Israel-Palestine [Archive]

Dean

27th March 2008, 02:11

I was debating on another forum, and this leftist debated that all Israeli's should die.

Not that they should make concessions, or that peace is the main goal.

But that he supports terrorists in trying to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child.

Now, that's never going to happen, ie the Palestinians couldn't win an all-out battle with Israelis if it was Cinco de Mayo. But that logic, nor the humane concepts Leftists claim to be the guardians of, distracted him from this calls.

What are your thoughts on the conflict, and the overall view of your brand of Leftist thought?
I support de-escalation, removal of legal and physical barriers between Israelis and Palestinians, and immediate aid to all those who have suffered as a result of Israeli theft and strangulation.

Israel is there. It is a fact of life and it isn't going anywhere. In the past they haven't acted quite correctly towards the Palestinians, they should have treated them with more respect and should have settled the problem a long time ago.
Israel cannot exist as it is without oppressing the palestinians. It would have to get a political overhaul. which would indicate a secular, democratic state, for the oppression to end in any meaningful sense.

It's going to be difficult getting a first rate peace agreememt off the ground at this stage. Gaza is a sewer. It is a third rate backword place that should have not been allowed to go off on its own without substantial build up first. I haven't been there since it's independance, but I was there about five years ago and it was dreadful. It needs piles of money to get on it's feet and with Hammas in charge they most certainly won't get it. The people of Gaza have to swollow their pride and get a government that America and the rest of the world will be willing to deal with before anything productive can happen.
Yes, Gaza is a sewer. Literally. Israel's theft of electricity (which was already bought by the EU) resulted in an entire town being flooded with feces and urine because the sanitation system could not be powered. Hamas can't be blamed for this, only Israeli embargos - and I really don't blame the Palestinians for voting for the less suppressive, more critical groups in Palestine. If my people get bombed every day by a colonial power, I won't be looking for moderates and fascists like those in Fatah.

Don't forget one of the main problems of the conflict was Arafat who's stock in trade was making sure that no agreement took place so the Israeli's weren't completely to blame.
Arafat genuinely tried to maek a positive peace agreement in his time. Israel consistantly pushed borders, expanded its settlements, demanded recognition of a state without stated borders, bombed, illegally imprisoned civilians, and levied economic sanctions agaisnt the people of palestine. The US media paints Arafat as a hard-liner, but hes not. He simply demanded basic rights for Palestinians, as they always have fought for, and the Israeli gov't shat on them - as has also always been the case.

In the end as far as the East Bank goes, Abbas is going to make some sort of a half assed deal with Olmert--the sooner the better--and then MAYBE some healing can take place.
Abbas is too weak. Israel will probably assasinate him because he cannot control the Palestinian territories. Historically, those palestinian leaders who could squash rebellion and control the major NGOs critical of Israel have lasted longest. Abbas has shown himself a miserable failure as an ally of Israel, because he cannot control the people. The mossad will likely terminate him, or otherwise hasten his deterioration - he is useless to them.

As far as my ideology goes, I agree with Chumbawamba:

Chumbawamba - Word Bomber

Strap these words
Around your waist
Open arms
A last embrace
Go make your peace
Commonplace
Take the train
A last goodbye
Throw your rhymes
At passers-by
‘One Love’
On your hi-fi

Words
Words is all
Around the underground
And ticket halls
Declare your peace
Wall to wall
Back in Leeds
The news we heard
No-one killed
And no-one hurt
Wish all the young men
Used only words
Words
Words is all
Around the underground
And ticket halls
Declare your peace
Wall to wall.

When the names of the four young men from leeds who murdered 52 people in London in July 2005 were revealed, a friend of ours talked of how she’d been at high school with one of the boys, Shehzad Tanweer, who worked in his mum & dad’s fish & chip shop. That he’d been a “lovely young lad.” In his taped message recorded before the bombing, Shehzad said, “What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks which will intensify and continue until you pull all your troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Until you stop all financial and military support to the US and Israel and until you release all Muslim prisoners from Belmarsh and your other concentration camps. And know that if you fail to comply with this then know that this war will never stop.”
But of course, the repeated ‘you’ in this statement – the ‘you’ that sit in parliament advocating war – weren’t on the buses and tube trains that morning. We too want to stop these wars, but with words, not bombs.

Sky

27th March 2008, 02:28

Faux Real

27th March 2008, 02:57

I don't have a "brand" or "leftist thought" on this issue. It's humane to want to see the end of institutional racism and systematic ethnic cleansing based on religion and race. There should be one 'democratic republican' Palestinian state as long as we live in a capitalist world. Zionism has proven to be an insurmountable failure and it will not succeed, unless the state resorts to further and a far more overt form of ethnic cleansing within Israel of the Palestinian Israelis (who live within its borders and have an extremely larger birth rate to that of Israelis but live in shanties).

Bar mass slaughtering, Arabs in Israel will outnumber Israelis sometime in the future regardless of the political decisions. Israel needs to immediately (keep dreaming) annex the Palestinian territories to form a single unitary government free of ethnic or religious supremacy or immediately (keep dreaming) withdraw to the '67 borders as well as demolish the illegal walls and hand over the illegal settlements to Palestine. Anything else will lead to further unnecessary deaths- mostly on the Palestinian side, as everyone knows...

All this talk about peace is meaningless to me. There is an enslaved, submissive peace like what was experienced by african slaves, and there is a just peace where all sides are on equal footing. Right now, peace is out of the question as long as Israel carries out bombings on civilians and openly calls for the assassination of Gazas elected officials. "Peace" has always lied within the hands of Israel ever since Camp David but they've refused to sign anything that would hinder their ambitions of colonizing further into the West Bank. This pressure to the Israeli government must be applied by Israelis in collusion with Palestinians through worker's solidarity. However, seeing how Israeli citizens live under bizarre amounts of affluence being the richest country per (Jewish) citizen thanks to US "internationalist socialism" (I kid :p, commitment to one country isn't internationalism!) I can't, unfortunately, see intense pressure on the Knesset to merge with Palestine/withdraw anytime soon.

Dros

27th March 2008, 03:15

Lector Malibu

27th March 2008, 04:48

Phalanx

27th March 2008, 05:38

Working people worldwide strive for nothing less than the abolition of ''Israel'' and the formation of a unified, socialist Palestine complete with the return of the millions of Palestinian refugees with the simultaneous repatriation of Russian "Jews" back where they came from. The repatriation of conquering elements is found in post-1962 Algeria and post-1975 Portugal.

Alright, so do you support sending Hispanics "back where they came from"?

Honestly, you never have anything productive to say, I can't believe you're not banned.

Joby

27th March 2008, 22:15

Working people worldwide strive for nothing less than the abolition of ''Israel'' and the formation of a unified, socialist Palestine complete with the return of the millions of Palestinian refugees with the simultaneous repatriation of Russian "Jews" back where they came from. The repatriation of conquering elements is found in post-1962 Algeria and post-1975 Portugal.

It's people like this that make Israeli's unwilling to make a deal, and reminds them that they don't really need to.

Joby

27th March 2008, 22:23

Either this person is nutty or you are misunderstanding/misrepresenting her views. I support "terrorist" orginizations that fight Israel and I support the destruction of the Israeli state. "Israel" is a terrorist, appartheid state that has no right to exist. The people of Palestine are fighting a national liberation struggle against Israel, a struggle against ethnic cleansing, institutionalized racism, systematic segregation, and brutal exploitation and imperialism.

I support the PFLP specifically as a Communist orginization but I also support all forces that are fighting the imperialist state of "Israel" including (but not limited to) Hamas, Hezbollah, DFLP, the PA, and whoever else. I do not uphold their ideology or their nutty religion but in the dipole conflict between them and the Nazi Israelis, I support the "terrorists".

The PFLP, Hamas, DFLP, and just about every other group fighting the Israeli's sucks. They'll never, ever, be able to defeat the Israelis in a war. Ever. It'd be like saying that the Bloods and Crypts would be able to top the US Army. Secondly, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon will never be able to win against Israel militarily.

Furthermore, every attack they make on the Israels only reinforces to Israelis that a.) they can't trust the Palestinians and b.) there's no reason to make a deal.

Q: Who builds Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

A: Palestinians

Bud Struggle

27th March 2008, 22:45

I support the PFLP specifically as a Communist orginization but I also support all forces that are fighting the imperialist state of "Israel" including (but not limited to) Hamas, Hezbollah, DFLP, the PA, and whoever else. I do not uphold their ideology or their nutty religion but in the dipole conflict between them and the Nazi Israelis, I support the "terrorists".

To what end? Let's say by a freak chance of nature Israel is destroyed--what then? You you think a Communist nation will come from it or a Moslem nation with Sharia law?

Do you think the Palestinians are friendly to Communism? You want change for the better? How would you structure that change? Just overthrowing Israel because you don't like it does nothing for the betterment of the world. The best example of two warring nation occuping the same land that turned their fight into economic prosperity is the Celtic Tiger. The Irish boom was the direct cause of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.

If the Palestinians and the Israelis could make money from one another their fighting would end quickly.

Faux Real

27th March 2008, 23:17

It's people like this that make Israeli's unwilling to make a deal, and reminds them that they don't really need to.Sky's opinion is a fringe opinion and you know very well is not popular. Tthat's no excuse for Israel to reject all resolution let alone ceasefires.

It's people like you whose memory can't go back beyond the last Israeli death, ignoring the material consequences the creation of Israel has had on the local population, that are responsible for the lack of meaningful dialogue.

The PFLP, Hamas, DFLP, and just about every other group fighting the Israeli's sucks. They'll never, ever, be able to defeat the Israelis in a war. Ever. It'd be like saying that the Bloods and Crypts would be able to top the US Army.Who said they would? Why, if there were another 'peaceful period' under Israeli occupation, should the Palestinians submit themselves to further settlement expansion as territory is stolen from right under their noses? Why should they have to put up with these infringements on their ignored rights as humans?

Secondly, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon will never be able to win against Israel militarily.Egypt's peace with Israel is a large factor as to why Israel is still carrying out its agenda in Palestine. Having severed the threat of military confrontation with the most advanced Arab military in the region (over 25 years ago), as well as the puppet states of Saudi Arabia and Jordan posing no threat, there is no balance in power between Palestine and Israel. Palestine has no allies, and thus is in no position to negotiate.

