Mark Steel on Tibet

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Some comrades might enjoy reading this:


Mark Steel: So Tibetans have been brainwashed by a rogue...

The Independent

Wednesday, 26 March 2008


Surely no one with a fragment of humanity can fail to be moved by the protesters in Tibet, not so much because of their courage and optimism, but because in one clip on the news they were on horseback. That's how to arrive at demonstrations. Imagine if there was some protest at the local town hall, and just as it was petering out it was joined by the "Save Luton Library Cavalry". Then the leader fiddled with his knee-length beard, announced "Councillors, prepare to meet your doom" and laughed with a threatening high-pitched cackle before jumping off his horse to drop-kick the mayor. Then it could all be portrayed in a film called Placards of Fury.

But mostly it seems the Chinese government are working hardest to live up to their stereotype. For example, the Communist Party Tibet Daily described the protesting monks as "Loyal running dogs of the Dalai Clique." You'd know if someone from the Tibet Daily got a job on the Shepton Mallet Gazette, because the articles would begin "On Saturday there was a demonstration by pensioners who object to the proposed closure of the sub-post office in Wickton Street.

"It was organised by proprietor Mrs Henderson, a poisonous feudal decaying rat, lickspittle bourgeois stooge of her stamp-peddling reactionary camel-dung husband, the so-called Mister Henderson."

Similarly, if the Communist Party chief in Tibet was seriously trying to persuade neutrals of his case, he might not have referred to the Dalai Lama as "A devil with a human face, but the heart of a beast." To be fair, this sort of language might be what's needed to liven up political debate in this country. Then on Question Time, Dimbleby could say: "So Frank Dobson says you're a devil with a human face and the bowels of a hyena – how do you respond to that, Shirley Williams?"

The Chinese government's claim that the situation in Tibet amounts to random criminal violence, which the military are trying to deal with calmly, might be open to question, given that one side is protected by armoured vehicles and the other side is protected by loose-fitting silky orange cloth. Maybe the Tibet Daily will inform its readers: "Kindly policemen faced further anarchy yesterday when batty Buddhists tried to DAZZLE them with their blinding robes. A spokesman said: 'We had no choice but to open fire. Some of them had gongs, and if they'd started using them as frisbees who knows WHAT damage they'd have done?'"

The Chinese government may add its flourishes to its justification for brutality, but in general the language is familiar. It's similar to the line put forward by any empire when faced with an uprising: "an anarchic minority, opposed to progress, funded by outsiders" and so on. Back in the days of the Cold War, this type of scenario led to the most splendid hypocrisy, such as Western leaders cheering heroic trade unionists in communist Poland but supporting the army that was murdering heroic trade unionists in capitalist Chile. But there was another infuriating side to that situation, which is that most people who considered themselves "on the left" had an affection for the communist countries. Speaking to them about some vile dictator in Eastern Europe was like talking to a woman who insists on going out with a grotesque bloke. You'd say "Can't you see – he starves his population and there's no free speech and he puts dissidents in gulags," and they'd reply "Aah but you don't see the gentle caring side of him like I do."

Then they'd cheer heroic trade unionists in capitalist Chile but support the army that was murdering heroic trade unionists in communist Poland.

So yesterday, with a touching hint of nostalgia, the Communist Party paper the Morning Star told us anyone who supported the Dalai Lama was "A fool or a rogue," and the fact that there have been riots in several cities "is evidence they were put up to it by someone", and suggests "someone who had fundamentalist power over these people." So Tibetans are defying a powerful army because they've been brainwashed by a 72-year-old with glasses who presumably chants his orders up a mountain, and as they echo round the valleys his followers stare into the distance and say robotically "Orders – from – master – must – get – crushed – by –tank."

The marvellous modern twist, however, is that now Western leaders and Rupert Murdoch want to be friends with the Communist leaders of China as well. What a feel-good story it is, communists and captalists finally settling their differences, and realising they have so much in common, such as the desire to shoot teenagers protesting for freedom – and all in the name of freedom.



http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-so-tibetans-have-been-brainwashed-by-a-rogue-800536.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-so-tibetans-have-been-brainwashed-by-a-rogue-800536.html)

[Ferryman 5]

Yes some might enjoy it and then they can examine how the wiseacre clown avoids any detail accuracy or truth in order to conjure up his 'humor'. Some might notice how he lazily uses dated stereotypes to make us laugh.

[Guerrilla22]

Its interesting that people in the West get so worked up over Chinese "human rights violations" but yet human rights abuses committed by Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan go unoticed.

[Wanted Man]

Yes some might enjoy it and then they can examine how the wiseacre clown avoids any detail accuracy or truth in order to conjure up his 'humor'. Some might notice how he lazily uses dated stereotypes to make us laugh.
Indeed.

I'm even less surprised by the fact that Rosa is regurgitating red-baiting hack jobs.

[Hit The North]

Indeed.

I'm even less surprised by the fact that Rosa is regurgitating red-baiting hack jobs.

"Red-baiting"? You mean the capitalist government of China?

You should be a comedian! :glare:

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Guerilla22, Mark Steel regularly writes about the abuses you mention. I hope you are not suggesting we should ignore those in Tibet!

Ferryman:


Yes some might enjoy it and then they can examine how the wiseacre clown avoids any detail accuracy or truth in order to conjure up his 'humor'. Some might notice how he lazily uses dated stereotypes to make us laugh.


I see; the truth about the former 'socialist' states is too much to swallow, is it?

De Baron:


I'm even less surprised by the fact that Rosa is regurgitating red-baiting hack jobs.

Less surprising still is your equation of 'red-baiting' with his exposure of the attack on trade unionists world-wide, both by the US imperialists and their lackeys, and the ruling classes of E. Europe and the former USSR.

So, I was right; only a few of us socialists enjoyed this article...:rolleyes:

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Good article, Mark Steel's column is about the only good thing in the Independent. I don't read it enough, I remember he wrote a pretty good piece on Tesco ages ago. Thanks for posting Rosa.

An injustice anywhere, is an injustice... We shouldn't let those in Israel etc shadow Tibet, just as vice versa. The fact the bourgeoise media focuses more on Tibet doesn't make it any less pertinent. I don't understand how some leftists still hold this fetishism over ultra-authoritarian capitalist nations which operate under a vague goad of communism - some of you guys are worse than Christians for denying reality.

[Ferryman 5]

Good article, Mark Steel's column is about the only good thing in the Independent. I don't read it enough, I remember he wrote a pretty good piece on Tesco ages ago. Thanks for posting Rosa.

An injustice anywhere, is an injustice... We shouldn't let those in Israel etc shadow Tibet, just as vice versa. The fact the bourgeoise media focuses more on Tibet doesn't make it any less pertinent. I don't understand how some leftists still hold this fetishism over ultra-authoritarian capitalist nations which operate under a vague goad of communism - some of you guys are worse than Christians for denying reality.

Some of us guys are just commenting on a very silly article by Mark
Steel and look at the indignation that aroused. Frayed nerve?

[Keyser]

The marvellous modern twist, however, is that now Western leaders and Rupert Murdoch want to be friends with the Communist leaders of China as well. What a feel-good story it is, communists and captalists finally settling their differences, and realising they have so much in common, such as the desire to shoot teenagers protesting for freedom – and all in the name of freedom.


That last paragraph in Mark Steel's article is anti-communist propaganda (and a lazy attempt at that!), not because China and it's regime is communist, far from it.

If Mark Steel wanted to be accurate, he would have ended that article on how a capitalist China and it's capitalist leaders collaborate with other capitalist forces, Murdoch among many others.

Mark Steel simply does a re-run of the more extreme sections of what the bourgeois class, especially in the USA do, of attaching the system and ideas of communism to todays China. All he has done is misinformed a good number of people in a bourgeois newspaper that communism is associated with the system that exists in China.

So much for Mark Steel's Marxism if he cannot even give a materialist analysis to this situation!

All in all a really rubbish article, but I would not expect much from a newspaper like the Independent, their only decent writers in my own opinion are Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn who do a good job on reporting of the current horrors that are taking place in the Middle East.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Keyser, he calls them 'communists' since they call themselves 'communists'.

