He who controls the present, controls the past.

[Red_or_Dead]

Ok, so Ive been reading George Orwells 1984, and I am wondering about this slogan: "He who controls the present, controls the past." As any of you who have read the book remember, the Party used various methods to "change" the past, mainly by editing documents, and the method of "doublethink". Later in the book, when Smith is being interogated by O`Brien, there is a very interesting conversation between them on this subject. O`Brien argues that the past can be changed, because at present, past exists only in documents (by documents it is meant everything from books, newspapers, audio, video, ect.) and in the conscience of people, and since both things can be manipulated with, it is possible to change the past. Smith couldnt come up with a good argument against that, even though he felt that there must be one.

Now the first question: what do you guys think that argument could be? Mine would be that the past did exist independant of how we percieve it today, and the only thing that the Party in 1984 changed was the preception of the past, not the past itself.

The second question is: how can we be sure that in the real life we know what the past was like? We know that a lot of media is biased, a lot of documented material about the past is wrong, and (besides in the past that is still in living memory) we have no other connection to it. And how can we be sure that even the past that exists in the minds of people who saw it, is genuine, and has not been tampered with by propaganda, or the like?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I think this belongs in Literature.

[Dystisis]

I really like this topic, find it interesting.

First off, you argue that the past exist(ed) independantly of how we percieve it today. No one can change the past, as you say. Therefore, the quote "He who controls the present, controls the past" is not valid in a strict sense.

However, what does really matter? What affects people: A long forgotten story of what really happened, or what they are taught happened? He who controls the present does not actually control the past, he controls our perception of it. Another quote not unlike it is "History is written by the victors".

Another way to interpret that quote could be that, he who acts in the present changes the past of the future... As a suggestion to choose your steps wisely, history will judge you. But I doubt that is what's really meant.



The second question is: how can we be sure that in the real life we know what the past was like? We know that a lot of media is biased, a lot of documented material about the past is wrong, and (besides in the past that is still in living memory) we have no other connection to it. And how can we be sure that even the past that exists in the minds of people who saw it, is genuine, and has not been tampered with by propaganda, or the like?
Ultimately, we can't. There is not much we can know for sure in this world, no matter what people says. Hang on to what you do know... ;)

[Sendo]

Listen to RATM's Testify...


Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past
Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past

Great reference to the amazing 1984....

...but also 'cause Rage kicks all kinds of ass.

[Zarathustra]

I think the real question here is: what is the difference between The Past / The Perception of the Past, and what will be the concequence if you interchange the two?

[Red_or_Dead]

However, what does really matter? What affects people: A long forgotten story of what really happened, or what they are taught happened? He who controls the present does not actually control the past, he controls our perception of it. Another quote not unlike it is "History is written by the victors".


What they are tought, of course, tho only if we are talking about 1984. In the real world it is a bit different, since practicly everyone sees history in a diferent way.

But anyway, yeah, its the perception that ultimately matters.


Ultimately, we can't. There is not much we can know for sure in this world, no matter what people says. Hang on to what you do know... ;)

Oh, definatly. There are at least some things that we can be sure about (like Im sure that there was a WW2, and Im sure about who were the participants), and for the rest... Well, we can always argue with the others.



I think the real question here is: what is the difference between The Past / The Perception of the Past, and what will be the concequence if you interchange the two?

I dont think that they are interchangeable at all. Past, the real past, happened and there is nothing that can change it from present or future. Perception is only how we see it.