Lebanon's infrastructure has crumbled with the civil wars and the 2006 war, so they can't counteract anything on the other side, and the political situation is just in disarray.

Syria on the other hand is fairly stable, but the President/monarch wouldn't dare confront Israel being that he and his country has no key military ally. Syria is too busy dealing with Iraqi refugees to allocate any significant aid to Palestine.

Furthermore, every attack they make on the Israels only reinforces to Israelis that a.) they can't trust the PalestiniansIf you haven't noticed it's been Palestine that has been repeatedly betrayed by not only Israel but the Arab states. Why on earth would they trust Israel when it's building walls and settlements, and stealing land?

and b.) there's no reason to make a deal.There obviously isn't reason to when you can carry out whatever the fuck you please, kill whomever the fuck you want, and call for another "country's" elected officials to be assassinated with no consequence.

Q: Who builds Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

A: PalestiniansIs that a reason to let them keep doing it? No.

Dejavu

27th March 2008, 23:18

If the Palestinians and the Israelis could make money from one another their fighting would end quickly.

Indeed. It reminds me what the great Frederic Bastiat said :

"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will."

Dros

27th March 2008, 23:18

The PFLP, Hamas, DFLP, and just about every other group fighting the Israeli's sucks.

:lol::lol::lol:

You are so insightful!

Israel has been allowed to exist only because it has been proped up by imperialist powers in the first and second world. With this support gone and a wider support base for the resistance fighters, the Palestinian resistance movement could, in the future, bring the Israeli state to its knees. I suggest you read about military history. Look at the Irish, the American revolution, the wars in India, Vietnam, and numerous others.

Q: Who builds Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

A: Palestinians

Q: Who cares?

A: Noone.

Even if that is true, I can't see what relevance it has to this conversation.

To what end? Let's say by a freak chance of nature Israel is destroyed--what then? You you think a Communist nation will come from it or a Moslem nation with Sharia law?

The later.

Do you think the Palestinians are friendly to Communism? You want change for the better? How would you structure that change? Just overthrowing Israel because you don't like it does nothing for the betterment of the world. The best example of two warring nation occuping the same land that turned their fight into economic prosperity is the Celtic Tiger. The Irish boom was the direct cause of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.

Of course the Palestinians aren't, by and large, friendly to Communism.

And yes. Capitalism causes rapid growth in the means of production. Do you think you are telling me things I don't already know?

Getting rid of Israel is progressive in an historical sense because anti-imperialism is a prerequisite to the DoP. I don't necessarily advocate 100% repatriation but there will need to be substantial land reform and land sharing which will result in thousands of repatriated (or at least displaced) Israelis.

Faux Real

27th March 2008, 23:26

To what end? Let's say by a freak chance of nature Israel is destroyed--what then?Then we're living on another planet.

You you think a Communist nation will come from it or a Moslem nation with Sharia law? If the people there want Shari'a they'll have Shari'a law. Considering Hamas has stated they want direct involvement in what kind of government a "free" Palestine would look like, it's pretty safe to say that because the majority of Palestinians are Muslim they'll want some aspects of Shari'a.

Also, the notion of "communist nation" being an oxymoron hasn't reached you yet. ;) The PFLP isn't the most favored party altho it has strong influence and is a major front on the resistance.

Do you think the Palestinians are friendly to Communism?Yes, certainly more friendly to it than occupation.
You want change for the better? How would you structure that change? Just overthrowing Israel because you don't like it does nothing for the betterment of the world.It's not going to be overthrown, keep dreaming. If anything Israel will realize its project isn't possible. Also, it isn't for the "betterment of the world" to continue failed practices, on part of Israel.
The best example of two warring nation occuping the same land that turned their fight into economic prosperity is the Celtic Tiger. The Irish boom was the direct cause of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.As long as there are nations there is capitalism...

If the Palestinians and the Israelis could make money from one another their fighting would end quickly.LOL wtf? No! It's going to take solidarity among the working classes on both sides for there to be a non-bitter peace.

Dejavu

27th March 2008, 23:32

Israel has been allowed to exist only because it has been proped up by imperialist powersYeah but so was Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt*

*Egypt belonged to an ancient civilization which wasn't Arab speaking and had no relation to the Arabs but is currently an Arab state.

Lebanon was carved out by the French, Palestine and Iraq by the British. Palestine had no clearly defined borders before the British. Its absurd to suggest mass demographic changes in the present based on some disputed history in the past. Following this kinda thought the Coptics can kick the Arabs out of Egypt. I mean it goes on and on. The solution to peace is first recognizing that both sides have a stake in the future there and nothing should change that. I believe decentralizing the radical political bases of both groups is a start. The only way this can be done is by the people themselves when they are good and ready, foreign powers should stay out of it.

I believe both nations would benefit far greater from free trade rather than war but unfortunately foreign powers such as the U.S. has their commercial freedom by the neck.

Getting rid of Israel is progressive in an historical sense because anti-imperialism is a prerequisite to the DoP. I don't necessarily advocate 100% repatriation but there will need to be substantial land reform and land sharing which will result in thousands of repatriated (or at least displaced) Israelis.Responding to ethnic cleansing with more ethnic cleansing is just going to exacerbate the problem.

Dejavu

27th March 2008, 23:38

As long as there are nations there is capitalism...Well its certainly true that the superiority over production by capitalism (relative to any other system) gives the State money to steal from the people. But at the core of it what the nations really do is just put a muzzle on it and try to control and direct this greatest achievement discovered by mankind called capitalism.
Capitalism at its core doesn't care about nationalities, ethnicities, creeds, or any particular kind of culture, at least in its Free Market form , not this State controlled BS.

Capitalism is about ruthless efficiency and thank God for it.

Zurdito

27th March 2008, 23:41

Faux Real

27th March 2008, 23:44

Yeah but so was Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt*They weren't granted a continual flow of military and economic aid that has resulted in them being one of the richest country per citizen.

But yeah Yeah, the Egyptian people sure are benefiting from free trade by not being able to afford bread. :rolleyes:

*Egypt belonged to an ancient civilization which wasn't Arab speaking and had no relation to the Arabs but is currently an Arab state.This is relevant how? There are very few 'ethnic ancient Egyptians' in the country, it's been Arab-ized for over 1400 years.

Responding to ethnic cleansing with more ethnic cleansing is just going to exacerbate the problem.Neither is misinterpreting a statement going to solve it!

Capitalism is about ruthless efficiency and thank God for it.Efficiency is letting over 2 billion people live on less than 2$ a day? Alhamdullilah indeed.

Bud Struggle

27th March 2008, 23:45

seconded.

I'm more with these guys:

http://www.israelbonds.com

They pay a good return. :)

Dejavu

28th March 2008, 00:00

They weren't granted a continual flow of military and economic aid that has resulted in them being one of the richest country per citizen.Actually countries like the U.S. plays both sides which further demonstrates how bad U.S. foreign policy really is. We've given Arab countries around Israel 3x more cash combined. We also direct Israel's military forces. Furthermore, Arab countries such as Syria hostile to Israel received Soviet aid during the so-called 'Cold war.'

The Economic development of Israel is also do to the superior entrepreneurship of Israeli venture capitalists. The Jews brought with them a superior economic system from Europe which was far better than the Bedouin culture of the Arab Palestinians at the time.

I'm not justifying Israeli aggression because I think its disgusting what IDF has done to innocent people but I'm not going to place the blame squarely on Israel's shoulders. The representative governments of both sides only care about expanding their power at the expense of the people on both sides.

But yeah Yeah, the Egyptian people sure are benefiting from free trade by not being able to afford bread. :rolleyes:Where do you see 'free trade' in Egypt? Its virtually non existent so blaming free trade is just plain retarded.

This is relevant how? There are very few 'ethnic ancient Egyptians' in the country, it's been Arab-ized for over 1400 years.And the Jews have an older claim to Judea/Israel. But thats proving my point. Theres nothing that can justify further ethnic cleansing of either side.

Efficiency is letting over 2 billion people live on less than 2$ a day? Alhamdullilah indeed.Not all countries areas of the world were able to accumulate capital as fast as W.Europe and its outposts ( Australia, U.S., Canada.) A large part of the reason was the autocratic regimes that existed in those countries while W.Europe was more decentralized and allowed more economic freedom. Note, just about anywhere that was touched by W.Europe was vastly improved around the world. The civilizations in those regions of the world that decided to adopt the W.European method generally prospered, the ones that stuck to their old ways , did not. South Africa and Hong Kong are good examples. I've been to some third world countries where $2/day for the residents actually went a long way and gave them the necessities they needed. They would work in the 'sweatshops' but the alternative was prostitution and drug dealing and thank God they have refuge from that in the 'sweatshops.'

Dean

28th March 2008, 01:42

Actually countries like the U.S. plays both sides which further demonstrates how bad U.S. foreign policy really is. We've given Arab countries around Israel 3x more cash combined. We also direct Israel's military forces. Furthermore, Arab countries such as Syria hostile to Israel received Soviet aid during the so-called 'Cold war.'
I don't see the U.S. giving military aid to Iran, Syria or any Palestinian organization - let alone Hizb Allah or Hamas. As for Palestine and Israel directly, 2.5 billion was given to Israel in 2007 and 127million was given to the PA (which cannot have a military) and a US - ran organization meant to build infrastructure. It gives no money to the PLO or Fatah.

The Economic development of Israel is also do to the superior entrepreneurship of Israeli venture capitalists. The Jews brought with them a superior economic system from Europe which was far better than the Bedouin culture of the Arab Palestinians at the time.
The bedouin culture still exists, and it has nothing to do with any specific economic system. It was not "better," in fact, the only reason that Israel prospered was because troves of aid were given to the fledging ghetto, and Jewish Nationalist labor unions forced arabs out of factories, because they found that the Arabs started to prosper much more than the colonialists when the free market was introduced - not unlike what happened in Jamestown, VA. Zionist settlers got ahead through theft of land and mob tactics.

I'm not justifying Israeli aggression because I think its disgusting what IDF has done to innocent people but I'm not going to place the blame squarely on Israel's shoulders. The representative governments of both sides only care about expanding their power at the expense of the people on both sides.
You don't think that an historical ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people is primarily to blame? You think the IDF is the primary problem with Israel's tactics?? The entire colony state is based on an apartheid system; not surprisingly, South Africa enlisted Israeli generals to help maintain their apartheid system when it wsa in full force!

