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Organic Revolution
28th March 2008, 01:20
Listen, Marxist!

by Murray Bookchin

All the old crap of the thirties is coming back again--the shit about the "class line," the "role of the working class," the "trained cadres," the "vanguard party," and the "proletarian dictatorship." It's all back again, and in a more vulgarized form than ever. The Progressive Labor Party is not the only example, it is merely the worst. One smells the same shit in various offshoots of SDS, and in the Marxist and Socialist clubs on campuses, not to speak of the Trotskyist groups, the International Socialist Clubs and the Youth Against War and Fascism.
In the thirties, at least it was understandable. The United States was paralyzed by a chronic economic crisis, the deepest and the longest in its history. The only living forces that seemed to be battering at the walls of capitalism were the great organizing drives of the CIO, with their dramatic sitdown strikes, their radical militancy, and their bloody clashed with the police. The political atmosphere through the entire world was charged by the electricity of the Spanish Civil War, the last of the classical worker's revolutions, when every radical sect in the American left could identify with its own militia columns in Madrid and Barcelona. That was thirty years ago. It was a time when anyone who cried out "Make love, not war" would have been regarded as a freak; the cry then was "Make jobs, not war"--the cry of an age burdened by scarcity, when the achievement of socialism entailed "sacrifices" and a "transition period" to an economy of material abundance. To an eighteen-year old kid in 1937 the very concept of cybernation would have seemed like the wildest science fiction, a fantasy comparable to visions of space travel. That eighteen-year-old kid has now reach fifty years of age, and his roots are planted in an era so remote as to differ qualitatively from the realities of the present period in the United States. Capitalism itself has changed since then, taking on increasingly statified forms that could be anticipated only dimly thirty years ago. And now we are being asked to go back to the "class line," the "strategies," the "cadres" and the organizational forms of that distant period in almost blatant disregard of the new issues and possibilities that have emerged.
When the hell are we finally going to create a movement that looks to the future instead of the past? When will we begin to learn from what is being born instead of what is dying? Marx, to his lasting credit, tried to do that in his own day; he tried to evoke a futuristic spirit in the revolutionary movement of the 1840's and 1850's. "The tradition of all the dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living," he wrong in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte. "And when they seem to be engaged in revolutionizing themselves and things, in creating something entirely new, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service and borrow from them names, battle slogans and costumes in order to present the new scene of world history in this time-honored disguise and borrowed language. Thus Luther donned the mask of the Apostle Paul, the revolution of 1789 to 1814 draped itself alternately as the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, and the revolution of 1848 knew nothing better than to parody, in turn, 1789 and the tradition of 1793 to 1795....The social revolution of the nineteenth century cannot draw its poetry from the past, but only from the future. It cannot begin with itself before it has stripped off all superstition in regard to the past....In order to arrive at its content, the revolution of the nineteenth century must let the dead bury their dead. There the phrase went beyond the content, here the content goes beyond the phrase."
Is the problem any different today, as we approach the twenty-first century? Once again the dead are walking in our midst--ironically, draped in the name of Marx, the man who tried to bury the dead of the nineteenth century. So the revolution of our own day can do nothing better than parody, in turn, the October Revolution of 1917 and the civil war of 1918-1920, with its "class line," its Bolshevik Party, its "proletarian dictatorship," its puritanical morality, and even its slogan, "soviet power." The complete, all-sided revolution of our own day that can finally resolve the historic "social question," born of scarcity, domination and hierarchy, follows the tradition of the partial, the incomplete, the one-sided revolutions of the past, which merely changed the form of the "social question," replacing one system of domination and hierarchy by another. At a time when bourgeois society itself is in the process of disintegrating all the social classes that once gave it stability, we hear the hollow demands for a "class line." At a time when all the political institutions of hierarchical society are entering a period of profound decay, we hear the hollow demands for a "political party" and a "worker's state." At a time when hierarchy as such is being brought into question, we hear the hollow demands for "cadres," "vanguards" and "leaders." At a time when centralization and the state have been brought to the most explosive point of historical negativity, we hear the hollow demands for a "centralized movement" and a "proletarian dictatorship."
This pursuit of security in the past, this attempt to find a haven in a fixed dogma and an organizational hierarchy as substitutes for creative thought and praxis is bitter evidence of how little many revolutionaries are capable of "revolutionizing themselves and things," much less of revolutionizing society as a whole. The deep-rooted conservatism of the PLP1 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#1) "revolutionaries" is almost painfully evident; the authoritarian leader and hierarchy replace the patriarch and the school bureaucracy; the discipline of the Movement replaces the discipline of bourgeois society; the authoritarian code of political obedience replaces the state; the credo of "proletarian morality" replaces the mores of puritanism and the work ethic. The old substance of exploitative society reappears in new forms, draped in a red flag, decorated by portraits of Mao (or Castro or Che) and adorned with the little "Red Book" and other sacred litanies.
The majority of the people who remain in the PLP today deserve it. If they can live with a movement that cynically dubs its own slogans into photographs of DRUM pickets;2 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#2) if they can read a magazine that asks whether Marcuse is a "copout or cop"; if they can accept a "discipline" that reduces them to poker-faced, programmed automata; if they can use the most disgusting techniques (techniques borrowed from the cesspool of bourgeois business operations and parliamentarianism) to manipulate other organizations; if they can parasitize virtually every action and situation merely to promote the growth of their party--even if this means defeat for the action itself--then they are beneath contempt. For these people to all themselves reds and describe attacks upon them as redbaiting is a form of McCarthyism in reverse. To rephrase Trotsky's juicy description of Stalinism, they are the syphilis of the radical youth movement today. And for syphilis there is only one treatment--an antibiotic, not an argument.
Our concern here is with those honest revolutionaries who have turned to Marxism, Leninism or Trotskyism because they earnestly seek a coherent social outlook and an effective strategy of revolution. We are also concerned with those who are awed by the theoretical repertory of Marxist ideology and are disposed to flirt with it in the absence of more systematic alternatives. To these people we address ourselves as brothers and sisters and ask for a serious discussion and a comprehensive re-evaluation. We believe that Marxism has ceased to be applicable to our time not because it is too visionary or revolutionary, but because it is not visionary or revolutionary enough. We believe it was born of an era of scarcity and presented as a brilliant critique of that era, specifically of industrial capitalism, and that a new era is in birth which Marxism does not adequately encompass and whose outlines it only partially and onesidedly anticipated. We argue that the problem is not to "abandon" Marxism, or to "annul" it, but to transcend it dialectically, just as Marx transcended Hegelian philosophy, Ricardian economics, and Blanquist tactics and modes of organization. We shall argue that in a more advanced stage of capitalism than Marx dealt with a century ago, and in a more advanced stage of technological development than Marx could have clearly anticipated, a new critique is necessary, which in turn yields new modes of struggle, or organization, of propaganda and of lifestyle. Call these new modes whatever you wish. We have chosen to call this new approach post-scarcity anarchism, for a number of compelling reasons which will become evident in the pages that follow.
THE HISTORICAL LIMITS OF MARXISM

