that we weren't the same as those they had fought before. This is what they understood. The excesses are the negative aspect... If we were to give the masses a lot of restrictions, requirements and prohibitions, it would mean that deep down we didn't want the waters to overflow. And what we needed was for the waters to overflow, to let the flood rage, because we know that when a river floods its banks it causes devastation, but then it returns to its riverbed.... [T]he main point was to make them understand that we were a hard nut to crack, and that we were ready for anything, anything.

Interview with Chairman Gonzalo (http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/docs_en/interv.htm)

Nonetheless, the Peruvian government was the real enemy in Peru. The vast majority of deaths in Peru were caused by the state, not by revolutionaries. Comrades in the First World should have lent their support to all revolutionary forces in Peru to overthrow the comprador state there. As vicious and thuggish as the PCP was, there is no reason to believe that they would have repeated the horror show that was Democratic Kampuchea.

[black magick hustla]

Interview with Chairman Gonzalo (http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/docs_en/interv.htm)

Nonetheless, the Peruvian government was the real enemy in Peru. The vast majority of deaths in Peru were caused by the state, not by revolutionaries. Comrades in the First World should have lent their support to all revolutionary forces in Peru to overthrow the comprador state there. As vicious and thuggish as the PCP was, there is no reason to believe that they would have repeated the horror show that was Democratic Kampuchea.

This is nonsense. Why should we support a side that clearly isn't revolutionary. Again, a bunch of university dropouts and a philosophy professor, waving machetes and hacking children into pieces, has nothing to do with communism. There are many enemies of communists and workers, and just because two teams, in the bourgeois political sphere, are shooting each other to death doesn't means we have to take a side.

[BIG BROTHER]

would have agreed to support them in order to overthrow the burgoise and then later overthrow Gonzalo?

[Dros]

Firstly, there is substance to the criticism that they are too religious around their leader Gonzalo. This has always been a problem with Sendero Luminoso and that is something that has been discussed within and outside various Maoist parties. However, in terms of what they did for the masses of people, when controlling at it's height two thirds of the country, in terms of building socialism, it is appearent that they are an overwhelmingly possitive force. They liberated thousands of peasents by casting off the parasitic land-lord class and building the foundations of socialist economies in these regions. In fact, had it not been for the arrest of large portions of Sendero Luminoso's leadership, they would have seized state power at that time.

Also, they are still very much around although they have been substantially weakened and currently have a membership of only 300 cadre.



Murder-gangs started by a bunch of university adventurists looking for a thrill. There is nothing in them except good old partisan oriented politics, with all its murders and sectarian violence. But then again, you get a bunch of cats raising pistols, shouting slogans about "people's war", and its going to be sure that you will get some bored western kids to masturbate. They were never a working class movement, because they had almost absolutely no support with the urban working class. Then again, working class movements don't surge out of guerrillas, they never had and they never will.

I don't know why the juvenile and reactionary approach of the so-called "Left Communists" still surprises me, but I did not think that inane bullshit could possibly be taken to this extreme. The fact that they still eat up anti-Communist propaganda like little babies with apple sauce proves that they are either idiotic or reactionary or both. Perhaps if "Comrades" like Marmot were able to learn something from orginizations like Sendero Luminoso, they might get around to having there own revolution some day.


But as they say, "left in appearence, right in essence".

[this is not to be taken as an attack on all left communists, just on those who buy this shit]


Also, straight from the RCP:

"The Commission also highlights the 1983 incident at Lucanamarca in an attempt to attack the revolution. In this case, revolutionary masses who had been victimized by disappearances and torture at the hands of government forces took retaliation against the village of Lucanamarca. The Commission acknowledges that reactionaries in this village had carried out assassinations of revolutionaries and participated in government-led atrocities. The revolutionary masses reportedly killed almost all the villagers of Lucanamarca in revenge. In a 1988 interview, PCP Chairman Gonzalo said that the PCP summed up the "excesses" that occurred in Lucanamarca. He explained that this attack on Lucanamarca happened at time when the revolutionary masses needed to strike back some way at the extremely brutal atrocities they were facing at the hands of government forces. But instead of taking this context into account, the Commission tries to argue that Lucanamarca is typical of the People's War."

