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abbielives!
26th March 2008, 21:51
It's such fucking bullshit, the only reason the Feds have been able to crack any of the ELF cells is because people rolled over!!!

The below post was taken from a Friends of Marie Mason update.

We have just been made aware that Frank Ambrose, one of Marie Masons co-indites has plead guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit Arson. Page 10 point 7 of Franks plea agreement states in part that "The defendant agrees to fully cooperate with the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the signatory US attorneys offices in their investigation of the charges contained in the indictment as well as the investigation of crimes for which they have actual or apparent jurisdiction."

The complete plea agreement can be found at www.midwestgreenscare.org (http://www.midwestgreenscare.org/). We will continue to release any and all confirmed relevant information as it becomes available.

Love and Rage,
Got Your Back
Friends of Marie Mason
P.O. Box 19065
Cincinnati, OH 45219

abbielives!
26th March 2008, 22:01
ANTI-INTERROGATION

I. ARREST
Most volunteers are arrested on or as a result of a military operation. This causes an initial shock resulting in tension and anxiety. All volunteers feel that they have failed, resulting in a deep sense of disappointment. The police are aware of this feeling of disappointment and act upon this weakness by insults such as “you did not do very well: you are only an amateur: you are only second-class or worse”. While being arrested the police use heavy-handed `shock` tactics in order to frighten the prisoner and break down his resistance. The prisoner is usually dragged along the road to the waiting police wagon, flung into it, followed by the arresting personnel, e.g., police or Army. On the journey to the detention centre the prisoner is kicked, punched and the insults start. On arrival he is dragged from the police wagon through a gauntlet of kicks, punches and insults and flung into a cell.

What A Volunteer Should Do When Arrested

1. The most important thing to bear in mind when arrested is that you are a volunteer of a revolutionary Army, that you have been captured by an enemy force, that your cause is a just one, that you are right and that the enemy is wrong and that as a soldier you have taken the chance expected of a soldier and that there is nothing to be ashamed of in being captured.

2. You must bear in mind that the treatment meted out to you is designed to break you and so bleed you of all the information you may have with regard to the organisation to which you belong.

3. They will attempt to intimidate you by sheer numbers and by brutality. Volunteers who may feel disappointed are entering the first dangerous threshold because the police will act upon this disappointment to the detriment of the volunteer and to the furtherment of their own ends. Volunteers must condition themselves that they can be arrested and if and when arrested they should expect the worse and be prepared for it.

II. INTERROGATION

After the prisoner has been placed in a cell, he may be left for some time alone. During this lull, police officers, `The Interrogators`, will crowd around the outside of the cell door from time to time, shouting threats and insults, telling the prisoner what they will do to him when they go into the cell.

After some time the interrogators will enter the cell and ask the prisoner to make a confession. During this period he may be subjected to assaults and abusive language, depending on the circumstances surrounding the charge. At this stage he will be fingerprinted and other questions will be put to him, related to the specific charge or other charges. Usually his name and address will be taken, place of employment, occupation, educational standard and so forth. After this he will be again isolated in his cell while his `interrogators` check his identity, usually with local police, his home and place of employment. In this period of time the police will attempt to establish his political beliefs, if any, his associates, his police record, if any, and in this way build up a file on him.

Most probably `his associates` and general pattern of movement will give a pretty good idea to the police, if the person is involved in or is sympathetic to a political organisation. Armed with this body of information the police will re-enter the cell and accuse the prisoner of all sorts of activity. If the evidence does not indicate a degree of guilt on the specific charge, he will be accused of all kinds of vague activity.

The purpose of these vague accusations is to implant a feeling of guilt in the prisoner. If, however, the police have some evidence or strong beliefs, linking him with a specific charge, pressure will be applied immediately. This pressure will take the form of physical and psychological torture, most probably he will be punched and kicked around the cell while they scream at him to make a confession, indicating to him that they know all. One or more of the interrogating officers will act in a particular and brutal manner, if they fail to get a confession or on admission of guilt they will leave the cell, telling the prisoner they will be back and threatening him with the most barbaric forms of torture, implying that they extracted confessions from better men than he.

