Let's make May 1st Remembering the Victims of Communism Day

[MagnusVolk]

Let's make May 1st, "Remembering the Victims of Communism Day."

This day, we should reflect upon the 100 million or so people butchered by the Communists in Russia, the former Ukraine, Eastern Europe, China and elsewhere.

We should remember the 80 plus million people killed in two World Wars which were fought to a very large degree to advance the interests of Communism.

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/blurbs/superman.jpg

In the spirit of honest and open exchange of ideas and in the sincere desire to keep such a horrific totalitarian system from taking foothold again, I post the following articles. These articles detail the unparalleled horrors of Communism, who was behind it, who financed it and who benefitted from it. Some of these suppressed articles have been suppressed for years.

Today, May 1st 2002, overt Communism may be dead in Russia, the Ukraine and Eastern Europe but it is still alive and well in China, Cuba, South Africa and other places. The people who preach Communist ideas are also very much alive on the campus of today's colleges and universities, in Hollywood and on Madison Avenue and in your government in Washington DC.

Let this be somber moment to reflect upon this, by far the most massive and atrocious criminal conspiracy in the history of the world.

THE HORROR AND MASS TERROR

Life in the Gulags (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/Life%20in%20the%20Gulags.html)

In Their Terror All Were Alike (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1996/zg9605/960531.html)

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/latvia/Latvia%20-%20Year%20of%20Horror_files/COVER.jpg

Latvia: Year of Horror (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/latvia/Latvia%20-%20Year%20of%20Horror.htm)

A Review of Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipelago I" (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/The%20Gulag%20Archipelago%20l%20(Book%20Review).ht m)

The Lies of Katyn (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/The%20Lies%20of%20Katyn.html)

Russia 1917-1918: A Key to the Riddle of an Age of Conflict (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/Russia%201917-1918.htm)

Comparing Auschwitz to the Gulags (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/Comparing%20Auschwitz%20to%20the%20Gulags.html)

THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE HORROR AND MASS TERROR

Perpetrators of the holocaust against Christian Russia (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/Jewish%20Communists%20The%20Documentary%20Record.h tm)

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/jews_behind_stalin/juden-hinter-stalin.jpg

The Jews Behind Stalin (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/The%20Jews%20Behind%20Stalin.htm)

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/images/bela1.jpg

Bela Kun: The 133 Days (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/Jews%20and%20Communism/Bela%20Kun%20-%20The%20133%20Days.html)

POWERFUL ANTI-COMMUNISM SPEECHES

The Greatest Mass Rape in History -- Kevin Strom -- 14.1 megs (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/mp3/1994%20--%20The%20Greatest%20Mass%20Rape%20in%20History.mp3 )

While We Slept -- Kevin Strom -- 1.83 megs (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/audio/1995%20--%20While%20We%20Slept.wav)

The Long March -- Kevin Strom -- 1.78 megs (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/audio/The%20Long%20March.wav)

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/blurbs/RPO_48_color_oliver.jpg

The Meaning of Americanism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- Listen live (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo19600318_The_Meaning_of_Americanism.pls)

The Meaning of Americanism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- 2.55 megs (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo19600318_The_Meaning_of_Americanism.mp3)

Informal talk about Communism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- Listen live (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo196106_Informal_Talk_on_Communism.pls)

Informal talk about Communism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- 15.8 megs (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo196106_Informal_Talk_on_Communism.mp3)

On Communism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- Listen live (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo196106_On_Communism.pls)

On Communism -- Dr. Revilo Oliver -- 10.6 megs (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Audio/rpo196106_On_Communism.mp3)

Superman, Volkswagen, and Lazar Kaganovich -- 1.42 megs (http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/072598.wav)

The Katyn Massacre -- 1.78 megs (http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/042498.wav)

Genocide at Vinnytsia -- 1.45 megs (http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/061398.wav)

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/blurbs/rape3.jpg

The Women of Monte Cassino -- 1.84 megs (http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/052497.wav)

[yuriandropov]

80 million killed in russia? wheres the bodies? where is your proof? what about the 100's of millions that have been killed by capitalism? what about hiroshima? nagasaki? world war 2 communist? you are very wrong. WWII was fought to advance the interests of nazism and the communist USSR defeated it. jews controlled stalin? read my post 'judaism and marxism'. communism dead in russia? read my post 'more proof of russia revolutionary spirit'. communism on south africa? what? communists in washington? what? where are you getting your information? south africa is anti-communist, jews and marxism don't mix (marx=anti-semite) and washington is anti-communist city number 1! you should re-think where you get your information from.