If you have a complaint, may I suggest you address it to Beijing? I am sure they are dying to hear from you...

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Some of us guys are just commenting on a very silly article by Mark
Steel and look at the indignation that aroused. Frayed nerve?

In fact, you are expressing a political opinion about a piece of comic writing -- and not doing that too well, either.

[Ferryman 5]

The facts are so simple. The Tibetan Nationalist bourgeois with their imperialist backers staged a racist provocation to embarrass the Chinese government in advance of the Olympic games hoping for a "massacre of the innocent", but the stunt has backfired because they got no massacre and the innocent, the Chinese workers were injured or burned to death by in a racist assault.

Your silence and Mark Steels smokescreen to obscure these simple facts is what is becoming more amusing by the day, and truly eloquent.

[Zurdito]

The facts are so simple. The Tibetan Nationalist bourgeois with their imperialist backers staged a racist provocation to embarrass the Chinese government in advance of the Olympic games

1.) What "national bourgeois". can we have facts on this Tibetan "national bourgeois" and how they compare to the chinese bourgeoisie in terms of wealth, power and exploitation of workers, please? It seems to me that as Tibet is not even a state, it can't have a "national bourgeoisie" at all.

2.) What evidence is there at all that the protests were "staged" by the Tibetan elite? those protesting were certainly not "bourgeois" and nor were their demands immediately and obviously bourgeois, so it seems we need more to back up this statement.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman, we already know that supporters of the mass murderers in Beijing will say anything to justify the attrocities the latter commit, just like rabid supporters of the US say the same sorts of things in 'defence' of US imperialism.

But, it's nice to see another fool nail his colours to this class-compromised mast...

[BIG BROTHER]

I condem the Chinese goverment for its brutal opresion, and not being socialist.

And I condem the guy that wrote this article for his anti-communist propaganda.

[Zurdito]

I condem the Chinese goverment for its brutal opresion, and not being socialist.

And I condem the guy that wrote this article for his anti-communist propaganda.

It depends what you mean. If you mean that he referred to the Chinese Communsit Party withou explaining that they are not communist then I agree, he came across like a liberal who hates "communism".

But if you are referring to his criticisms of stalinists in themselves then I disagree, regarding that there was no anti-communist propaganda, only facts. if the Communist Party of Britain say stupid things, then they should be prepared to see them quoted, and to defend themselves. We shouldn't spare the blushes of traitors to our class just because they hide behind the label "communist".

In any case, I doubt they would even mind the article, as knowing them they will be proud of what they wrote and glad that it was publicised.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

josefrancisco:



And I condem the guy that wrote this article for his anti-communist propaganda.


You forgot to condemn yourself for your gullibility.

[Ferryman 5]

Chai Ling was the self proclaimed "Commander-in Chief" of the students in Tinanmen Square.

See how sh calls for blood. And what is she doing now?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?r1439F933A05757C0A963958260&sec=&sChaipon=&pagewanted=all

[Ferryman 5]

6 Years After the Tiananmen Massacre, Survivors Clash Anew on Tactics



By PATRICK E. TYLER
Published: April 30, 1995
Six years after tanks and machine guns silenced their democracy movement, Chinese student leaders who rallied a nation during six weeks of protest at Tiananmen Square in 1989 are at odds with one another over the history of the event.
The production of two new documentary films, both based on extensive reconstructions of the days leading up to the military assault on central Beijing on June 3-4, has resurrected the debate over whether the students should have surrendered the 99-acre square before the crackdown and thus avoided the bloodshed that claimed hundreds of lives.

The debate does not call into question the overall motives of the spontaneous pro-democracy protest that began on April 15, 1989, nor does it seek to excuse the brutality of the Chinese Government for the deaths that occurred when 200,000 army troops were ordered to reclaim central Beijing from the students.
But a central question for many in the student movement, and for some historians, is whether moderation gave way to extremism during those six weeks and whether the more radical student leaders spurned opportunities to declare victory by ending the demonstrations and preserving, perhaps, the reformist trend that was still a prominent feature of the Chinese leadership.
To document the streak of radicalism in the student movement, the Boston-based producers of a three-hour documentary that is scheduled to be shown on the Public Broadcasting System this year are bringing new focus to a lengthy videotaped interview given by one student leader, Chai Ling, five days before the military crackdown.
In it, Ms. Chai said the hidden strategy of the leadership group she dominated was to provoke the Government to violence against the unarmed students. With statements like "What we are actually hoping for is bloodshed" and "Only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes," Ms. Chai denounced those students who sought to bring an end to the occupation of the square.
These remarks, which have never been fully presented, provide new insight into the tension-filled environment that was generated by mass demonstrations in 1989. Ms. Chai now argues that what she said at the time should be viewed in light of the highly charged standoff with the Government, and not as examples of extremism.
The overall re-examination of Tiananmen comes as China's Communist Party leadership is preparing for the death of Deng Xiaoping, whose departure as paramount leader is expected to pave the way for a full reassessment of the party's condemnation of the demonstration by hundreds of thousands of people as a "counterrevolutionary rebellion."
Mr. Deng's youngest daughter, Xiao Rong, the first member of the family to address the subject publicly, indicated in an interview this year that a national reconciliation over Tiananmen would be up to "the people who come after" her father.
For the thousands of students who fled abroad, or were imprisoned, and for millions of Chinese who have lived through years of hard-line repression since 1989, the time may finally be approaching to reassess, if not lift, the Tiananmen verdict.
"If there is a reconsideration of the movement, part of the work of everyone who participated will be to face their own moral responsibility, even though it was the Government that opened fire," said Liu Xiaobo, one of the Chinese intellectuals who persuaded the last 3,000 students to leave the square at 5 A.M. on June 4 -- after a nightlong assault on the streets of Beijing.
Drafting a "correct history" of the 1989 movement is the "solemn responsibility" of its leaders," said Mr. Liu, now 40, who spent 19 months in prison after the crackdown.
The debate over the outcome at Tiananmen began among the student leaders almost immediately after the crackdown and has continued among historians since, although mostly out of public view.
But this year's re-examination, in part prompted by these new documentary accounts, is bringing discomforting issues to the fore.
In "Moving the Mountain," a documentary that is opening this month in New York, another protest leader, Wang Chaohua, gives tearful testimony to the students' "mistakes" that provoked the Government assault and she reveals her anger at Ms. Chai, who became the uncompromising icon of the movement in its final days.
Today, Ms. Wang, now 42, wants nothing to do with the promotion of the documentary, arguing that it lionizes the roles of Ms. Chai, now 29, and her deputy on the square, Li Lu, now 27.
For her part, Ms. Chai defends her actions.
"I don't agree with the word 'radical,' or 'extremist,' " she said in an interview from Boston, where she now lives.
Ms. Chai asserted that the goal of the movement was to establish a dialogue with the Government and that this never changed.
The documentary's director, Michael Apted, said by telephone from Los Angeles that he and the producer, Trudie Styler, had acquired the rights to Mr. Li's autobiography, but that they decided to broaden the work to include other voices when they realized "how disparate the views and how unreconciled" the student leaders were.
"I never said it was objective or reasoned or balanced," Mr. Apted said. "Trudie wanted to make an emotional film, to see the price people paid."
The second documentary, "The Gate of Heavenly Peace," is being produced by the Long Bow Group of Boston and may be the most comprehensive documentary work on Tiananmen to date. The film's producers, Richard Gordon and Carma Hinton, have spent five years assembling an international archive of videotape and tape-recorded interviews to examine the entire student movement.
Their thesis, that moderation was swept aside during the final days of the demonstrations, has previously been raised by some who watched the events unfold.
"If the students had left earlier, there wouldn't have been a massacre," said Robin Munro, the Hong Kong director of the New York-based Human Rights Watch, who was a witness to the events of 1989. "I wouldn't take the next step and say the students are responsible for the massacre. But if they had left earlier, there would not have been a June 4 and the legacy of the movement, the icon of the massacre, would not be the same."
In 1993, Mr. Munro co-wrote a detailed account of the efforts by a number of Chinese intellectuals and student leaders to head off the military assault. These efforts failed not for lack of broad support, he argued, but because the most uncompromising of the student leaders, principally Ms. Chai and Mr. Li, would not agree to abandon the square.
Orville Schell, an author who has written extensively on China, said: "They were young, extreme. They played to the crowd and they really didn't know where they were going."
But, Mr. Schell added, "the historical record now speaks for itself with greater clarity than ever before on the dynamic of the whole movement and on how extremism did prevail in the end."
"The Gate of Heavenly Peace" will challenge the conventional wisdom that the student leadership was unified and that it was unerringly dedicated to nonviolence and dialogue with the Chinese Government, said Mr. Schell, who is an adviser to film.
Five days before the military assault, according to the documentary, Ms. Chai told Philip Cunningham, an American journalist: "How can I tell them that what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the Government is ready to brazenly butcher the people? I feel that only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes."
Referring to those who were trying to prevent violence, she said, "They are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the square before the Government is provoked to violence."
Ms. Chai also said she herself was not prepared to stay in the square.
"I'm not going to be destroyed by this Government," she said in the interview. "I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't care if people say I'm selfish."
Ms. Chai said she now generally remembered making these statements but argued that they should be placed in the context of six weeks of confrontation with the Government.
After Ms. Chai and other student leaders voted on May 27 to declare victory on May 30 and march off the square, she changed her mind upon returning and being confronted by Mr. Li, who angrily denounced the decision.
Speaking by telephone from New York, where he is studying law and business administration, Mr. Li said that "if we left the square what would happen is very simple." The Government, he said, would still have carried out a vast campaign of arrests, secret killings and persecution.
As troops moved forward on the morning of June 4, Mr. Liu and others negotiated with an army colonel to allow the students a safe withdrawal, which happened at 5 A.M., about eight hours after the shooting began in various parts of central Beijing.
"To this day, Li Lu has not reflected critically on his actions in the movement," said Zhou Duo, 48, a participant in the movement who remained in China. "In fact, in many people's view, Chai Ling and Li Lu were the ones who ruined things. They were the ones who brought events to the point that no one wanted to see."
Mr. Schell said that the two films portray competing images of the student movement.
"There will be a war over which one is the right historical interpretation," he said, "and it's starting. This is a history that is howling to be told."