Another set of interrogators will enter the cell, possibly carrying a file with the prisoner’s name written on it. They will act quite friendly and sympathetic towards him, telling him that they do not condone the activity of the previous interrogators, that they were mad, crazy and possibly they will kill him when they come in later, they will go to extremes to impress the prisoner of their own sympathy towards him, and ask him to make a confession to them indicating that they do not want the previous interrogators `to get at him again`.

They will probably guarantee him that if he makes the confession they will not allow the former interrogators to re-enter the cell, this will be coupled with a warning that otherwise they cannot guarantee him safety. When the prisoner refuses to confess they will pretend to become very annoyed and disappointed at his lack of co-operation. They may strike him across the face or in the stomach while telling him that he ought to be thankful to them, that they saved him from the previous interrogators and indicating that his behaviour and attitude is a thankless way to repay their kindness.

The interrogators will then open up a file and pretend to read extracts from it, related to the prisoner’s past life and activities, even the most intimate and private aspects of his life will be read to him, and possibly a general account of his movements and associates. Most of this information may have been supplied by his friends, employer, school, family, or girlfriend, it may also be `Pub Talk`, local gossip, information supplied by touts or information extracted from other prisoners. This detailed information is designed to frighten the prisoner and to shatter his confidence in his associates and organisation. If, however, they get no confession, they will leave the cell, but before doing so they will give the prisoner their names and tell him to ask for them at any time he wishes to, again indicating that the next set of interrogators are crazy, drunk, and will do him severe damage, then they leave the cell.

After a period of time another set of interrogators will enter the cell, again these interrogators will be particularly brutal and nasty towards him. They will attack him immediately in a most hostile and vicious manner, suggesting to him that if he did not confess to the former interrogators he will confess to them, they will let him know that they have a reputation for getting confessions from people like him, implying that everyone they met confessed before they were finished with them.

The torture used will now take on a three-fold purpose:

1. Physical Torture.

2. Subtle Psychological Torture.

3. Humiliation.

1. Physical Torture

The physical torture will be in the form of beatings, kicking, punching and twisting of limbs, it may even be burning from cigarette ends.

2. Psychological Torture

This will be in the form of threats to his family, his friends and himself, e.g. threats of assassination and threats to castrate him

3. Humiliation

This takes the form of stripping the prisoner of his clothes and remarks passed about his sexual organs. This period of interrogation may last for as long as two hours or more and at the end of that period they may produce a factual or faked confession from an associate. Failing to get their confession they leave the cell, telling him they will be back and when they do come back they will break every bone in his body.

This process can continue for seven days without a break, the minimum of sleep is allowed and if they deem it necessary, no sleep will be allowed. Lack of sleep causes the prisoner to become confused.

Because of the existing laws which authorise the police to detain a person for seven days, it means in effect that the process of interrogation can continue to disorientate their victim, due in the main to lack of sleep.

Interrogation can have many different phases, depending on the evidence or information which the police have gathered. It is obvious that a volunteer captured carrying out an operation is already seen to be guilty, especially if captured with a weapon, bomb etc., in this case the police have all the evidence needed to obtain a conviction and interrogation becomes unnecessary. Most likely the volunteer will be beaten up in the police stations for what he has done, not for what he knows, if interrogated under these circumstances it will be to get information on the organisation to which he belongs and on his comrades. Another shady aspect directly related to interrogation is blackmail and bribe. When the police cannot obtain a confession they may attempt to blackmail the volunteer, this may be in the form of threats to spread scandalous stories about the volunteer, stories or threats may be designed to hit at the character of the volunteer such as a threat to tell his comrades or his organisation that he told everything or that he had been working for them for years. The other phase of this shady interrogation is bribe. A volunteer may be promised money, a passport and a safe passage to any country he so desires if he co-operates.

THE INTERROGATION - ANALYSIS

The best defence in anti-interrogation techniques is to understand the techniques as practised by police forces. The purpose of interrogation is to get a confession. If the interrogators knew what they were searching for there would be no need for interrogation, therefore interrogation is necessary only when the police are unaware of information, which would lead to a conviction. The best anti-interrogation is to SAY NOTHING. All police forces work from a story, suspicion or clue, therefore when a volunteer is arrested they strive to build on that clue, on that suspicion and the only way that can be done is to obtain information from their victim. They usually start by questioning their victim, writing down a recording of what he says, comparing this information with information already in their possession, looking for differences which contradict the information previously gained, going back to their victim, pointing out these differences, resulting in the victim changing his alibi in order to suit this difference. The police will again check this new story with other information and again look for a difference or mistake narrowing the prisoner’s alibi down until finally it breaks. All of these changes in his statements will be recorded and used as evidence against him, evidence which will without doubt be accepted by the court and so lead to his conviction. This cannot be over stressed: when arrested SAY NOTHING. Ask to see your solicitor and doctor immediately and keep on doing so.