[MagnusVolk]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 7:00 pm on May 22, 2002
80 million killed in russia? wheres the bodies? where is your proof? what about the 100's of millions that have been killed by capitalism? what about hiroshima? nagasaki? world war 2 communist? you are very wrong. WWII was fought to advance the interests of nazism and the communist USSR defeated it. jews controlled stalin? read my post 'judaism and marxism'. communism dead in russia? read my post 'more proof of russia revolutionary spirit'. communism on south africa? what? communists in washington? what? where are you getting your information? south africa is anti-communist, jews and marxism don't mix (marx=anti-semite) and washington is anti-communist city number 1! you should re-think where you get your information from.

Actually, no one is claiming the Communists killed 80 million in Russia. I believe the true number is between 20 and 40 million. The Communist system was truly the most brutal and repressive form of tyranny in the history of the world.

Can you please elaborate on your claim the capitalists have killed all the people you say they did? I live in a capitalist society and as far as I know, the government never sent its goon squads to pick off large numbers of civililians and kill them for their political beliefs.

The closest thing the US has done in this regards was Waco, and that was the death of 80 plus innocents -- and NOT hundreds, thousands, and certainly not millions.

Also, please provide some evidence that Communism was NOT Jewish in origin. I am utterly unconvinced by mere assertion alone.

[PaulDavidHewson]

More people died during the building of Stalingrad then at the battle of the Somme.

[yuriandropov]

how communism was not jewish in origin? loo at the post 'judaism and marxism'. communism has a long history with anti-semitism. marx (although born in a jewish family and baptised a protastant) wrote two anti-semitic books 'the jewish question' and 'a world wothout jews'. lenin, although not an ant-semite, treated jews very badly when they turned there bac on him in the early days of the revolution. stalin purged all aspects of jewish culture and many jewish writers ecause of there links with trotsky. and the fact that jews were persecuted in the USSR after stalin aswell. in my post 'judaism and marxism' i give the reasons why some people think comunism was started for jews, but i also completely disprove the reasons. marxism has nothing to do with jews. marxism does not recongnise religion.

[Hayduke]

We never denied the horrors of Stalin, but does it makes communism a bad thing ?

http://www.ku.edu/~kansite/ww_one/photos/bin04/imag0302.jpg

These soldiers were fighting like lions to keep the world free from Nazi Scum in WW2, they lost millions of lifes but thats not important is it ?

No I agree the United States hasnt done anything, that is if you dont count the attacks on afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Cuba and many many more.

You might call it defending peoples freedom, I call it attacking people cause you dont agree with their politics and they might lose there control over the world.

SO Instead of posting nice anti commie books pictures come up with something real.

[MagnusVolk]

We never denied the horrors of Stalin, but does it makes communism a bad thing?

If a government selectively murders tens of millions of the best and brightest of its own citizens, how can anyone possibly think that that is that anything but a bad thing?

These soldiers were fighting like lions to keep the world free from Nazi Scum in WW2, they lost millions of lifes but thats not important is it?

Which side was more brutal? Which side killed more of its own people? Was the German National Socialist government created out of a vacuum -- or was it in response to some other circumstances or threats?

[yuriandropov]

if you are trying to denounce the inhumanity of stalin and at the same time, defend the inhumanity of hitler, i wouldn't bother. stalin killed for political reasons, hitler killed on the basis that he thought people were inferior to the aryan race, and therefore, deserved to die. remember his view on the disabled, 'lives not worthy of human life'. what a humane man! or was the holocaust communism's fault?

(Edited by yuriandropov at 8:15 pm on May 22, 2002)

[MagnusVolk]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 8:13 pm on May 22, 2002
if you are trying to denounce the inhumanity of stalin and at the same time, defend the inhumanity of hitler, i wouldn't bother.

I'm not defending Hitler. I'm explaining that the German National Socialists should be put on the proper historical context.

I would also like to ask why some holocausts are worthy of our commemoration but we are almost never reminded other other holocausts? Why is this so-one sided? Are some lives worth more than others?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 7:00 pm on May 22, 2002
80 million killed in russia? wheres the bodies? where is your proof? what about the 100's of millions that have been killed by capitalism? what about hiroshima? nagasaki?

YURI, hiroshima/nagasaki was our end to a war that japan started. We were attacked 1st, by surprize, rememmber? We responded to end the war. Also, those bombs saved more lives than they took. The alternative was a full scale conventional invasion of the Japaneze mainland, in which hundreds of thousands of forced japaneze civilian fighters would have been killed, as well as thousands of Japaneze and American military. Japan started it. We finished it.