Where do you see 'free trade' in Egypt? Its virtually non existent so blaming free trade is just plain retarded.
If you think that the organization the Zionists brought to Palestine is free trade, nobody with human decency wants that in the region.

And the Jews have an older claim to Judea/Israel. But thats proving my point. Theres nothing that can justify further ethnic cleansing of either side.
The Jews don't have to leave. But they don't ahve any disticnt claim to the land, either. They own it just as much as the next person, except in the cases where that next person or his parents were driven out of their home within the last 100 years. I would be more concerned with a home I lived in within the last few decades than something my greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat(ad nauseum) grandparent owned.

Not all countries areas of the world were able to accumulate capital as fast as W.Europe and its outposts ( Australia, U.S., Canada.) A large part of the reason was the autocratic regimes that existed in those countries while W.Europe was more decentralized and allowed more economic freedom. Note, just about anywhere that was touched by W.Europe was vastly improved around the world. The civilizations in those regions of the world that decided to adopt the W.European method generally prospered, the ones that stuck to their old ways , did not. South Africa and Hong Kong are good examples. I've been to some third world countries where $2/day for the residents actually went a long way and gave them the necessities they needed.
No, it doesn't. That's a popular myth, but most necessities (food shelter) are home-grown and owned, and anythign else you might need - say grave medical attention - must be bought, and often cannot.

They would work in the 'sweatshops' but the alternative was prostitution and drug dealing and thank God they have refuge from that in the 'sweatshops.'

Fuck you. I have seen pictures of sweatshops, and read of the conditions that exist there. how disgusting to justify this modern day slavery, in whihc young children are forced into heavy, dangerous labor. Why don't you spend a few seconds reading about these atrocities before you brush them off, you insensitive prick?

Dean

28th March 2008, 01:43

I'm more with these guys:

http://www.israelbonds.com

They pay a good return. :)

On the blood of Arab children.

Dros

28th March 2008, 01:57

Yeah but so was Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt*

How is that relevant at all? The point is, if popular opinion sways against Israel, then chances of Palestinian victory increase dramatically.

Lebanon was carved out by the French, Palestine and Iraq by the British. Palestine had no clearly defined borders before the British. Its absurd to suggest mass demographic changes in the present based on some disputed history in the past.

Yeah. So what???

Following this kinda thought the Coptics can kick the Arabs out of Egypt. I mean it goes on and on.

Right. Because an invasion that happened over a millenium ago is definitely relavent to this conversation.

The solution to peace is first recognizing that both sides have a stake in the future there and nothing should change that.

Of course both sides have a stake. That's meaningless. We're not talking about a negotiation. The Israeli state is not interested in negotiating.

I believe decentralizing the radical political bases of both groups is a start.

I believe reorganizing and engaging and then supporting the radical Communist palestinians is a way to start.

Responding to ethnic cleansing with more ethnic cleansing is just going to exacerbate the problem.

Because that's def. what the commies want right? An ethnic cleansing? Please...

Joby

28th March 2008, 05:12

Sky's opinion is a fringe opinion and you know very well is not popular. Tthat's no excuse for Israel to reject all resolution let alone ceasefires.

I agree.

It's people like you whose memory can't go back beyond the last Israeli death, ignoring the material consequences the creation of Israel has had on the local population, that are responsible for the lack of meaningful dialogue.

What?

Did the Arabs attempt to live peacefully in 1948, when they held the upper hand? No.

Did the Arab's allow Israel to live peacefully pre-1967? No.

Have the Palestinians attempted to live peacefully now? No, they elected a government commited to Israels downfall.

In short, the Palestinians have made no real attempts at peace, outside of Arafat's do-or-die meeting with Clinton and Rabin.

Who said they would? Why, if there were another 'peaceful period' under Israeli occupation, should the Palestinians submit themselves to further settlement expansion as territory is stolen from right under their noses? Why should they have to put up with these infringements on their ignored rights as humans?

No.

But they need to realize they'll get just as far as blacks would have here if they continue blowing up busses. That is, move backward and encourage racial stereotyping against them.

Egypt's peace with Israel is a large factor as to why Israel is still carrying out its agenda in Palestine. Having severed the threat of military confrontation with the most advanced Arab military in the region (over 25 years ago), as well as the puppet states of Saudi Arabia and Jordan posing no threat, there is no balance in power between Palestine and Israel. Palestine has no allies, and thus is in no position to negotiate.

Palestine has no allies because every one of Israel's neighbors has had it's ass whooped, some a number of times, and the US is the only real weapons dealer left. Well, unless you think some T-72s will do any good LOL

Except for perhaps Lebanon, which does a good job of neutralizing itself.

Lebanon's infrastructure has crumbled with the civil wars and the 2006 war, so they can't counteract anything on the other side, and the political situation is just in disarray.

Agreed.

Syria on the other hand is fairly stable, but the President/monarch wouldn't dare confront Israel being that he and his country has no key military ally. Syria is too busy dealing with Iraqi refugees to allocate any significant aid to Palestine.

Syria has refused to make any concessions to Israel, liberalize, or allow Lebanon to be more independent.

This is the root of their problem. Also, Bashir al-Assad isn't anywere close to what his father was.

If you haven't noticed it's been Palestine that has been repeatedly betrayed by not only Israel but the Arab states. Why on earth would they trust Israel when it's building walls and settlements, and stealing land?
There obviously isn't reason to when you can carry out whatever the fuck you please, kill whomever the fuck you want, and call for another "country's" elected officials to be assassinated with no consequence.
Is that a reason to let them keep doing it? No.

Palestine has never shown a willingness to engage in long-term, nonviolent civil disobedience. Until they do, they'll be treated as terrorists by Israel and hurt their chances of having the US force the Israelis to talk.

Palestinians need to stop working for Israelis, stop taking Israeli busses, stop serving Israelis at their businesses, and, quite simply, they need to stand up with more than they're mouth. God, they elect a terrorist group into power, then ***** and whine when, Guess What! You just lost all that US/EU aid and ability to work in Israel.

Well, what did you expect?

Joby

28th March 2008, 05:21

You are so insightful!

Thank you.

Israel has been allowed to exist only because it has been proped up by imperialist powers in the first and second world.

Israel didn't exist in either of those wars.

Also, it was Josef Stalin's Soviet Union who supplied Israel early on.

With this support gone and a wider support base for the resistance fighters, the Palestinian resistance movement could, in the future, bring the Israeli state to its knees. I suggest you read about military history. Look at the Irish, the American revolution, the wars in India, Vietnam, and numerous others.

No, there's a big difference.

The British never saw Ireland as England, nor America/India for that matter.
The US never saw any likelyhood of Vietnam becoming the 51st state.

Israel is the home for millions of Jews. They're not another transistory regime; Until the Palestinians and other Arab states recognize this Israel will always feel as though it's back's against the wall.

Q: Who cares?

A: Noone.

Even if that is true, I can't see what relevance it has to this conversation.

LoL The Palestinians build the settlements, then ***** and whine about how Israel is stealing they're land.

It'd be like if the Apache's built downtown LA.

Faux Real

28th March 2008, 06:16

What?

Did the Arabs attempt to live peacefully in 1948, when they held the upper hand? No.Nor should they have, it was a disproportionate amount of land given to a minority of Jews in comparison to the majority of Arabs still in the mandate.

Did the Arab's allow Israel to live peacefully pre-1967? No. No justice, no peace ring a bell?

Have the Palestinians attempted to live peacefully now? No, they elected a government commited to Israels downfall.They try but they're divided up and bombed when they elect the "wrong people".

In short, the Palestinians have made no real attempts at peace, outside of Arafat's do-or-die meeting with Clinton and Rabin.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

No.

But they need to realize they'll get just as far as blacks would have here if they continue blowing up busses. That is, move backward and encourage racial stereotyping against them. Oh please. How often do you see busses get blown up? Oh right, only when it's on the mainstream news; which itself is in part of why Palestinians are always portrayed as savagely vengeful animals.

Compare the frequency of these bombings to the retaliation- actually, there need not be a bombing, for the general atrocities committed casually by the IDF every week.

Palestine has no allies because every one of Israel's neighbors has it's ass whooped, some a number of times, and the US is the only real weapons dealer left. Well, unless you think some T-72s will do any good LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Anyways, who cares who can beat who? War doesn't determine who's right, only who's left. But yeah, lets be sure to wank off about who can beat up whom while ignoring the politics behind it.

Except for perhaps Lebanon, which does a good job of neutralizing itself. Yeah, those silly and incompetent Lebanese! :glare:

Syria has refused to make any concessions to Israel, liberalize, or allow Lebanon to be more independent.Why should it concede anything to Israel? Syria is a heaven compared to its neighboring countries, so expecting it to 'liberalize' wouldn't improve much. And if you haven't heard, Syria withdrew its forces from Lebanon back in '05-'06...

Palestine has never shown a willingness to engage in long-term, nonviolent civil disobedience. Until they do, they'll be treated as terrorists by Israel and hurt their chances of having the US force the Israelis to talk.Why isn't it the other way around? Israel hasn't shown a willingness to engage in anything, beginning with the declaration of its statehood and national borders.

How can you expect them to when they hold no bargaining power, and the "honest broker" of the US has a hand at stake with Israel?

How can you expect Palestinians to be treated as anything but terrorists when the mainstream western media doesn't portray them as anything but such?

What's there to be expected when the news of 115 civilians in a week casually getting slaughtered does not reach these outlets? What's there to be expected when news another 115 die of starvation, curable disease, and lack of aid?

There's no reason to see the humanity behind the Palestinian suffering for the conglomerates. They don't give a fuck about a Palestinian life the way they do an Israeli one because it's simply not in their interests.

Palestinians need to stop working for Israelis,No. They need to earn as much of a living they can.

stop taking Israeli busses,Why stop there, add in "stop using Israeli streets" when those very streets are within their borders. :glare:

stop serving Israelis at their businesses,So that they can come back to their families with no income?

and, quite simply, they need to stand up with more than they're mouth.What an imbecilic, hypocritical thing to suggest. When they take up arms and resist, they're terrorists and when they try 'negotiating' or peacefully protesting they're full of shit? Which one is it? What is your solution oh knowledgeable one?

