Same old dubya

[Anonymous]

I mean whow in the world could they elect a president that has been arrested severel times that is an alcooholic, that has two daughters that the only thing they do is geting drunk, that belongs to an elite petroil family, that has a father that brought war to america, that gives two speeling errors in each four words he says, that knows less about geography tha nan 5 years old boy, etc!! and this is only a small part of the problem, he stole the elections, he is racist, he makes coups to take of others presidents!!!! i mean are the american people dumb or not? if bush is the answer then its a hell of a dumb question!!!

[Guest]

You are an idiot, this is CI

[Xvall]

Once again CI, you prove your idiocy. A leftist give a paragrah long post, and the best thing you can come up with is "You're an idiot." You didn't even bother to adress his issues, are you lazy? Or can you not read the letters on the keyboard? There are people who can help with that, you know!

[Guest]

LOL, ok, that was funny

[bleed3r]

Oh but we didn't elect him... He didn't win until I believe his second or third "Recount"...

[Anonymous]

I know he cheated, but he had a lot of votes dint he? so a lot of americans voted for him!!!

[IzmSchism]

just watched the ol' Dubya in France where he had a meet the press type conference w/ Chirac. Bush came out looking like a frat member pumping good times and budy buddy, couldn't answer a question with an ounce of intelligence, nor could he even answer half the questions without making som delinear comment, or talk about 'well, uh huh, this is hwat happens when you are over 55', ......' or I am jet lagged, can you repeat the entire question' And when it came time to answer the question of the large size of protestors outside, the Dubya's answer was ignorant and completely out of touch with what I like to call reality, la realidad! He is probably the biggest puppet I have seen land into the presidency in my entire life,
Everyone that now bank rolled his election, i.e, petro kings and pharmecutical players are now sitting on the heads of environmental and health commitees???

[Lardlad95]

The reason people voted for Dubya is becuase the Anti-Christ needed supporters...but don't worry I saw the omen they killed the Anti-Christ in the end...I think...or was it the second Omen?

Besides there are lots of conservatives in this country.

[Anonymous]

I dont get it how can the right win in usa? usa is the land of porn, os sex, of drugs etc and the right wins??? who voted? porno-puritans?

[Needssomeconvincing]

Everyone just wait until august when all of america will wake up on morning and think "Jesus I actually voted for Bush, I hope no-one else did or else this country would be really fucked up"
Bush got in because he was bankrolled by huge corporations. And his Dad,who is an american treasure and should be huge upside down in the Smithsonian

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

The smart thing to do would have been to boycott the election and head for the hills.

[Capitalist Imperial]

ACTUALLY, Bush won in the electoral college system fair and square, and could someone posting here please point out what legislation he has passed or what bill he suppoorted that is so bad??? If tyou ask me, he has a lot of charisma, courage, and character. I mean, if you want an idiot for a president, look at bill clinton. Now there was a smooth character. Corrupt, knew nothing about foreign policy, let the US get attacked in africa (embassies), the barracks in saudi arabia, the cole,and he is also a proven liar. Oh, did i mention that he took illegal campaign donations from china, as they stole our nuclear weapons secrets? Bush has more integrity and character in his pinky than our last excuse for a leader did overall. Bush is doing an excellent job, and if someone can tell me what he d/is doing that is so bad besides jumbling a few words, I would like to read it. If most you did not look at him with a prejudiced, biased view, you would concede he is actually pretty well spoken and well thought.

[Capitalist Imperial]

ACTUALLY, Bush won in the electoral college system fair and square, and could someone posting here please point out what legislation he has passed or what bill he suppoorted that is so bad??? If tyou ask me, he has a lot of charisma, courage, and character. I mean, if you want an idiot for a president, look at bill clinton. Now there was a smooth character. Corrupt, knew nothing about foreign policy, let the US get attacked in africa (embassies), the barracks in saudi arabia, the cole,and he is also a proven liar. Oh, did i mention that he took illegal campaign donations from china, as they stole our nuclear weapons secrets? Bush has more integrity and character in his pinky than our last excuse for a leader did overall. Bush is doing an excellent job, and if someone can tell me what he d/is doing that is so bad besides jumbling a few words, I would like to read it. If most you did not look at him with a prejudiced, biased view, you would concede he is actually pretty well spoken and well thought.

[Anarcho]

Bush-Clinton-Reagan... it doesn't matter. If you strip away the very thin trappings of party politics, they are all the same. The only difference is who got caught doing what.

No such thing as a clean politician, dang it.

[Angie]

(same idea of CI's, applied to different president)

Bush:

* Corrupt (Family linked back to the Nazis, did business dealings with Osama Bin Laden and Co.)
* KNOWS nothing about foreign policy (other than what he's probably been briefed on, 15 minutes before a speech, hence the crappiness of each speech)
* Let the US get attacked in AMERICA, of all places (and don't even THINK of telling me he didn't know about it beforehand)
* Let American civilians get murdered by Israeli soldiers (including Journalists AND a young woman with her infant baby)
* Is also a proven liar. (Goes without saying, really.)
* Oh, did i mention that he took illegal campaign donations from Israel, as they WERE GIVEN our nuclear weapons secrets?

The list could go on and on and on.... I'm bored already. Snore.

[IzmSchism]

It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency.