[Nateddi]

Yes magnus volk, we advocate the death of millions of people.

Those here who don't are utterly misguided because we support the system that will undoubtably end up killing millions of people. :sad:

Nobody supports dictatorship and murder here, not even the so called "stalinist" minority.

Capitalism killed more people than (supposedly) "Communist" dictators anyway, from bad air conditions, pollution, dictatorship of US puppet states (southeast asian / central american sweatshop lands), unlivable conditions in US puppet states, hunger, poverty, lack of health services.

So cut the shit please, you know that you only piss us off, when in reality all you are doing is bad mouthing dictators which have nothing to do with marxism.

So fuck off

[yuriandropov]

magnus, the holocaust gets more attention for 3 reasons:

1-germany lost the war. history is kinder to the winners.

2-the nazis killed people for there ethnic identidy. not knowing if they had done anything wrong, just because of there ethniticity.

3-(i do not want to start another 'anti-semitic' debate again with any of you liberals but..) if you live in USA (and i presume you do), the media is basically controlled by jews. 3 out of the 4 major broadcasters are run by jews and they are respnsible for the distribution of most information in the USA. this means your going to get information from a fairly one sided angle.

anyway, its not like the 'US' media doesn't show coverage of stalins purges. the main reason they can't keep going on about it is there is no factuel evidence he killed all those people. and when they do focus on the 'purges', they often focus on the anti-semitic side of stalin (i'm not sure about the tv, but any US newspaper i read that has anything about stalin in, always focuses on his anti-semitism more than anything) coinsidence??.

[yuriandropov]

CI, imperialism isn't only an american trait you know. the reason USA got involved in the war was japanese imperialism. imperialism is a form of capitalism. if there was no capitalism, there would be no imperialsm, if there was no imperialism, there would be no pearl harbour, if there was no pearl harbour, there would be no hiroshima and nagasaki. i don't blame USA for dropping the bombs, i blame imperialism. but if i had to blame a nation, it would be japan.


(Edited by yuriandropov at 8:51 pm on May 22, 2002)

[Nateddi]

Volk, you are a fucking neo-nazi, and you WILL be banned.

http://www.jeffsarchive.com Nice neo-nazi source for your shit.

Go to hell and say hi to Hitler and his racist croanies for me.

[Nateddi]

The jews behind stalin...... LO fucking L

Go to TheLyceum.org (a neo-nazi forum), you will be happily aquainted with racist fools such as yourself.

[yuriandropov]

just so people don't get the wrong idea about my post on holocaust and call me an anti-semite. the main reason is reason 2. reasons 1 and 3 are minor reasons.

[MagnusVolk]

if you live in USA (and i presume you do), the media is basically controlled by jews. 3 out of the 4 major broadcasters are run by jews and they are respnsible for the distribution of most information in the USA. this means your going to get information from a fairly one sided angle.

No argument there:

http://www.jeffsarchive.com/media%20contro...s%20America.htm (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/media%20control/Who%20Rules%20America.htm)

[Nateddi]

Another Jewish conspiracy right?

All the damn Jews want to convert the coutnry to Judism.

All Jews aren't aryan enough, their beliefs and/or ethnicities must be eliminated.

This is anti-semitism, fellow board members, incase you thought you saw it before from other members.

[Xvall]

Quote: from MagnusVolk on 8:03 pm on May 22, 2002
We never denied the horrors of Stalin, but does it makes communism a bad thing?

If a government selectively murders tens of millions of the best and brightest of its own citizens, how can anyone possibly think that that is that anything but a bad thing?

These soldiers were fighting like lions to keep the world free from Nazi Scum in WW2, they lost millions of lifes but thats not important is it?

Which side was more brutal? Which side killed more of its own people? Was the German National Socialist government created out of a vacuum -- or was it in response to some other circumstances or threats?



(Major Sarcasm)

OH WOW!! YOU'RE RIGHT!
Stalin killed people, and he was a 'communist' so I guess communism is bad.

HEY!
While we're at it, both HIM and HITLER had mustaches! Let's go and attac anyone with a mustach, and anyonw with a German Name! Hey, there's a place called "Joe's Crab Shack" around here! Let's go shoot everyone in it! Those evil supporters of genocide!

Ooh! And Stalin liked vodka! Now we must SMASH anyone who dares to drink that vile fluid of corrpution! I guess we should crush YOU TOO, for posting pictures reminding us of that bad, bad, man!

- Drake Draciku

[Nateddi]

Drake dont bother, he is a nazi.