God, they elect a terrorist group into power, then ***** and whine when, Guess What! You just lost all that US/EU aid and ability to work in Israel. Would electing a 'terrorist group' apply to the Bush/Blair/Sharon/Olmert administrations as well? How about the IDF? Wasn't the PLO a 'terrorist group'? Maybe you're saying this just because Hamas uses Islam as a motivating force, just as every communist party that led a revolution during the 20th century used communism as a mobilizing force to lead a revolution/resistance to occupation.

Again, you fail at analyzing why a 'terrorist group' comes into being and fail at realizing why a 'terrorist group' would come to power.

For the record, Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. They're as much 'terrorists' as the Communist Party of Vietnam was during both its wars of liberation, or the FLN during the war against the French. They attack the Israeli "Defense" Forces and provide social aid and services to Palestinians.

Well, what did you expect?I'll be sure to expect your liberal chauvinism from now on.

Joby

28th March 2008, 08:58

Nor should they have, it was a disproportionate amount of land given to a minority of Jews in comparison to the majority of Arabs still in the mandate.

The Palestinians would have wiped the Jewish population out, if given the chance. Certainly now, and most likely at the time. The tens of thousands of Jews who had been living in their homes for decades, and had been the ones to finally force the British out, were against a wall in 1948.

No justice, no peace ring a bell?

Justice?

If the Israelis were allowed to play by the senses of 'justice' their neighbors have, they would certainly have followed Arab precedent and opened fire on most of the populated areas of the Gaza strip and leveled it (like Hama), used chemical warafare (Halabja), simply begun butchering them (like all the different militia's in Lebanon), or throw them out when they get unruly (like Jordan/Lebanon).

They try but they're divided up and bombed when they elect the "wrong people".

They were punished for electing a government which simoltaneously launches attacks against Israel via its military wing. As in they create a government which is in a de facto state of war with Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
Oh please. How often do you see busses get blown up? Oh right, only when it's on the mainstream news; which itself is in part of why Palestinians are always portrayed as savagely vengeful animals.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242)

And that's what the Palestinians need to realize. By using terrorism they achieve next to nothing in the military sense, and make themselves look evil to the worlds biggest broker (and the one most interested in the region).

Russia has gotten stronger, but there's still no one out there with US stregnth, and the recent Bush administration pressure on Israel (and work with Egypt, Hamas, and Israel in attempting to create talks) are undermined when a Palestinian runs into a seminary and opens fire.

Compare the frequency of these bombings to the retaliation- actually, there need not be a bombing, for the general atrocities committed casually by the IDF every week.

Yes, the IDF is vastly superior and feels compelled to reming the Pals of this for the bottle-rocket attacks on Israel.

But I agree, more pressude should be placed on Israel following civilian deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

I would consider outnumbering your opponet 9-1, catching them off-guard, and still have lost territory thorughout the week a disappointment, to say the least.

Anyways, who cares who can beat who? War doesn't determine who's right, only who's left. But yeah, lets be sure to wank off about who can beat up whom while ignoring the politics behind it.

No, being good at war has everything to do with politics, especially in this region. In fact, being able to respond, with force, to any challenge towards you seems to be a basic requirement for leadership.

Yeah, those silly and incompetent Lebanese! :glare:

Yes, they suck and are very incompetent at actually being Lebanese. Until they're pretty good at it, Lebanon won't go anywere.

In other words, until being Lebanese is more binding than being Shiite, Sunni, Christian, or Druse.

Why should it concede anything to Israel?

Increased trade with several strong economies.

Syria is a heaven compared to its neighboring countries, so expecting it to 'liberalize' wouldn't improve much.

LoL all that's saying is that their Alawite leaders have controlled the majority of Sunnis well.

Off course, slaughtering thousands when anyone lifts a finger works better at encouraging unity than building somee settelements does :D

And if you haven't heard, Syria withdrew its forces from Lebanon back in '05-'06...

Right....and all those anti-Syrian politicians getting removed in Amin Gemayel fashion doesn't reflect any covert involvemet

(not that I like any of the gemayels)

Why isn't it the other way around? Israel hasn't shown a willingness to engage in anything, beginning with the declaration of its statehood and national borders.

Yeah, they play by the same rules their neighbors do.

Just as the Arabs weren't working for diplomacy in 1948, the Israelis need to be prodded into talks when they are holding the aces.

How can you expect them to when they hold no bargaining power, and the "honest broker" of the US has a hand at stake with Israel?

The US isn't an honest broker.

It's the world broker, and has much more muscle (both militarily and economically) than the regional power competitors, ie Syria and Iran.

How can you expect Palestinians to be treated as anything but terrorists when the mainstream western media doesn't portray them as anything but such?

Because when these attacks happen, they aren't rushing to denounce it. They're on the street dancing.

Not exactly the best mesagge if your trying to hit powerful consciences....

What's there to be expected when the news of 115 civilians in a week casually getting slaughtered does not reach these outlets? What's there to be expected when news another 115 die of starvation, curable disease, and lack of aid?

Gee, maybe Hamas should consider changing their position and attempt to end this via diplomacy?

None of these things will ever be solved via the sword. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this, the better.

There's no reason to see the humanity behind the Palestinian suffering for the conglomerates. They don't give a fuck about a Palestinian life the way they do an Israeli one because it's simply not in their interests.

Right.

If Palestinians were Turkish Kurds, or Syrian Sunnis, or Lebanese, nobody would give a fuck. The Palestinians wouldn't matter. Nobody would care, and the Pals would either be silent or undertaking a much more painful civil war.

But they're lucky; They're fighting jews.

No. They need to earn as much of a living they can.

And become part of the system that's oppresing them.

Why stop there, add in "stop using Israeli streets" when those very streets are within their borders. :glare:

Boycotting the organs of the occupation is the best thing they can do from a tactical prspective.

So that they can come back to their families with no income?

That's what strikers generally go through, yes.

What an imbecilic, hypocritical thing to suggest. When they take up arms and resist, they're terrorists and when they try 'negotiating' or peacefully protesting they're full of shit? Which one is it? What is your solution oh knowledgeable one?

Nonviolent civil disobedience aimed at showing IDF soldiers beating protestors, braking open shops, stomping kids, etc. Provoke the Israelis until they attack you.

But don't blow yourself up. You outnumber them, but you'll never, ever, win in the military sense. So don't vote for Hamas.

Would electing a 'terrorist group' apply to the Bush/Blair/Sharon/Olmert administrations as well?

Sure, but those governments have power and a bargaining position in which force can be applied to ones argument.

The Pals are fighting with bottle rockets.

How about the IDF?

Sure, if it makes you feel better.

Wasn't the PLO a 'terrorist group'?

For a long time, yes.

While Arafat and the other fatass Palestinian leaders were doing nothing in Lebanon but playing arab politics and living high on the hog (while their people were suffering in camps in several countries) they were terrorists. When they were vowing to turn Beirut into Israel's Stalingrad they were terorists, though they clearly demonstrated they didn't really care to fight when the option to flee was presented by the US.

Maybe you're saying this just because Hamas uses Islam as a motivating force, just as every communist party that led a revolution during the 20th century used communism as a mobilizing force to lead a revolution/resistance to occupation.

What?

Comparing working-class movements to radical islam is ridiculous.

But no, Hamas should be criticized for being insanely opposed to logic.

Again, you fail at analyzing why a 'terrorist group' comes into being and fail at realizing why a 'terrorist group' would come to power.

You fail to recognize that they really hold no power.

For the record, Hamas isn't a terrorist organization.

For the record, they are to the forces in the world that shape most of the worlds events.

They're as much 'terrorists' as the Communist Party of Vietnam was during both its wars of liberation, or the FLN during the war against the French. They attack the Israeli "Defense" Forces and provide social aid and services to Palestinians.

By attacking Isreal, they create a situation so horrible for Palestinians that their social aid is a moot point.

I'll be sure to expect your liberal chauvinism from now on.

Look, the Palestinians are like a woman Israel's been fucking for 50 years.

And Palestine needs to figure out of it wants to demand a marriage, divorce, or the incredibly stupid option of trying get back via violence.

Palestinians need to onvince Israelis they can ingest them without commiting suicide, or cut them off without creating your arch-enemy.

edit: accidently put "Karbala" in "Halabjas" spot. don' know why...

Faux Real

28th March 2008, 10:51

The Palestinians would have wiped the Jewish population out, if given the chance. Certainly now, and most likely at the time. The tens of thousands of Jews who had been living in their homes for decades, and had been the ones to finally force the British out, were against a wall in 1948.Mizrahi Jews forced the British out? Right. Okayyy.

Justice?

If the Israelis were allowed to play by the senses of 'justice' their neighbors have, they would certainly have followed Arab precedent and opened fire on most of the populated areas of the Gaza strip and leveled it (like Hama), used chemical warafare (Karbala), simply begun butchering them (like all the different militia's in Lebanon), or throw them out when they get unruly (like Jordan/Lebanon). You're pulling straws here.

They were punished for electing a government which simoltaneously launches attacks against Israel via its military wing. As in they create a government which is in a de facto state of war with Israel.As evidenced by the repeated attempts at a ceasefire with Israel that always ends in rejection. :rolleyes:

And that's what the Palestinians need to realize. By using terrorism they achieve next to nothing in the military sense, and make themselves look evil to the worlds biggest broker (and the one most interested in the region).Sure, but if they don't attack Israeli forces nothing will change. Not the settlements or negative portrayal in American media. Aside from that, the resolution has been ignored by Israel and they refused to sign it. Why don't you pressure Israel to negotiate as much you do Palestine?

Russia has gotten stronger, but there's still no one out there with US stregnth, and the recent Bush administration pressure on Israel (and work with Egypt, Hamas, and Israel in attempting to create talks) are undermined when a Palestinian runs into a seminary and opens fire.Okay, but why should a lone man from Jerusalem who was evidently disgusted watching over a hundred die and decides to do something, dumb I may add, prevent talks? Do you have any idea how rare it is for Israeli civilians to get killed? Do you seriously think Israel wants peace when it advocates collective punishment, Holocaust or "shoah", upon a "terrorist entity"; the entire Gaza strip?

Yes, the IDF is vastly superior and feels compelled to reming the Pals of this for the bottle-rocket attacks on Israel.

But I agree, more pressude should be placed on Israel following civilian deaths.And those displaced, having had their homes demolished, walls built to separate them from their towns, etc..