DO NOT INDULGE IN CONVERSATION WITH THE POLICE.

After the prisoner had been placed in his cell, we have seen earlier in the lecture how the police had crowded outside the cell door shouting insults and banging on the door. The purpose of this exercise is to frighten the prisoner and so arouse anxiety in their victim. When anxiety has been aroused all natural, rational defence barriers break down or weaken. When this happens the prisoner becomes irrational and becomes more prone to interrogation, in other words an anxious man is easier to intimidate by interrogation than a cool, calculating person. During the time the prisoner is left alone in the cell he should, in as far is as possible, ignore the police, the threats and the insults and he should marshal all facts surrounding his arrest. He should bear in mind that he can be detained for no more than seven days if he remains silent or possibly years in prison if he speaks. Most volunteers speak from a sense of fear thinking mistakenly that if they speak, torture or ill treatment will not be used. It is a recorded fact that interrogators are guided by a simple rule of thumb: `If a prisoner won’t speak he may be innocent and interrogation may be a waste of time, if he speaks a little there is always more and so interrogation is necessary`, therefore the prisoner who speaks a little in order to avoid abuse is in effect inviting more abuse from his interrogators who will always assume there is something more. Therefore the best defence is to remain COOL, COLLECTED, CALM, and SAY NOTHING.

We have seen earlier in the lecture how the first batch of interrogators will enter the cell usually insulting, shouting and beating the prisoner. Volunteers should understand that this first batch of interrogators usually fingerprint, ask name, address etc. At this stage a little is known about the prisoner and therefore the task of the interrogator is to identify him positively. Again the prisoner must bear in mind that everything he says will be recorded and compared with existing information in the possession of the police. The purpose of abusing the prisoner at this stage is called the `softening up period`, usually one or more will act in a particularly nasty manner. This interrogation may last not more than one hour and is only a preliminary investigation. The purpose of using heavy-handed techniques and sheer hostility is an opening for the following batch of interrogators, whom we have seen act in a particularly sympathetic manner.

This set of interrogators, we have seen, acted in a friendly and sympathetic manner towards the prisoner, offering him cigarettes and friendship. Volunteers should be well aware and on guard against this feigned friendship. These interrogators pretend to be sympathetic towards the aims and objects of the movement, going to lengths to impress the volunteer, pretending that they too believe in a united Ireland. They will, no doubt, tell the volunteer that their father or grandfather was in the same organisation and that they were forced by economic circumstances to join the police force and they are now merely passing the time until they are pensioned off. They will try to convince the volunteer it is in his interest to make a confession to them in order to escape from the previous interrogators who, they claim, are anti-Republican and no and are not interested in getting a confession but are only interested in beating the prisoner up. The volunteer should understand that these seemingly kind police officers may be acting the tough cop with his comrades who had been or are arrested. Finally we have seen how these interrogators, pretending to become upset, had stretched forward and beat the volunteer about the face and body, declaring that their advice and friendship was being returned or repaid with a stubborn attitude and a refusal to make EVEN A PART OF A CONFESSION. This technique is as old as police forces, they attempt to win over the friendship and trust of the prisoner, hoping that if their prisoner falls into that trap he will become upset, not so much at the punching about the face which he received from them but at his own refusal to co-operate: this perhaps is the most dangerous type of interrogation and one which leaves the prisoner in a psychological vulnerable position.