For Jose's benefit:

The historical context surrounding this tragic incident is incredibly important. The Peruvian government had been funding subjectively reactionary peasents in the countryside who had been forming anti-Communist death squades to massacre party cadre. These peasents did not where uniforms. The situation got to a point where in a very few isolated incidents, innocent people were accidently killed by PCP cadre because of this situation. It is very sad but, as the article said, PCP Chairman Gonzalo was able to sum up that experience and better the party.

Chegitz:

Comrades in the First World should have lent their support to all revolutionary forces in Peru to overthrow the comprador state there.

They did. Maoists in the first world tried to publicize the struggle and there was a committee formed to support the Peruvian People's War.


As vicious and thuggish as the PCP was

I expected more from you than this bullshit.

[black magick hustla]

I don't know why the juvenile and reactionary approach of the so-called "Left Communists" still surprises me, but I did not think that inane bullshit could possibly be taken to this extreme. The fact that they still eat up anti-Communist propaganda like little babies with apple sauce proves that they are either idiotic or reactionary or both. Perhaps if "Comrades" like Marmot were able to learn something from orginizations like Sendero Luminoso, they might get around to having there own revolution some day.


Ok, tex, what part of my post is "bourgeois propaganda", or a "lie". Senderlo Luminoso were violent gangsters that had absolutely no support with the working class. At some point, it had some popularity between the most miserable sectors of the peasantry, but that has nothing to do with communism. Putting a bullet in the temple of landlords and politicians might be fun and release some emotional catharsis, but again, that by itself, has nothing to do with communism.

The left wing of capital tends to confuse revolutionary activity with military prowess. If "having revolutions", which in your words, means military victories of murderious intelligentsia that have nothing to do with working class struggle, I might as well become a Bonapartist, because Bonaparte was a hell of a strategician. :lol:



But as they say, "left in appearence, right in essence".

Sure Batman.



[this is not to be taken as an attack on all left communists, just on those who buy this shit]

Probably every left communist that is worth something takes my position.






The historical context surrounding this tragic incident is incredibly important. The Peruvian government had been funding subjectively reactionary peasents in the countryside who had been forming anti-Communist death squades to massacre party cadre. These peasents did not where uniforms. The situation got to a point where in a very few isolated incidents, innocent people were accidently killed by PCP cadre because of this situation. It is very sad but, as the article said, PCP Chairman Gonzalo was able to sum up that experience and better the party.


Petty criminals and gangsters tend to do what the PCP did. In their extremely pathetic, reduced view of the world, they see everything in terms of my gang against the other gang, and therefore, everything counts, no matter how vicious and brutal are the means, when hurting the other gang. How the hell do you "accidentally" kill children and babies btw. I am sure those PCP murderers were thinking "I am certain those children and babies were part of the reactionary rondas that murdered my comrades". :lol:

[black magick hustla]

Also I love how you dismiss the decimation of a village just as a mere "isolated incident". You are fucking insane.

[More Fire for the People]

Latin American political activity raised to a new level. Infusion of the workers, intellectuals, peasants, and Indians into a single body politic of revolutionary, workerist anti-capitalism.

[black magick hustla]

Latin American political activity raised to a new level. Infusion of the workers, intellectuals, peasants, and Indians into a single body politic of revolutionary, workerist anti-capitalism.

Lots of pretty words, unfortunately the Sendero Luminoso had no working class support.

[BIG BROTHER]

A problem that I would say influenced greatly against Sendero Luminoso was the "rondas" or groups of armed peasants with support of the goverment. So in order for Sendero to lets say attack a small town they would have to attack peasants themselves.

In a way it was pretty smart of the peruvian goverment to do this. If it had been the always the army that sendero fought maybe they would have gathered more support.

Pretty complicated if you ask me.