I would consider outnumbering your opponet 9-1, catching them off-guard, and still have lost territory thorughout the week a disappointment, to say the least.They weren't outnumbering them 9-1 in the '48 war. Israel had almost twice the number of Arab soldiers combined. And I hope you're not talking about the Yom Kippur war, Israel ended up losing territory.

No, being good at war has everything to do with politics, especially in this region. In fact, being able to respond, with force, to any challenge towards you seems to be a basic requirement for leadership.
So a militarist, fascist police state would be a good thing for the region? Nuclear weapons are fine and dandy to deploy?

Yes, they suck and are very incompetent at actually being Lebanese. Until they're pretty good at it, Lebanon won't go anywere.

In other words, until being Lebanese is more binding than being Shiite, Sunni, Christian, or Druse.As if there weren't external forces that created this situation.

Increased trade with several strong economies. But as you suggested Israel should be boycotted. Now which is it?

LoL all that's saying is that their Alawite leaders have controlled the majority of Sunnis well....compared to its neighboring countries...
Off course, slaughtering thousands when anyone lifts a finger works better at encouraging unity than building somee settelements does :DGo live in Syria, in the West Bank and Gaza, then come back and tell us what you think.

Right....and all those anti-Syrian politicians getting removed in Amin Gemayel fashion doesn't reflect any covert involvemet

(not that I like any of the gemayels)Right, just so Syria could be denounced as criminal in the face of Europe just as it was trying to re-engage politically with the US and EU. "Mossad did it!" :ohmy:

Yeah, they play by the same rules their neighbors do. Like a of dictatorships, monarchies, and hellhole for immigrant workers. Real credible.

Just as the Arabs weren't working for diplomacy in 1948, the Israelis need to be prodded into talks when they are holding the aces.That's the problem, they wont no matter how much the UN 'prods' them. There are no consequences for not 'prodding'.

The US isn't an honest broker.

It's the world broker, and has much more muscle (both militarily and economically) than the regional power competitors, ie Syria and Iran.Is this anything but self-evident?

Because when these attacks happen, they aren't rushing to denounce it. They're on the street dancing.

Not exactly the best mesagge if your trying to hit powerful consciences....The powerful have no conscience. They have financial interests at stake. No reason for them to even pity them.

Gee, maybe Hamas should consider changing their position and attempt to end this via diplomacy?They have but to no avail. They were declared war upon as soon as they were elected. Ceasefire proposals have been turned down time and time again for over a year. Fatah and the opportunist Abbas was ordered by the US and Israel to further destabilize Palestinian society by carrying out a civil war. Gazas borders are closed off as well as flow of vital supplies to be bombed, and Israel uses the excuse of these homemade missiles to continue these atrocious policies. How is that for diplomacy?

None of these things will ever be solved via the sword. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this, the better. Israel can't recognize that.

Right.

If Palestinians were Turkish Kurds, or Syrian Sunnis, or Lebanese, nobody would give a fuck. The Palestinians wouldn't matter. Nobody would care, and the Pals would either be silent or undertaking a much more painful civil war.Pull more straw men.

But they're lucky; They're fighting jews. :rolleyes:

And become part of the system that's oppresing them. They're part of it whether they participate in it or not, it's really not their choice as to whether they live or not.

Boycotting the organs of the occupation is the best thing they can do from a tactical prspective. Zionists in the Knesset? The US government? Zionist lobbies? Doesn't seem like a plan made to fly.

That's what strikers generally go through, yes. Strikers usually have livable wages and don't live in an arbitrary warzone.

Nonviolent civil disobedience aimed at showing IDF soldiers beating protestors, braking open shops, stomping kids, etc. Provoke the Israelis until they attack you. They don't need to protest for that to happen, and yet it does nothing for them to those who can end this situation!

But don't blow yourself up. You outnumber them, but you'll never, ever, win in the military sense. So don't vote for Hamas. These suicide bombings are rare, when is the last one you heard of?

As for population growth, Arabs within both the territories and Israel are due to outnumber Israelis within a few decades. I guess the solution is to have more babies. :p

Sure, but those governments have power and a bargaining position in which force can be applied to ones argument.

The Pals are fighting with bottle rockets. And that's telling.

Sure, if it makes you feel better.
For a long time, yes.

While Arafat and the other fatass Palestinian leaders were doing nothing in Lebanon but playing arab politics and living high on the hog (while their people were suffering in camps in several countries) they were terrorists. When they were vowing to turn Beirut into Israel's Stalingrad they were terorists, though they clearly demonstrated they didn't really care to fight when the option to flee was presented by the US.How are they terrorists when they explicitly attack(ed) IDF forces? Are you going by the US government's definition of terrorism?

What?

Comparing working-class movements to radical islam is ridiculous.
But no, Hamas should be criticized for being insanely opposed to logic.Unfortunately, the VCP was not a worker's party, but it was a national liberation party that used the name and appeal of communism to rally and organize a resistance base around it. How else would you explain Vietnams reluctance to undertake socialist or communist oriented reforms when it's Asia's second fastest growing economy?

Hamas too is a national liberation party.

You fail to recognize that they really hold no power. By power I mean electoral power, when have I implied otherwise? As a matter of fact I've been trying to explain that they nor any other Palestinian entity holds bargain power.

For the record, they are to the forces in the world that shape most of the worlds events.Just as they slander communism, leftism, or anything opposed to their agenda, yeah we should really take the word of those in power. Don't know what you're trying to prove here.

By attacking Isreal, they create a situation so horrible for Palestinians that their social aid is a moot point.It's a horrible situation regardless of they attack Israel or not. You're missing the point.

Look, the Palestinians are like a woman Israel's been fucking for 50 years.

And Palestine needs to figure out of it wants to demand a marriage, divorce, or the incredibly stupid option of trying get back via violence.

Palestinians need to onvince Israelis they can ingest them without commiting suicide, or cut them off without creating your arch-enemy.Thats a ridiculous analogy and you're creating a false dichotomy.

pusher robot

28th March 2008, 17:54

The powerful have no conscience. They have financial interests at stake. No reason for them to even pity them.

If this and everything else you say is true,if appealing to conscience cannot work, you're still wrong. You're still wrong because if all that is true, the Palistinians have no chance of winning this conflict. It is a complete and utter lost cause in every sense of the term, and the best thing for them to do would be to cut their losses and give up any pretense of struggle.

Redmau5

28th March 2008, 19:36

The British never saw Ireland as England, nor America/India for that matter.

They saw Ireland as British though, and viewed America and India as British colonies ruled by the British government.

Did the Arabs attempt to live peacefully in 1948, when they held the upper hand? No.

Did the Arab's allow Israel to live peacefully pre-1967? No.

Have the Palestinians attempted to live peacefully now? No, they elected a government commited to Israels downfall.

And? An alien state had just been created within Palestinian lands, regardless of it's size or power. Why should they allow Israel to live peacefully?

If the Israelis were allowed to play by the senses of 'justice' their neighbors have, they would certainly have followed Arab precedent and opened fire on most of the populated areas of the Gaza strip and leveled it (like Hama), used chemical warafare (Halabja), simply begun butchering them (like all the different militia's in Lebanon), or throw them out when they get unruly (like Jordan/Lebanon).

Regardless of what methods were used by various Arab organisations, they do not come close to the murder rate of the IDF.

Just as the Arabs weren't working for diplomacy in 1948

And tell me again, why should they have worked for diplomacy? Can you justify the creation of an Israeli state that displaced thousands of natives?

http://www.exeterpsc.org.uk/map.jpg

"The Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history." - Malcolm X.

And tell me again Joby, since you ignored me the last time I asked you. Are you not the same Joby that masqueraded as a socialist on Rebel Alliance? I just think it's funny that as soon as you got restricted on here and became deeply reactionary, the Joby on RA ceased to post as well.:rolleyes:

Joby

28th March 2008, 20:13

They saw Ireland as British though, and viewed America and India as British colonies ruled by the British government.

None of those places was worth defending because it wasn't their home. These places were able to make it unprofitable for the British to colonize them.

Israel, however, is the home to millions of Jews who will defend it as such.

And? An alien state had just been created within Palestinian lands, regardless of it's size or power. Why should they allow Israel to live peacefully?

Then why should Israel keep them alive?

Regardless of what methods were used by various Arab organisations, they do not come close to the murder rate of the IDF.

Not for lack of trying.

And tell me again, why should they have worked for diplomacy? Can you justify the creation of an Israeli state that displaced thousands of natives?

Does it matter? At all?
http://www.exeterpsc.org.uk/map.jpg

The scope of how much the Arabs absoultely suck.

"The Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history." - Malcolm X.

The only argument that matters is that Israel is a thousand times stronger, more organized, and more determined than any of its neighbors.

If Palestine, Syria, Egypt, or Lebanon lose a war, there's some loss of prestige, maybe a little land.

But if Israel loses a war, there's a definite end. A bitter end.

And tell me again Joby, since you ignored me the last time I asked you. Are you not the same Joby that masqueraded as a socialist on Rebel Alliance? I just think it's funny that as soon as you got restricted on here and became deeply reactionary, the Joby on RA ceased to post as well.:rolleyes:

First, yes, I am that Joby.

Second, I' still a socialist. I'm just not delusional.

Third, I quite posting there because that forum sucks.

Dean

28th March 2008, 20:43

The scope of how much the Arabs absoultely suck.
You're a racist piece of trash, and any socialist tendancies you have are marred with xenophobic filth.

Bud Struggle

28th March 2008, 21:07

You're a racist piece of trash, and any socialist tendancies you have are marred with xenophobic filth.

Well, with that said: what would work? Israel isn't going away, nobody's going to set up a People's Revolutionary Palestinian Party.

Do you want Peace? Do you want Justice? Do you want all hell till the "revolution" comes?

Israel isn't going away, neither are the Palestinians. So how do we reconcile two opposing ideologies? The only answer is to do like they did in Ireland--piles of cash. Once people have a financial stake in their communities, they don't want to see it all blown to hell (along with their children's lives.)

The answer (like in Ireland) is Free Market Capitalism.

Joby

28th March 2008, 21:19

.You're pulling straws here.

How?

Saddam Hussein and Hafez al-Assad have shown that the Israeli response to controlling populaces isn't in the best long-term interests of the Israelis.