-- George W. Bush, June 14, 2001.
speaking to Sweedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson, unaware that a live television camera was still rolling.

i liked that one, duder is a puppet,

CI you love your stooges.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Angie on 1:53 pm on May 29, 2002
(same idea of CI's, applied to different president)

Bush:

* Corrupt (Family linked back to the Nazis, did business dealings with Osama Bin Laden and Co.)

"Corrupt": Many families can be linked back to the Nazis, that is geneology, it doesn't mean they supported the nazi regime. Ultimately we could all be linked back to some kind of regime. Besides, in the US, at least, you are not held accountable for the mistakes of your relatives.
* KNOWS nothing about foreign policy (other than what he's probably been briefed on, 15 minutes before a speech, hence the crappiness of each speech)

"Doesn't know about Foreign Policy": Mabye not as many as others, no one is perfect, but he is a very quick learner, and considering he knew as much as linton, he is doing 10X the job (war on terror, visited china, summit with putin, visited japan, visit to france), all in just 1 year.
* Let the US get attacked in AMERICA, of all places (and don't even THINK of telling me he didn't know about it beforehand)

"Let the US get attacked": Oh,ok Angie, LOL, you have me there. As a matter of fact, I think he called Osama and gave him the coordinates to the largest US economic epicenter on earth, as well as our military headquarters, as well. (after he finished his call with the aliens, the man who really shot kennedy, the director of the "fake lunar landing, and bigfoot) I think he sent osama the keys to the airplanes, also. Jeez, c'mon,angie, get real. In all seriousness, angie, though I disagree with you politically, I concede you are pretty well thought. Thus, I expect much more from you than one of these infantile conspiracy theories that seem to be par for the course on this board recently. The FBI/CIA got terrorist tips every day, and i mean pre 9/11, and they are usually relatively vague. Did we get some info that makes sense relative to the attacks in retrospect? Yes, but that info could not have predictied what happened, and no one told our government that "On sept 11, 2001, terrorist fanatics will hijack 4 american jumbo jets and fly them kamikaze style into the WTC, Pentagon, and White House", to which our government responded "let them". What would be the benefit of that, angie??? the resulting military action is not big enough to boost our economy, as a matter of fact, it compounded its lagging!!! Lets use some of your critical thinking on this one, angie, not spoon-fed conspiracy theories.
* Let American civilians get murdered by Israeli soldiers (including Journalists AND a young woman with her infant baby)

"let americans get murdered by israelis": I'm sorry, was he there to take the bullets for those people? I must have missed something. The americans that went into a volatile area with known fanatics (especially with a baby) are responsible, not george bush.
* Is also a proven liar. (Goes without saying, really.)

"is a proven liar": Could you be more specific? besides, what leader, politician,or even human being has not told a lie here and there? Please be more specific though (unless you are confusing GW with clinton, now that does go without saying)


* Oh, did i mention that he took illegal campaign donations from Israel, as they WERE GIVEN our nuclear weapons secrets?

"Isreal/Nuclear weapons": Israel does not actually have nukes, like china, and israel is our solid ally, unlike china. and as you said, the US willlingly shared info with israel, it was not stolen from us. Do you see the context here??? I also have not seen proof of bush campaign finance directly from israel.

The list could go on and on and on.... I'm bored already. Snore.

"list could go on and on": probably, but if it continued like this, it would probably further diminish your credibility more than it already has.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from IzmSchism on 2:38 pm on May 29, 2002
It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency.

-- George W. Bush, June 14, 2001.
speaking to Sweedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson, unaware that a live television camera was still rolling.

i liked that one, duder is a puppet,

CI you love your stooges.


he was talking about his opponenets platform creed. Context, izm.

[Ernest Everhard]

Who ever said there is not such thing as a "clean politician" is right, because there is no such thing as a perfect human being. I voted for the other, other, guy, but I will say that Bush won those elections fair and square. And secondly his supporters aren't deluded, ignorant, stupid, blind or evil. Their people just like you, perhaps a little more sane than you, because most of them don't ascribe to your manicheanisms: Geez, bush the anti-christ?

[Angie]

My lord, I cannot believe what I am reading. LOL!

CI turning into a whinging teenager! "Geez, Angie", "Come on, Angie", "Wanna go out for an ice-cream, Angie?", "I love you, Angie!", "Hey Angie, wanna fuck?" Yeah baby, bring it on. I love it when you use my name, come be my *****.

Oh well. At least we no longer need to wonder about what his age is. I place it at about 16. Really, you are very entertaining when you're all upset. And I do suggest that you do some more research into world affairs, both past and present, because your lack of knowledge is embarressing, to say the very least. I suggest you start by befriending a large number of the world's political figures, not just from America, but from all four corners of the planet, from all different political persuasions, racial and ethnic backgrounds, then learn to eek out information from them effectively. Much like I have, and do. Brainwashing is all you could call your knowledge, if you don't.

You're damned right that I'm well thought. A hell of a lot better than you are, actually. I don't sit on multiple degrees for nothing, with two more in the works. You merely chipped the iceberg with that quote. And I couldn't be happier that it's working against you.

CI, you are an immature child who cannot even debate properly. You are a waste of my time, and everyone else's time here. You appear to only be here upon these forums to stir up problems, as you're certainly not assisting the Socialist/Communist way, as is one of the main points of CheLives - in NO WAY have you converted anyone to the Capitalist belief system, who hadn't already been a Capitalist beforehand, and your chances of doing so are so minute that it's not even worth trying. That said, you are a waste of pixels upon this forum. Your presence would be felt and appreciated within a forum of self-righteous Capitalist losers, where they can bow to you as much as you desire, and I do urge you to consider finding them.