The idea that a man whose greatest theoretical contributions were made between 1840 and 1880 could "foresee" the entire dialectic of capitalism is, on the face of it, utterly preposterous. If we can still learn much from Marx's insights, we can learn even more from the unavoidable errors of a man who was limited by an era of material scarcity and a technology that barely involved the use of electric power. We can learn how different our own era is from that of all past history, how qualitatively new are the potentialities that confront us, how unique are the issues, analyses and praxis that stand before us if we are to make a revolution and not another historical abortion.
The problem is not that Marxism is a "method" which must be reapplied to "new situations" or that "neo-Marxism" has to be developed to overcome the limitations of "classical Marxism." The attempt to rescue the Marxism pedigree by emphasizing the method over the system or by adding "neo" to a sacred word is sheer mystification if all the practical conclusions of the system flatly contradict these efforts.3 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#3) Yet this is precisely the state of affairs in Marxian exegesis today. Marxists lean on the fact that the system provides a brilliant interpretation of the past while willfully ignoring its utterly misleading features in dealing with the present and future. They cite the coherence that historical materialism and the class analysis give to the interpretation of history, the economic insights of Capital provides into the development of industrial capitalism, and the brilliance of Marx's analysis of earlier revolutions and the tactical conclusions he established, without once recognizing that qualitatively new problems have arisen which never existed in his day. Is it conceivable that historical problems and methods of class analysis based entirely on unavoidable scarcity can be transplanted into a new era of potential abundance? Is it conceivable that an economic analysis focused primarily on a "freely competitive" system of industrial capitalism can be transferred to a managed system of capitalism, where state and monopolies combine to manipulate economic life? Is it conceivable that a strategic and tactical repertory formulated in a period when steel and coal constituted the basis of industrial technology can be transferred to ana ge based on radically new sources of energy, on electronics, on cybernation?
As a result of this transfer, a theoretical corpus which was liberating a century ago is turned into a straitjacket today. We are asked to focus on the working class as the "agent" of revolutionary change at a time when capitalism visibly antagonizes and produces revolutionaries among virtually all strata of society, particularly the young. We are asked to guide our tactical methods by the vision of a "chronic economic crisis" despite the fact that no such crisis has been in the offing for thirty years,4 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#4) We are asked to accept a "proletarian dictatorship"--a long "transitional period" whose function is not merely the suppression of counter-revolutionaries but above all the development of a technology of abundance--at a time when a technology of abundance is at hand. We are asked to orient our "strategies" and "tactics" around poverty and material immiseration at a time when revolutionary sentiment is being generated by the banality of life under conditions of material abundance. We are asked to establish political parties, centralized organizations, "revolutionary" hierarchies and elites, and a new state at a time when political institutions as such are decaying and when centralizing, elitism and the state are being brought into question on a scale that has never occurred before in the history of hierarchical society.
We are asked, in short, to return to the past, to diminish instead of grow, to force the throbbing reality of our times, with its hopes and promises, into the deadening preconceptions of an outlived age. We are asked to operate with principles that have been transcended not only theoretically but by the very development of society itself. History has not stood still since Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky died, nor has it followed the simplistic direction which was charted out by thinkers--however brilliant--whose minds were still rooted in the nineteenth century or in the opening years of the twentieth. We have seen capitalism itself perform many of the tasks (including the development of a technology of abundance) which were regarded as socialist; we have seen it "nationalize" property, merging the economy with the state wherever necessary. We have seen the working class neutralized as the "agent of revolutionary change," albeit still struggling with a bourgeois framework for more wages, shorter hours and "fringe" benefits. The class struggle in the classical sense has not disappeared; it has suffered a more deadening fate by being co-opted into capitalism. The revolutionary struggle within the advanced capitalist countries has shifted into a historically new terrain: it has become a struggle between a generation of youth that has known no chronic economic crisis the culture, values, and institutions of an older, conservative generation whose perspective on life has been shaped by scarcity, guilt, renunciation, the work ethic and the pursuit of material security. Our enemies are not only the visibly entrenched bourgeoisie and the state apparatus but also an outlook which finds its support among liberals, social democrats, the minions of a corrupt mass media, the "revolutionary" parties of the past, and, painful as it may be to the acolytes of Marxism, the worker dominated by the factory hierarchy, by the industrial routine, and by the work ethic. The point is that the divisions now cut across virtually all the traditional class lines and they raise a spectrum of problems that none of the Marxists, leaning on analogies with scarcity societies, could foresee.
THE MYTH OF THE PROLETARIAT