Another technique is called TOP SECRET FILE TECHNIQUE, this involves the interrogators bringing into the cell a file with the prisoner’s name printed on it. The police will open this file in the presence of the prisoner as we have seen earlier in the lecture. They proceed to read from this file parts of the prisoner’s past life, even to the most intimate details and a general account of his movement and friends, especially those associated or known to have contacts or sympathies with a political organisation, e.g., Sinn Fein. They also have information gathered from various sources such as employer, neighbours, PUB TALK OR LOCAL GOSSIP. Very often the PUB TALK and gossip is factual, this arises from the volunteer or volunteers in general speaking in pubs under the influence of alcohol, telling close friends and girlfriends and boasting in a bravado manner about their exploits and the exploits of others. This type of bravado is POSITIVELY DANGEROUS, not only to the volunteer and his associates but to the Movement in general. Another dangerous aspect of interrogation is `an associate’s confession`, this involves an interrogator approaching the volunteer with a signed or unsigned, factual or unfactual confession of an associate. Volunteers must understand, (in the first place) this confession may be a hoax and in the second, even if it is a factual confession of his associate, this confession is not an indication of guilt and will not be accepted in court unless his associate who made the confession is prepared to turn State or Crown witness and is prepared to swear its truth in the witness box. Very often a volunteer may break under severe physical and psychological torture and make a confession, but rarely is prepared to turn Crown or State witness and swear against his comrades. If this technique is employed by the police DON`T FALL FOR IT, it is a trick to weaken the volunteer and so get him to make and sign a statement.

Another dangerous technique employed is bringing the prisoner who made a statement into the same room as the volunteer who refuses to co-operate, usually they are left on their own and the prisoner who made a statement may try to entice his comrade to do likewise. If this happens to you always bear in mind that you are not alone because the room is always bugged and any talk is recorded. Another important point to bear in mind is when the prisoner who confessed and perhaps implicated you approaches, don’t launch a verbal attack on him because this verbal attack on him would be an implication of your guilt. Always speak friendly to him and suggest he must be mistaken, that he is ill and advise him to seek medical attention.

Another important point to be remembered and one which is extremely important, DON`T GET INVOLVED IN A POLITICAL CONVERSATION, this technique is a universal tactic and one which recurs repeatedly. When volunteers refuse to make a confession and when all other tactics of interrogation have failed, the police usually, if not always, attempt to get the volunteer to speak on political matters. This is a technique which many volunteers fail to recognise, its purpose is to fling the volunteer off balance, to sound out his political thinking, to break his silence and so make it easier for him to speak freely. This tactic has been used against volunteers and very often to their own detriment. When a volunteer has been arrested and the usual terror tactics used against him, this display of friendship has a weakening effect upon him and can be explained in psychological terms.

As we have seen earlier in this lecture, these seemingly friendly interrogators will give their names to the prisoner before they leave the cell, telling him that the next set of interrogators are crazy, anti-Republicans who are out to do him harm, they will tell him to call upon them at any time he so wishes and they will do their best to save him from brutal treatment. All volunteers must understand and understand in the clearest possible way that no interrogator is his friend, that they are the enemy, the instruments of coercion, the tools of suppression and a more dangerous enemy than the interrogators who will beat him up. These people act a part in a well-rehearsed play, and are using subtle psychological techniques in order to undermine the morale of the volunteer. All volunteers are well versed in brutal treatment as practised by police and the Army. They understand what physical torture means, but now you will have to understand the meaning and application of psychological torture, perhaps the term is an uncommon one, but its effects are far reaching.

We have seen earlier in the lecture how the ‘heavy squad’ now enters the scene and proceeds to attack the volunteer in a most vicious and brutal manner. This shock treatment is well rehearsed and is meant to push the volunteer into a physical and mental corner, in other words they hope that their shock treatment will knock the volunteer off balance, and off guard in the hope that he will confess. They will shout statements to the effect that they have a reputation for extracting confessions, that they have never yet failed and that he will not fool them. Now we must analyse this approach, the first thing of importance we note of importance is the shouting in conjunction with the physical torture. The shouting as we shall see is a more important interrogation technique than the physical torture. Again, why shout? Why boast? Why tell the volunteer that they are experts at extracting information? This shouting and boasting is merely an assurance to the police that they can get a confession, it is the first obvious sign of their own weakness, a compensation for their own shortcomings and all volunteers should and ought to look upon this display as a modern war dance. Just as primitive people held war dances, and built totem poles in order to compensate themselves for their own known weaknesses, so two frustrated interrogators will shout and boast in front of the prisoner to compensate themselves for their own weakness. The best anti-interrogation technique when a volunteer finds himself in this situation, is to look upon the police officers as he would look upon primitive people, wearing the head of a dead animal, hoping that by doing this they gain the strength or cunning of the animal whose head they wear. All volunteers should look upon shouting, boasting policemen as they would look upon primitive people doing a war dance.

PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE

We have seen that this type of torture is widespread and usually in the form of threats to the volunteer in question, to his friends and family, threats to assassinate him, to blacken his character, to castrate him; loss of sleep, poor quality of food and continuous noise. This in conjunction with the physical torture and fear of physical torture builds up anxiety and borders on hysteria. All of this is designed to smash down the volunteer’s natural defence mechanism, usually a person held for a period of time, perhaps seven days, living in an environment of fear and indecision, constantly being threatened, cut off from all natural contacts, deprived of his usual social surroundings, lack of sleep etc. This can and does form disorientation and disillusionment: during this period the volunteer will get no sleep or very little sleep, living this type of vague existence for a number of days and can leave its mark and deserves an independent lecture.

[The sexual overtones of some interrogation techniques are graphically described in a section devoted to humiliation.]

HUMILIATION

We have seen that this type of interrogation technique invariably is stripping the prisoner of all his clothes and remarks passed about his sexual organs. Volunteers should be aware of the proven fact that clothes are an important aspect of the individual’s character or make up. By removing his clothes the interrogators hope to remove the volunteer’s character and make up, psychologically this is symbolic and by doing this the police like to humiliate the volunteer and so lift away the barriers, just as they find barriers preventing them from getting a confession. A person’s clothes become symbolic of this barrier and by removing them they hope to remove the natural defence mechanism of the volunteer.

The second part of the humiliation is to pass derogatory remarks about the volunteer’s sexual organs. This is quite common in all police stations, North, South, and in England. Volunteers should attempt to understand the mentality which underlies this act and so be better prepared to meet this angle if and when it happens to them. Just as they removed the volunteer’s clothes, which symbolised a defence mechanism or natural barrier, so too by passing derogatory remarks about the volunteer’s sexual organs they attempt to humiliate the volunteer and by so doing to weaken his will to resist. The mere act of doing this has deeper undertones than one would guess. Volunteers should understand that from a psychological point of view this act is called a penis complex. This complex is inherent in the homosexual and although the interrogators themselves may be married men with a family it indicates suppressed homosexual tendencies. When the volunteer realises and understands this proven fact he should not have great difficulty in triumphing over his interrogators. He should look upon them as homosexuals with the immunity of the establishment, as people who become sadistic from the homosexual tendencies, which underlie them.

The police sometimes attempt to use blackmail and bribe in the last vain attempt to obtain a confession. All volunteers should ignore this type of carrot dangling. Blackmail rarely works effectively and can backfire against the police in libellous action and so bad publicity. Bribe never works, despite the fact that a volunteer may be offered money and protection in exchange for information. He should bear in mind that when he is of no further use to the police they drop him and the protection means nothing, for example, Kenneth Lennon.

[Lennon was found dead in a ditch after the IRA tracked him down - in England.]

While being tortured in a brutal, physical manner it is important that a volunteer should consolidate his position, he should realise that it’s seven days if he keeps silent, perhaps seventeen years if he speaks. It’s no easy thing to dismiss physical torture as a small or meaningless thing. It is by no means small and by no means meaningless to the receiver. From time immemorial, from histories recorded as far back as the Babylonian Empire up through the days of Imperial Rome, from the Spanish Inquisition to Nazi Concentration Camps, Free State and British police stations, come stories of how people coped and defeated the attempts of police to beat information from prisoners.

One notable technique was the prisoners’ ability to form images in their minds or on the surrounding walls. People who were brutalised found that by directing their powers of concentration away from their interrogators and diverting it to images formed in their own mind they could in effect overcome the physical pain. Some people pictured images in their own mind or in the mind’s eye, this picture may have been a flickering candlelight, a leaf or a flower, but by concentrating upon it, by building it and by stabilising it, it seemed to attract their concentration so strongly in fact, that the physical abuse became meaningless. This mental exercise is called by some psychologists ‘mind over matter’ and is said to be a highly successfully and invincible anti-interrogation technique.

Little is known of the laws surrounding this technique but all authorities associated with its research maintain that people under severe physical and mental pressure seem to adapt themselves to this state. People without previous experience or knowledge of the subject, but who under interrogation stumbled across this technique maintained that it worked but they did not know why.