I am baffled why someone so anti-Socialist can be mixing with people in any form of society at all, especially one such as this one, where it appears to be of a Socialist style, and no way you could possibly take it over and turn it into your own - you should be locking yourself away in total isolation in a safe, warm, dark place in case those ever-present terrorist alerts actually prove fruitful instead of being the mere fanciful speculation of scare-mongerers out to keep you in perpetual fear.

You are an embarrassment to society in general. I am in awe that I have allowed myself to continue talking to such an insolent, ignorant, arrogant fool as yourself. Normally, I don't bother, because there's just no teaching some people. I'm quite happy to revert back to that belief, in relation to you, and I would be more than happy to encourage others to do the same.

(Edited by Angie at 11:14 pm on May 30, 2002)

[IzmSchism]

Quote: from Ernest Everhard on 10:13 pm on May 29, 2002
Who ever said there is not such thing as a "clean politician" is right, because there is no such thing as a perfect human being. I voted for the other, other, guy, but I will say that Bush won those elections fair and square. And secondly his supporters aren't deluded, ignorant, stupid, blind or evil. Their people just like you, perhaps a little more sane than you, because most of them don't ascribe to your manicheanisms: Geez, bush the anti-christ?


I am not concerned wether or not someone is a perfect human being, please do not generalize the american presidency in a matter of right or wrong, BUT the only reason Bush won, was that the American High Judicial Courts agreed that for the security of democracy and for the peace of mind on America;s people that Bush be awarded commander and chief, but there were so many fishy things about the last election that for anyone to accept that it was fair is ridculous!! If you want a broken down list of all the fraudulent cases of a mis-represented election I'l be more than happy to post. But come on, your telling me that the honorable Bush wouldn't be open to unfair play, who got him in?? he got in to the White House with money from a company that committed the biggest corporate swindle in American history, the largest bankruptcy in the world!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Angie on 1:11 pm on May 30, 2002
My lord, I cannot believe what I am reading. LOL!

CI turning into a whinging teenager! "Geez, Angie", "Come on, Angie", "Wanna go out for an ice-cream, Angie?", "I love you, Angie!", "Hey Angie, wanna fuck?" Yeah baby, bring it on. I love it when you use my name, come be my *****.

Oh well. At least we no longer need to wonder about what his age is. I place it at about 16. Really, you are very entertaining when you're all upset. And I do suggest that you do some more research into world affairs, both past and present, because your lack of knowledge is embarressing, to say the very least. I suggest you start by befriending a large number of the world's political figures, not just from America, but from all four corners of the planet, from all different political persuasions, racial and ethnic backgrounds, then learn to eek out information from them effectively. Much like I have, and do. Brainwashing is all you could call your knowledge, if you don't.

You're damned right that I'm well thought. A hell of a lot better than you are, actually. I don't sit on multiple degrees for nothing, with two more in the works. You merely chipped the iceberg with that quote. And I couldn't be happier that it's working against you.

CI, you are an immature child who cannot even debate properly. You are a waste of my time, and everyone else's time here. You appear to only be here upon these forums to stir up problems, as you're certainly not assisting the Socialist/Communist way, as is one of the main points of CheLives - in NO WAY have you converted anyone to the Capitalist belief system, who hadn't already been a Capitalist beforehand, and your chances of doing so are so minute that it's not even worth trying. That said, you are a waste of pixels upon this forum. Your presence would be felt and appreciated within a forum of self-righteous Capitalist losers, where they can bow to you as much as you desire, and I do urge you to consider finding them.

I am baffled why someone so anti-Socialist can be mixing with people in any form of society at all, especially one such as this one, where it appears to be of a Socialist style, and no way you could possibly take it over and turn it into your own - you should be locking yourself away in total isolation in a safe, warm, dark place in case those ever-present terrorist alerts actually prove fruitful instead of being the mere fanciful speculation of scare-mongerers out to keep you in perpetual fear.

You are an embarrassment to society in general. I am in awe that I have allowed myself to continue talking to such an insolent, ignorant, arrogant fool as yourself. Normally, I don't bother, because there's just no teaching some people. I'm quite happy to revert back to that belief, in relation to you, and I would be more than happy to encourage others to do the same.

(Edited by Angie at 11:14 pm on May 30, 2002)


Wow,looks like I struck a nerve.

So, are you going to respond to my rebuttals with any logic, or are you just going to toot your horn about how accomplished and accredited you are (claims anyone can make on an internet post) and then continue with your usual personal attacks out of frustration? I believe the latter. In my experience it is more often than not the people who claim they are so wordly, accomplished, and accredited and then proceed to judge and attck others (not something a truly educated and worldly person does), and of course play "guess the age" (the classic internet attack, how original) that are actually lying, and trying to convince themselves of their own self worth because their esteem is low. Basically, its fundamental psychology. Most of your posts are you inflating your credibility (probably with a good dose of fabrication) and trying to diminish others, all in an effort to elevate what is really a low self-esteem. Its ok, though, Angie, you are worth something. Oh, and before you accuse others of being infantile (among other things), go back and read your own post. Certainly doesn't look like the work of someone with multible degrees, world travel, great debate skills, or even common maturity .

