lenin on anti semitism

[peaccenicked]

Lenin on anti-semitism


This speech by Lenin, from 1919, shows how the Bolsheviks attacked the problem of age-old Russian anti-semitism after the workers' revolution of 1917.


"Anti-semitism means spreading enmity towards the Jews. When the accursed Tsarist monarchy was living its last days it tried to incite ignorant workers and peasants against the Jews. The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landlords and capitalists, organised pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. In other countries, too, we often see the capitalists fomenting hatred against the Jews in order to blind the workers, to divert their attention from the real enemy of the working people, capital...

"It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there among the Russians and among people of all nations. The capitalists strive to sow and foment hatred between workers of different faiths, different nations and different races. Those who do not work are kept in power by the power and strength of capital.

"Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers.

"Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations.

"Long live the fraternal trust and fighting alliance of the workers of all nations in the struggle to overthrow capital."

[yuriandropov]

peacenicked, check the date on that speech and then look at my post judaism and marxism. lenin needed the jews to fight the whites, then when the red army triumphed, the jews (or a large percentage) turned there back on lenin.

[PaulDavidHewson]

and how exactly did they turn their backs on him?
Did they sign a petition? Was one man of the jewish religion mysteriously appointed as a spokesman for the entire jewish population in the USSR?

Or do you mean this is the most litteral meaning of there word? :p


"lenin needed the jews to fight the whites, then when the red army triumphed, the jews (or a large percentage) turned there back on lenin. "

This makes no sense.
Lenin first needed the jewish people to fight the whites. and then they turned their backs on him.

Please, enlighten me how and when and for what reason they turned their backs on him. And please be sure to mention how this explains their persecution.
(this is considered an integral part of your oncomming reply)

[RedCeltic]

I think this makes more sense.

Lenin first needed the jewish people to fight the whites. and then he turned his back on them.




(Edited by RedCeltic at 6:52 pm on May 20, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

yes RC thats what i meant. jews joined lenin because the whites were anti-semitic, the bolsheviks weren't officially anti-semites. when red army won civil war, lenin said the prolaterat jews 'discard your bourgeois religion, join the prolaterat struggle' (thats not a quote by the way). the jews, manipulated by the bourgeoisis, turned there back on lenin as the bolsheviks were atheists. this infuriated lenin. after this, although he attacked all religion, he singled out judaism for special treatment (continued by stalin). read my post 'judaism and marxism' to see what he did.

[El Che]

Yuri has an answer for everything....

[Reuben]

no yuri your wrong. lenin did not simply turn his back on the religious jews. The jewish workers bund, a marxist jewish organisation, numbering 3000,000 predominantly secualr atheistic members, was viciously attacked by Lenin and many of their leaders sent back to the same prisons they had been held in by the Tsars.

II still really like the earlier lenin though, and many aspecs of lenin

[yuriandropov]

no lenin did not turn his back on jews, the jews turned there back on lenin. he asked them to denounce judaism and join the prolaterat struggle and the jews said no (90% of them anyway).
you are right about jewish workers bund, but why did they need a JEWSIH organisation? why couldn't they join the regular bolsheviks? lenin was not an anti-semite, they could of easily joined. lenin only turned ant-semitic when the jews chose there religion (or culture) over him.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Why ,in the name of arse wiping stalin, should a culture and religion which exists for a couple of thousand years conform to the wills of one man???

of course they choose culture over him, who is he to say that they should denounce their believes. They were no threat whatsoever. But like always, it's easy to pick on the minority and blame it all on them.

[Capitalist Fighter]

Excellent point Bono. Yuri your views on jews are really tunnel-visioned and superficial. Not to mention disgusting, racist, childish and inappropriate. When are you leaving for Russia again?

[yuriandropov]

jews were no threat to bolsheviks! what! that is ridiculous, when the jews denounced bolshevism because of its atheism, they became class enemies! if they wouldn't have hijacked palastine, maybe they would of stole USSR!
lenins democratic centralism was populist, it looked out for the intersts of the prolaterat. anyone who was an enemy of that, were enemies of the prolaterat.
religion (especially judaism) divides the working class, thats what lenin said. if lenin could of turned all prolaterat jews into bolsheviks, the prolaterat wuld be even stronger. the working class jews needed to be assimilated so to strengthen the position of the prolaterat as a whole.
capitalist fighter, i'll be in russia (belorussia) a week from today and you can go back to your dream world where everyone loves each other, religions live side by side and communism can prevail through democratic means.

[Capitalist Fighter]

I am actually a capitalist. Yuri Lenin's party and form of government was not "populist". Hence the fact they had to stage a coup to get into power, terminate the National Assembly after they received less then favourable, (pretty appalling) results and were beaten convincingly by other rival parties, fought a civil war over maintaining their minority government and instigating terror to consolidate their authoritarian regime. Hardly a popular and democratic government.

[Reuben]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:34 pm on May 21, 2002
no lenin did not turn his back on jews, the jews turned there back on lenin. he asked them to denounce judaism and join the prolaterat struggle and the jews said no (90% of them anyway).
you are right about jewish workers bund, but why did they need a JEWSIH organisation? why couldn't they join the regular bolsheviks? lenin was not an anti-semite, they could of easily joined. lenin only turned ant-semitic when the jews chose there religion (or culture) over him.


As I said before, the bund was not religious it was secular. Howeever they did quite rightly feel attached to their culture.

Why did they have to have a jewish organisation. Well it was partly to do with language. They felt that the jewish working class could best be enrolled to the revolution if they were communicated to in their own language by people who could empathise with their position.

Furthermore, the Bund, in representing the jewish working class, DID represent a specific interest group, who suffered persecution as proletarians but also in ways which were much more specific to them. Do you believe that in cuba there should not be a womens organisation?