As evidenced by the repeated attempts at a ceasefire with Israel that always ends in rejection. :rolleyes:

Yup.

Sure, but if they don't attack Israeli forces nothing will change.

It's no likle they've really tried non-violent civil disobedience over a longperiod of time.

Not the settlements or negative portrayal in American media.

America is the only country that can force Israel to the table.

The American media gives the Palestinians a better shake than any other oppressed group in the world. Chiefly because, unlike, say, the Kurds, the Pals are fighing white people.

Aside from that, the resolution has been ignored by Israel and they refused to sign it. Why don't you pressure Israel to negotiate as much you do Palestine?

Who says we shouldn't?

But we recognize that Israel is a much more powerful ally than Palestine could ever be.

Okay, but why should a lone man from Jerusalem who was evidently disgusted watching over a hundred die and decides to do something, dumb I may add, prevent talks?

Because it represents that the Palestinians leadership can't control their popualtion.

So why should Israel make concessions to them?

Do you have any idea how rare it is for Israeli civilians to get killed? Do you seriously think Israel wants peace when it advocates collective punishment, Holocaust or "shoah", upon a "terrorist entity"; the entire Gaza strip?

Yes, the IDF is vastly superior and Israel has adapted to its position.

If the Gaza strip is so vulnerable, and obviously inferior to Israel in every way imaginable, perhaps they shouldn't elect a government commited to the violent overthrow of Israel.....And then act suprised when Israel cuts them off.

They weren't outnumbering them 9-1 in the '48 war. Israel had almost twice the number of Arab soldiers combined.

But the Arab popualtion outnumbered the Jewish one greatly, did it not?
All of Israel's neighbors declared war, did they not?

Yet apparently, more Jews were ready to die for their homes.

And I hope you're not talking about the Yom Kippur war, Israel ended up losing territory.

What? The Sinai they exchanged for full peace with Egypt?

So a militarist, fascist police state would be a good thing for the region?

I would be in Israels best interests, technically.

Or let me put it this way: Every peaceful nation in the region has a good secret police force. Or, they're extremely unstable.

Nuclear weapons are fine and dandy to deploy?

No, the international fallout from such an act would be very costly.

Cruise missiles would probably handle the situation better.

As if there weren't external forces that created this situation.

Yes yes If you're a Palestinian, the civil war was all Israel's fault.

If you're a Christian, it was all Syria's fault.

If you're a Shiite, it was all America's fault.

But as you suggested Israel should be boycotted. Now which is it?

Palestine and Syria are not in the same position.

By making peace with Israel, Syria could help the Palestinians much more than in the current state, like how Egypt laid the planks for a Palestinian State following its peace deal with Israel.

Of course, the PLO wouldn't accept this notion (ie the right of Israel to exist) until 15 years later, but oh well.

Go live in Syria, in the West Bank and Gaza, then come back and tell us what you think.

The West Bank/Gaza Strip would be much better off if Israel used al-Assad style tctics to silence the Palestine question once and for all.

"Better one mont of Hama than 15 years like Lebanon"

Of course, this is the last thing I want to see.

Right, just so Syria could be denounced as criminal in the face of Europe just as it was trying to re-engage politically with the US and EU. "Mossad did it!" :ohmy:

Yes, the Mossad has had a long history of car-bombing anti-Syrian Christian politicians in Lebanon :rolleyes:

Like a of dictatorships, monarchies, and hellhole for immigrant workers. Real credible.

I'm thinking a lot less John Locke in this region, a lot more Thomas Hobbes.

That's the problem, they wont no matter how much the UN 'prods' them.

The UN ain't shit on this issue.

Washington, and to a lesser extent, Tehran, is.

Is this anything but self-evident?

Yes, it is.

The powerful have no conscience.

And Palestinians are allowed to live, why, exactly?

They have financial interests at stake. No reason for them to even pity them.

Yes, we do have financial interests at stake.

Like lowering the price of oil, for instance. Something we occasionally sacrifice by supporting Israel.

They have but to no avail. They were declared war upon as soon as they were elected.

They have been at war with Israel since they wrote their charter.

What do you expect?

Ceasefire proposals have been turned down time and time again for over a year.

Because Hamas needs to dump the notion of violently removing Israel.

As you have made clear, Israel does not need to negotiate so much as Hamas does.

Fatah and the opportunist Abbas was ordered by the US and Israel to further destabilize Palestinian society by carrying out a civil war. Gazas borders are closed off as well as flow of vital supplies to be bombed, and Israel uses the excuse of these homemade missiles to continue these atrocious policies. How is that for diplomacy?

Abbas is a shill, that's true.

As for Israel beating up on Palestine, tough. Change your charter.

Israel can't recognize that.

Israel does not need to recognize that.

Pull more straw men.

Are you saying that you believe people would care as much about Palestine if they were oppressed by Syria?

They wouldn't.

They're part of it whether they participate in it or not, it's really not their choice as to whether they live or not.

The Occupation has only been possible through Palestinian cooperation.

Zionists in the Knesset? The US government? Zionist lobbies? Doesn't seem like a plan made to fly.

Charlie Gibson narrating Palestinians being beaten by IDF soldiers. 60 minutes running a special on "The End of the Israeli Dream." Chris Matthews tearing a Zionist to shreds over the storming of a peaceful Palestinian march.

Strikers usually have livable wages and don't live in an arbitrary warzone.

The Palestinians need to renounce violence as a response to these attacks.

They need a Mahatma.

As for population growth, Arabs within both the territories and Israel are due to outnumber Israelis within a few decades. I guess the solution is to have more babies. :p

Great plan. :rolleyes:

Are you going by the US government's definition of terrorism?

Definitions that matter on the world stage.

It's a horrible situation regardless of they attack Israel or not. You're missing the point.

Really?

It was a horrible situation in the occupied territories pre-1987?

Thats a ridiculous analogy and you're creating a false dichotomy.

You can't call for a 1 state solution, then support one sides bottle rocket attacks.

Dros

28th March 2008, 21:29

Israel didn't exist in either of those wars.

What the fuck are you talking about? What wars?!

Also, it was Josef Stalin's Soviet Union who supplied Israel early on.

Red is my favorite color.

Do you care?

No.

Please stop stating totally irrelevant facts. Especially things that I already know. (Or things that I understand why you think are true as in the case of this last statement, considering that after 1948 Stalin changed his mind and came out against Israel.)

No, there's a big difference.

The British never saw Ireland as England, nor America/India for that matter.
The US never saw any likelyhood of Vietnam becoming the 51st state.

And that has what to do with the possibility of guerrilla warfare being effective against superior military forces?

Israel is the home for millions of Jews. They're not another transistory regime; Until the Palestinians and other Arab states recognize this Israel will always feel as though it's back's against the wall.

It is backed against a wall. And when the imperialists stop supporting them, they will be skrewed.

LoL The Palestinians build the settlements, then ***** and whine about how Israel is stealing they're land.

You're so simplistic. Congratulations on proving another one of capitalism's failures. You're correct. The proletariat is forced to sell its labor power to the Bourgeoisie. Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait...

Xiao Banfa

28th March 2008, 21:50

Well, with that said: what would work? Israel isn't going away, nobody's going to set up a People's Revolutionary Palestinian Party.

In Israel, there is Hadash (Communist) which get's at least above 5 percent.

And traditionally in the occupied territories leftist organizations have completely dominated the political scene.

Hamas was set up with help from the Shin Bet as a way to divert palestinian enthusiasm away from leftism and into Islam.

The answer (like in Ireland) is Free Market Capitalism.

Liberalizing markets to some extent always opens up the door to more economic activity and thus more prosperity.

But Ireland is not total free-market capitalism, which you advocate.

Also, N. Ireland was the conflict zone. It's still the poorest region of the UK.

What you also have to realise is that the main fuel for the NI troubles was lack of civil rights for irish catholics. After the PIRA's 30 year armed campaign brought the other parties to the table, those issues were sorted out.

So free market=peace is bullshit.

Joby

28th March 2008, 21:56

You're a racist piece of trash, and any socialist tendancies you have are marred with xenophobic filth.

Sorry, let me restate that into the context I meant.

This shows, along with the Iraqi resistance, how much the arabs have sucked at war since the 15th century or so.

Joby

28th March 2008, 22:05

What the fuck are you talking about? What wars?!

You said: Israel has been allowed to exist only because it has been proped up by imperialist powers in the first and second world.

I said: Israel didn't exist in either of those wars.

Red is my favorite color.

Do you care?

No.

Please stop stating totally irrelevant facts. Especially things that I already know. (Or things that I understand why you think are true as in the case of this last statement, considering that after 1948 Stalin changed his mind and came out against Israel.)

Yes, Stalin changed his mind once the US began supporting Israel. he, of course, cared nothing about the phlight of the Palestinians beyond political gain for his country.

Something we should do here in the US

And that has what to do with the possibility of guerrilla warfare being effective against superior military forces?

What would you defend more:

Your country colonizing a far-off nation.

Your house.

It is backed against a wall. And when the imperialists stop supporting them, they will be skrewed.

They can afford their own arms, and have shown an ability in warfare the arabs can't touch.

You're so simplistic. Congratulations on proving another one of capitalism's failures. You're correct. The proletariat is forced to sell its labor power to the Bourgeoisie. Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait...

By BUILDING THEIR SETTLEMENTS they shouldn't act like these settlements are anything but what they brought on themselves.

Workers throughout history have been willing to starve, strike, and fight for their rights.

The Palestinians want some bottle rockets to do the work for them.

Sky

28th March 2008, 22:12

Alright, so do you support sending Hispanics "back where they came from"?
I support a Zimbabwe solution for the southwestern United States in which California, Texas, etc will break off to form an independent socialist republic under the rule of the Chicano majority. The rights of the non-Chicano minority would be protected with the option of being repatriated to the east.

Xiao Banfa

28th March 2008, 22:16

By BUILDING THEIR SETTLEMENTS they shouldn't act like these settlements are anything but what they brought on themselves.

Workers throughout history have been willing to starve, strike, and fight for their rights.

The Palestinians want some bottle rockets to do the work for them.

It's not their fault. They didn't plan it, they don't agree with it, it's not in their interest.

The israelis will get the workers from somewhere else and the palestinians who could have had the jobs will starve.

Nah, I'd rather fight with some food in my belly.