Let us cast aside all the ideological debris of the past and cut to the theoretical roots of the problem. For our age, Marx's greatest contribution to revolutionary thought is his dialectic of social development. Marx laid bare the great movement from primitive communism through private property to communism to its highest form--a communal society resting on a liberatory technology. In this movement, according to Marx, man passes on from the domination of man by nature, to the domination of man by man, and finally to the domination of nature by man5 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#5) and from social domination of such. Within this larger dialectic, Marx examines the dialectic of capitalism itself--a social system which constitutes the last historical "stage" in the domination of man by man. Here, Marx makes not only profound contributions to contemporary revolutionary thought (particularly in his brilliant analysis of the commodity relationship) but also exhibits those limitations of time and place that play so confining a role in our own time.
The most serious of these limitations emerges from Marx's attempt to explain the transition from capitalism to socialism, from a class society to a classless society. It is vitally important to emphasize that this explanation was reasoned out almost entirely by analogy with the transition of feudalism to capitalism--that is, from one class society to another class society, from one system of property to another. Accordingly, Marx points out that just as the bourgeoisie developed within feudalism as a result of the split between town and country (more precisely, between crafts and agriculture), so the modern proletariat developed within capitalism as a result of the advance of industrial technology. Both classes, we are told, develop social interests of their own--indeed, revolutionary social interests that throw them against the old society in which they were spawned. If the bourgeoisie gained control over economic life long before it overthrew feudal society, the proletariat, in turn, gains its own revolutionary power by the fact that it is "disciplined, united, organized" by the factory system.6 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#6) In both cases, the development of the productive forces becomes incompatible with the traditional system of social relations. "The integument is burst asunder." The old society is replaced by the new.
The critical question we face is this: can we explain the transition from a class society to a classless society by means of the same dialectic that accounts for the transition of one class society to another? This is not a textbook problem that involves the judging of logical abstractions but a very real and concrete issue for our time. There are profound differences between the development of the bourgeoisie under feudalism and the development of the proletariat under capitalism which Marx either failed to anticipate or never faced clearly. The bourgeoisie controlled economic life long before it took state power; it had become the dominant class materially, culturally and ideologically before it asserted its dominance politically. The proletariat does not control economic life. Despite its indispensable role in the industrial process, the industrial working class is not even a majority of the population, and its strategic economic position is being eroded by cybernation and other technological advances.7 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#7) Hence it requires an act of high consciousness for the proletariat to use its power to achieve a social revolution. Until now, the achievement of this consciousness has been blocked by the fact that the factory milieu is one of the most well entrenched arenas of the work ethic, of hierarchical systems of management, of obedience to leaders, and in recent times of production committed to superfluous commodities and armaments. The factory serves not only to "discipline," "unite," and "organize" the workers, but also to do so in a thoroughly bourgeois fashion. In the factory, capitalistic production not only renews the social relations of capitalism with each working day, as Marx observed, it also renews the psyche, values and ideologies of capitalism.
Marx sensed this fact sufficiently to look for reasons more compelling than the mere fact of exploitation or conflicts over wages and hours to propel the proletariat into revolutionary action. In his general theory of capitalist accumulation he tried to delineate the harsh, objective laws that force the proletariat to assume a revolutionary role. Accordingly, he developed his famous theory of immiseration: competition between capitalists compels them to undercut each other's prices, which in turn leads to a continual reduction of wages and the absolute impoverishment of the workers. The proletariat is compelled to revolt because with the process of competition and the centralization of capital there "grows the mass of misery, oppression, slavery, degradation."8 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#8)
But capitalism has not stood still since Marx's day. Writing in the middle years of the nineteenth century, Marx could not be expected to grasp the full consequences of his insights into the centralization of capital and the development of technology. He could not be expected to foresee that capitalism would develop not only from mercantilism into the dominant industrial form of his day--from state-aided trading monopolies into highly competitive industrial units--but further, that with the centralization of capital, capitalism returns to its mercantilist origins on a higher level of development and reassumes the state-aided monopolistic form. The economy tends to merge with the state and capitalism begins to "plan" its development instead of leaving it exclusively to the interplay of competition an market forces. To be sure, the system does not abolish the traditional class struggle, but manages to contain it, using its immense technological resources to assimilate the most strategic sections of the working class.
Thus the full thrust of the immiseration theory is blunted and in the United States the traditional class struggle fails to develop into the class war. It remains entirely within bourgeois dimensions. Marxism, in fact, becomes ideology. It is assimilated by the most advanced forms of state capitalist movement--notably Russia. By an incredible irony of history, Marxian "socialism" turns out to be in large part the very state capitalism that Marx failed to anticipate in the dialectic of capitalism.9 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#9) The proletariat, instead of developing into a revolutionary class within the womb of capitalism, turns out to be an organ within the body of bourgeois society.