Edit: CIA STOOGES ON ONE SIDE AND REVOLUTIONARY WORKERS ON THE OTHER.

[Guerrilla22]

Guerilla22, Mark Steel regularly writes about the abuses you mention. I hope you are not suggesting we should ignore those in Tibet!


Okay, well I am not familar with this writer, I was just commenting on the hypocrisy of the bourgeios media on the issue, apparently this writer is from an independent news source?

[Ferryman 5]

Okay, well I am not familar with this writer, I was just commenting on the hypocrisy of the bourgeios media on the issue, apparently this writer is from an independent news source?

He is a Trotskyist supporter of the Socialist Workers Party. (Britain) They are anti-communists who hate the dictatorship of the proletariat and claim to be 'neutral' in the fight between imperialism and its enemies.

However, they invariably end up marching in step with imperialism as demonstrated by this Tibet provocation. They are forever sucking up to all kinds of reformists, 'civil liberties' activists and the like such as the RESPECT party and "Gorgeous George" Galloway. But they have just got the brush off from George so they are looking for another front organisation or course to haunt.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman: the SWP is merely against the dictaorship over the proletariat, found in China, the former USSR and E.Europe (the latter before those brutes were kicked out, and where not one worker raised his/her hand in defence of those regimes).

They are neutral, you are right, but between US and USSR/Chinese imperialism.

And thankyou for that long, but irrelevant, article.

I suppose you believe, somewhat naively, that the Chinese imperialists are all sweeteness and light, and when thay kill workers in their thousands, they do it very gently.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

G22:


apparently this writer is from an independent news source?

He used to be in the UK-SWP; he is merely employed (like Robert Fisk used to be) by the Independent.

[Ferryman 5]

And thankyou for that long, but irrelevant, article.

You and other leading Trotskyists on this site are deliberately covering up for imperialist provocations, not only in Tibet but also in Tiananmen Square.


To develop my point here is some very relevant PROOF from what you call "that long, but irrelevant, article."
1) Five days before the alleged military assault on Tiananmen Square, according to the documentary, Chai Ling the "Commander-chief" of the students told Philip Cunningham, an American journalist:
"How can I tell them that what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the Government is ready to brazenly butcher the people? I feel that only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes."
Referring to those who were trying to prevent violence, she said,
"They are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the square before the Government is provoked to violence."
Ms. Chai also said she herself was not prepared to stay in the square.
"I'm not going to be destroyed by this Government," she said in the interview. "I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't care if people say I'm selfish."
The speaker is the "leader" of what both conservative and left wing commentators in the west regard as one of the most significant challenges to Communist Party rule in China, ever and you say it is "irrelevant"!

Please tell us what you think is relevant when discussing imperialists and their bloody provocations against their enemies and tell us exactly what you think of this 'blood and honor' speech.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:



You and other leading Trotskyists on this site are deliberately covering up for imperialist provocations, not only in Tibet but also in Tiananmen Square.



Yes, aren't we absolutely awful...! :scared:

Exposing the crimes of the Chinese ruling class is so much worse than killing hundreds of Chinese and Tibetan workers.

I wonder how we sleep at night...:rolleyes:

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:
Yes, aren't we absolutely awful...! :scared:

No, you began your thread as pathetic clowns and you are now attempting to end it as, well, in your own words "awful" clowns. I have no argument with that.

[Ferryman 5]

You and other leading Trotskyists on this site are deliberately covering up for imperialist provocations, not only in Tibet but also in Tiananmen Square.


To develop my point here is some very relevant PROOF from what you call "that long, but irrelevant, article."
1) Five days before the alleged military assault on Tienanmen Square, according to the documentary, Chai Ling the "Commander-chief" of the students told Philip Cunningham, an American journalist:
"How can I tell them that what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the Government is ready to brazenly butcher the people? I feel that only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes."
Referring to those who were trying to prevent violence, she said,
"They are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the square before the Government is provoked to violence."
Ms. Chai also said she herself was not prepared to stay in the square.
"I'm not going to be destroyed by this Government," she said in the interview. "I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't care if people say I'm selfish."
The speaker is the "leader" of what both conservative and left wing commentators in the west regard as one of the most significant challenges to Communist Party rule in China, ever and you say it is "irrelevant"!

Please tell us what you think is relevant when discussing imperialists and their bloody provocations against their enemies and tell us exactly what you think of this 'blood and honor' speech.

I and other serious revolutionaries around this site are waiting for the experienced Trotskists to address this fascist provocation material seriously.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


I and other serious revolutionaries around this site are waiting for the experienced Trotskists to address this fascist provocation material seriously.

And we are waiting for you to stop believing ruling-class propaganda.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



And we are waiting for you to stop believing ruling-class propaganda.

Rosa,

Please, let's leave the vague generalities to the mountebanks. Lets you and me talk specifics.

"How can I tell them that what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the Government is ready to brazenly butcher the people? I feel that only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes."

And this five days before the alleged "massacre".

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Please, let's leave the vague generalities to the mountebanks. Lets you and me talk specifics.

Ok; I condemn US imperialist aggression in Iraq and Chinese imperialist aggression in Tibet. You, on the other hand, defend the latter. Is that specific enough?

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



OK; I condemn US imperialist aggression in Iraq and Chinese imperialist aggression in Tibet. You, on the other hand, defend the latter. Is that specific enough?

I am not messing. I have been reading your other stuff on dialectics and thought it was great. But this is sadly pathetic!!! Just more non-Leninist generalisations.

BE SPESIFIC about my proposition IF IT REALLY MATTRERS TO YOU! Tienanmen was a western inspired fascist provocation , true or false?
This is materialism!!!

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:



But this is sadly pathetic!!!


Then I suggest you try harder.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



Then I suggest you try harder.