Again, some people found that by staring at a certain spot on a cell wall they experienced a similar sensation. It may be that the ancient Indian practice of Yoga has close or similar sensations, but one thing is certain is that when a person’s concentration is directed away from his interrogators he seems to triumph and perhaps torture is a method employed by police to hold the prisoner’s attention on them. This advice should be at least considered by volunteers.

In conclusion, if and when arrested:

SAY NOTHING, SIGN NOTHING, SEE NOTHING, HEAR NOTHING.

A technique at present being practiced by the Brits and Police is one of shock aimed psychologically. This involves exposing blown up photographs, usually of dead bomb victims, dead soldiers and policemen and more often than not the corpses of the suspect’s comrades. The technique behind this tactic is to arouse emotions of hysteria in the suspect and by doing so to disorientate him temporarily. All volunteers must understand and be fully aware of the anxiety, the shock and the hysteria it can arouse in the unprotected suspect.

By understanding this technique and by looking at it logically and the tactic behind it, volunteers should be ready to meet the situation of that nature with confidence, in the knowledge that its purpose is to shock the volunteer into confession. Another tactic of this nature is throwing the limb or limbs of a corpse into the cell of a suspect. To the best of our knowledge this tactic has only been used once, but successfully, again in the Miami Showband case.

[Members of the Miami Showband, a popular group from the Republic, were ambushed and murdered during the wave of sectarian assassinations in Armagh in the mid-1970’s by the UVF. 3 members of the band were murdered and 2 injured. 2 UVF members died in their botched attempt to blow up the band’s bus as they tried to destroy the bus and bodies with bombs.]

The best protection while being interrogated is LOYALTY to the Movement. This implies LOYALTY to all YOUR COMRADES and PROTECTION of all members of the Movement, a deep and unmoving POLITICAL COMMITMENT to the ideas of the Socialist Republic, CONSTANT AWARENESS that you are a REVOLUTIONARY with a sound POLITICAL base, NOBLE and JUSTIFIABLE CAUSE, and a deep and firm belief that those holding you and interrogating you are MORALLY WRONG, that you are SUPERIOR in all respects, because your cause is RIGHT and JUSTIFIED

http://uk.geocities.com/oglaigh_na_heireann32/THE_GREEN_BOOK.html

bcbm
27th March 2008, 00:59
People will continue to snitch as long as there are no consequences for snitching.

mykittyhasaboner
27th March 2008, 01:23
People will continue to snitch as long as there are no consequences for snitching.
which means there will always be snitching, traitors are unforgivable.

Lector Malibu
27th March 2008, 02:04
People will continue to snitch as long as there are no consequences for snitching.

This is true. Although worldwide for the most part from the underworld to the fight for human rights one constant remains true , "snitches get stitches " if you flip or rat and get off free consider your self lucky....

bcbm
27th March 2008, 02:43
This is true. Although worldwide for the most part from the underworld to the fight for human rights one constant remains true , "snitches get stitches " if you flip or rat and get off free consider your self lucky....

Generally, in the recent US movements that have seen snitches (anarchist, ELF, ALF, etc) there have been no consequences for them.


which means there will always be snitching, traitors are unforgivable.

I wasn't talking about forgiving them. I meant physical consequences.

Wanted Man
27th March 2008, 10:16
Volunteers should understand that from a psychological point of view this act is called a penis complex. This complex is inherent in the homosexual and although the interrogators themselves may be married men with a family it indicates suppressed homosexual tendencies. When the volunteer realises and understands this proven fact he should not have great difficulty in triumphing over his interrogators. He should look upon them as homosexuals with the immunity of the establishment, as people who become sadistic from the homosexual tendencies, which underlie them.
That's news to me. I'm sure that the above is backed up by thorough scientific research. :rolleyes:

Anyway, sucks to hear that.

chegitz guevara
27th March 2008, 15:15
I'm with De Baron, what a crock of shit.


Volunteers should understand that from a psychological point of view this act is called a penis complex. This complex is inherent in the homosexual and although the interrogators themselves may be married men with a family it indicates suppressed homosexual tendencies. When the volunteer realises and understands this proven fact he should not have great difficulty in triumphing over his interrogators. He should look upon them as homosexuals with the immunity of the establishment, as people who become sadistic from the homosexual tendencies, which underlie them.

Oh noes, teh homosexuals!