The question we must ask at this late date in history is whether a social revolution that seeks to achieve a classless society can emerge from a conflict between traditional classes in a class society, or whether such a social revolution can only emerge from the decomposition of the traditional classes, indeed from the emergence of an entirely new "class" whose very essence is that it is a non-class, a growing stratum of revolutionaries. In trying to answer this question, we can learn more by returning to the broader dialectic which Marx developed for human society as a whole than from the model he borrowed from the passage of feudal into capitalist society. Just as primitive kinship clans began to differentiate into classes, so in our own day there is a tendency for classes to decompose into entirely new subcultures which bear a resemblance to non-capitalist forms of relationships. These are not strictly economic groups anymore; in fact, they reflect the tendency of the social development to transcend the economic categories of scarcity society. They constitute, in effect, a crude, ambiguous cultural preformation of the movement of scarcity into post-scarcity society.
The process of class decomposition must be understood in all its dimensions. The word "process" must be emphasized here: the traditional classes do not disappear, nor for that matter does class struggle. Only a social revolution could remove the prevailing class structure and the conflict engenders. The point is the traditional class struggle ceases to have revolutionary implications; it reveals itself as the physiology of the prevailing society, not as the labor pains of birth. In fact the traditional class struggle stabilizes capitalist society by "correcting" its abuses (in wages, hours, inflation, employment, etc.). The unions in capitalist society constitute themselves into a counter-"monopoly" to the industrial monopolies and are incorporated into the neomercantile statified econnomy as an estate. Within this estate there are lesser or greater conflicts, but taken as a whole the unions strengthen the system and serve to perpetuate it.
To reinforce this class structure by babbling about the "role of the working class," to reinforce the traditional class struggle by imputing a "revolutionary" content to it, to infect the new revolutionary movement of our time with "workeritis" is reactionary to the core. How often do the Marxian doctrinaires have to be reminded that the history of the class struggle is the history of a disease, of the wounds opened by the famous "social question," of man's one-sided development in trying to gain control over nature by dominating his fellow man? If the byproduct of this disease has been technological advance, the main products have been repression, a horrible shedding of human blood and a terrifying distortion of the human psyche.
As the disease approaches its end, as the wound begins to heal in their deepest recesses, the process now unfolds toward wholeness; the revolutionary implications of the traditional class struggle lose their meaning as theoretical constructs and as social reality. The process of decomposition embraces not only the traditional class structure but also the patriarchal family, authoritarian modes of upbringing, the influence of religion, the institutions of the state, and the mores built around toil, renunciation, guilt and repressed sexuality. The process of disintegration in shirt, now becaaomes generalized and cuts across virtually all the traditional classes, values and institutions. It creates entirely new issues, modes of struggle and forms of organization and calls for an entirely new approach to theory and praxis.
What does this mean concretely? Let us contrast two approaches, the Marxian and the revolutionary. The Marxian doctrinaire would have us approach the worker--or better, "enter" the factory--and proselytize him in "preference" to anyone else. The purpose?--to make the worker "class conscious." To cite the most neanderthal examples from the old left, one cuts one's hair, grooms oneself in conventional sports clothing, abandons pot for cigarettes and beer, dances conventionally, affects "rough" mannerisms, and develops a humorless, deadpan and pompous mien.10 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/listenm.html#10)
One becomes, in short, what the worker at his most caricaturized worst: not a "petty bourgeois degenerate," to be sure, but a bourgeois degenerate. One becomes an imitation of the worker insofar as the worker is an imitation of his masters. Beneath the metamorphosis of the student into the "worker" lies a vicious cynicism. One tries to use the discipline inculcated by the factory milieu to discipline the worker to the party milieu. One tries to use the worker's respect for the industrial hierarchy to wed to worker to the party hierarchy. This disgusting process, which if successful could lead only to the substitution of one hierarchy for another, is achieved by pretending to be concerned with the worker's economic day-to-day demands. Even Marxian theory is degraded to accord with this debased image of the worker. (See almost any copy of Challenge--the National Enquirer of the left. Nothing bores the worker more than this kind of literature.) In the end, the worker is shrewd enough to know what he will get better results in the day-to-day class struggle through his union bureaucracy than through a Marxian party bureaucracy. The forties revealed this so dramatically that within a year or two, with hardly any protest from the rank-and-file, unions succeeded in kicking out by the thousands "Marxians" who had done spade-work in the labor movement for more than a decade, even rising to the top leadership of the old CIO internationals.
The worker becomes a revolutionary not by becoming more of a worker but by undoing his "workerness." And in this he is not alone; the same applies to the farmer, the student, the clerk, the soldier, the bureaucrat, the professional--and the Marxist. The worker is no less a "bourgeois" than the farmer, student, clerk, soldier, bureaucrat, professional--and Marxist. His "workerness" is the disease he is suffering from, the social affliction telescoped to individual dimensions. Lenin understood this in What Is to Be Done? but he smuggled in the old hierarchy under a red flag and some revolutionary verbiage. The worker begins to become a revolutionary when he undoes his "workerness,"