I know nazis, I am a member on a nazi forum, don't bother arguing with them, they hate communism (for strange reasons) more than capitalists hate communism. So don't bother.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:39 pm on May 22, 2002

Quote: from yuriandropov on 7:00 pm on May 22, 2002
80 million killed in russia? wheres the bodies? where is your proof? what about the 100's of millions that have been killed by capitalism? what about hiroshima? nagasaki?

YURI, hiroshima/nagasaki was our end to a war that japan started. We were attacked 1st, by surprize, rememmber? We responded to end the war. Also, those bombs saved more lives than they took. The alternative was a full scale conventional invasion of the Japaneze mainland, in which hundreds of thousands of forced japaneze civilian fighters would have been killed, as well as thousands of Japaneze and American military. Japan started it. We finished it.


Hmm.. HYPOCRITE!

Japan Needed Oil,
Japan was afraid of America spreading imperialism,
Japan attacks America,
America Kills over 400,000 Innocent Civilians when their nuclear bombs decimate three hostpials and an elementary school.
And it's considered 'okay'..

Yet for some reason,
America bombs the Middle East because of oil issues all the time..
And when the middle east attacks America, killing only about 3-4,000 people.
It considered an ACT OF EVIL, and America 'strikes back', killing another 6,000 innocent civilians, and it's OKAY..

Yeah,
Right...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Yuri, I can agreee with your statement, except for capitalism and imperialism being synonymous, there have been many oprresive regimes in history (old world UK, nazi germany, byzantine) that were not capitalistic but still imperial.

[Moskitto]

Er, you little nazi prick are a hipocrit who doesn't know his history.

2 World Wars to advance to interests of communist. Perhaps not.

The Bolshevik revolution occured in 1917. Russia soon withdrew from the war. WWI certainly wasn't to spread communism throughout europe. Communism didn't exist for 7/8 of it.

WWII. The soviet union stayed out of WWII except for invading Finland who repelled the invasion and came to a peace with the USSR. However it was Hitlers invasion of the USSR which promted the Soviet entry into the war.

Now I see you cite all those nazi sources (I don't use "neo-nazi" they're both the same, they both belong in a microwave oven.) I will cite a couple of nazi sources to show the contradictions and lack of historical knowledge within your microwave bound movement.

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovern...ments-USSR.html (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR.html)

yet

http://www.wcotc.com/jews/jew-occupiedgove...ments-USSR.html (http://www.wcotc.com/jews/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR.html)

Right, so they're Christian innocents, yet they're White innocents. Notice that these guys support Hitler who thought that the Slavic peoples of Russia were a slave race. And WCOTC hates Christianity. They can't even decide where they stand.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Actually drake, we cut japanese oil because they were spreading imperialism, we were not trying to extend our borders like they were. And I don't consider what they did evil. I understand that they were working in the interests of their empire, and any country would do the same thing. I'm just saying that they started the war, and we finished it, and saving more lives than we took. That is not hypocricy, check your dictionary.

[Capitalist Imperial]

And drake, you and I both know when USA accidently kills innocents, it is incidental collateral damage during legitimate military operations, not fanatics attacking only unarmed innocent civilials on purpose, like sept 11th, big difference, right? The us has never systematically killed civiliansn just to kill civiians like, hmmm, let me think.... STALIN!!!!! C'mon, drake, use critical thinking, not bad analogies that don't really work logically

[yuriandropov]

comrades, go to magnus volks' link. then you will realise the difference between my factual statements about jews in high places and true anti-semitism. i dislike the jewish culture and religion, they dislike the jewish race. i think jews hold important positions and possibly influence media information, they think jews are going to take over the world! i was waiting for someone like this to come on so to prove to you the true meaning of anti-semitism. he (magnus volk) hasn't said anything particularly anti-semitic, but jeffsarchive.com (his link) is nothing more than anti-semitic nonsense.

[Edelweiss]

Yuri, Nazi anti-semitism is of course much more vulgar and racist than Stalinist anti-semitism, though you still are an anti-semite.

[Xvall]

I can understand how the civilians killedin afghanistan were collateral dammage, but what about Iraq, which never attacked. People often say that they are a 'potential enemy', but that still wouldn't justify bombing Iraq. Indeed, they break certain UN policies,and Saddam Hussein is not a good person. But I do not believe it is an excuse for bombing people. Wouldn't some sort of assasination or coup be a better idea?

[Moskitto]

there have been many oprresive regimes in history (old world UK, nazi germany, byzantine)

the board member "Capitalist" said that the British Empire wasn't oppressive.

Well, banning people from meetings of more than 3, shooting a mass rally without warning, taxing salt heavily and arresting people for collecting it and putting people into concentration camps isn't oppressive is it.

