more proof of russia revolutionary spirit!

[yuriandropov]

in 1992 62% of citizens (fsu citizens) said they regret the fall of USSR

in 2002 79% of citizens said they regret the break up of USSR

in 1992 32% said the fall of USSR was a good thing

in 2002 10% said fall of USSR was a good thing

in 2002 80% say life was better in soviet days
in 2002 10% say life is better now than in soviet days

well, there you have it, these statistics were taken by the moscow times that isn't exactly a pro-socialist paper. these statistics clearly show the fond memoris of the USSR and another poll reads:
would you vote yes for a return of the hammer and sickle above the kremlin and a return of the USSR?
78% voted yes
15% said no
7% would't be interested

also, the figure about ages reveal something interesting. it has been known for a while now, that the majority of russians who want USSR back are 40+, but this is changing. the majority of anti-soviets still lye in the age group of 28-40, mostly from people who hold private sector jobs, but in poll for 16-22 year olds, the results are as follows:
71% would like a return to USSR days
25% would not like a return to USSR days
4% feel it would not make a difference to there lives

this is not a vote for a return to stalin, but it is a vote for a return to the old soviet symbology like the hammer and sickle and the USSR as a nation state. it also reveals the younger generation still hold communism in very high regards (more youngsters have joined kprf in last 2 years than all previous years!). here is a poem from a young russian:

On holidays that we observe here
OCTOBER, our birthday, stands out.
If workers would only surge forward
We'd show all what it's all about.

If only once again we'd hear it,
—Our slogans in a thunderous roar—
"All power to the working people
The bourgeois, bankers we abhor."

How all reasoning was deadened
Is really hard to comprehend;
What took years of hard construction
Bankers took all free in the end.

For them its banks, hotels and factories
Casinos, gardens and green grass;
For us its unemployment, slavery
With death staring at us through glass.

Remember former celebrations?
Adorned with flowers, finery?
We looked ahead with expectations,
We were a force, as strong as can be

While celebrating we did not notice
How water flowed out bit by bit;
How the people were all changing,
How they built a large snake pit.

How the Party all got mildewed,
Replacing the Bolshevik thought.
How the snouts began appearing,
High office for themselves begot.

All peoples' reasoning they deadened
With every poison that they know;
A noose around October tightened
By Judas "leader' Gorbachev.

Will people everywhere accept it?
Will be like cattle always been?
I'm sure there'll be one more upheaval:
A great--colossal--SEVENTEEN!!!

this poem shows that the russian prolaterat has not lost its revolutionary spirit. each seat that is taken away from a communist by a rightest in the duma makes more support for the communists. the USSR has not seen its last days!

[honest intellectual]

Wow, those stats are pretty surprising

[SU37]

Wow,pretty inresting.

(Edited by SU37 at 4:57 pm on May 21, 2002)

[Capitalist Fighter]

In 2000 Russian citizens voted for capitalism rather than communism! Think about that. If Russian's "regret" the break up of the USSR then surely they would have voted for a party that advocated such policies. By USSR you are implying all the annexed territorities that had communism forced upon them?

[yuriandropov]

capitalist fighter, you do not know the situation in russia. nobody voted for communism in russia because there is no communist party to vote for. kprf is a party mainly of symbols and flags. it shows just how much people value the past when 35-40% of voters vote for a party of symbols and flags.
you say people voted for capitalism, you have NO idea. do you think what you see in russia now is capitalism? the only difference is the economy is now owned by mafia not government. thats not capitalism, isn't capitalism meant to be about competition? the russian voters want stability. they don't particularly care if its through communism or capitalism, it just happens that 10 years of capitalism has brought misery, just look at the figures. russians are still giving 'capitalism' a chance though. in about 5 years, people will realise that capitalism in russia does not work.
i'll say again, russians want the USSR back, if there was a referendum, the hammer and sickle would wave again, but they want stability first. give it 5 years and most of the former union republics will be USSR again. that doesn't mean a return to stalinism though.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Yuri in the elections and Zieonmons, ( i know his name starts with z hehe) and his "communist party" did not receive the popular vote. Hence Russia, not only the workers or intellectuals, all of Russia voted for Putin and his capitalist policies. Because of capitalism Russia's economy grew 5% last year. It's steadily rising again after the collapse of communism and the mess it left it in. Capitalism will succeed in Russia, unlike communism.