Bud Struggle

28th March 2008, 22:56

I support a Zimbabwe solution for the southwestern United States in which California, Texas, etc will break off to form an independent socialist republic under the rule of the Chicano majority. The rights of the non-Chicano minority would be protected with the option of being repatriated to the east.

In other words: "I support a Zimbabwe solution for the southwestern China which Tibet will break off to form an independent socialist republic under the rule of the Tibetian majority. The rights of the Chinese minority would be protected with the option of being repatriated to the east."

You are a reactionary! :laugh:

Dean

28th March 2008, 23:17

Well, with that said: what would work? Israel isn't going away, nobody's going to set up a People's Revolutionary Palestinian Party.

Do you want Peace? Do you want Justice? Do you want all hell till the "revolution" comes?
I already posted what I want, in an earleir response which in turn got no responses. I don't want racism, though, which is obviously the main point behind Joby's half-assed xenophobic remarks.

Israel isn't going away, neither are the Palestinians. So how do we reconcile two opposing ideologies?
There has to be reconciliation. Ideally, there would be no state or distinction between the settlers and the displaced, but as for now the major violence against civilian targets has to stop, first and foremost. Economic strangulation must cease, and serious discussions about return of land and reparations must start.

The only answer is to do like they did in Ireland--piles of cash. Once people have a financial stake in their communities, they don't want to see it all blown to hell (along with their children's lives.)

The answer (like in Ireland) is Free Market Capitalism.
I don't think the free market will really respond appropriately to the questions of violence targetting civilians, land grabs, displacement, refugee squalor, checkpoints and theft of energy to start.

Dros

29th March 2008, 02:56

Joby: you are an inane, racist, drivelling idiot.

I am unable to express anything but contempt for you and all those sad little people like you.

Joby

29th March 2008, 04:45

I support a Zimbabwe solution for the southwestern United States in which California, Texas, etc will break off to form an independent socialist republic under the rule of the Chicano majority. The rights of the non-Chicano minority would be protected with the option of being repatriated to the east.

If the "Chicanos" are the majority in those places, there's nothing stopping them from controlling the governments in those places.

This tribalism you have is as despicable as the ones shown in the ME, and contrary to everything we should be trying to build here in the US.

Joby

29th March 2008, 04:48

I already posted what I want, in an earleir response which in turn got no responses. I don't want racism, though, which is obviously the main point behind Joby's half-assed xenophobic remarks.

What?

Are you contesting the fact that the Arabs indeed, do suck at warring with Israel?

Just because one recoginzes that, ahem, Israel holds all the cards and is incredibly more powerful than all of its neighbors does not mean racism.

It's just reality.

Joby

29th March 2008, 04:49

Joby: you are an inane, racist, drivelling idiot.

Shut the fuck up or debate.

I am unable to express anything but contempt for you and all those sad little people like you.

I feel sorry for all you Marxists with you heads up your ass.

Lesson #1: In the ME, Might is Right.

Joby

29th March 2008, 04:53

It's not their fault. They didn't plan it, they don't agree with it, it's not in their interest.

The israelis will get the workers from somewhere else and the palestinians who could have had the jobs will starve.

Nah, I'd rather fight with some food in my belly.

Trust me, I feel for the Palestinians. On my cars bumper, I have "Peace" in all that nations languages. I've donated to charities which provide food for the Pals (mostly because I care about them more than people fighting non-whites, like most people here).

But they need to realize that, as a senior Israeli politician put it in the early phases of the first intifada, in which striking/civil disobedience in the occupied territories began in any meaningful way:

"The sooner the Palestinians revert back to terrorism, the better it will be for us."

spartan

29th March 2008, 05:27

But they need to realize that, as a senior Israeli politician put it in the early phases of the first intifada, in which striking/civil disobedience in the occupied territories began in any meaningful way:

"The sooner the Palestinians revert back to terrorism, the better it will be for us."

I can understand that perfectly but then it isnt as simple as that.

The fact is when you have to live in deplorable conditions watching innocent peoples houses being bulldozed because of something that they didnt do, and watching family, friends and neighbours being killed by airstrikes and IDF tanks on land that was once yours, the decision to strap explosives to yourself and kill as many of the responsible (For these acts) state's people as possible suddenly seems quite a rational choice for these young men and women.

The fact is the first shot was fired by the Israelis not the Palestinians, so the Palestinians will always have right on their side.

Though needless to say i dont agree with Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians because it does nothing except lend even more credit and support to the Israeli government, from the Israeli people and right wingers, in their ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians.

Bud Struggle

29th March 2008, 18:28

I already posted what I want, in an earleir response which in turn got no responses.

I take it you mean this:
The Jews don't have to leave. But they don't ahve any disticnt claim to the land, either. They own it just as much as the next person, except in the cases where that next person or his parents were driven out of their home within the last 100 years. I would be more concerned with a home I lived in within the last few decades than something my greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat(ad nauseum) grandparent owned.

I have a difficult time disagreeing with you in principal. Unfortunately the climate of distrust and hatred that exists over there, I think, makes that solution pretty difficult to achieve in any time in the near future. On the other hand, if things cool down a bit--it might work with big compromises on both sides. The Israelis work pretty well (not perfectly) with the Arab citizens of Israel. They contribute to the common welfare and are treated (almost) as regular citizens. The country would no longer be "Jewish" and that might be a problem for the hardliners from Brooklyn.

There has to be reconciliation. Ideally, there would be no state or distinction between the settlers and the displaced, but as for now the major violence against civilian targets has to stop, first and foremost. Economic strangulation must cease, and serious discussions about return of land and reparations must start.

I can agree to that. But that is certainly an ideal.

I don't think the free market will really respond appropriately to the questions of violence targetting civilians, land grabs, displacement, refugee squalor, checkpoints and theft of energy to start.

Here we disagree. When you have nothing, you have nothing to loose in a fight. When you own property, you want peace to ensure your property thrives and prospers.

Again--Look to the Celtic Tiger. It worked.

graffic

29th March 2008, 21:41

I don't have a "brand" or "leftist thought" on this issue. It's humane to want to see the end of institutional racism and systematic ethnic cleansing based on religion and race. There should be one 'democratic republican' Palestinian state as long as we live in a capitalist world. Zionism has proven to be an insurmountable failure and it will not succeed, unless the state resorts to further and a far more overt form of ethnic cleansing within Israel of the Palestinian Israelis (who live within its borders and have an extremely larger birth rate to that of Israelis but live in shanties).

Its humane to see the end of "institutional racism and systematic ethnic cleansing based on religion and race". Damn fucking right it is. That is why its not humane to support a "single" "Palestinian State".

The only place you here the words "Democratic" and "Palestinian state" are in the West where the slogan is used to generate sympathy. Israel is the only secular state in the Middle East, the foundations of Zionism, the beliefs of Zionism, the visions of Zionism are based on the exact opposite of institutional racism and systematic ethnic cleansing based on religion and race. The Palestinian cause is led by publicly known supporters of "institutional racism and systematic ethnic cleansing based on religion and race". What makes you think the Palestinian cause will produce a "secular, democratic state" when every scrap of evidence in front of you states the exact opposite. What the fuck do you think men and women blowing themselves up in shopping centres and schools are forwarding? Socialism?! A Theocratic regime including the stoning of gays and suppression of women is the reality. You know what it is even more sick? Ignorant people like you actually support these deluded men and women. You betray the Palestinians when you tow the reactionary Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas line "Lets fuck those Israelis over" "Really fuck them!" and so on.

And Zionism has produced one of the most successful Labour commune movements of the 21st century - Kibbutzm. Of course Palestinian Nationalism will rival this with greater progressive systems of human development.. I can picture it now: After Israel has been destroyed and the socialist Utopia of Palestine constructed.. Relations with Venezuala will blossom, a centrally planned Economy. Equality for all. Jerusalem will be the beacon of Socialism .. Oh wait, Ive been smoking crack again.

On a serious note the amount of lies going around concerning the Middle East conflict, particularly in "Leftist" circles, is scary.

Faux Real

29th March 2008, 21:54

By a single Palestine I meant merged state of the territories and Israel, and it would be rightful to rename it Palestine because Israel is supposed to be "for the Jews only" - under Palestine it was for Jews, Christians Muslims and just about anyone else. You misinterpreted what I said.

And Zionism has produced one of the most successful Labour commune movements of the 21st century - Kibbutzm.Incorrect. Kibbutzm were racist communes that paid Arabs low wages for laboring under slavelike conditions and rejected any admission of them into the communes.

Colonello Buendia

29th March 2008, 22:01

Dean

30th March 2008, 18:21

I take it you mean this:

I have a difficult time disagreeing with you in principal. Unfortunately the climate of distrust and hatred that exists over there, I think, makes that solution pretty difficult to achieve in any time in the near future. On the other hand, if things cool down a bit--it might work with big compromises on both sides. The Israelis work pretty well (not perfectly) with the Arab citizens of Israel. They contribute to the common welfare and are treated (almost) as regular citizens. The country would no longer be "Jewish" and that might be a problem for the hardliners from Brooklyn.
Well, Jews also live peacefully beside Palestinians. Jewish settlers who live on stolen land, however, don't. You're right that it is a tough issue now - at this point, there are Jewish families who have spent ~80 years on the same, stolen land. At this point, it would be hard to say that someone who was born and raised on such stolen land really owes anyone anything - at the same time, suhc old claims are not the most relevant ones. Theft of land has occured for millenia in various aprts of the world, but it only becomes a big issue when it hasn't stopped and is a recent memory. Both sides will have to make concessions, but the fear of a second holocaust is preopsterous. If the Palestinians are given peace, they will stop fighting - even if nothing else is done. With no active oppression, the militant factions will have no support. It's not as hard to do as you think; the hardest thing is getting to hard-liners suporting Israel to make concessions.

Here we disagree. When you have nothing, you have nothing to loose in a fight. When you own property, you want peace to ensure your property thrives and prospers.
I have everything to lose in a fight if I don't own property. Property won't make me somehow more peaceful. In fact, one could argue that the concept of property rights are at the core of the Palestine - Israel issue. Since both people believe that they have a right to certain property, they will fight for it. Without such a concept of exclusory rights, the Zionists wouldn't need to push out the Arabs, and the Palestinians would have less interest in specific land.