However I fail to see how the British Empire wasn't capitalist since it was founded on commercial interests (East India Trading Company and the like.)

[yuriandropov]

the original british empire first put in place by henry VIII was not capitalist. all riches from the new world went to the government.

[komsomol]

I was going to talk about your two "Communist" world wars but Moskitto cleared that one up perfectly before hand.

As a Liberal Communist I too hate a lot of the features of the system in the U.S.S.R. However, your points although partly true (though exaggerated) resemble a unitelligent attack on the whole of Communism while not aknowledging the difference of opinion between the Authoritarian Communist, and the Liberal Communist ideologys.

This is just an attack on Communism with no substance, as you only partially dent Authoritarian Communism and leave no mark on Liberal Communism. Besides, we know all this, we have to asses the history and problems of the world, and if we have the right arithmetic and logic unit then we shall come to the conclusion that Communism is the answer, maybe not in the form Marx hoped, as I believe the human race has to evolve much before the state could just wither away leaving Anarchism which can't survive as people will take advantage of the feedom and if it was to survive it would have to be a global anarchism

As a tip for debating in the future, don't exaggerate, speak the truth, define Communism or you will fall flat on your face ...again.

[Hattori Hanzo]

You could make it a memorial day, if you were an idiot!!!!!!!
COMMUNISM HAS NO VICTIMS BECAUSE IT NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!!!!!!

Good job at banning this Cappie ass-hole, Malte!

[angry]

OMG!! CI!?!?!?!?
CI, what the hell are you saying man..? you just justified the attacks on hirosima and nagasaki..?
how is that possible, it is NOT!
japan "did a bad thing", true..but at least they mostly killed soldiers..
Amerikka killed innocent men, women, and children..!
they KNEW they were going to do it by bombing them..!
OMG?!?! this is outrageous..

[angry]

And ohh..I forgot..someone here said that amerikka doesn´t kill people for their political belives, what about Che and their atempts on Castro..???

[Menshevik]

More people were killed in the fire bombing of Tokyo then Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined. The dropping of the atomic bomb was totally unecessary. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not military targets--they were major ports and fishing industrial centers, thats it. All the evidence shows that Japan was on its last rungs and could not have continued the war for another month. Several reasons why the Americans dropped the bomb:

1)The Japanese were willing to surrender as long as Hirohito wouldn't be dethroned; the Americans wouldn't go for that. So they had to use more persuasive means to force a surrender on their terms.

2)The American military/govt. wanted credit for ending the war; what better way then to decimate three major cities in Japan.

3)They wanted to show the world the superiority of US scientific research and prove their worth as a super-power.

4)Most common people could see tensions between the USSR and America rising. Dropping of the bomb was to send a message to Stalin, "Don't get any ideas." Of course all it did was coax the Russians into founding their own Atomic Program eventually leading to the arms race and the Cold War.

5)They wanted to inflict suffering on the Japanese people as means of revenge for Pearl Harbor. It was a "Remember the Alamo" complex.

6)They wanted an excuse to reform Japanese economy and rebuild it like they did Germany's: US motto, "We destroy em', and then rebuild them for our benefit."

The dropping of the bomb and the nearly complete destruction of Tokyo was entirely symbolic. It had nothing to do with saving American lives, even though it would be nice to think it did. Again, the Japanese wanted to surrender, but the Americans wanted them to scream for "mercy" instead. The final irony is that HiroHito remained emperor, whoda' thought?

[Michael De Panama]

Go ahead and make it whatever day you want to make it. Why are you telling me? It's not like I'm going to defend mass murderers like Stalin for their pseudo-fascist regime.

I don't really see why you blame communism for the totalitarianism in Russia and China and Cuba. That's like blaming the socialists in Germany for the rise of the Nazis. Sure, the Nazis called themselves Nationalist Socialists, but does that accurately represent socialism? Only a fool would say so. Nazi Germany was fascist. The definition of what a fascist nation is and the example of Nazi Germany match up.

Now, why would you foolishly say that communism is to blame for the disguised fascism in Russia and China? Compare the definition of communism with China. Is China a system without social class? Run by the proletariat? Equal economic distribution?

You tell me how wanting equality is an evil thing, you little shit.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:45 pm on May 22, 2002
[quote]the board member "Capitalist" said that the British Empire wasn't oppressive.

Well, banning people from meetings of more than 3, shooting a mass rally without warning, taxing salt heavily and arresting people for collecting it and putting people into concentration camps isn't oppressive is it.

However I fail to see how the British Empire wasn't capitalist since it was founded on commercial interests (East India Trading Company and the like.)