Oh I get it now, your are Rosie the clown and I claim my ring-side ticket to the next SWP summer circus to watch all you jerks and frauds tumbling through the bosses hoops to make us laugh. Do you always come on after Mark Steel has shown his arse to his middle class 'Independent' readers Rosie? I wouldn't want to miss you turn. Please tell us more.

[Ferryman 5]

For those of you unfamiliar with the British SWP the evasive banality displayed above by Rosie, is all to familiar to us in the UK, it gives us a good laugh from time to time but it dose have a deadly serious side as well.

As demonstrated above, here, right in front of our eyes, and almost all Trotskyist organisations have, together with the capitalist press, been attempting to cover up the truth about the imperialist provocations in Tibet, Nepal, Burma and China. The objective is to destroy the Chinese state with nationalist and religious programs (Buddhist) in much the same way that Catholicism was initially used in Poland against Russia. Imperialism dose not want an effective anti-imperialist movement within its own boarders. That is why the "anti-war movement" is as it is. Here is the evidence and we should thank Rosie for making it available for all to see.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Oh I get it now, your are Rosie the clown and I claim my ring-side ticket to the next SWP summer circus to watch all you jerks and frauds tumbling through the bosses hoops to make us laugh. Do you always come on after Mark Steel has shown his arse to his middle class 'Independent' readers Rosie? I wouldn't want to miss you turn. Please tell us more.

Marx wrote for papers like the Independent. Want to have a dig at him, too?


For those of you unfamiliar with the British SWP the evasive banality displayed above by Rosie, is all to familiar to us in the UK, it gives us a good laugh from time to time but it dose have a deadly serious side as well.

As demonstrated above, here, right in front of our eyes, and almost all Trotskyist organisations have, together with the capitalist press, been attempting to cover up the truth about the imperialist provocations in Tibet, Nepal, Burma and China. The objective is to destroy the Chinese state with nationalist and religious programs (Buddhist) in much the same way that Catholicism was initially used in Poland against Russia. Imperialism dose not want an effective anti-imperialist movement within its own boarders. That is why the "anti-war movement" is as it is. Here is the evidence and we should thank Rosie for making it available for all to see.

Oh dear, we really have got under the skin of this supporter of Chinese imperial aggression, haven't we?

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



Marx wrote for papers like the Independent. Want to have a dig at him, too?



Oh dear, we really have got under the skin of this supporter of Chinese imperial aggression, haven't we?

Judging by your responses I would have thought Groucho? was your role model. Unlike Mark Steel, Karl Marx was a revolutionary writer who exposed and attacked ruling class intrigue. You're funny though, I'll give you that.

[Ferryman 5]

About Chai Ling and Jenzabar, Inc.


In 1998, Chai Ling founded a software company, Jenzabar (http://www.jenzabar.net/), of which she is President and COO; her husband, Robert Maginn, is the CEO. Jenzabar has received considerable publicity in part because of Chai Ling's role in the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests.
Jenzabar itself, according to The Chronicle of Higher Education, "plays up the past celebrity of its founder, Chai Ling. ...Company press releases, which invariably note that Ms. Chai was 'twice nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize,' breathlessly describe Jenzabar as a tool to 'create another kind of revolution,' fueled by communications technology." (Sept. 3, 1999, "Colleges Get Free Web Pages, but With a Catch: Advertising (http://chronicle.com/weekly/v46/i02/02a04501.htm)")
Chai Ling has also actively cultivated her public image and openly expressed her desire to use her connection to Tiananmen Square to promote her current activities. As stated in the South China Morning Post ("Seizing the Day All for Herself", written on the 10th anniversary of the June 4 massacre):

Ms Chai's publicist has been reminding the world that Ms Chai's job prior to being smuggled out of China to the United States was "leading thousands of students against a communist government more ruthless than Microsoft".

She also suggested that June 4 would be a good opportunity to write about Ms Chai's Internet start-up which runs a site called jenzabar.com.

"Ling is a dynamic personality who has found many similarities between running a revolution and an Internet start up," journalists have been told. "Ling used the techniques and charisma of a true revolutionary to impress the CEOs of Reebok, WebTV/Microsoft and Bain to back Jenzabar."
As a public persona, Chai Ling has attracted attention from multiple media sources. A number of stories published about Jenzabar begin with the saga of the student leader from China who became a successful entrepreneur in America. For example, a Business Week (June 23, 1999) headline reads, "Chai Ling: From Tiananmen Leader to Netrepreneur." Computerworld (May 6, 1999) leads with: "Tiananmen activist turns software entrepreneur." Or as Forbes (May 10, 1999) puts it, "From Starting a Revolution to Starting a Company."

Other articles from the international press (http://tsquare.tv/film/american_dream.html) present different perspectives on Chai Ling and her relationship with the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests. See, for example, American Dream (http://tsquare.tv/film/american_dream.html#ad) (The Boston Globe, Aug. 8, 2003, byline: Steve Bailey), which concludes:

After Tiananmen, Chai detractors said her hero's image did not square with her hardball tactics. Now her critics are saying much the same again, this time about her corporate life. Meanwhile, Chai continues to sell her story of the Tiananmen heroine-turned-American-entrepreneur. "Today, I am living the American dream," Chai told Parade magazine in June.

With Ling Chai, distinguishing the dream from the reality has always been the hardest part of all. Daniel Lyons, in Forbes.com (Great Story, Bad Business (http://tsquare.tv/film/american_dream.html#gs), Forbes.com, Feb. 17, 2003, byline: Daniel Lyons), notes:

Chai Ling would like total control over her biography. In her version, she risks her life leading student protests in Tiananmen Square in 1989, escapes China stowed in a crate and is twice nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Then she moves to America and marries a millionaire venture capitalist who bankrolls her promising internet startup. Alas, the market crashes before the company can go public, and it is unfairly besieged by lawsuits from former executives....

"You're not going to write about that, are you?" Chai says, when asked about the suits. "Do you really have to mention those things?" Chai's seeming naiveté is a little out of character. She has frequently scored points in the press by recalling her glory days as onetime 'commander-in-chief' of rebel students in Beijing.
Lyons may have been referring to an article written about Jenzabar by Chai Ling herself, which is headlined: "Revolution Has Its Price (http://www.jenzabar.net/news/pressroom/baseline.html): In Tiananmen Square, she was a student leader who stood up to tanks. In the U.S., she became a software executive who had to deal with venture capitalists. Guess which one was the tougher opponent." In the article, Chai Ling notes that "the creation of a company is no less stressful than running a hunger strike in Tiananmen Square."
In other contexts, Chai Ling has appeared more reluctant to discuss her role in the 1989 events. In "Anatomy of a Massacre (http://tsquare.tv/film/voice.html#VVCL)" (Village Voice, June 4, 1996), Richard Woodward made multiple attempts to interview Chai Ling for a cover story about The Gate of Heavenly Peace and her role in the student protest movement. "At first she was 'too busy.' When I offered to call at another time, she said with fatigue, 'It's over. I don't want to get involved.'"
Similarly, in his book Bad Elements: Chinese Rebels from Los Angeles to Beijing, Ian Buruma describes a meeting he had with Chai Ling in 1999:

We met for a cappuccino in a nice outdoor café in Cambridge, Massachusetts… Chai handed me a folder with promotional material. It contained references to her career at the Harvard Business School and her "leadership skills" on Tiananmen Square. She spoke to me about her plans to liberate China via the Internet. She joked that she wanted to be rich enough to buy China, so she could "fix it." But although she was not shy to use her celebrity to promote her business, she was oddly reluctant to discuss the past. When I asked her to go over some of the events in 1989, she asked why I wanted to know "about all that old stuff, all that garbage." What was needed was to "find some space and build a beautiful new life." What was wanted was "closure" for Tiananmen. I felt the chilly presence of Henry Ford's ghost hovering over our cappuccinos in that nice outdoor café. From being an icon of history, Chai had moved into a world where all history is bunk.