[IzmSchism]

CI turning into a whinging teenager! "Geez, Angie", "Come on, Angie", "Wanna go out for an ice-cream, Angie?", "I love you, Angie!", "Hey Angie, wanna fuck?" Yeah baby, bring it on. I love it when you use my name, come be my *****.

Alright, not that I give a shit about pettiness, but what does this all mean??

CI how about you post what significant legislation Bush has been a part of....get back to the debate at hand...if you want a verbal attack, fine but we really get nothing accomplished, as well, if you have a fine point to make about Bush, MAKE IT! instead of, well he has courage, charisma (or character)...a lot of fine people have this quality, and a lot of fuck ups do as well, so get to the point,

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from IzmSchism on 7:12 pm on May 30, 2002


CI turning into a whinging teenager! "Geez, Angie", "Come on, Angie", "Wanna go out for an ice-cream, Angie?", "I love you, Angie!", "Hey Angie, wanna fuck?" Yeah baby, bring it on. I love it when you use my name, come be my *****.

Alright, not that I give a shit about pettiness, but what does this all mean??



Izmschism, I totally agree. If you go back and read agian, that was me quoting her, i.e. that was her attack on me. (Pretty good debater for someone that has self-proclaimed multiple degrees, been around the world, marrying a diplomats son, blah,blah,blah, wouldn't you say?)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from IzmSchism on 7:12 pm on May 30, 2002



CI how about you post what significant legislation Bush has been a part of....get back to the debate at hand...if you want a verbal attack, fine but we really get nothing accomplished, as well, if you have a fine point to make about Bush, MAKE IT! instead of, well he has courage, charisma (or character)...a lot of fine people have this quality, and a lot of fuck ups do as well, so get to the point,


I gave some facts to accompany my qualitative analysis. Also, Bush is the only president I've ever known to cut taxes and actually send me a check giving back my portion of the surplus!!! Are uyou in the US, if you are and are a taxpayer, you know what I'm talking about. And the war on terror is going good, and the economy is bouncing back.

[Anonymous]

stop quoting other people you fat bastard!!!! stop it you capitalist dog!!!! You cant say anything by yourself you have to quote someone Ci your a stupid cappitalist!!!!

[IzmSchism]

No I don't live in the States, me I live in Canada. I thought the great big tax break of Bush's admin was being held back....and that is if you think that cutting taxes are good in the first place....well you would...but anyways.....please inform me if this is otherwise. If you ask me they should keep the money and start applying it to health care. Anyways the war on terror and the fight against the axis of evil is fuct up if you ask me. Just today on CNN, Rumsfield was pleaing to Mushareef and the state of India to not go into war with eachother, yet when the US needs Pakistani airspace to fight the Taliban, it is no fucking problem, scuse my language, but it is a fucking joke just like you CI, I am open to hearing what Bush can do, ye have little faith in thinking that we all just hate capitalism blindly, but the fact of the matter is that we still live in this bullshit and Bush is the captain.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from the anarchist on 8:44 pm on May 30, 2002
stop quoting other people you fat bastard!!!! stop it you capitalist dog!!!! You cant say anything by yourself you have to quote someone Ci your a stupid cappitalist!!!!


Good arguement

[Angie]

Actually, CI, I believe it is you who have not rebutted efficiently. You give bland, half-answered "points", and expect that you be evidence that I am incorrect? I don't think so. If you've got a response to make, I suggest you provide proper, solid evidence, verifiable web links from reputable sources, in fact - a full list of sources would do just fine.

It's all fine and good to claim that someone's lying, but when you can't back it up with evidence, it just falls flat. Therefore, I suggest you merely accept that I am what I am, since you cannot disprove it. Therefore, either find some sort of evidence that supports your claims, or close your trap and leave us to go on without you.

I really do hate a man who cannot cope with the existence of an intelligent, empowered woman, it's rather pitiful to say the very least. And to claim it's due to lack of confidence - that's merely wishful thinking, at best. It's so much easier to destroy a person (apparently the Capitalist pasttime these days, especially here upon these forums) when they're of low confidence, hence the state of the American nation these days. Never mind, darling, I've got plenty of confidence, plenty of thick skin, and can take everything that you dish out, and more. You're welcome to attempt to destroy me, by all means. Go right ahead, it'll be fascinating to watch.

And please, while you're off gathering your evidence in which to use about me, against me, take a wander off into the wild frontier and find your evidence of this Great Leader of your's exceptional qualities. Full, exceptional, non-rebuttal evidence, thanks. Anything less is useless and not even worth the debate. Don't come back until you've found it, as you're not all that welcome here anyhow.


Alright, not that I give a shit about pettiness, but what does this all mean??Merely emphasising the stupidity of him constantly using my name, and the manner in which he made that entire paragraph, nothing more. If merely mirrors the style of his posting, so if you see it as pettiness, then excellent - it mirrors pettiness. Thank you for correctly pointing that out.

(Edited by Angie at 11:37 pm on May 31, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Angie on 1:30 pm on May 31, 2002

It's all fine and good to claim that someone's lying, but when you can't back it up with evidence, it just falls flat. Therefore, I suggest you merely accept that I am what I am, since you cannot disprove it. Therefore, either find some sort of evidence that supports your claims, or close your trap and leave us to go on without you.