[Nateddi]

Is the growth of the economy your (only) measurement for success.

Does the 30% of the population who were introduced to poverty after the collapse of the CCCP vote for economic growth?

You are just looking for blatant reasons to contradict the recent (note the word) growth of the popularity of the KPRF. Perhaps that "economic growth" did not help out the people whatsoever. The faster the economy grows in the US, the faster a company has enough money to move to Mexico and cause more unemployment.

[yuriandropov]

did you actually read my post? you are ignorant! capitalism is succeding in russia! have you ever been there? you are going on the western view of russia. the economy in russia is a disgrace. as soon as oil prices drop, russian economy will collapse.
what i am trying to say is this. russians want the USSR back, they don't want stalinism back! why can't you seem to understand what i'm saying. in the late 80's the USSR was socialist in name only. what most russians want, is the USSR back with prosperity in there country. eg if a capitalist said he was going to reform the USSR, he would get votes (depending on his other policies). saying you want USSR back is not saying you want stalinism back. soviets want old symbology because it reminds them of superpower status and they feel patriotc. do you understand? like if USA went communist now and they were't a superpower, many USA citizend would want the stars and stripes for a flag because it makes them feel patriotic.
BTW zugnanov didn't get the votes because russians are still giving putin a chance (his popularity is dropping though).

[Nateddi]

Þðèé, oí íå ïîíèìàåò Ðîññèéñêóþ ýêîíîìèêó :biggrin:


(Edited by Nateddi at 1:14 am on May 22, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

They are just frustrated because they realized they actually have to work hard and earn your way in a capitalist nation, they want to go back to the lifeless existence of government control and care! LOL, just kidding, Come on, we know converting from communism to capitalism takes a long time, and there will be growing pains. The russian people are actually very strong and persevering, and they will succeed in freedom and democracy, but you have to be strong, smart, and persistent. We americans have learned this. Capitalism is the best system going, you just have to work hard at it.

[Nateddi]

CI, you spew out your idealist propaganda, so please stop. Russia is in a completely different situation. In America it is extremely hard as it is to build your way up from anything, in Russia it is impossible.

So cut with the idealist capitalism = hard work bullshit. Its obvious that you don't know the situation, and don't realize everything that has happened to Russia in the last 10 years.

[Capitalist Fighter]

I admit and have aknowledged that Russia's economy is in shambles. However 5% growth in the last year, (not to mention 1% world economic growth) is a testament that slowly but surely capitalism is succeeding in Russia. There are millions of poor and suffering citizens of Russia however that came after the collapse of communism and the abismal state the country was left it. Russian capitalism will destroy the mafia just like capitalism did in Italy and the U.S. Putin is a strong and hard leader who is securing economic deals with Europeans coutnerparts that will assist his nation. You used statistics from around the election date saying how Russian's regretting the fall of the USSR however you said the communist party did not receive the majority of the votes because Russian's wanted to give capitalism a chance? I think you contradicted yourself. If the majority of voters preferred USSR style communism and wanted it back, surely they would have expressed their opinion through the ballot boxes.

[yuriandropov]

ß äóìàþ, ÷òî Âû - ïðàâûé íàòåääè., îí ïèòàëñÿ ñëèøêîì ìíîãî çàïàäíîé ïðîïàãàíäû.

[Capitalist Fighter]

This debate is conducted in english to accomodate for the majority here. Please translate

[Capitalist Imperial]

Nateddi, how do you know about succeeding in the US, have you tried? Where are you from? Have you even been here? Be honest, don't make something up just to argue. Don't you see? Soviet union failed, US succeeded. Don't arge theory, look at the facts. How many people tried to break into the soviet union?? probably about 0000000!!!! USA gets thousands of immigrants every day.