Wanted Man
27th March 2008, 16:04
The source of that piece is the IRA's "Green Book". Interesting as a historical document, but nothing more than that. Today, things will likely go much differently. Despite the obvious stress of being arrested, torture will not usually happen* and your comrades aren't exactly going to kill you and dump you in a ditch for 'snitching' like during the Troubles. There is much more useful and up-to-date material on how to deal with that kind of thing.

*Of course, it's a matter of definition. People find it hard to believe that the 'free west' tortures. Today, it's more a part of mass repression. For example, it clearly did happen at the G8 in Genoa, when cops beat protesters under the watchful eye of Mussolini portraits. Or in Rostock (http://www.gipfelsoli.org/Multilanguage/3034.html) last year. But in reality, hardly anybody (if at all) on RevLeft will ever be exposed to serious and extended torture, and this old material is of historical information at best, and misleading and disinformational at worst.

pave_the_planet
27th March 2008, 20:29
snitches get stitches. nuff said. snitches are traitors of the worst degree.

i have no problem with someone having a change of heart and deciding that the life of a revolutionary is not for him or her, but to narc on your comrades? fuck that

Organic Revolution
27th March 2008, 21:15
To stop snitching, snitches need to face physical attacks, or else they will keep on rolling.

black magick hustla
27th March 2008, 21:38
who the hell cares about a few hippies snitching each other. i was reading that IRA piece without knowing its historical context and i laughed because it seemed too serious for a bunch of disgruntled greens blowing up college labs (like mine lol)

pave_the_planet
27th March 2008, 21:44
who the hell cares about a few hippies snitching each other. i was reading that IRA piece without knowing its historical context and i laughed because it seemed too serious for a bunch of disgruntled greens blowing up college labs (like mine lol)
that was intelligent...

Keyser
27th March 2008, 21:47
Any political movement, be it fascist, religious fundamentalist, socialist, communist or anarchist or primitivist/misanthropic environmentalist (like the ELF/ALF nutters) that faces the law and police will have it's snitches/traitors.

Of course such people should be punished (physically if possible) if they betrayed their own movements, anarchists selling their fellow anarchists to the police and the same for communists and socialists.

The only exception would be when a anarchist, socialist or communist gave information to the police under the duress of torture or the threat of death, in those cases I will not blame them for that given such circumstances. But for measely things like a reduced prison sentence or preferential treatment inside prison, that is not excusable.

Whilst I oppose the police and the oppressive arms of the bourgeois state as a threat to anyone who opposes it, be they members of whatever ideological movement, I could not care less for the reactionary cause of the ALF and ELF.

It's anti-working class, it poses no challange to capitalism and their ideals, if ever implemented (I hope they never are) would regress society and people, not to mention cause suffering for people with numerous medical conditions.

Colonello Buendia
27th March 2008, 22:12
A comrade of mine got treated really badly by the police, not as bad as green book would suggest but pretty badly, not to divolge information but to make sure she missed the bus back from a demo

Keyser
27th March 2008, 22:17
A comrade of mine got treated really badly by the police, not as bad as green book would suggest but pretty badly, not to divolge information but to make sure she missed the bus back from a demo


In cases like that, you friend should try to get a few fellow comrades to come along with her to other demonstrations and bring cameras etc...

If she or others suffer police brutality, then have your comrades film/photo it and then use that as evidence against them, should your friend ever want to take action against them or use such material in court for her defence.

RaiseYourVoice
27th March 2008, 23:04
In cases like that, you friend should try to get a few fellow comrades to come along with her to other demonstrations and bring cameras etc...

If she or others suffer police brutality, then have your comrades film/photo it and then use that as evidence against them, should your friend ever want to take action against them or use such material in court for her defence.
Doesnt work in my world. Policemen here are masked, do wear anything you could identify them by. For the case you could they take down cameras when they are directed at the police because it would somehow violate their personality rights (doesnt keep them from taping us of course)

this is munich, germany

Colonello Buendia
27th March 2008, 23:20
she's learnt her lesson, now she always goes to demos batshit crazy and with multiple comrades

black magick hustla
27th March 2008, 23:21
that was intelligent...

Yeah, and forgive me if i cant take too seriously someone with "militant lifestylist" as a member title (the same kind of disgruntled hippies)

chegitz guevara
27th March 2008, 23:29
I was a member of an underground communist organization. It was understood that if captured, you would eventually talk. Your duty was to hold out a few days, long enough for anyone whom you could harm to get away.