Moskitto, read my post again, I said they were oppressive, not that they weren't, i agree with your post on britain. I disagree that they were very capitlistic, though, it was royalty and privliged that reaped the benefits of trade, not everyone could participate like USA

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from angry on 12:11 am on May 23, 2002
OMG!! CI!?!?!?!?
CI, what the hell are you saying man..? you just justified the attacks on hirosima and nagasaki..?
how is that possible, it is NOT!
japan "did a bad thing", true..but at least they mostly killed soldiers..
Amerikka killed innocent men, women, and children..!
they KNEW they were going to do it by bombing them..!
OMG?!?! this is outrageous..


ANGRY and MENSHEVIK,
The japanese were planning to used a forced civilian militia to defend against a conventional invasion of mailnland japan, had the US proceeded, it would have cost the lives of 100's of thousands of japanese civilians, not to mention US/Japanese military personel, WE SAVED MORE LIVES BY USING THE A-BOMB THAN WE WOULD HAVE INVADING!!! Also, japan never even considered surrender 'til ahter hiroshima. After we dropped the 1st A-Bomb, they wanted to "think about it", only after they allowed us to drop a 2nd bomb on their city (an act they knew would occur, their choice) did they formally request surrender. Read your history before you post. Empires should not attack a sleeping giant unless they want reciprocation 10-fold.

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 1:37 am on May 23, 2002)

[SU37]

After Peral harbor,If the japanese invaded in December 8th the day after peral harbor the japanese troops would have pentrated as far as texas before American Forces could stop them.Japanese didn't have the resources that America had,thats why Japan lost.Also If America did invade the home main land of Japan ,Japanese loses would be in the millions and American loses would be in the hundred-thousands.

[SU37]

Also Japan had the biggest battle ships.Japan bulit two super battle ships bigger then anything America bulit during the war.The Japanese super battleships had 18' guns and much wider then any other American battleship.

[Menshevik]

CI, you're the one that needs to read up on your history. First of all a civilian militia of who, women? That's besides the point. Truman did not authorize the bomb on the sole fact that it "would save American lives." This may have been true, would it have saved millions of lives, no. That's just blind speculation to say it would have, you're just not looking at the facts objectively. The bombs were dropped in almost immediate succession. How could the Japanese have responded in that time? And Hiroshima and Nagasaki were complete non-military targets--there was not one justified military target in either city. If anything caused the Japanese to surrender, it was the destruction of Tokyo (which no one even remembers today). You've only read one account of this history--an American textbook account--that's why you're certain that the A-bomb was necessary.

[Astrofro]

Bah my post is lost, it was because of the spread of communism for the most part, the USSR was right on Japan's heals

[angry]

CI, you are INSANE! now that is a fact..
Nobody not a sane person would justifie the "A-bombings" as you like to call them, if you "nessiseraly"(excuse my spelling) had to bomb them with atomic weapons (WICH YOU DID NOT) why didn´t you bomb military bases or something like that...
and don´t give my that crap about civilian army!?!?
To drop an atomic bomb on a non military target is insane! (just to drop a "A-bomb" is insane I don´t think you could have imagine the consiquenses of what could have been started..! NOBODY can justifie atomic attacks on cities or anything at all..! did you know america has about 2700 nuclear weapons..? you can destroy the hole world with half of that!!
America is constantly raising a fist to all of the nations in the world!

[yuriandropov]

if i was USA in '45 i would of dropped the bomb but not on non-military targets like nagasaki and hiroshima. the japanese would have formed a civillian army if a conventional invasion took place. the japanese were very loyal to the emporer (remember the kamakazes). USA also did it to warn off the USSR but it had the opposite effect as it made us more determined to get the a-bomb.

[komsomol]

Quote: from angry on 12:13 am on May 23, 2002
And ohh..I forgot..someone here said that amerikka doesn´t kill people for their political belives, what about Che and their atempts on Castro..???


So true, not to mention American intervention in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada....I could go on. Good point Angry.

[Menshevik]

Yuri, thats exactly what I was saying. Apart from my opinion on all nuclear weapons, the US was simply using the A-Bomb as a scare tactic. It s almost as if they wanted to show the world who was the "big brother" type from now on, esp. USSR. All it did though was to to make the Russians determined to develope their own bomb. Thank God no more nuclear weapons have been used since then.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from SU37 on 1:46 am on May 23, 2002
After Peral harbor,If the japanese invaded in December 8th the day after peral harbor the japanese troops would have pentrated as far as texas before American Forces could stop them.