[yuriandropov]

no the majority of voter don't want soviet style communism back. many want to give capitalism a chance, but they still want the USSR back! its not an ideological thing, its a patriotic thing. USSR does not=stalinism.
i personally feel the russian economy was better last year due to oil. putin has himself said the economic outlook is poor due to bureacrats. as soon as oil price drops, so will everyones savings (again). what will happen then i think, is many people will realise things were better under communism. remember, many youngsters (16-20) are fond of communism in russia and many older people 50+ liked the security.
we will see what happens but socialism in one form or another will return. it may just be symology, it may be a centre-left coalition, it may be a parlimentry coup or even a full scale revolution. who knows.

[Nateddi]

The question is on you kind sir.

How can an immigrant without American support (family, etc) make it into the "middle-class". I have seen my mother, who was a mechanical engineer / designer in the USSR / Russia get into jobs for several months, than being fired for bad english skills, replaced by better looking younger women who don't do jack shit except arouse the male intelligencia. And no help comes from any private or US agencies. Its a sad thing to see.

Most don't have the kind of experiecne / education she had. The people who hop the fense over Mexico and don't have any financial help to lean over will never make it (past a job as a factory worker @ minimum wage). So please, tell me how can an average immigrant "make it".

[Field Marshal]

Yuri, can you tell us how many people represented that "*%"?

[yuriandropov]

the old capitalist theory of 'look at USSR and look at USA' is ridiculous. you can't compare the two. while russian was just getting out of serfdom, the USA was an industrialised country. they had about 50 years head start on us!
considering what the bolsheviks inherited, putting the first man in space, increaing the literary rate from 10% to 90%, industrialising the country, making USSR a super power and vastly increasing the standard of living for the average soviet were all good acheivments in my view.

[yuriandropov]

field marshal, virtualy all of the polls were nationwide. in april '91 78% voted to keep USSR. that was nationwide. the polls done in '92 and '02 are all nationwide exept for the question 'do you think USSR break up was good thing' that i don't know but you can get results from adding up the remaining percent of the voters who voted no (minus a few who voted that they didn't care). the poll for youngsters was virtually nationwide.

BTW about the russian, nateddi was saying how you don't understand the russian economy and i simply agreed and blamed your views on western propaganda.

[Capitalist Imperial]

nateddi, I live in san diego, many miexican people come over with poor english, limited family, (sometimes large family) they start landscaping businesses, construction, commercial fishing, they can make great $$$, 50-70k, even 100k/ year, they just have to work hard at it

[Capitalist Imperial]

Thats the point, YURI, USA is just over 200 years old, much younger than russia, and among worlds youngest countries still. We never allowed serfdom. But we industrialized before russia, and before many countries thousands of years older than us. Above that, we revolutionized the whole world, and are now the worlds most powerful empire. All of this in only 200 years. That is very impressive. It is the other countries, including russia, that had a vast head start on us.

[Nateddi]

So you see thousands new (successful) private businesses at 100k / year?

Do you think the (extremely) small minority of immigrants who started these had nothing to start with?

You are also comparing the US with imperialist / czarist russia. The US had slavery their first 70 years of existance, Russia had serfdom. If you say US (as a nation) is young, than you can say the same thing about USSR. Just forget about the British / Czarist russia eh?

[yuriandropov]

CI, that not entirely true. the USSR was not russia. it was an entirely new system. it started in 1917. by that time, USA was already industrialised. remember USA didn't just appear on the map in 1776, the USA you know started in 1776, but the russia you know now started in 1917. it ended in 1991 and now is in limbo.
also, economic growth is not the only way to measure a populations standard of living. the standard of living in russia is dropping fast! about 3 months ago, i went to a school in russia for 12-18 year olds. i would say that only about 2% of the school was taller than i am. i am only 180cm (5'11). in soviet days, i was about average height! now, average height is about 170cm (5'7)! the children of todays russia are badly malnutritioned. the average russian man lives till he is 58! that is about a 10 year drop from soviet days!
something has to be done about the economy and distribution of wealth. i'm not saying bring back the centrally planned economy, but something has to be done to stablise the nation. we need another NEP.