Bud Struggle

30th March 2008, 20:49

Well, Jews also live peacefully beside Palestinians. Jewish settlers who live on stolen land, however, don't. You're right that it is a tough issue now - at this point, there are Jewish families who have spent ~80 years on the same, stolen land. At this point, it would be hard to say that someone who was born and raised on such stolen land really owes anyone anything - at the same time, suhc old claims are not the most relevant ones. Theft of land has occured for millenia in various aprts of the world, but it only becomes a big issue when it hasn't stopped and is a recent memory. Both sides will have to make concessions, but the fear of a second holocaust is preopsterous. If the Palestinians are given peace, they will stop fighting - even if nothing else is done. With no active oppression, the militant factions will have no support. It's not as hard to do as you think; the hardest thing is getting to hard-liners suporting Israel to make concessions.

I'm pretty much agreed. I think it may be harder than you say. But I'm IN!

I have everything to lose in a fight if I don't own property. Property won't make me somehow more peaceful. In fact, one could argue that the concept of property rights are at the core of the Palestine - Israel issue. Since both people believe that they have a right to certain property, they will fight for it. Without such a concept of exclusory rights, the Zionists wouldn't need to push out the Arabs, and the Palestinians would have less interest in specific land.

In the Catholic Church we have SWEET, loveable little old ladies that spend their days praying for the conversion of the world to the Catholic Church. Dean, you seem in this paragraph to be a little old lady praying for the conversion of the world to Communism.

Pax to both sides. ;):D

graffic

7th April 2008, 21:15

Well, Jews also live peacefully beside Palestinians. Jewish settlers who live on stolen land, however, don't.

What a stupid thing to say, racist too. NEWSFLASH: Race does not dictate morality. Jews and (believe it or not Dean) Palestinians behave in an "un - peaceful" manner. Its a shame that someone who claims to be a leftist can only see one side of a conflict.

You're right that it is a tough issue now - at this point, there are Jewish families who have spent ~80 years on the same, stolen land. At this point, it would be hard to say that someone who was born and raised on such stolen land really owes anyone anything - at the same time, suhc old claims are not the most relevant ones. Theft of land has occured for millenia in various aprts of the world, but it only becomes a big issue when it hasn't stopped and is a recent memory.

Theft of land has occured for Millenia, Virtually every country is built on your definitio of "stolen land". In the Israel-Palestine case the "theft of land" argument is only taken seriously because of continued Terroism against Israelis. Terroism gets the conflict into the news on regular basis while places like Tibet, Darfur and numerous other examples are largely ignored - which are as bad, or in some cases worse than the Israel-Palestine conflict.

If the Palestinians are given peace, they will stop fighting - even if nothing else is done.History proves otherwise. Land agreements have repeatedly been used as rocket launching pads.

Dean

8th April 2008, 01:31

What a stupid thing to say, racist too. NEWSFLASH: Race does not dictate morality. Jews and (believe it or not Dean) Palestinians behave in an "un - peaceful" manner. Its a shame that someone who claims to be a leftist can only see one side of a conflict.
I didn't say that all Jews lived this way. I thought that was abundantly clear by affixing "settler" to the statement (thereby referencing only specific people) and further pointing out that Jews do indeed live peacefully with other Palestinians.

Theft of land has occured for Millenia, Virtually every country is built on your definitio of "stolen land". In the Israel-Palestine case the "theft of land" argument is only taken seriously because of continued Terroism against Israelis. Terroism gets the conflict into the news on regular basis while places like Tibet, Darfur and numerous other examples are largely ignored - which are as bad, or in some cases worse than the Israel-Palestine conflict.
And yet, in those places people don't ignore it. And the Palestinians don't ignore it. I wouldn't blame the Tibetans to attack Chinese military, and I don't blame the Tibetan riots on the Tibetans as much as Chinese Imperialism. And if it does indeed take violence to make people recognize a human's right to their home, as you imply, then there is little wrong with Palestinian resistance.

History proves otherwise. Land agreements have repeatedly been used as rocket launching pads.
History can only prove itself. Regardless, you further indicate how ignorant you are on the issue with such statements. Israelis have only used concessions given them to attack Palestinians, from the 1920s to today. Do they therefore not deserve peace?

Joby

8th April 2008, 02:08

we should end the zionist oppression of palestine not by nnuking the Isrealis, what we want is for Israel to be dissovled, the land given back to it rightful owners and everyone should co exist.

So, then, you're for the ownership of private property I take it; land in this sense.

Mod, can we get this guy RESTRICTED?

The Isrealis should withdraw form the settlments, tear down the wall, allow free access to hospitals and other important places.

What assurances have the Palestinians ever given that shows they will not use anything the Israeli's give them as a launch pad?

graffic

8th April 2008, 16:56

I didn't say that all Jews lived this way. I thought that was abundantly clear by affixing "settler" to the statement (thereby referencing only specific people) and further pointing out that Jews do indeed live peacefully with other Palestinians.

Exactly. You said that all Jewish "settlers" are violent. Which isnt true. Its also quite clearly racist.

And if it does indeed take violence to make people recognize a human's right to their home, as you imply, then there is little wrong with Palestinian resistance.

It doesnt take "violence" to recognise a right to someones home. And Terroism is in no way an acceptable form of resistance no matter what the circumstances.

Have you ever heard of Martin Luther King or Gandhi? Obviously not.

And what is this "right" you are talking about? You mean that a certain persons race should dictate where or where not they live? Why are you posting Nationalist rhetoric on a Revolutionary Leftist forum?

-To anyone else reading this, this is Dean by the way.. The revleft comedian who has come out with stuff like; "The Middle Eastern conflict has nothing to do with race or religion"and "There should be no Jewish state".

Next time you feel the need to comment on a subject you have no knowledge of whatsoever, atleast make it slightly amusing..

I
am
a

crack wizard!

Judging by your replies something like that would make more sense.

Israelis have only used concessions given them to attack Palestinians, from the 1920s to today. Do they therefore not deserve peace?

Do you have any evidence for that statement? Since when has Israel used concessions to "attack" Palestinians. The IDF (Israel Defence Force) is there to protect the Jewish state. The IDF evolved to what it is now thanks to racist Arab aggression against Jews and the Jewish state.

There are many examples, proven by historical fact, that Israeli land concessions have been abused by the reactionary wings of the Palestinians cause to attack Israel. A more recent example is Gaza, just watch the news once in a while.

Andy Bowden

8th April 2008, 17:41

Yes, a "defence" force that bombs (http://www.pgftu.org/En/?cat=view&Id=53) a Trade Union HQ in Palestine.

graffic

8th April 2008, 18:46

I'm not here to apologise for Israeli war atrocities. My point was that Arab aggression militarised Israel.

Andy Bowden

8th April 2008, 19:28

What "Arab aggression" was the PGFTU engaged in?

It was a deliberate attack by the IDF on an institute of Palestinian society, which has in fact organised strikes against Hamas over wages.

There are volumes upon volumes of evidence collated by dozens of NGOs, human rights organisations and governments in the world. Its not "isolated incidents".

Its a very deliberate planned war and terrorising of the Palestinian population, not just Hamas or the right-wing elements, real or imagined.

redSHARP

8th April 2008, 21:47

both governemnts of israel and PA have put road blocks in the peace process. israel is trying to starve out Hamas who still abids to the idea that israel needs to go. Fatah of the west bank is all for peace and compromise but each side wont comprimise on key issues such as the jerusalum and the palestinian refugees being allowed back in. people put the idea out that a one state is the way to go. that is not going to work, didnt work back with the british mandate and doing so is inviting a civil war. Israel needs to show a humane side (massive aid and curtailing reactionary trends), while the palestinians need to eliminate hamas, so when a palestinian state is declared, religious radicals wont take over, ultimately it will take time. personally i support both in their right to reach peace, and i respect both people to exist.

Dean

8th April 2008, 22:03

I'm not here to apologise for Israeli war atrocities. My point was that Arab aggression militarised Israel.

Israel had been militarized long before the creation of the state entity. It was private militias that formed the state; orthodox Jews who opposed militant zionism refused to join the Israeli state when it was created. Israel has always been a military organization, it has nothing to do with defense and everything to do with offence.

Dean

8th April 2008, 22:16

Exactly. You said that all Jewish "settlers" are violent. Which isnt true. Its also quite clearly racist.
No. I said "Jewish settlers that...". That is not racist, it is accurate; They regularly walk around with weapons and throw stones at palestinians who live or farm near the settlements.

It doesnt take "violence" to recognise a right to someones home. And Terroism is in no way an acceptable form of resistance no matter what the circumstances.
I didn't say that. I was describing how your argument can be used to support violence.

Have you ever heard of Martin Luther King or Gandhi? Obviously not.
If you like nonviolence so much, why are you supporting Israeli aggression? Ghandi said of the Holocaust that the Jews should have killed themselves in defiance of Hitler. Should the same logic be applied here to one side or the other?

And what is this "right" you are talking about? You mean that a certain persons race should dictate where or where not they live? Why are you posting Nationalist rhetoric on a Revolutionary Leftist forum?
Jsut the right to live where you were born, you fucking idiot.

-To anyone else reading this, this is Dean by the way.. The revleft comedian who has come out with stuff like; "The Middle Eastern conflict has nothing to do with race or religion"and "There should be no Jewish state".

Next time you feel the need to comment on a subject you have no knowledge of whatsoever, atleast make it slightly amusing..

Really? I haven't seen you refer to a single historical fact in your posts. You are unbelievably pushy with ideas that are amazingly far from reality.

Do you have any evidence for that statement? Since when has Israel used concessions to "attack" Palestinians. The IDF (Israel Defence Force) is there to protect the Jewish state. The IDF evolved to what it is now thanks to racist Arab aggression against Jews and the Jewish state.

There are many examples, proven by historical fact, that Israeli land concessions have been abused by the reactionary wings of the Palestinians cause to attack Israel. A more recent example is Gaza, just watch the news once in a while.
Why should I give you proof? I am giving an example of how an unfounded remark of your is more applicable to the Israeli state, and I need to prove my statement where you don't?

Your posts have been amazingly dry and lacking in substance. I am amazed that you can tell me I know nothing of a conflict I have been reading about every day for years, when you show nothing but the common, bland, U.S. - centric view on the issue. I would suggest you speak to Israeli citizens (as I have) to learn something of the conflict. Your posts are distinctly characteristic of a person who is completely disassociated from and ignorant of the conflict.