I really do hate a man who cannot cope with the existence of an intelligent, empowered woman, it's rather pitiful to say the very least. And to claim it's due to lack of confidence - that's merely wishful thinking, at best. It's so much easier to destroy a person (apparently the Capitalist pasttime these days, especially here upon these forums) when they're of low confidence, hence the state of the American nation these days. Never mind, darling, I've got plenty of confidence, plenty of thick skin, and can take everything that you dish out, and more. (Edited by Angie at 11:37 pm on May 31, 2002)


OK, fine, I can't disprove anything you say, so by that token you can be anything you want to be, go ahead.

I hate someone who can't deal with the existence of an empowered, free thinking, intelligent woman also. But that is not what we have here.

If you check history, and the current state of world affairs, capitalists are not bent on destruction, to the contrary capitalism is responsible for the vast majority of invention, innovation, and world progress in the last century.

Please show me where I directly attacked you without provaction. You can't. I can show you personally attacking me in a number of threads. I don't have a confidence problem. I don't brag about myself and then directly attack others. That is you forte'.

Oh, and the state of America??? Stonger than ever, in every measure, Economy: Worlds strongest (GDP #1),technology: #1 (self evident), Military: worlds strongest, % of college grads: 24% (worlds highest). Oh, and the vast majority of us are very happy, fun loving, content people. Could you be more specific about the "state" of America?

[IzmSchism]

yep the mighty USA also has the highest prisons per capita and the most amount of prisoners held in prisons per capita.....

Much like the sheltered prison where your brain lies, you fail to see outside the yard and all the brainwashing this great country has done to you to blindly accept that a good GDP means a healthy economy which means happy people, or the most wealthiest military means that the country has the means to protect itself from the evils of this world....or that a majority of kids are getting an education at the price of a small house.....I mean WAKE THE FUCK UP my friend, it may be cushy to live in this country with some of the freedoms we enjoy, but to sit here and say that this is IT, this is the pinacle, I suppose only time will tell.

[PaulDavidHewson]

US should improve it's education level.

I don't have any facts readily available, but there are many countries here in Europe which education level lies far above the education level of the US.

People comming from a European university and such can easily get a good job in the US, generally because the education here is better.

So, having many colleges, etc doesn't automatically mean that the education level is good enough.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I agree our public education needs a lot of help, but our colleges are a totally different story, They are 2nd to none. They are on par with european colleges. PDH, you must agree.

[lenin]

is it true you have to pay about $10,000 a year to attend university in USA? or am i a victim of soviet proaganda?

[Capitalist Imperial]

They are not all that expensive. Many are,though. Do you mean just tuition? Or are you including housing, books, etc??? An american college education is well worth the $$$.

[Capitalist Imperial]

American colleges are easily among the best in the world. US college graduates can get a job in europe easily, because american colleges are highly accredited and acknowledged. Now, our public school system (K-12) is a different story, it can definately use some revitalization.

[PaulDavidHewson]

yes I agree that US education isn't all that bad of course, I'm just saying that more european countries have better education. Still I cannot prove this at the moment, but it is something that I heard and is considered a fact by those I heard it from :P :o

Also I think Us education could do a little more about world history and confine it a little less to US history.
Though I didn't have a US education of course I cannot speak from personal experience, it's just that when I talk to Us citizens I notice that they know little of world history facts that doesn't concern the US.

(drunk?: yes thanks, those euro's never stay in my pocket for long, they tend to go into my stomach after being converted to the liquid that helped ugly people have sex since 1862) :)

[Angie]

*sigh* I don't know why you even bother, CI, you've just dug yourself into your own shit further.

National Debt

National Debt currently stands at approximately: $14 trillion.

The federal debt has doubled in the last 8 years, during what is reported to the American people as being a record setting economic boom.

"Mr. Speaker, we are here now in chapter 11. Members of Congress are official trustees presiding over the greatest reorganization of any Bankrupt entity in world history, the U.S. Government. We are setting forth hopefully, a blueprint for our future. There are some who say it is a coroner's report that will lead to our demise."
-- United States Congressional Record - March 17, 1993 - Vol. #33, page H-1303 - Speaker- Rep. James Traficant, Jr. (Ohio) addressing the House

Let's start by looking at the "equities markets", most notably the stock market. Over the last several years a constant media onslaught has assured Americans that the soaring numbers of the stock market are the sole measure of how good their economy is. But close examination of those high-priced stocks reveals that most are heavily over-valued; their price the result of market forces rather than underlying worth. Amazon.com, as one example, has had a terrific run-up of its stock price, even though the company itself has yet to show a profit.

The government has admitted to using covert means to prevent a market downturn; to keep the stock prices at an artificially high and overvalued level, in order to wave those impressive numbers about as "proof" that everything is okay so that the taxpayers go back to work and pay more taxes. But in order to keep those stock prices up above their actual worth, demand must be maintained to keep the prices high. In other words, NEW investors must constantly be brought into the bottom of the pyramid to keep the prices of the stocks at the top from dropping. Hence the onslaught of commercials luring new investors into the stock market via "online trading".

On the whole, your nation is broke, bankrupt, and having sold much of its machinery and technology (or given it away to political donors), is unable to easily return to those endeavors which once made your nation great. Your infrastructure is in decay (the percentage of roads in the US with major damage doubled last year alone), your public schools are unable to produce a workforce able to function in a high-tech manufacturing environment, and those managers end engineers with manufacturing experience have in great part been lured away to other nations. The severity of your total government debt has reached a point where the promise that the taxpayers can be made to cover any foreign investment loss rings hollow, because you can no longer pay the debts your government has now.