I agree if the japaneze continued additional waves of attack they could have done more damage at pearl harbor, but actually most of the US pacific fleet was away on manuevers during the Pearl harbor attack. I don't think Japan would have made it even to the mainland, let alone Texas. The japaneze navy was impressive, with the largest ships, but american power, technology, and strategy was better, and our airplanes were tougher than japaneze 0's, better for carrier operations. mitsubishi A6-M "0" fast, capable plane, good against hellcat, but weak armor. When US pilots in chance-vaught f4-u corsair w/ 6 .50 cal cannons took to the air, it was over for the japaneze "0"'s, also "dauntless" torpedo and dive bombers decimated the japaneze navy, including their 2 digantic warships. Us navy ships too strong. F4-u corsair 1st airplane in history to fly 400 mph+, used R-2800 "double wasp" engine, much better even than rolls-royce merlin

[samaniego]

fUCK THIS IT'S ALREADY A, HOLIDAY. THE DAY OF THE WORKER. IT HONOURS THOSE WHO FOUGHT FOR AN 8 HOUR WORKDAY. MAYDAY. MAYDAY.MAYDAY

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Menshevik on 3:00 am on May 23, 2002
The bombs were dropped in almost immediate succession. How could the Japanese have responded in that time? And Hiroshima and Nagasaki were complete non-military targets--there was not one justified military target in either city. If anything caused the Japanese to surrender, it was the destruction of Tokyo (which no one even remembers today). You've only read one account of this history--an American textbook account--that's why you're certain that the A-bomb was necessary.


This shows you don't know what you're talking about. The 2 bombs were dropped over multiple days, not "immediate succesion?". So what country's textbook are you reading that said they were dropped in "immediate succession?" It is wrong, so obviously my "american textbook" is nore knnowledgable than yours. And the destruction of tokyo did not make japan surrender, the a-bombs did, and japanese leadership acknowledged that. It is amazing that the commies point to the US for bringing an end to a war we were forced into. The responsibility for nagasaki and hiroshima is ultimately that of japan.

[angry]

Were you forced to kill civiliance????
women, children, men?
who had no intesions of killing americans whatsoever???
answer me???

[SU37]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 9:19 pm on
I agree if the japaneze continued additional waves of attack they could have done more damage at pearl harbor, but actually most of the US pacific fleet was away on manuevers during the Pearl harbor attack. I don't think Japan would have made it even to the mainland, let alone Texas. The japaneze navy was impressive, with the largest ships, but american power, technology, and strategy was better, and our airplanes were tougher than japaneze 0's, better for carrier operations. mitsubishi A6-M "0" fast, capable plane, good against hellcat, but weak armor. When US pilots in chance-vaught f4-u corsair w/ 6 .50 cal cannons took to the air, it was over for the japaneze "0"'s, also "dauntless" torpedo and dive bombers decimated the japaneze navy, including their 2 digantic warships. Us navy ships too strong. F4-u corsair 1st airplane in history to fly 400 mph+, used R-2800 "double wasp" engine, much better even than rolls-royce merlin
No,only the carriers were out at sea,the rest of the fleet was bombed.Zero's can go high then anyother American aircraft.F4-u can still be shot down by a Zero.F4-u's are too heavy and are usally the low ones in the battle.F-4-u's may have really good armour but is useless against 20mm & 9.56MM rounds hiting the aircraft's engine afther another.An aircraft that has very very light armour is more likey to go faster and go higher.

(Edited by SU37 at 9:39 am on May 24, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from SU37 on 2:38 pm on May 24, 2002
No,only the carriers were out at sea,the rest of the fleet was bombed.Zero's can go high then anyother American aircraft.F4-u can still be shot down by a Zero.F4-u's are too heavy and are usally the low ones in the battle.F-4-u's may have really good armour but is useless against 20mm & 9.56MM rounds hiting the aircraft's engine afther another.An aircraft that has very very light armour is more likey to go faster and go higher.

(Edited by SU37 at 9:39 am on May 24, 2002)
[/quote]

A6-m zeros good against hellcat, but f4-U designed specifically to counter zero's, it was the "zero killer" heavier armor but still faster than zero's, more powerfull guns and more guns on each wing (3 on each), could climb faster than zero, and much more survivable, in WW2 dogfights, very few hits were scored on engine nacele, usually form behind, and f4-u much more survivable, WWII japanese veteran pilots will admit mitsubishi A6-M zero no match for Chance-Vought F4-U Corsair. Best fighters of WWII: F4-U Corsair, P-51 Mustang, P-38 Lightning

[SU37]

P-38 was a peice of garbage,the thing couldn't out fly Zero's.P-38 wasto slow and heavy.P-38 was a peice of trash from 1937.Also when the P-51 was first made it bad and had a shitty engine.P-51 was taken back to the states and re fitted with a Mustange engine.