MarxSchmarx
28th March 2008, 06:33
I read this essay a few years back, and wondered, has any Marxist ever read it and responded to it?

Or was its readership almost entirely anarchists who nodded their heads as they read along?

Organic Revolution
28th March 2008, 08:01
I read this essay a few years back, and wondered, has any Marxist ever read it and responded to it?

Or was its readership almost entirely anarchists who nodded their heads as they read along?

Thats what I'm trying to do, see what they say. Apparently nothing, because it all rings true.

Devrim
28th March 2008, 09:09
ll the old crap of the thirties is coming back again--the shit about the "class line," the "role of the working class,"


the revolutionary implications of the traditional class struggle lose their meaning as theoretical constructs and as social reality. The process of decomposition embraces not only the traditional class structure but also the patriarchal family, authoritarian modes of upbringing, the influence of religion, the institutions of the state, and the mores built around toil, renunciation, guilt and repressed sexuality. The process of disintegration in shirt, now becaaomes generalized and cuts across virtually all the traditional classes,

I would imagine that most anarchists would reject it to. It is an immensely reactionary piece, liberalism at its worst.

Fools like Bookchin could get away with writing this sort of nonsense in the early 1960s. By 1969 though with the re-emergence of the working class as a central actor on the world stage, this sort of talk became increasingly divorced from reality.

The reason that Bookchin wrote like this in 1969 is because the class struggle had again risen its ugly head internationally. In rejecting in Bookchin also rejected the possibility of communism.

Devrim

Rosa Lichtenstein
28th March 2008, 10:07
This has been published here many times, and ignored for its irrelevance nearly as often.

black magick hustla
28th March 2008, 10:24
I think some of you people are being unfair with Bookchin.

Bookchin (at least in his latter days) seemed to me somewhat of a traditional anarchist. (Until near his death, when he renounced it). He doesn't seemed as New-Leftish in his later essays. Besides, he was one of the first to oppose that pile of steaming fecal matter that passes as anarchism in America, he was even the one to coin the term "lifestylist".

Joby
28th March 2008, 18:48
I just bought Post-Scarcity Anarchism from Half-price Books.

Cost me like $4. Great deal :D

chimx
28th March 2008, 18:55
Why was this moved to OI?

Organic Revolution
28th March 2008, 20:26
This doesn't belong in OI, I'm moving it back to theory.

Luís Henrique
28th March 2008, 20:34
Why was this moved to OI?

Anti-working class, anti-class struggle drivel.


The worker is no less a "bourgeois" than the farmer, student, clerk, soldier, bureaucrat, professional--and Marxist.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
28th March 2008, 20:36
This doesn't belong in OI, I'm moving it back to theory.

As long as I am the Theory forum mod, it is going to be moved out of it.

Back to OI, as deserved.

Luís Henrique

Bud Struggle
28th March 2008, 20:54
As long as I am the Theory forum mod, it is going to be moved out of it.

Back to OI, as deserved.

Luís Henrique


GREAT! Commie fight. :laugh:

http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/images/2007/07/06/img_4440.jpg

Luís Henrique
28th March 2008, 21:43
GREAT! Commie fight.

Yeah, we do disagree on a lot of things. Why should that surprise you?

Luís Henrique

Joby
28th March 2008, 22:08
http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/images/2007/07/06/img_4440.jpg


Is that a real Commie Propoganda poster?

damn LoL :drool:

Bud Struggle
28th March 2008, 22:59
Is that a real Commie Propoganda poster?

damn LoL :drool:

They wish. :laugh:

Organic Revolution
29th March 2008, 02:54
As long as I am the Theory forum mod, it is going to be moved out of it.

Back to OI, as deserved.

Luís Henrique


If you prefer to be a dogmatic asshole, go ahead. I'll leave it in OI.

Zurdito
29th March 2008, 03:41
If you prefer to be a dogmatic asshole, go ahead.

I'm reminded of a quote by someone who I don't like very much: Richard Dawkins.


It's good to be open-minded, but not to the point that our brains fall out

Even non-marxist workers know they are workers so this traitor is not just trying to critique marxism in order to move along the class struggle in what he sees as a better way, but instead attacking even existing workers struggles.

Also, this first-worldist moron should step outside the US once in a while if he thinks there is no scarcity. for the vast majority of the world's countries, there is pressing scarcity. so in fact one of the central tenets of his "argument" is completely wrong and can be proved so by simply watching the bourgeois news for ten minutes on any given day.

midnight marauder
29th March 2008, 03:48
As long as I am the Theory forum mod, it is going to be moved out of it.

Back to OI, as deserved.

Luís Henrique
You have no right to enforce your ideological agenda through petty misuse of your privileges as a moderator.

There are numerous ideas advocated in Theory, widely accepted among certain leftist tendencies, that I happen to think are forever opposed to genuine communist progress. But I, like you, do not have the authority "send them off to OI" for disagreeing with my ideological line.

You are acting well beyond your boundaries as a mod.

Zurdito
29th March 2008, 04:10
from the forum guidelines on restriction:


Restriction is a measure the membership uses to focus the debate on this site. We are a group of progressive Leftists, but that is all that many of us have in common. We disagree on how the society we envision will work, how best to emancipate the workers and many other issues. We need to debate these things respectfully, amongst ourselves.So we restrict debate about whether we should emancipate the workers at all to the Opposing Ideologies forum.

just sayin...;)

Luís Henrique
29th March 2008, 05:02
You have no right to enforce your ideological agenda through petty misuse of your privileges as a moderator.