Your nation doesn't make many of the products it used to make. Consequently you don't have the products to sell that you used to. You don't even make most of the products you need ourselves (like that computer you're staring at this very moment). Result: you have a massive trade imbalance. Cash is flowing out of your nation, and it's not coming back in anywhere near as fast. Your nation is becoming poorer, is hopelessly in debt, and all the artificial escalation of stock prices cannot conceal that.

Taxation System -

"Our Country has labored under a federal income tax system that is inconsistent with the liberty of a free people. Quite simply, the government of a free people should not tax the labor of it’s citizens, and it is imperative that the federal tax system not be repugnant (contrary) to the constitution and its laws."
-- Congressman Roscoe Bartlett, Oct. 2001.

I'm know that if I search around a little harder, I can find evidenct of a number of U.S state governments being unable to repay tax returns to the citizens of those states. Perhaps that can be left for another day when I have another 3 hours to put aside.

Freedoms of Speech, Expression, Information / The Constitution

The Constitution / Freedom of Speech -

The FBI had released a brochure to it's officers which makes it a crime to defend the U.S Constitution. In fact, it's not just considered a crime, but a terrorist act. This flier was apparently never meant to eek out into general society, but it did. Does a good job at giving an idea of the paranoia running through your nation these days.

The FBI has also banned people from mentioning the Constitution during Court cases - so no more mentions about how people should be allowed to question the government, nor oppose having their civil liberties taken away from them...

Here's where I'll also mention that lovely issue of the Courts who support pro-war activists, while silencing anti-war activists.

And how about the incident in New York on January 22, where 55 people were arrested on the steps of the U.S. Mission to the United Nations this morning as they called for a change in US foreign policy, an end to the war in Afghanistan, and an end to the expansion of the war. Their protest was civil, and they spoke of the wish to continue the legacy of peacemaking begun by Martin Luther King.

Not to mention the universities of the United States that have become the battlegrounds on which ideological and political wars regarding the "War on Terror".

What is interesting, however, is that it is the academics rather than the students that are getting involved more publicly.

Liberal academics who have organised teach-ins on the war, voiced opposition or criticised American foreign policy, claim that they have been identified as unpatriotic and that funding of their courses is now at risk.

They blame the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA), the conservative watchdog group founded by Lynne Cheney, wife of the vice-president, and Senator Joe Lieberman, for targeting them.

Freedom of Information -

Passed in 1974 in the wake of the Watergate scandal, the Freedom of Information Act has been hailed as one of America's greatest democratic reforms. Yet on October 10, 2001, the attorney general simply quashed the FOIA. Very little was made public of the instance.

"When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions unless they lack a sound legal basis or present an unwarranted risk of adverse impact on the ability of other agencies to protect other important records."
-- Ashcroft.

Couple that with President Bush's Nov. 1 executive order that allows him to seal all presidential records since 1980.

Freedom of Expression -

Three cases out of who knows how many, in which Freedom of Expression has been questioned and/or repressed, due to things being not in line with the Government. I have plenty more, just holler if you want them.

-----

Two men, Terrence Donahue of the FBI and Steven Smith of the Secret Service, turned up around 10:30am on November 7, 2001, arrived at the doorstep of the Art Car Museum, an avant-garde museum in Houston, Texas. They were met at the door by young worker named Donna Huanca.

"I told them to wait until we opened at 11:00," she recalls. "Then they pulled their badges out. They said they had several reports of anti-American activity going on here and wanted to see the exhibit," she says. The museum was running a show called "Secret Wars," which contains many anti-war statements that were commissioned before September 11."

The two men were given a tour of the gallery, and took down notes about art pieces they felt were negative, "Un-American", "Anti-War".

-----

"Dear Bookseller, [it begins] Last week, President Bush signed into law an antiterrorism bill that gives the federal government expanded authority to search your business records, including the titles of the books purchased by your customers. . . . There is no opportunity for you or your lawyer to object in court. You cannot object publicly, either. The new law includes a gag order that prevents you from disclosing 'to any person' the fact that you have received an order to produce documents."
-- American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression (ABFFE), November 1, 2001, in a letter to its members.

-----

A freshman at Durham Tech in North Carolina, A.J. Brown, received a visit by officers from the Raleign Branch of the Secret Service on October 26 at 5:00pm.

Her account:

"Hi, we're from the Raleigh branch of the Secret Service," two agents said.

"And they flip out their little ID cards, and I was like, 'What?'

"And they say, 'We're here because we have a report that you have un-American material in your apartment.' And I was like, 'What? No, I don't have anything like that.'

" 'Are you sure? Because we got a report that you've got a poster that's anti-American.'

"And I said no."

They asked if they could come into the apartment. "Do you have a warrant?" Brown asked. "And they said no, they didn't have a warrant, but they wanted to just come in and look around. And I said, 'Sorry, you're not coming in.' "

One of the agents told Brown, "We already know what it is. It's a poster of Bush hanging himself," she recalls. "And I said no, and she was like, 'Well, then, it's a poster with a target on Bush's head,' and I was like, nope."

The poster they seemed interested in was one that depicted Bush holding a rope, with the words: "We Hang on Your Every Word. George Bush, Wanted: 152 Dead." The poster has sketches of people being hanged, and it refers to the number who were put to death in Texas while Bush was governor, she explains.