[Luís Henrique]

would have agreed to support them in order to overthrow the burgoise and then later overthrow Gonzalo?

No, because they would never have overthrown the bourgeoisie. They never had a strategy that could lead to that.

The Sendero Luminoso had nothing to do with communism or the working class.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

A problem that I would say influenced greatly against Sendero Luminoso was the "rondas" or groups of armed peasants with support of the goverment. So in order for Sendero to lets say attack a small town they would have to attack peasants themselves.

In a way it was pretty smart of the peruvian goverment to do this. If it had been the always the army that sendero fought maybe they would have gathered more support.

The main reason that the Peruvian criminal State was able to organise rondas against the Sendero Luminoso was that the bulk of the peasantry saw the Sendero as a greater evil, compared to the Peruvian State.

Luís Henrique

[Dros]

Ok, tex, what part of my post is "bourgeois propaganda", or a "lie". Senderlo Luminoso were violent gangsters that had absolutely no support with the working class. At some point, it had some popularity between the most miserable sectors of the peasantry, but that has nothing to do with communism. Putting a bullet in the temple of landlords and politicians might be fun and release some emotional catharsis, but again, that by itself, has nothing to do with communism.

I was saying that your position is based on bourgeois propaganda. If you had made even the most cursory investigation, you would know how silly you sound.


If "having revolutions", which in your words, means military victories of murderious intelligentsia that have nothing to do with working class struggle, I might as well become a Bonapartist, because Bonaparte was a hell of a strategician.

Did that sentence make sence to anyone else.

I'm quite sure that those aren't my own words because "murderious" is not a worded.

That aside, if this bit about the intelligentsia is some idiotic attempt to attack Maoism, you've yet again betrayed you lack of even a basic understanding of the Chinese revolution.


Petty criminals and gangsters tend to do what the PCP did. In their extremely pathetic, reduced view of the world, they see everything in terms of my gang against the other gang, and therefore, everything counts, no matter how vicious and brutal are the means, when hurting the other gang.

Right. And can you show me any PCP statements that reflect that view?


How the hell do you "accidentally" kill children and babies btw. I am sure those PCP murderers were thinking "I am certain those children and babies were part of the reactionary rondas that murdered my comrades". :lol:

Do you know anything about war? Maybe they thought they were being attacked by rondas and accidently opened fire on something and stray bullets hit them. Maybe they were so freaked out during the war that they got PTSD and flipped out. Maybe there was someone who was a bad apple. This happened in only one or two occasions and was at no time, ever, a policy of the PCP.

That's why it's an isolated incident.

[Dros]

The main reason that the Peruvian criminal State was able to organise rondas against the Sendero Luminoso was that the bulk of the peasantry saw the Sendero as a greater evil, compared to the Peruvian State.

Luís Henrique

do you have any evidence for this or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass?

[black magick hustla]

I was saying that your position is based on bourgeois propaganda. If you had made even the most cursory investigation, you would know how silly you sound.

Again, you are not saying why it is "bourgeois propaganda", you are just repeating the same boring marxist slurs.




I'm quite sure that those aren't my own words because "murderious" is not a worded.

Now this is silly, and ironic at the same time. "is not a worded"?




That aside, if this bit about the intelligentsia is some idiotic attempt to attack Maoism, you've yet again betrayed you lack of even a basic understanding of the Chinese revolution.

I am not talking about the Chinese Revolution. It is well known that Sendero Luminoso started by philosophy professor and university dropouts - hence the "intelligentsia".




Right. And can you show me any PCP statements that reflect that view?


Obviously they are not going to say they are a criminal gang, duh. The fact is that the Lucamara massacre was your typical criminal response to another attack. They didn't go for the state, they decimiated an entire village. Similarly to how mafias sometimes kill each others' family as retaliation, to show them that they are ready to do "anything".


Do you know anything about war? Maybe they thought they were being attacked by rondas and accidently opened fire on something and stray bullets hit them. Maybe they were so freaked out during the war that they got PTSD and flipped out. Maybe there was someone who was a bad apple. This happened in only one or two occasions and was at no time, ever, a policy of the PCP.