There are numerous ideas advocated in Theory, widely accepted among certain leftist tendencies, that I happen to think are forever opposed to genuine communist progress. But I, like you, do not have the authority "send them off to OI" for disagreeing with my ideological line.

You are acting well beyond your boundaries as a mod.

Posts that only serve to provoke sectarian bickering don't belong in theory. I just followed Zurdito's reasoning. But if you have a better place to put this, and the moderator of that forum is OK with it, no problem. Just not in Theory.

If you think I am enforcing an ideological line, you should notice that I have moved a number of provocative threads about anarchism, started by Marxists, out from Theory to other forums.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
29th March 2008, 05:03
They wish. :laugh:

Yes, I wish. It is an excellent satire of the horrendous style known as "socialist realism".

Luís Henrique

chimx
29th March 2008, 05:15
Anti-working class, anti-class struggle drivel.

You may not like it, but it is an well written anarchist critique of Marxism. I would go so far as to say it raises interesting and completely valid points. Marxism's discussion on the transition from class society to classless society has always been weak, opting for vague "withering" adjectives.

Bookchin is simply suggesting that our anti-capitalism needs to be about destroying class, not class supremacy. You can say that is "anti-worker", but it is clearly advocating classless society.

I really can't understand how you would move anarchist theory to OI, but allow real drivel like Deng Xiaoping threads in theory. At the very least it is inconsistent.

Luís Henrique
29th March 2008, 06:04
I really can't understand how you would move anarchist theory to OI, but allow real drivel like Deng Xiaoping threads in theory. At the very least it is inconsistent.

I have no problems with anarchist theory, I have a problem with the attempt to reduce the debate between the two tendencies to a flame fest. I do think that "Listen Marxist" does exactly that.

jacobin1949's thread may be much worse in several levels, but it does not serve such finality.

Luís Henrique

chimx
29th March 2008, 06:09
I don't see how it is exactly a flame fest. Bookchin seems to admire Marx quite a bit, and praises his contributions in his essay. And if it was a flamebait, OI isn't meant to house that kind of material. The trashcan is. ;)

Die Neue Zeit
29th March 2008, 06:21
The proletariat does not control economic life. Despite its indispensable role in the industrial process, the industrial working class is not even a majority of the population, and its strategic economic position is being eroded by cybernation and other technological advances

Organic Revolution has CLEARLY not read this chapter:

Simplification of class relations? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/simplification-class-relations-t73419/index.html)

Since when did the word "proletarian" mean exclusively "industrial worker"? :glare:

Os Cangaceiros
29th March 2008, 06:28
Bookchin is pretty "hit or miss" for me. For every good point he has, he also has one that is pompous hogwash (such as his comment that Emma Goldman was "Nietzchean", in a ridiculous piece about anarchism and "terrorism".)

I didn't really care for this piece, although I did like the phrase "workeritis". :laugh:

Devrim
29th March 2008, 06:55
Also, this first-worldist moron should step outside the US once in a while if he thinks there is no scarcity. for the vast majority of the world's countries, there is pressing scarcity. so in fact one of the central tenets of his "argument" is completely wrong and can be proved so by simply watching the bourgeois news for ten minutes on any given day.

I think that you have got to realise when it was written, 1969. Bookchin wasn't the only leftist to think that we lived in a world without scarcity at the time. Another example would be, Cornelius Castoriadis. Basically, there were some people who believed that capitalism had overcome its internal contradiction. Castoriadis' conclusions from it were much more interesting than Bookchin's, and his group, Socialisme Ou Barbarie (and their UK counterpart, Solidarity) were still very much orientated towards workers' struggles.

Unfortunately for both set of ideas as well as other similar theories, the 1970 then came around the corner, the crisis returned, and kicked their ideological teeth in.


I'm reminded of a quote by someone who I don't like very much: Richard Dawkins.

Really, I quite like him. Why don't you.

Devrim

Organic Revolution
29th March 2008, 07:35
As Chimx said, this isnt anti-worker in the least, but an attempt to be inclusive of people for a liberatory society.

Devrim
29th March 2008, 08:06
As Chimx said, this isnt anti-worker in the least, but an attempt to be inclusive of people for a liberatory society.

It may not be anti-worker in the sense that it is particularly against workers in an abstract sociological way, but from the first sentence you should recognise that it is clearly against any sort of theory that sees class struggle as the motor of change:


All the old crap of the thirties is coming back again--the shit about the "class line," the "role of the working class,"

This is not an attack on 'Marxism', but an attack on all of those who believe that the working class has the central role in the the struggle for socialism. This also includes any anarchist worth her salt.

Devrim

chimx
29th March 2008, 08:24
I disagree. Bookchin is arguing that the significance of Marxism is his thoughts on social development: pre-class society to class society, and class society to post-class society.

He argues that instead of upholding the phantoms of history and following a class line, we acknowledge that we aren't moving from one class paradigm to another class paradigm, such as it was from feudalism to capitalism, but that we tackle with the issues of destroying class. This is meant to be contrasted with the old class line that advocates the class supremacy of workers ala the dictatorship of the proletariat, which Marxists abstractly hope will wither away. He says:


The question we must ask at this late date in history is whether a social revolution that seeks to achieve a classless society can emerge from a conflict between traditional classes in a class society, or whether such a social revolution can only emerge from the decomposition of the traditional classes, indeed from the emergence of an entirely new "class" whose very essence is that it is a non-class, a growing stratum of revolutionaries.