Ultimately, Brown agreed to open her door so that the agents could see the poster on the wall of her apartment, though she did not let them enter. "They just kept looking at the wall," which contained political posters from the Bush counter-inaugural, a "Free Mumia" poster, a picture of Jesse Jackson, and a Pink Floyd poster with the quotation: "Mother, should I trust the government?"

At one point in the conversation, one of the agents mentioned Brown's mother, saying, "She's in the armed forces, isn't she?" (Her mother, in fact, is in the Army Reserve.)

After they were done inspecting the wall, one of the agents "pulled out his little slip of paper, and he asked me some really stupid questions, like, my name, my Social Security number, my phone number," she says. "Then they asked, 'Do you have any pro-Taliban stuff in your apartment, any posters, any maps?'

"I was like, 'No, I don't, and personally, I think the Taliban is just a bunch of assholes.' "

With that, they left. They had been at her apartment for forty minutes.

"They called me two days later to make sure my information was correct: where I lived, my phone number, and my nicknames," she says.

"Obviously, I'm on some list somewhere."

President Bush (and friends) -

Once again, merely scraping the surface.

1. Crawford, Texas, Dec. 28, 2002 -- President Bush said he'll use presidential authority to sidestep a rule requiring his administration to provide Congress with written notice of U.S. intelligence activities.

2. Washington, Dec. 13, 2001 - President Bush invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena exploring abuses in the Boston FBI office, prompting the chairman of a House committee to lambaste his fellow Republicans and triggering what one congressman said is the start of ''a constitutional confrontation.''

''We've got a dictatorial president and a Justice Department that does not want Congress involved. ... Your guy's acting like he's king.''
GOP Representative Dan Burton of Indiana to Carl Thorsen, a deputy assistant attorney general.

3. Washington, Dec. 14, 2001 -- Since taking office, President Bush has sent a clear message to Congress: Some sensitive information Capitol Hill lawmakers have been used to getting will be off limits. He invoked executive privilege to protect the confidentiality of prosecutorial documents Congress has often received in the past. Kept out of lawmakers' hands are documents pertaining to the FBI's handling of mob informants in Boston in the 1960s and the Clinton-era fund-raising probe of the 1990s.

4. Washington, Nov. 1, 2001: The Bush White House has drafted an executive order that would usher in a new era of secrecy for presidential records and allow an incumbent president to withhold a former president's papers even if the former president wanted to make them public.

5. Nov. 29, 2001: President George W. Bush appears ready to nominate J. Robert Brame III to serve as a member of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), despite Brame's long-standing leadership of religious-political extremist groups on the farthest fringes of the Religious Right. Brame has served as a top official of American Vision, an Atlanta-based group that seeks to replace America's secular democracy with a "Christian" regime based on "biblical law," including enforcement of the harsh legal code of the Old Testament. He has also served as an advisor to the Plymouth Rock Foundation, a Plymouth, Mass., group with similar views.

American Vision has described democracy as "the first step toward fascism," argues that women must be subordinate to men and insists that the Bible requires the death penalty for gays.

6. WASHINGTON -- Misadvised by Ashcroft, President Bush has assumed what amounts to dictatorial power to jail or execute foreigners. Intimidated by terrorists and inflamed by a passion for rough justice, Americans are letting President Bush get away with the replacement of the American rule of law with military kangaroo courts. In his infamous emergency order, Bush admits to dismissing "the principles of law and the rules of evidence" that undergird America's system of justice. He seizes the power to circumvent the courts and set up his own drumhead tribunals — panels of officers who will sit in judgment of non-citizens who the president need only claim "reason to believe" are members of terrorist organizations.

Just wait until I get started on Ashcroft... But again, I'll leave that until another day.

Bush Family links with the Nazis -

In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George, the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush.

Oct. 28, 1942: The U.S. Government issued orders seizing two Nazi front organizations run by the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation.

President Bush's family played a central role in financing and arming Adolf Hitler for his takeover of Germany; in financing and managing the buildup of Nazi war industries for the conquest of Europe and war against the U.S.A.; and in the development of Nazi genocide theories and racial propaganda, with their well-known results.

The President's family fortune was largely a result of the Hitler project. The powerful Anglo-American family associations, which later boosted him into the Central Intelligence Agency and up to the White House, were his father's partners in the Hitler project.

President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley, signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading with the Enemy Act.

By deciding that Prescott Bush and the other directors of the Union Banking Corp. were legally front men for the Nazis, the government avoided the more important historical issue: In what way were Hitler's Nazis themselves hired, armed and instructed by the New York and London clique of which Prescott Bush was an executive manager?

Brief Background -

Fritz Thyssen, prime sponsor of Adolf Hitler, and his business partners are universally recognized as the most important German financiers of Adolf Hitler's takeover of Germany. At the time of the order seizing the Thyssen family's Union Banking Corp., Mr. Fritz Thyssen had already admitted that he had financed Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement since October 1923. Thyssen's role as the leading early backer of Hitler's grab for power in Germany had been noted by U.S. diplomats in Berlin in 1932.

Two weeks before the official order, government investigators had reported secretly that "W. Averell Harriman was in Europe sometime prior to 1924 and at that time became acquainted with Fritz Thyssen, the German industrialist." Harriman and Thyssen agreed to set up a bank for Thyssen in New York. "[C]ertain of [Harriman's] associates would serve as directors...." Thyssen agent "H. J. Kouwenhoven ... came to the United States ... prior to 1924 for conferences with the Harriman Company in this connection...."