[Capitalist Imperial]

You mean it was refitted with rolls-royce merlin, I know, but body style and survivablity on p-51 better than european, with underscoop radiator. Rolls-royce merlin stalls in steep climb, Pratt & Whitney r-2800 "double wasp" radial, in f4-u corsair was best aircraft engine of WWII,most hp, fastest, and would not stall at steep angles

[Capitalist Imperial]

Soviet YAK aircraft biggest piece of junk in WWII

[angry]

CI, why do not you answer my question..?

[Menshevik]

Oh cmon, ANgry; it's obviously much more fun to talk about who had the best airplane.

[death b4 dishonour]

it was the battle of midway that stopped japan from invading amerika. the only remnants of the pacific fleet... the carriers: yorktown, enterprise, lexington, and hornet and some destroyers and cruisers were a last like of defense versus the japanese pearl harbour attack fleet with some additional ships mixed in: akagi, soryu, and 3 other carriers. had the americans not stopped the japanese fleet by cracking thier code and using superior tactics, they would have been defenseless against the invasion. a seperate fleet was on standby, waiting for the word that the japanese had won the battle at midway so they could come in. most of that fleet were troop transports with some 15 000 japanese regulars on them.

[angry]

Menshevik, maybe, but I think he isn´t that stupid that he would try to say that they were forced to kill civiliance, so I kinda shut him down..:)

[Guest]

no shutdown, angry, i will answer your question

[angry]

okey, then do it!

[Wryter]

Hey, what's the deal with all this fascism? I thought this was a pro-Communist board.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 2:21 am on May 23, 2002
And drake, you and I both know when USA accidently kills innocents, it is incidental collateral damage during legitimate military operations, not fanatics attacking only unarmed innocent civilials on purpose, like sept 11th, big difference, right? The us has never systematically killed civiliansn just to kill civiians like, hmmm, let me think.... STALIN!!!!! C'mon, drake, use critical thinking, not bad analogies that don't really work logically



Check your history books. What about what the U$ did to the Native American Indians? We've never killed innocent civilians? Giving blankets to the Indians infected with smallpox is an attack on civilian population is it not?

What about all the civilians killed by indescriminate bombing in Vietnam? Is that not terrorism because we dropped bombs from planes? What about the My Lai (sp?) massacre? Was that just a military objective or was that terrorism? What is your definition of terrorism?

There are countless examples of the U$ targeting civilian populations.

[Sabocat]

Also CI,

The Japanese had been trying to surrender for months before the dropping of the atomic bombs. They had nothing left.

The atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were really nothing more than bad science experiments by the U$. One was a uranium bomb, and the other was a plutonium bomb. The U$ really wanted to see how different the destruction was and watch to see the deadliness of the radioactive fallout. It's other benefit was of course to showcase it to the world.

It was a direct targeting of civilians. There were even American POW's being kept in one of the towns and the military knew this and went ahead with the drops anyway.

[Liberty Lover]

A curse on the idiot who dug this post up!!!

[Wryter]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 1:25 pm on May 2, 2003
A curse on the idiot who dug this post up!!!

Why? Do you have a problem with exposing fascism? I believe that the best way to combat the fascists is to expose them in their own words and give them just enough rope with which to hang themselves.

Fascists hate exposure and they will fight exposure of their sinister ideas and motives much like vampires flee the night of the rising sun. Unlike you, I believe in giving the fascists a platform whereby they can discredit themselves ...

[Zombie]

holy crap a year later this thread emerges once again from the oceanic depths! ;)

[Pete]

I never realized this was an old thread until I read all the way through, so I will give my answer to the banterings anyways.


The Japanese wanted the CCCP to (insert word like 'negotiate' in meaning but more neutral here) peace between Japan and America, but since America had a deal with the CCCP that at the end of August (or the second week I forget the exact date) the CCCP would declare war on Japan and both armies would pincer Japan. Yet this would be like Europe, half of the Nation would be Socialist, and half capitalist. Of course that is not a good thing so the Americans nuked Japan twice, and really who was to say that it was coming or that America had any, or that the first one would work? It was all up in the air even for the Americans. And unnecassary since AMerica had broken the Japanese code and knew that they where looking for a neutral nation to broker peace...

[Sandanista]

Im glas this person brought this up, these countries were never communist, so those 100000000 or so victims, were victims of capitalism, BO!

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 8:00 pm on May 22, 2002
(marx=anti-semite)

Marx was a jew....