Even a left communist like yourself could probably seem some appeal in his criticism of class struggle as it currently exists:


The process of class decomposition must be understood in all its dimensions. The word "process" must be emphasized here: the traditional classes do not disappear, nor for that matter does class struggle. Only a social revolution could remove the prevailing class structure and the conflict engenders. The point is the traditional class struggle ceases to have revolutionary implications; it reveals itself as the physiology of the prevailing society, not as the labor pains of birth. In fact the traditional class struggle stabilizes capitalist society by "correcting" its abuses (in wages, hours, inflation, employment, etc.). The unions in capitalist society constitute themselves into a counter-"monopoly" to the industrial monopolies and are incorporated into the neomercantile statified econnomy as an estate. Within this estate there are lesser or greater conflicts, but taken as a whole the unions strengthen the system and serve to perpetuate it.

Granted, he certainly comes of hostile in his opening few paragraphs, but what he is trying to hammer home is the necessity of consciously dismantling class rather than work for class domination. Personally I think he is unnecessarily critical of class struggle (of course I think that about aspects of left communist ideology too), but his intents are certainly not "opposing" the ideology of revolutionary leftists. He is very much arguing for turning workers into revolutionaries that want to destroy class society, and destroying the ideological anachronisms within the left.

al8
29th March 2008, 08:25
I read the article. I found it unimpressive. Admittedly some good humor in between (repeating stale revolutinary formulas being the syhpilis of the radical youth + "workeritis":D ) . But the main thing is that this article is so unspecific and relying heavily on unsubstatial steriotypes. It's suggestions are vague. And I'm not exactly sure what the article is specificly saying is detrimental and why.

al8
29th March 2008, 08:36
I posted soon after Chimx's post, and did't see it. Those points of his are relevant and I would have liked him to elaborate on that - expound on that more clearly. Where are the examples f.ex.?

Pawn Power
29th March 2008, 15:01
I would just like to state that Luis does not "own" the Theory forum. He was elected to pay particular attention to that specific forum...this does not grant him any more authority, it is just so each forum is being watched properly.

Why I think the result of the Bookchin's artcile could result in "secraterian" bickering (like it is now), however, this does not necessarily have to be the case and is should not be assumed from reading the piece. It was not posted to flame but as a critique.

Marxism is not beyond critique.

Zurdito
29th March 2008, 15:31
Marxism is not beyond critique.

which is why the Opposing Ideologies section exists in the first place!

seriously some people need to get a sense of perspective: the article argued that the "proletariat" is a myth. The forum rules state that any debate about whether or not workers need emancipating in the first place is restricted to OI. Therefore the debate belongs in OI. Why is it controversial?

It seems some people want this writer to get special treatment because he calls himself an "anarchist" and genuinely wants to create a better world, a post-capitalist world. He may well do. But we must judge people on the objective interests their writing serves, and not on their "intentions", otherwise we could allow anyone to post who simply claims to want what's best for workers deep down.

Zurdito
29th March 2008, 15:36
Really, I quite like him. Why don't you.

Devrim


I have read some of his comments on suicide bombings, and he ignores material causes, instead overemphasising the effects of "brainwashing". This feeds into petty-bourgeois liberal western fears and prejudices about the "irrational" masses IMO.

Also, while I don't disagree with his arguments against the existence of God, I prefer Lenin's view that it's a personal issue: "you believe in paradise in the next life, I don't: now let's work together to create it in this one".

chimx
29th March 2008, 17:35
The forum rules state that any debate about whether or not workers need emancipating in the first place is restricted to OI.

If you could find a quote by Bookchin either in this essay or in ANY of his essays saying that working people do not need to be emancipated from capitalism I will gladly concede.

He isn't arguing this though. Maybe you misread something, as it was difficult to get through without proper paragraph breaks. He is arguing for revolutionizing working peoples to destroy class, or perhaps more accurately transcend class.

This is because he is advocating the Marxist view that capitalism is history's last breath of class production relations, and that we are moving towards a classless society.

Zurdito
29th March 2008, 20:55
If you could find a quote by Bookchin either in this essay or in ANY of his essays saying that working people do not need to be emancipated from capitalism I will gladly concede.

He isn't arguing this though. Maybe you misread something, as it was difficult to get through without proper paragraph breaks.

actually I copied and pasted it and put paragraph breaks in.

he argues for "liberation" int he abstract, but so do other restricted members, such as Sky and maybe even Joby.

What he also does is argue against class struggle and that the proletariat is a myth.

How can a "myth" be emancipated?

chimx
30th March 2008, 01:39
Well if you could provide some quotes I would be happy to try and refute them.

He isn't arguing that the proletariat doesn't exist. He is arguing that revolutionary workers need to transcend being a proletariat. To use his words, "the worker becomes a revolutionary not by becoming more of a worker but by undoing his 'workerness.'"

I strongly believe you are misunderstanding his arguments. There is nothing in this essay that is an opposing ideology.

Zurdito
30th March 2008, 02:49
He isn't arguing that the proletariat doesn't exist. He is arguing that revolutionary workers need to transcend being a proletariat. To use his words, "the worker becomes a revolutionary not by becoming more of a worker but by undoing his 'workerness.'"