The Union Banking Corporation was established formally in 1924, as a unit in the Manhattan offices of W.A. Harriman & Co., interlocking with the Thyssen-owned Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart (BHS) in the Netherlands. The investigators concluded that "the Union Banking Corporation has since its inception handled funds chiefly supplied to it through the Dutch bank by the Thyssen interests for American investment."

By personal agreement between Averell Harriman and Fritz Thyssen in 1922, W.A. Harriman & Co. (alias Union Banking Corporation) would be transferring funds back and forth between New York and the "Thyssen interests" in Germany. By putting up about $400,000, the Harriman organization would be joint owner and manager of Thyssen's banking operations outside of Germany.

Prescott Bush became vice president of W.A. Harriman & Co. in 1926. That same year, a friend of Harriman and Bush set up a giant new organization for their client Fritz Thyssen. The new German Steel Trust, Germany's largest industrial corporation, was organized in 1926 by Wall Street banker Clarence Dillon. Dillon was the old comrade of Prescott Bush's father Sam Bush from the "Merchants of Death" bureau in World War I.

The firm's banking activities were not just politically neutral money-making ventures which happened to coincide with the aims of German Nazis. All of the firm's European business in those days was organized around anti-democratic political forces.

In 1927, criticism of their support for totalitarianism drew this retort from Bert Walker, written from Kennebunkport to Averell Harriman: "It seems to me that the suggestion in connection with Lord Bearsted's views that we withdraw from Russia smacks somewhat of the impertinent.... I think that we have drawn our line and should hew to it."

[Averell Harriman met with Italy's fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini. A representative of the firm subsequently telegraphed good news back to his chief executive Bert Walker: "... During these last days ... Mussolini ... has examined and approved our contract 15 June."]

The great financial collapse of 1929-31 shook America, Germany and Britain, weakening all governments. It also made Prescott Bush even more willing to do whatever was necessary to retain his new place in the world. It was in this crisis that certain Anglo-Americans determined on the installation of a Hitler regime in Germany.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again, that'll do for the time being. It's only a start, I've plenty more information to go on. But I can't be bothered, since I've typed enough for my hands to just about drop off.

Now, for once CI, be silent. Your nation is in crisis, and has been for decades. You cannot see it, because your Government doesn't WANT you to see it. It's altering everything so that life looks grand, when in reality, it's FAR from grand. There's a reason why the world hates the U.S Government (yes, even to the point of wanting to slam planes into federal buildings) - it's because it's the biggest scam in history. Wake up and smell the coffee, you're being deceived.

You can argue until you're blue in the face, but you will never receive the upper hand, as there is FAR too much evidence pointing away from your reality-bubble.

Any response from you now could only be paralleled with a child's temper tantrum at not having everything their own way. You are but one out of millions in your nation who are ignorant to your Government's ways, and you cannot dispute what is being layed out on the table before you by thousands of people who have risked their lives to bring the truth to you. Some have even died, for you.

It is in your best interest to be silent while you still have any self-respect left.

[Capitalist Imperial]

LOL, Angie, I appreciate your efforts, but these records and third party reports can be chalked up as spun propaganda. I don't deny they're true, of course the US has made adjustments to its security policies after 9/11, what exactly did you expect? And what country's government has not participated in covert observation of its constituency? If you are singling out the US for this type of activity, you need to look at our government's behavior relative to other nations. I can post just as much info and more on covert operations and questionable legislation executed by commie and socialist regimes, and said practices will be much worse, more frequent, and of greater atrocities than the sum of the minor adjustments that our government has made. History shows us that the US is by far the most humane and alturistic country in existence. The citizenry of the united states as a whole does not feel that their freedom has been compromised 1 iota, and for the most part we don't mind the minor changes made by our government in the interest of our safety. Oh, and the national debt is a paper tiger. look at it against gdp. We are doing just fine. Honestly, I could easily go harvest a bunch of "facts" from the internet and other sources about the atrocities and travesties of china, russia, and even australia, you know that, angie, but that would be a waste of time to me, because #1 this forum is a mere daliance for me and i don't want to dedicate that much time to it, and #2 we could all cite sources, paraphrase, and cut/paste text until we are all blue in the face, this is the information age. I am here to discuss real-world situations, behaviors, and philosophy. Those facts you give by themselves sound really bad, but look at the real-world overall, and you see that the US and capitalism are more succesful than any other country/system, and, contrary to what most anti-american fanatics would like to believe, the people of the US are quite happy and quite knowledgeable as to what is going on in our nation. So it is you that should wake up, and worry about bettering your own country, instead of trying with pathetic futitlty to bring ours down with your brand of hate.

[Angie]

*shrugs* Okay, it's your future. I wipe my hands with your ignorance.

[Anonymous]

CI you dumbass!!! just stop it!!!! you are just proving that cappitalism makes people stupid! wen you talk you are just making socialism looking beter because your arguments are stupid!! now just be quiet and keep wacking!

[Hattori Hanzo]

CI- before you endlessly assualt me with critisism, I respect you for your courage to argue for what you believe in

W. WAS ELECTED BY A PEOPLE WHICH WAS BLINDED BY THE PLUTOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!