[Ian Buruma, Bad Elements: Chinese Rebels from Los Angeles to Beijing (New York: Random House, 2001), pp. 9-10.]
Because of her status as a public figure, future media coverage will continue to throw light on Chai Ling for those who are interested in following her story.

[Wanted Man]

You should be a comedian! :glare:
I think I would make a fairly decent one. But luckily, we can still take Mark Steel, the disillusioned ex-SWP member, seriously when it comes to these 'brave monks'. It must be easy to be a (former) cliffite. Once in a while, you even get to write for the bourgeois press to denounce 'the communist party paper', and that's just about all the work you have to do. The price of selling out is a pretty low one to pay, then.

[Hit The North]

Tienanmen was a western inspired fascist provocation , true or false?


You say you want to talk specifics. What was specifically imperialist about the demands of the Tienanmen protesters? What was specifically fascist about them?

Or are you just blowing it out of your Maoist fundament?


This is materialism!!!What is? The view you're pedalling that all internal dissent from Tienanmen to the current protests in Tibet is the work of foreign, imperialist agent provocateurs rather than the very real contradictions within Chinese society?

Why, then your version of materialism is very close to conspiracy theory, isn't it?

Oh, and by the way, the fact, or otherwise, that one of the leaders of the June 4th protests has turned out to be a bit disreputable in no way invalidates that movement any more than the fact, or otherwise, that Mao was a borderline pedophile invalidates the Chinese revolution.

You should take a leaf from your own book and talk politics instead of engaging in personality assassination.

[Ferryman 5]

I think I would make a fairly decent one. But luckily, we can still take Mark Steel, the disillusioned ex-SWP member, seriously when it comes to these 'brave monks'. It must be easy to be a (former) cliffite. Once in a while, you even get to write for the bourgeois press to denounce 'the communist party paper', and that's just about all the work you have to do. The price of selling out is a pretty low one to pay, then.

Yes come to think of it, Tony Cliff the founder of the British SWP was a clown himself, really! His speeches were peppered with patronising anti-theory gags like: "The best way to use Das Capital is to hitting boss over the head with it." Boom! Boom! I actually saw him do this routine. It wasn't funny the first time.

Edit: The accent is the best I could do, but it is near enough.

[Ferryman 5]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8442
Respected columnist and former senior Indian Intelligence officer, B Raman, commented on March 21 that "on the basis of available evidence, it was possible to assess with a reasonable measure of conviction" that the initial uprising in Lhasa on March 14 "had been pre-planned and well orchestrated".
Could there be a factual basis to the suggestion that the main beneficiaries to the death and destruction sweeping Tibet are in Washington? History would suggest that this is a distinct possibility.

[Wanted Man]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8442
Respected columnist and former senior Indian Intelligence officer, B Raman, commented on March 21 that "on the basis of available evidence, it was possible to assess with a reasonable measure of conviction" that the initial uprising in Lhasa on March 14 "had been pre-planned and well orchestrated".
Could there be a factual basis to the suggestion that the main beneficiaries to the death and destruction sweeping Tibet are in Washington? History would suggest that this is a distinct possibility.
But, but... Unarmed monks! Heroes! Crushed by tanks! Humanity! Communist propaganda!

[Random Precision]

Yes come to think of it, Tony Cliff the founder of the British SWP was a clown himself, really! His speeches were peppered with patronising anti-theory gags like: "The best way to use Das Capital is to hitting boss over the head with it." Boom! Boom! I actually saw him do this routine. It wasn't funny the first time.

Edit: The accent is the best I could do, but it is near enough.

So now you're making fun of revolutionaries for their ethnicity, hm? I remember that in the seventies, London Nazis would regularly write the oh-so-subtle slogan "TONY CLIFF IS A JEW FROM PALESTINE" on walls with spraypaint. That wasn't funny either.

[Zurdito]

So now you're making fun of revolutionaries for their ethnicity, hm? I remember that in the seventies, London Nazis would regularly write the oh-so-subtle slogan "TONY CLIFF IS A JEW FROM PALESTINE" on walls with spraypaint. That wasn't funny either.

hmmm I think Ferryman is completely wrong on this thread, but what did that post have to do with Tony Cliffe's ethnicity?

Tony Cliff did in fact make horrible, patronising, anti-theory jokes like that all the time.

One of his favourites was: "when you're fighting on the street, you need a gun, not a blueprint of a gun".

Yes Tony: but if you don't have a gun, a blueprint is actually a good place to start. ;)

[Ferryman 5]

But, but... Unarmed monks! Heroes! Crushed by tanks! Humanity! Communist propaganda!

I know but clowns will be ...well clowns.


Ladies an gentelmen, its that Rosie's mentor Tooooooooony Cliff.http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/photo/cliff.jpg

[Random Precision]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8442
Respected columnist and former senior Indian Intelligence officer, B Raman, commented on March 21 that "on the basis of available evidence, it was possible to assess with a reasonable measure of conviction" that the initial uprising in Lhasa on March 14 "had been pre-planned and well orchestrated".
Could there be a factual basis to the suggestion that the main beneficiaries to the death and destruction sweeping Tibet are in Washington? History would suggest that this is a distinct possibility.

I read the article. It was along the lines that, "the CIA has done shit like this in the past, and it probably has the capability to do it again, so it is involved in the uprisings in Tibet, but there can't be any evidence of this because the CIA will wipe out any evidence of its involvement." What a ridiculously unscientific claim.

Ferryman, may I ask what organization you're affiliated with? Because most of us here on RevLeft won't respond too well to the suggestion that Tian An Men Square was a CIA provocation.

[Random Precision]

hmmm I think Ferryman is completely wrong on this thread, but what did that post have to do with Tony Cliffe's ethnicity?

Tony Cliff did in fact make horrible, patronising, anti-theory jokes like that all the time.

One of his favourites was: "when you're fighting on the street, you need a gun, not a blueprint of a gun".

Yes Tony: but if you don't have a gun, a blueprint is actually a good place to start. ;)

He was making fun of Cliff's "accent".

[Ferryman 5]

So now you're making fun of revolutionaries for their ethnicity, hm? I remember that in the seventies, London Nazis would regularly write the oh-so-subtle slogan "TONY CLIFF IS A JEW FROM PALESTINE" on walls with spraypaint. That wasn't funny either.

Good try Random but you are way of the mark and you know it.

Tony Cliff traded on his ethnicity, accent and looks to get a laugh from his ordinances. BTW I was once a member of his IS group and fought the Nazis in London and they were using more than spray paint . His comedy was used as a cover for his anti-communism in just the same way Rosie the clown uses hers,...not very effectively.

[Random Precision]

I think I would make a fairly decent one. But luckily, we can still take Mark Steel, the disillusioned ex-SWP member, seriously when it comes to these 'brave monks'. It must be easy to be a (former) cliffite. Once in a while, you even get to write for the bourgeois press to denounce 'the communist party paper', and that's just about all the work you have to do. The price of selling out is a pretty low one to pay, then.

So, you think the CCP is really communist, then?

Therein lies the rub, I suppose.

[Trenches Full of Poets]

Please, please, please tell me that this is a joke.

If not, it is the most poorly written, ignorant and sensationalist piece ever.

Sensationalist because it portrays the Chinese government as being a community of crackheaded warmongers, which they aren't.

Poorly written because it uses obviously sarcastic rhetoric, which a news article should not.

And ignorant because it ignores many facts surrounding the uprising. For one, the truth is that in Lhasa the only thing that really happening is that rocks and molotovs are being thrown at Chinese Shops (*cough*Kristallnacht *cough*), and there isn't much intelligent protest and organized revolution going on. Also, yes, the Dalai Lama does claim to support human rights, etc, and at the same time he comes from a line of monks who have supported theocracy and feudal economy.

[Ferryman 5]

I read the article. It was along the lines that, "the CIA has done shit like this in the past, and it probably has the capability to do it again, so it is involved in the uprisings in Tibet, but there can't be any evidence of this because the CIA will wipe out any evidence of its involvement." What a ridiculously unscientific claim.