What does that mean?

ok, quotes:



The class struggle in the classical sense has not disappeared; it has suffered a more deadening fate by being co-opted into capitalism. The revolutionary struggle within the advanced capitalist countries has shifted into a historically new terrain: it has become a struggle between a generation of youth that has known no chronic economic crisis the culture, values, and institutions of an older, conservative generation whose perspective on life has been shaped by scarcity, guilt, renunciation, the work ethic and the pursuit of material security. Our enemies are not only the visibly entrenched bourgeoisie and the state apparatus but also an outlook which finds its support among liberals, social democrats, the minions of a corrupt mass media, the "revolutionary" parties of the past, and, painful as it may be to the acolytes of Marxism, the worker dominated by the factory hierarchy, by the industrial routine, and by the work ethic. The point is that the divisions now cut across virtually all the traditional class lines and they raise a spectrum of problems that none of the Marxists, leaning on analogies with scarcity societies, could foresee.



he is arguing that the class struggle is not the agent for change in society. he is arguing against class struggle. ok, so he accepts that class "exists". But he doesn't see it as particularly relevant. This makes him not much different to many OIers.

also I can't find the other quote, but he argues that "class struggle is ideology", that the idea of "class struggle" is a bourgeois ideology, just like reformism, which detracts from the real revolution: presumably this revolution of new "values" over old "values".

This is just post-modernism, sorry, it's not class politics, he rejects class politics, he says so himself. Yes, he wants to "liberate the worker" in the sense that anyone who claims to "liberate humanity" will include workers in humanity: likewise, Christians, liberal reformists, Islamic fundamentalists, etc., all claim that workers are maong those that willbe emancipated by their doctrine: many even base themselves on appealing to workers. But the point is that they reject class politics and are therefore not revolutionary. Just like Bookchin.

chimx
30th March 2008, 03:21
Oh come on, that's being disingenuous to his thoughts, comparing him to liberalism and chrisitians. He is arguing from an anarchist communist paradigm. He is simply saying class struggle for class supremacy undermines anarchist and communist goals and reinforces class.

You would be interested to know he actually used to be a Trotskyist, but converted for anarchism's more holistic approach, i guess you could call it. Here is an interview with him back in the 80s that can give you all some perspective on his background and interests. It argues the same thing as this essay, but it is a little bit more clear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd0hxVUIQvk

bloody_capitalist_sham
30th March 2008, 06:12
I disagree with two points of that article. I have read post scarcity anarchy and found it wishy washy more than anything.

First he derides the idea of workers being organised into a party. we all know the awfulness of the communist parties of Stalin and Mao, but they were not workers parties.

The workers need a party to firstly be organised, as organised as the capitalist state you are fighting. revolution and class struggle is complex and hard to win, a party allows the experience or successes and defeats to be understood and then advice given to the class.

the bourgeoisie were able to beat the feudal system because they were richer, and they were better educated. They had universities, where feudal lords had churches, they had engineers and scientists, where feudal lords had alchemists and the clergy.

What do workers have, what do the mass of the people have, that the bourgeoisie do not?? they still have massive wealth, they still have the best places of education, the brightest and smartest, they still control the media and we have none of that but each other and the limited ability not to work for them.

how do, the great mass of people, overturn such a powerful class, such powerful states, such huge resources, such a powerful ideology?

We need to be united and organised across the world in a political party that can use past experience and the current conditions and help us realise our objectives.

Second is of course it has to be along class lines. Our ideology is summed up to one sentence. Whatever is in the best interest of the proletariat, in the short and long term.

Without this, you end up with the apsiration for socialism, communism or anarchism. which means you can harm people, and justify it through ideology. That is no good. each class acts in its interests, if it doesnt or chooses the wrong policy it will be surpassed by another class.

bookchin aspires to create an anarchist society and so poses the question, where does his loyalty lie, with the class he supports, or the ideology he upholds. marxists aspire to create a society which is in the interests of the international proletariat, which we describe as socialism, but dont extrapolate what socialism will look like, we offer no blue prints because that is just potential source of harm and trouble.

Die Neue Zeit
30th March 2008, 06:19
^^^ chimx: No matter the theoretical errors of Trotskyist revisionism, anarchism does NOT have more "holistic" approach. :glare:

chimx
31st March 2008, 03:08
bookchin aspires to create an anarchist society and so poses the question, where does his loyalty lie, with the class he supports, or the ideology he upholds. marxists aspire to create a society which is in the interests of the international proletariat, which we describe as socialism, but dont extrapolate what socialism will look like, we offer no blue prints because that is just potential source of harm and trouble.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply arguing that anarchist theory should not be moved to Opposing Ideologies.


No matter the theoretical errors of Trotskyist revisionism, anarchism does NOT have more "holistic" approach.

it views itself as more holistic because it isn't necessarily class-centric. Marxists view state coercion, patriarchy, ethnic relations, etc. in terms of production relations, whereas anarchists don't necessarily do this and give each area equal attention.

Xiao Banfa
1st April 2008, 12:05
Can you paragraph that? What I read sounded like revolting anarcho liberal rubbish. I'll read the rest if you paragraph that.

Luís Henrique
1st April 2008, 18:37
it views itself as more holistic because it isn't necessarily class-centric. Marxists view state coercion, patriarchy, ethnic relations, etc. in terms of production relations,

Why do people seem to absolutely need to offer such sweeping analysis of Marxism, when they in fact do not understand Marxism at all?


whereas anarchists don't necessarily do this and give each area equal attention.

This is called ecleticism, not holism.

Luís Henrique