Reuben
27th March 2008, 23:44
Thankyou chegitz for injecting a bit of realism into the discussion. Its very easy to wish all manner of ills on those damn lousy snitches when you arent staring down the barrel of a 20 year sentence or whatever. As for me, I am honest enough with myself to say that I do not know how I would react in such a situation.

pave_the_planet
28th March 2008, 01:03
Yeah, and forgive me if i cant take too seriously someone with "militant lifestylist" as a member title (the same kind of disgruntled hippies)


irony --->

your head --->


i find it funny you call me a hippie. i know a lot of rednecks who do that too. its the same ignorance.

bcbm
28th March 2008, 05:16
I was a member of an underground communist organization. It was understood that if captured, you would eventually talk. Your duty was to hold out a few days, long enough for anyone whom you could harm to get away.

That sort of code really only applies to people captured in the heat of the moment. Paid narcs, etc will obviously nail you and you'll never see it coming. Furthermore, holding out "a few days" in the US is nothing. They rarely torture people, and in the case of the Green Scare its irrelevant.


Thankyou chegitz for injecting a bit of realism into the discussion. Its very easy to wish all manner of ills on those damn lousy snitches when you arent staring down the barrel of a 20 year sentence or whatever.

Don't get involved if you can't keep your mouth shut.

Vanguard1917
28th March 2008, 05:36
who the hell cares about a few hippies snitching each other. i was reading that IRA piece without knowing its historical context and i laughed because it seemed too serious for a bunch of disgruntled greens blowing up college labs (like mine lol)


Yeah, hilariously insulting to compare a heroic struggle for self-determination with a bunch of pathetic middle class eco-miserabilists.

So someone told on the ELF. Why should i give a toss?

black magick hustla
28th March 2008, 06:04
irony --->

your head --->


i find it funny you call me a hippie. i know a lot of rednecks who do that too. its the same ignorance.

maybe those rednecks are correct:crying:

black magick hustla
28th March 2008, 06:05
long live the grass and deer revolution

chegitz guevara
28th March 2008, 15:34
That sort of code really only applies to people captured in the heat of the moment. Paid narcs, etc will obviously nail you and you'll never see it coming. Furthermore, holding out "a few days" in the US is nothing. They rarely torture people, and in the case of the Green Scare its irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge

pave_the_planet
28th March 2008, 20:45
maybe those rednecks are correct:crying:

if anything im closer to a skinhead than a hippie.

abbielives!
28th March 2008, 20:56
Don't get involved if you can't keep your mouth shut.


amen to that.




ps- Hey Fuckguard1917, the green scare defendants were evenly split between middle and working class, and the first one to crack was working class...

bcbm
28th March 2008, 21:08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge

Everything I said still applies. This is the FBI, not the Chicago police and we're dealing with arsonists, not cop killers, arrested almost a decade after the fact, not within a month.

dez
31st March 2008, 13:20
I was a member of an underground communist organization. It was understood that if captured, you would eventually talk. Your duty was to hold out a few days, long enough for anyone whom you could harm to get away.


That was the general thought amongst the guerrilla in my country, it seems.
Brutal techniques were used and people often cracked in one or two days.
I wonder if the "contras" were extremely well trained by CIA or if the guerrillas hadn't enough anti-torture trainment.
My guess is a bit of both.


Excellent read, should i add.


And to those that think that phisical torture doesn't happen..
Bear in mind that the police can always take you to somewhere remote.
But they'd have to be the less obvious as possible, and i think that it would exclude a little bit the most brutal techniques, making psychological torture more effective.

I'd like to read more on anti-psychological torture techniques, if anyone has any book or extract they could share, please post at this thread.
:D

chegitz guevara
31st March 2008, 19:51
The single best technique for them to get you to talk freely is to treat you nice and agree with you.

bcbm
31st March 2008, 21:08
Saying your friends already ratted you out is quite popular too, as is putting a lot of pressure on you when you're first in prison, as it is much rougher than jail and people will not be able to think clearly.

abbielives!
1st April 2008, 03:04
as is putting a lot of pressure on you when you're first in prison, as it is much rougher than jail

really? i thought it was the other way round'