Ferryman, may I ask what organization you're affiliated with? Because most of us here on RevLeft won't respond too well to the suggestion that Tian An Men Square was a CIA provocation.

Oh good to see someone it getting serious at last. I can tell that because of the inference about racism.

Consider this. The crowds in Beijing had been building for six weeks. The city was busting at the seems with so called western 'journalists', 'academics', and 'business people' all equipped with the latest cameras and recording equipment.

Now were are the photos of the thousands of dead that were supposedly burned or ferried out of the square, either by truck or helicopters?

All that technology in the hands of every foreign agent it was possible to infiltrate into the city and not one single photo of the "piles of corpses".

There was plenty of fighting around the square where the military and the police were beaten and killed by the mobs, but no "massacre."

I understand that to people who have swallowed this "massacre" story as a fact, (as you say people on Revleft among others) I must sound like some kind of holocaust denier, which I am emphatically not.

You have been duped on this one and are about to be on Tibet if the Capitalist press Left press have their way. But many of you are happy to be duped because of your real anti-communist politics. That's what I think.

[Ferryman 5]

Please, please, please tell me that this is a joke.

If not, it is the most poorly written, ignorant and sensationalist piece ever.

Sensationalist because it portrays the Chinese government as being a community of crackheaded warmongers, which they aren't.

Poorly written because it uses obviously sarcastic rhetoric, which a news article should not.

And ignorant because it ignores many facts surrounding the uprising. For one, the truth is that in Lhasa the only thing that really happening is that rocks and molotovs are being thrown at Chinese Shops (*cough*Kristallnacht *cough*), and there isn't much intelligent protest and organized revolution going on. Also, yes, the Dalai Lama does claim to support human rights, etc, and at the same time he comes from a line of monks who have supported theocracy and feudal economy.

This well coordinated rioting which Mark Steel tries to comically pass of as a bit of a laugh resulted in the burning to death of at the very least four young and genuinely "Innocent" workers in a shop.

Another good day's work for the theocratic fascists and their US backers.

[Trenches Full of Poets]

This well coordinated rioting which Mark Steel tries to comically pass of as a bit of a laugh resulted in the burning to death of at the very least four young and genuinely "Innocent" workers in a shop.

Another good day's work for the theocratic fascists and their US backers.

I don't think I get your point.

[Ferryman 5]

I don't think I get your point.

I am only driving home the point that much of the imperialist propaganda that surrounds their violent provocations against China could not be achieved without the active and conscious collaboration of much of the anti-communist left and it is not to late for anyone who wants to understand these connections.

Tibet & CIA connections (http://darwiniana.com/2008/03/27/tibet-cia-connections/)
http://darwiniana.com/2008/03/27/tibet-cia-connections/

Conclusion
This article has demonstrated the close ties that exist between the
Dalai Lama’s non-violent campaign for Tibetan independence and U.S.
foreign policy elites who are actively supporting Tibetan causes
through the NED. This finding is particularly worrying given the high
international media profile of many of the groups exposed in this
article, especially when it is remembered that the NED’s activities
are intimately linked with those of the CIA. This funding issue is
clearly problematic for Tibetan (or foreign) activists campaigning for
Tibetan freedom, as the overwhelmingly anti-democratic nature of the
NED can only weaken the legitimacy of the claims of any group
associated with the NED. In this regard it seems only fitting that
progressive activists truly concerned with promoting freedom and
democracy in Tibet should first and foremost cast a critical eye over
the antidemocratic funders of many of the Tibetan groups identified in
this study. Only then will they be able to reappraise the
sustainability of their work in the light of the NED’s controversial
background. Once this step has been taken, perhaps progressive
solutions for restoring democratic governance to Tibet can be
generated by concerned activists, so that Tibetan people wanting to
reclaim their homeland will able to be more sure that they are
bringing democracy home to Tibet, not polyarchy.
Michael Barker is a doctoral candidate at Griffith University,
Australia. He can be reached at [email protected]

[Ferryman 5]

hmmm I think Ferryman is completely wrong on this thread, ...

That's fine, but will someone get down to the nitty gritty and say why I am wrong.

If you aren't alerted and concerned by the leader of the Tiananmen students saying she wanted to see blood in the square FIVE DAYS BEFORE THE TROOPS MOVED IN, then, as the saying goes, you must be stupid or corrupt. Please your selves.

As for cackling Rosie who started this thread, she has almost single handedly done more to discredit Trotskyism and the SWP in particular than any revisionist Stalinist could have made up. fucking funny and sad at the same time.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman, still frothing at the mouth:



Another good day's work for the theocratic fascists and their US backers.

You'll be telling us that Lenin was in the pay of the Kaiser, next.:rolleyes:

[Wanted Man]

Rosa, becoming more demented with every post:


You'll be telling us that Lenin was in the pay of the Kaiser, next.:rolleyes:
So the monks are at the same level of Lenin? Well, that explains Rosa's glorification of them. The revolution is happening in Tibet right now!

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman, still frothing at the mouth:



You'll be telling us that Lenin was in the pay of the Kaiser, next.:rolleyes:

Ye good one Rosie, y want another drink gall?

[Ferryman 5]

Commrades,
It is one thing to take the piss out of other cranky comrades, but it is another thing entirely to abuse people who are having problems. Am I right in thinking (feeling) that we have to be sensitive here?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

De B:



So the monks are at the same level of Lenin? Well, that explains Rosa's glorification of them. The revolution is happening in Tibet right now!


Not according to me, but according to the ideas that seem to have colonised yours and Ferryman's thinking.

Ferryman, now becoming incoherent:


Ye good one Rosie, y want another drink gall?

No, a workers' revolution in China.

Make that a double -- one in N Korea, too, please...

[Ferryman 5]

De B:



Not according to me, but according to the ideas that seem to have colonised yours and Ferryman's thinking.

Ferryman, now becoming incoherent:



No, a workers' revolution in China.

Make that a double -- one in N Korea, too, please...

Dream on cackling Rosie. An good night.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman, getting dozey:


Dream on cackling Rosie. An good night.

According to Marx, it's not a dream.

You should read him sometime.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman, getting dozey:



According to Marx, it's not a dream.

You should read him sometime.

Even if you read Marx none stop and I had never read a word I would still be able to recognise that the Mark Steel's article, which you posted, was nothing but a crock of reactionary crap.

If I had take the advice of Tony Cliff your mentor, I would not have read any of Marx's Capital, but instead, I would have "hit the boss over the head with it because it is so heavy." -as Cliff recommended.

Tony Cliff, Mark Steel you and the rest of the SWP tragic clowns represent nothing but an nasty opportunist streak imported into the British working class by a cynical and thoroughly pessimistic middle class, trapped between the two genuinely revolutionary classes., bourgeoisie and proletariat.

But I will give you one more chance. Which work of Marx should I read in relation to this thread exactly Rosie?

[Wanted Man]

Rosa, with a remarkable piece of "dialectical" logic:


Not according to me, but according to the ideas that seem to have colonised yours and Ferryman's thinking.
Your opinions are actually mine? It looks like you've been infected by what you're trying to cure.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

De Baron:


Your opinions are actually mine? It looks like you've been infected by what you're trying to cure.


It looks like the Hermetic virus has nuked your brain cells, for I was not saying this -- just that it is a logical consequence of views you (plural) hold.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:

Even if you read Marx none stop and I had never read a word I would still be able to recognise that the Mark Steel's article

Yes, I suspected you had limited powers of comprehension.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman, getting dozey:



According to Marx, it's not a dream.

You should read him sometime.
Well this would be an improvement on reading Mark Steel or Rosie's 'Socialist Worker' which report the religious and nationalist riots in Tibet in glowing terms.

But Rosie still has not told us which work of Marx she wants us to read in connection with this thread or the Tibet riots generally.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Well this would be an improvement on reading Mark Steel or Rosie's 'Socialist Worker'

I agree; that's why you need Marx's clarity of vision. It might help you see the mass murderers in Beijing for what they are: a brutal ruling class, dictating over the proletariat.


But Rosie still has not told us which work of Marx she wants us to read in connection with this thread or the Tibet riots generally.