This wasn't your typical army raid, or "bombing" where stray bullets and bombs are possible. They where just a bunch of gangsters with machetes and hand guns, confronting an unarmed population. It is incredibly difficult to just hack into pieces pregnant women, children, and babies just "by error". And again, decimating an entire village cannot be dismissed as an "isolated insidennt".

[Luís Henrique]

do you have any evidence for this or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass?

For what reason would Peruvian peasants cooperate with the Peruvian State - long known for its brutality and indifference towards the peasantry, particularly the peasantry of Native descent - against their liberators?

The facts are, SL imposing their notion of "justice" on the peasantry, including summary executions after mock trials and the utter disrespect for peasant culture and religious superstitions, caused the peasants to start reacting against the SL.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Plus, of course, the murder of proletarian union leaders such as Tomás Miranda or Seferino Requis. Miranda was murdered during a miners march, by a SL henchman named Florentino Cecones; Requis was killed by a commando of eight senderistas during a workers meeting. They made him lie face down on the floor, told the assembly that he was a "class traitor" and shot him.

Petty criminals? much worse than that.

Luís Henrique

[Dros]

For what reason would Peruvian peasants cooperate with the Peruvian State - long known for its brutality and indifference towards the peasantry, particularly the peasantry of Native descent - against their liberators?

There are subjectively reactionary sections of every class in all capitalist systems.


The facts are, SL imposing their notion of "justice" on the peasantry, including summary executions after mock trials and the utter disrespect for peasant culture and religious superstitions, caused the peasants to start reacting against the SL.

The fact that they were able to fight the Peruvian army to a standstill for quite a few years even though the Peruvian military was backed by the US and the fact that they were able to gain control and build socialism in the majority of the country shows that they had a large amount of public support. Unless of course, rowdy mafious students make up a large segment of the Peruvian population. Funny. I never saw any frat houses in Lima...


Again, you are not saying why it is "bourgeois propaganda", you are just repeating the same boring marxist slurs.

Your opinion is fundementally grounded in what the bourgeois media chose to emphasize about the movement. They talked about two things: the isolated excesses and there rediculous allegations of drug smuggling.


Now this is silly, and ironic at the same time. "is not a worded"?

Yes. I was being ironic.;):lol:

bad joke:D


I am not talking about the Chinese Revolution. It is well known that Sendero Luminoso started by philosophy professor and university dropouts - hence the "intelligentsia".

Okay. I get it now. I thought you were talking in a back-handed manner about the GPCR.

Anyway, what is this argument exactly? Gonzalo was a revolutionary communist. Many revolutionary communists are from the Intelligentsia. Is your argument the old "he's not a worker so he can't lead the revolution" argument?


Obviously they are not going to say they are a criminal gang, duh

You said this:


Petty criminals and gangsters tend to do what the PCP did. In their extremely pathetic, reduced view of the world, they see everything in terms of my gang against the other gang, and therefore, everything counts, no matter how vicious and brutal are the means, when hurting the other gang.

Now, surely such an attitude would come across in their papers and material? Can you provide some evidence?


The fact is that the Lucamara massacre was your typical criminal response to another attack. They didn't go for the state, they decimiated an entire village. Similarly to how mafias sometimes kill each others' family as retaliation, to show them that they are ready to do "anything

Firstly, you are grossly overstating the massacre.

And again, you haven't answered my argument from my previous post.


And again, decimating an entire village cannot be dismissed as an "isolated insidennt".

It was hardly dismissed. It was acknowledged to be a tragic mistake by a certain group of cadre. It was never the party's policy and it was summed up and learned from.

And it was still an isolate incident. Please explain why it wasn't.

[chegitz guevara]

Chegitz:

They did. Maoists in the first world tried to publicize the struggle and there was a committee formed to support the Peruvian People's War.

Sectarianism got in the way and the rest of the left did not follow.


I expected more from you than this bullshit.