(Edited by yuriandropov at 5:45 pm on May 22, 2002)

[STALINSOLDIERS]

yuri i hope the CCCP comes back its a beautiful country i wish to live there after usa falls, and another thing is the usa was built in slavery and well always be slavery within this country. so well for capitalism there well all ways be poor there well always bee hunger, and in communism we try to improve that by giving more to the peoples and no one is slaves, true communism is true democracy there wont be none of hunger or poor.

[Guest]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 2:03 am on May 22, 2002
Thats the point, YURI, USA is just over 200 years old, much younger than russia, and among worlds youngest countries still. We never allowed serfdom. But we industrialized before russia, and before many countries thousands of years older than us. Above that, we revolutionized the whole world, and are now the worlds most powerful empire. All of this in only 200 years. That is very impressive. It is the other countries, including russia, that had a vast head start on us.


Have you even bothered to take in the fact that the united states is a little older than that and that simply because it wasn't called the united states doesn't mean there was nothing here. There were permenant english, and spanish settlements in north east america in the early 1600's. If you want to play like that, then the Soviet Union became the most powerful nation in 25 years, and the united states took 200, whose pathetic now?

[Thine Stalin]

Gah, that was my post, sorry, forgot to login

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Guest on 8:17 pm on May 22, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 2:03 am on May 22, 2002
Thats the point, YURI, USA is just over 200 years old, much younger than russia, and among worlds youngest countries still. We never allowed serfdom. But we industrialized before russia, and before many countries thousands of years older than us. Above that, we revolutionized the whole world, and are now the worlds most powerful empire. All of this in only 200 years. That is very impressive. It is the other countries, including russia, that had a vast head start on us.


Have you even bothered to take in the fact that the united states is a little older than that and that simply because it wasn't called the united states doesn't mean there was nothing here. There were permenant english, and spanish settlements in north east america in the early 1600's. If you want to play like that, then the Soviet Union became the most powerful nation in 25 years, and the united states took 200, whose pathetic now?


That didn't make much sense, so you are pathetic. The colonies that existed in the new world were a totally different form of gevernment, the United states was the ideology and political system, and that started 200 years ago (much like USSR in 1917, that makes sense), but you need to read and understand history before you post. Also, guest, russia was never the most powerful country, always 2nd place to USA

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Guest on 8:17 pm on May 22, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 2:03 am on May 22, 2002
Thats the point, YURI, USA is just over 200 years old, much younger than russia, and among worlds youngest countries still. We never allowed serfdom. But we industrialized before russia, and before many countries thousands of years older than us. Above that, we revolutionized the whole world, and are now the worlds most powerful empire. All of this in only 200 years. That is very impressive. It is the other countries, including russia, that had a vast head start on us.


Have you even bothered to take in the fact that the united states is a little older than that and that simply because it wasn't called the united states doesn't mean there was nothing here. There were permenant english, and spanish settlements in north east america in the early 1600's. If you want to play like that, then the Soviet Union became the most powerful nation in 25 years, and the united states took 200, whose pathetic now?


That didn't make much sense, so you are pathetic. The colonies that existed in the new world were a totally different form of gevernment, the United states was the ideology and political system, and that started 200 years ago (much like USSR in 1917, that makes sense), but you need to read and understand history before you post. Also, guest, russia was never the most powerful country, always 2nd place to USA

[Thine Stalin]

I am not guest! I am thine stalin, didn't you read?


The british empire was stronger than america's has been yet, if you take into account the period of history.

The soviet union was better than the USA. It did control 1/6 of the earth and with china and the other communist nations, 1/3 of the earth was communist. Aswell as 1/3 the population.