The Communist Manifesto will do, for starters.

There is a spectre haunting the ruling class of China: the Tibetan and Chinese workers, etc., etc.

Give it a go; you never know -- you might get to like Marxism...

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



I agree; that's why you need Marx's clarity of vision. It might help you see the mass murderers in Beijing for what they are: a brutal ruling class, dictating over the proletariat.



The Communist Manifesto will do, for starters.

There is a spectre haunting the ruling class of China: the Tibetan and Chinese workers, etc., etc.

Give it a go; you never know -- you might get to like Marxism...

Just for the record, it was you who recommended Mark Steel. It is you who sponsors the reformist 'Socialist Worker' so where is your Marxist "clarity of vision".

You say there were mass murders in Beijing but you have no evidence only capitalist lying propagandad which you cant stand up but only too are keen to spread about, because that is the role of Trotskyism.
Then you miss quote Marx above by saying "A specter is haunting the ruling class..." when what Marx and Engels actually said was - "A specter is haunting Europe-the specter of communism."

So please tell us where the "sector of communism" is present in the religious, nationalist imperialist sponsored rioting either in Tibet or Beijing
or give us more comedy sketches so wee can have another laugh.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Just for the record, it was you who recommended Mark Steel.

No, I merely said some comrades might like it -- but only those who hate oppression, and thus not you.


It is you who sponsors the reformist 'Socialist Worker' so where is your Marxist "clarity of vision".

Where do I 'sponsor' this unknown paper you mentioned?

I certainly read the revolutionary 'Socialist Worker'.

You must have been reading (but, I hesitate to use that word in your case) the wrong paper.


You say there were mass murders in Beijing but you have no evidence only capitalist lying propagandad which you cant stand up but only too are keen to spread about, because that is the role of Trotskyism.

You see, I thought that rumours that you couldn't read were somewhat exaggerated, but there you go proving them true.

Re-read (or get someone to help you read) what I said; it was not as you allege.


Then you miss quote Marx above by saying "A specter is haunting the ruling class..." when what Marx and Engels actually said was - "A specter is haunting Europe-the specter of communism."

Yes, since his day, the spectre has widened his/her/its sphere of activity.

Or, do you suppose the class stuggle is only true of Europe?

I suspect you do.


So please tell us where the "sector of communism" is present in the religious, nationalist imperialist sponsored rioting either in Tibet or Beijing
or give us more comedy sketches so wee can have another laugh.

The same place it was in Thomas Munster's religious rebellion.

You should read Engels on this -- or, get someone to do the cartoon and colouring-in version just for you...

[Ferryman 5]

You post a stupid silly article by Mark Steel and now attempt to distance yourself from both the contents and the author. You tell us to read Marx and misquote him. You fail to offer any evidence of mass murders either in China or Tibet, but you persist in making the lying accusations. Now as another diversion from your pro-imperialist politics, you tell us to read the idealist priest Thomas Munster. What’s next on your recommended reading list, Jesus and Buddha? I personally have no objections as long as you make an effort at quoting them correctly, ok? BTW I would never swap my literacy problems for your academic fraudulence, although you do get more laughs, and well deserved they are.

[Ferryman 5]

How "civil" and patient the materialist Chinese government are, with the backward superstitious feudal nonsence in Tibet.

[Intelligitimate]

Fuck the Cliffite Rosa, Mark Steel, and the God-King Tenzin. You're a reactionary piece of human garbage.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Intelligitimate:


Fuck the Cliffite Rosa, Mark Steel, and the God-King Tenzin. You're a reactionary piece of human garbage.

Looks like you are angling for another suspension.

Any more abusive posts like this will be deleted.

---------------------------

Ferryman:


You post a stupid silly article by Mark Steel and now attempt to distance yourself from both the contents and the author. You tell us to read Marx and misquote him. You fail to offer any evidence of mass murders either in China or Tibet, but you persist in making the lying accusations. Now as another diversion from your pro-imperialist politics, you tell us to read the idealist priest Thomas Munster. What’s next on your recommended reading list, Jesus and Buddha? I personally have no objections as long as you make an effort at quoting them correctly, ok? BTW I would never swap my literacy problems for your academic fraudulence, although you do get more laughs, and well deserved they are.

1) I said you should read Engels on Thomas Munster -- but then, as we now know you have difficulty reading even my posts, you might not be able to manage that.

2) I am against all forms of imperialism and oppression, you are against only some. That is why you did not like Mark's article. It exposed your hypocrisy.


How "civil" and patient the materialist Chinese government are

I agree -- mass murder is so civil and patient...:rolleyes:

[Ferryman 5]

Intelligitimate:



Looks like you are angling for another suspension.

Any more abusive posts like this will be deleted.

---------------------------

Ferryman:



1) I said you should read Engels on Thomas Munster -- but then, as we now know you have difficulty reading even my posts, you might not be able to manage that.

2) I am against all forms of imperialism and oppression, you are against only some. That is why you did not like Mark's article. It exposed your hypocrisy.



I agree -- mass murder is so civil and patient...:rolleyes:

1) You can now add pedantry to your collection of comical counter-revolutionary eccenticities. Oh yes and 2) anti-Leninism "against all forms of imperialism and oppression."? I have been wasting my time talking to a complete ignoramus. I'll give you six months to take your own medicine and read some Lenin, lots of it and any of it.

[Ferryman 5]

1) You can now add pedantry to your collection of comical counter-revolutionary eccenticities. Oh yes and 2) anti-Leninism "against all forms of imperialism and oppression." I have been wasting my time talking to a complete ignoramus. I'll give you six months to take your own medicine and read some Lenin, lots of it and any of it.

Here is a short list for you to be getting on with:

'Against Revisionism, in Defence of Marxism'
'The collaps of the Second International'
'State and Revolution'
'What Is To Be Done?'
'Problems of Building Socialism and Communism in the USSR'

We can speak again when you have read these.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


1) You can now add pedantry to your collection of comical counter-revolutionary eccenticities. Oh yes and 2) anti-Leninism "against all forms of imperialism and oppression." I'll give you six months to take your own medicine and read some Lenin, lots of it and any of it.

Ah, he who answers alleged pedantry with some of his own.

And thanks for the list, but I have been a Leninist now for over 25 years, and have read the said works, many times -- and in them I see a ringing condemnation of your anti-Marxist views.


We can speak again when you have read these.

And what makes you think I want to 'speak' with a supporter of mass murder and oppression?


I have been wasting my time talking to a complete ignoramus.

No doubt you have been talking to yourself again.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman:



Ah, he who answers alleged pedantry with some of his own.

And thanks for the list, but I have been a Leninist now for over 25 years, and have read the said works, many times -- and in them I see a ringing condemnation of your anti-Marxist views.



And what makes you think I want to 'speak' with a supporter of mass murder and oppression?



No doubt you have been talking to yourself again.


Can't you swap names with 'Tragic Clown'?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman:


Can't you swap names with 'Tragic Clown'?

Yes, if you swap yours with 'George W Bush'.

[Ferryman 5]

Intelligitimate:



Looks like you are angling for another suspension.

Any more abusive posts like this will be deleted.




Typical Trotskyist bureaucrat in action. If you think I am exaggerating just see what Lenin actually said about Trotsky's fictionalising burocratismo.