While I do try to be non-sectarian, the "incident" at Lacanamarca was rather beyond the pale. While the RCP tries to explain it away, the interview with Chairman Gonzalo seems to point in the other direction, that the atrocity was deliberate and planned. Furthermore, the PCP had a history of targeting other leftists in Peru, instead of merely combating the settler-state. The PCP ought to have coordinated with the Tupac Amarus rather than fight them. They oughtn't have targeted urban communists and labor leaders. The Senderos engaged in a pattern of violence against those who were not the state. What little I have read about Mao does not lead me to believe he would have approved, but on the contrary, the comrades who carried out such attacks would have been tried and probably executed.

[BIG BROTHER]

Sectarianism got in the way and the rest of the left did not follow.



While I do try to be non-sectarian, the "incident" at Lacanamarca was rather beyond the pale. While the RCP tries to explain it away, the interview with Chairman Gonzalo seems to point in the other direction, that the atrocity was deliberate and planned. Furthermore, the PCP had a history of targeting other leftists in Peru, instead of merely combating the settler-state. The PCP ought to have coordinated with the Tupac Amarus rather than fight them. They oughtn't have targeted urban communists and labor leaders. The Senderos engaged in a pattern of violence against those who were not the state. What little I have read about Mao does not lead me to believe he would have approved, but on the contrary, the comrades who carried out such attacks would have been tried and probably executed.

Yeah, if they would have allied with the Tupac movement, union and labor leaders Sendero would have gotten more support perhaps the support necesary to take the cities.

[Luís Henrique]

Yeah, if they would have allied with the Tupac movement, union and labor leaders Sendero would have gotten more support perhaps the support necesary to take the cities.

Yes, and if they were not the Shining Path they might have done that.

Fighting against the rest of the left was a huge part of their activity. Not theoretical fight, but fighting by criminal means - pure and simple murder of those who didn't agree with them. They practically destroyed the Peruvian unionist movement.

Luís Henrique

[BIG BROTHER]

Yes, and if they were not the Shining Path they might have done that.

Fighting against the rest of the left was a huge part of their activity. Not theoretical fight, but fighting by criminal means - pure and simple murder of those who didn't agree with them. They practically destroyed the Peruvian unionist movement.

Luís Henrique

That's something disgraful, but could you provide some links to back your claim? plz

Also by the way what do you know about the Tupac movement? I don't know anything about them(Besides that they were an armed group).

[Luís Henrique]

That's something disgraful, but could you provide some links to back your claim? plz

The murder of María Elena Moyano, MAS activist, is not a secret:

http://www.peacecorpswriters.org/pages/2000/0011/011rvautomoy.html

nor has it been even denied by the Shining Path:

http://www.csrp.org/rw/rw669.htm


Also by the way what do you know about the Tupac movement? I don't know anything about them(Besides that they were an armed group).

For starters, it was another target for Shining Path's blind violence.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

A quite complete recollection of the facts, in the views of the Peruvian State (post-dirty war) can be found here:

http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/peru/libros/cv/

Material from the Shining Path itself:

http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/

Luís Henrique

[BIG BROTHER]

ok I'll check them out. thanks.

[Luís Henrique]

ok I'll check them out. thanks.

Here, a critique of the unwillingness of the left to take logical conclusions from Shining Path's actions (in Castillian):

http://www.nosotrosperu.net/edi/n2/13.htm

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

Who the hell calls Spanish "Castillan". Damn you people. Español no Castellano!

[Faux Real]

Who the hell calls Spanish "Castillan". Damn you people. Español no Castelalano!Calling it Español is no better; I like to call it conquistador language.

[Luís Henrique]

Who the hell calls Spanish "Castillan". Damn you people. Español no Castellano!

Mi abuela.

Hay por lo menos cuatro lenguas "españolas" - castellano, catalán, gallego y bazco. No veo porque una de ellas tendria derecho a ser llamada "español".

But this thread is about the Shining Path, not about what is the politically correct name of Cervantes' language...

Luís Henrique