[email protected] ([email protected])




V. I. Lenin


ONCE AGAIN ON THE TRADE UNIONS,

THE CURRENT SITUATION AND THE
MISTAKES OF TROTSKY AND BUHKARIN



Extract


"Workers' democracy is free from fetishes", Comrade Trotsky writes in his theses, which are the "fruit of collective work". "Its sole consideration is the revolutionary interest" (thesis 23).
Comrade Trotsky 's theses have landed him in a mess. That part of them which is correct is not new and, what is more, turns against him. That which is new is all wrong.
I have written out Comrade Trotsky's correct propositions. They turn against him not only on the point in thesis 23 (Glavpolitput) but on the others as well.
Under the rules of formal democracy, Trotsky had a right to come out with a factional platform even against the whole of the Central Committee. That is indisputable. What is also indisputable is that the Central Committee had endorsed this formal right by its decision on freedom of discussion adopted on December 24, 1920. Bukharin, the buffer, recognises this formal right for Trotsky, but not for the Petrograd organisation, probably because on December 30, 1920, he talked himself into "the sacred slogan of workers ' democracy" (verbatim report, p. 45). . . .
Well, and what about the revolutionary interest?
Will any serious-minded person who is not blinded by the factional egotism of Tsektran" or of the "buffer" faction, will anyone in his right mind say that such a pronouncement on the trade union issue by such a prominent leader as Trotsky does promote the revolutionary interest ?
Can it be denied that, even if Trotsky's "new tasks and methods" were as sound as they are in fact unsound (of which later), his very approach would be damaging to himself, the Party, the trade union movement, the training of millions of trade union members and the Republic?
It looks as if the kind Bukharin and his group call them selves a "buffer" because they have firmly decided not to think about the obligations this title imposes upon them.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ok, post deleted.

Referred to the CC for disciplinary action.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ferryman, I do not know why you are spamming this thread with irrelevant material.

Any more will be deleted.

[Ferryman 5]

Ok, post deleted.

Referred to the CC for disciplinary action.

Rosie the comic looser, ha! You really are just sad bureaucratic trash. Its great that you have exposed your Trotskyist pencil monitor mentality, using your Patti power to silence opposition. I think I could report you to "the management" for your abuse of me because of my literacy disabilities, but they are probably all your mates so what is the point. On the other hand they may want to have a crack at an embarrassment like you.

The message is, if you are dyslexic or otherwise not up to Rosie's academic standard you must not argue with Rosie or you will be abused and sanctioned. Is this revolutionary? Revolutionary? I've shit better.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Look, you will be treated just like Intelligitimate if you persist. Persistent abusers are suspended here, or banned.

Is that what you want?

[Ferryman 5]

Rosa Lichtenstein (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?find=lastposter&t=74271) is a “moderator” which means she will threaten to shut you out of this site if you persist in arguing with here. That is why she is able to talk nonsense without sanction. The best thing is to pretend that she is of some consequence and talk round her.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I warned you not to resort to abuse and spamming.

You ignored me, and now all you can do is moan.

Take it on the chin like a man, and stop bleating.

[Marsella]

I warned you not to resort to abuse and spamming.

You ignored me, and now all you can do is moan.

Take it on the chin like a man, and stop bleating.

Sexisms! :ohmy:

[Ferryman 5]

I warned you not to resort to abuse and spamming.

You ignored me, and now all you can do is moan.

Take it on the chin like a man, and stop bleating.

Is anyone on this site in control of the prejudiced and arbitrary interventions of the this idiot?

Rosie, you must be right because you can shut us down any time you lose an argument. That is Trotsky-ism.

[Wanted Man]

Is anyone on this site in control of the prejudiced and arbitrary interventions of the this idiot?

Rosie, you must be right because you can shut us down any time you lose an argument. That is Trotsky-ism.
Nah, it's not so bad. Just let the angry old lady shoot her rifle into the air for a while. She'll never really get any kids off her lawn, don't worry about it.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman, I do not know why you are spamming this thread with irrelevant material.

Any more will be deleted.

Saying that quotes from Lenin against Trosky are "irrelevant" is a lying stunt like all Trotskyist lying stunts. The quotes are relevant, because they exemplify how the Trotskyist 'political position' is anti-Leninist. Trotskyism has been in opposition to Leninism since 1903. The quotes demonstrate how Trotskyism is a counter revolutionary tendency that has sneaked into the communist movement. Many of the youth know little or nothing of this history because hacks like Rosie keep telling them it is "irrelevant" and threatening anyone who exposes them. The true bureaucratic impulse of the middle class.

[Invader Zim]

Ferryman, could you do us all a favour and cease spamming the board with this:

"Rosa Lichtenstein is a “moderator” which means she will threaten to shut you out of this site if you persist in arguing with here. That is why she is able to talk nonsense without sanction. The best thing is to pretend that she is of some consequence and talk round her."

While you may have your opinions on Rosa, the rest of us don't need them to be inflicted upon us in multiple threads. Indeed, you actively prove her point with that kind of crap.

[Ferryman 5]

Ferryman, could you do us all a favour and cease spamming the board with this:

"Rosa Lichtenstein is a “moderator” which means she will threaten to shut you out of this site if you persist in arguing with here. That is why she is able to talk nonsense without sanction. The best thing is to pretend that she is of some consequence and talk round her."

While you may have your opinions on Rosa, the rest of us don't need them to be inflicted upon us in multiple threads. Indeed, you actively prove her point with that kind of crap.

Yes of course, your are quite right. I was simply getting it in before the quivering bureaucracy shut me down.

My point is that behind much of the clowning, around this brand of left politics which Mark Steel represents, there is some militant anti-communism and any attempt to expos it will be met with apolitical personal attacks, provocations, lies and sanctions before blaming the communists here for standing up to bureaucratic bullying. In microcosm, and with obviously less consequence, it is exactly what is happening around the world with all anti-imperialist struggles whether they are communists or not. The counter revolutionary MDC in Zimbabwe is a good example. But I suspect protocol requires another thread for that.

[RNK]

Yes, naturally, through all the liberal and conservative and ultra-right wing media circles, there's a massive amount of anti-communist rhetoric floating around, as it does anytime China does something questionable.

I don't really find anything wrong with the article. Mark Steel is in the SWP, isn't he? Or was, according to his Wiki page. That would technically, if not practically, make him a communist.

Ferryman, your "loyalties" are misplaced. The Chinese government is not worthy of defense. It itself is more anti-communist as any piece of media could ever be. While I understand your criticism of the Tibet situation I do not feel your criticism of the Tienanmen protesters is warrented, nor your defense of the CCP.

[Zurdito]

Stupid
Lazy
Useless
Trot

hmm you should really be banned for a long time for that comment in fact I'm amazed you haven't been banned yet, I reported it. What a chauvinistic stalinist, seriously.

in what sense are you people even "left-wing" - you have right wing social attitudes, for exmaple you go round calling women the above, and now you even defend capitalist dictatorships like China who make super profits for imperialism at the expense of their oppressed population.

[Hit The North]

Z, I've also complained about this loathsome character's post. His banning is in the pipeline in the cc.

[Zurdito]

Z, I've also complained about this loathsome character's post. His banning is in the pipeline in the cc.

ok, cool. :)

[Intelligitimate]

They should rename this site the Reactionary Pseudo-Left.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The first thing that needs to be established is that this writer is supporting the Tibetan protesters and therefore the Dalai Lama and therefore United States imperialism. Whether China has committed human rights crimes is a different question altogether.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dr R, thanks for that, but please do not imagine for one second these closed-minded worshippers of Stalinised power are either listening or are amenable to reason.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

F-man:


Is anyone on this site in control of the prejudiced and arbitrary interventions of the this idiot?

Rosie, you must be right because you can shut us down any time you lose an argument. That is Trotsky-ism.

Yes, aren't I awful?:ohmy:

So much worse that killing workers in their thousands, as those you worship have done.:rolleyes:

------------------------------------------------

I'm a tiger:



Sexisms!

Please do not post spam.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

hmm you should really be banned for a long time for that comment in fact I'm amazed you haven't been banned yet, I reported it. What a chauvinistic stalinist, seriously.

in what sense are you people even "left-wing" - you have right wing social attitudes, for exmaple you go round calling women the above, and now you even defend capitalist dictatorships like China who make super profits for imperialism at the expense of their oppressed population.

Women aren't allowed to be called stupid, useless, and lazy?

[Hit The North]

Women aren't allowed to be called stupid, useless, and lazy?

It has obviously escaped your notice that Ferryman 5 was calling Rosa a "Slut":


Originally Posted by Ferryman 5 http://img.revleft.com/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1114467#post1114467)
Stupid
Lazy
Useless
Trot
Thankfully, his days of hurling abuse and avoiding political argument on this forum are over.

[Intelligitimate]

Your concern is fake.