The bund felt that, as is often the case with minorities, a group wasw need ed to represent the interests of their members, primarily as workers, but also as jews. To a great extent, they werer validated. If you look at 1930s poland, when some of the gravest acts of anti-semitism were being committed, the regular communist party, which would have been close to stalin, did nothing to stand up against racism (as did the zionists, while the only group putting up any armed or other resistance was the bund.

[Reuben]

I really find your attitude towards jewish culture simplistic to say the least . You constantly say that jews did not have a right to their culture because it was bourgoir.

Primarily, i would be interested how it is is that you think it is possible to describe a whole culture as Bourgoir. Like russian culture, there were many different aspects to it. so much of The jewish culture which I have been brought up with, and that which I know about which eminates from russia, such as the wealth of yiddish songs and poetry written in protest at the exploitation suffered by the jewish working class, cannot by any means be described as bourgoir.

I would not dream of categorisiing all russian culture under a banner such as bourgoir, even though their were very right wing elements to russian culture such as the tsarist patriotism.

[Reuben]

I really find your attitude towards jewish culture simplistic to say the least . You constantly say that jews did not have a right to their culture because it was bourgoir.

Primarily, i would be interested how it is is that you think it is possible to describe a whole culture as Bourgoir. Like russian culture, there were many different aspects to it. so much of The jewish culture which I have been brought up with, and that which I know about which eminates from russia, such as the wealth of yiddish songs and poetry written in protest at the exploitation suffered by the jewish working class, cannot by any means be described as bourgoir.

I would not dream of categorisiing all russian culture under a banner such as bourgoir, even though their were very right wing elements to russian culture such as the tsarist patriotism.

[yuriandropov]

do i believe there should be a womens organisation in cuba? no! in an equal society, there would be no need for such an organisation. same with the soviet jews, if they would have assimilated and dropped judaism all together, there would be no need for a jewish bund. the probelm was, they still called themselves jews. if they were atheists, they should have just forgot about there jewish identity and thought about there soviet identity. while there are divisions in the working class (race, religion, sex) there will never be a world wide communist revolution.

(Edited by yuriandropov at 6:56 pm on May 21, 2002)

[Reuben]

yeah and many russians sitiled called themselves russians. Being aware of your cultural identity is not necessariy nationalistic

[yuriandropov]

not that its right, but in stalins day, if you referred to yourself as russian rather than soviet, you could easily be investigated for nationalist tendancies.
i am proud of my country, but if i lived in another country, i would assimilate to that countries way of life. the jews should have done that. after all, it was there country, but they didn't see it that way (the majority anyway).

[Reuben]

didnt realise that tabout russians. If you lived in another country you should not have to assimilate. Why should the jews, whose communities had existed in russia for hundreds years suddenly have to change and forget their culture simply because they were in the minority

[yuriandropov]

the basis for what i'm saying is, religion, race, sex, culture, divides the working class. the sooner people realise this, the sooner the revolution will come. unfortunatly, with conservatives saying 'our culture has stood for thousands of years, no commie is going to take it away' and liberals saying 'everyone should have the right to there own culture' the revolution (in USA at least) is not going to happen for a long time (if ever).

[Reuben]

were the black panthers not committed to revolution?

[yuriandropov]

the black panthers were nothing more than black zionists who have nothing at all to do with communism! when i speak of revolution, i mean prolaterat revolution.

[Reuben]

actually coming to think of it I agree with you completely. Black zionist is a really great description of the black panthers and other seperatist ascpects of the black power movement (though not all)

[yuriandropov]

oh no! we agreed on something!

although i am no expert on blacks in america, it seems to me that the black panthers and similar organisations ruined the great work done by martin luther king jr. i think the average american respected him a lot more than malcolm x.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 7:51 pm on May 20, 2002
Lenin first needed the jewish people to fight the whites. and then he turned his back on them.[hr]Ain't that the truth![hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 8:34 am on May 21, 2002
no lenin did not turn his back on jews, the jews turned there back on lenin. he asked them to denounce judaism and join the prolaterat struggle and the jews said no (90% of them anyway). [hr]Why did they have to denounce Judaism to join the prolateriat struggle? They already had joined the prolateriat struggle by fighting in the Red Army![hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 8:34 am on May 21, 2002
you are right about jewish workers bund, but why did they need a JEWSIH organisation? why couldn't they join the regular bolsheviks? lenin was not an anti-semite, they could of easily joined. lenin only turned ant-semitic when the jews chose there religion (or culture) over him.[hr]They needed a Jewish organization because they had been fucked over, almost always by non-Jews, for years and years. Whether or not Lenin started out as an anti-semite (or ever even was an anti-semite) is beyond the point, because there were lots of other anti-semites in the Bolshevik organization.[hr]Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 8:40 am on May 21, 2002
Why ,in the name of arse wiping stalin, should a culture and religion which exists for a couple of thousand years conform to the wills of one man???

of course they choose culture over him, who is he to say that they should denounce their believes. They were no threat whatsoever. But like always, it's easy to pick on the minority and blame it all on them.[hr]Exactly. How are a Passover seder, a kepah and a menorah going to keep the workers of the world down?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
jews were no threat to bolsheviks! what! that is ridiculous, when the jews denounced bolshevism because of its atheism, they became class enemies![hr]Only if they had denounced Bolshevism because of its economic ideology would they have become class enemies. When they denounced Bolshevism's forced atheism, they became atheism enemies. They were still communists, just not the religious oppressor kind.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
if they wouldn't have hijacked palastine, maybe they would of stole USSR!/i][hr]Never before has it been so apparent that you are completely removed from reality and slept through history class, not to mention that you have no grip on how the world works.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
[i]lenins democratic centralism was populist, it looked out for the intersts of the prolaterat. anyone who was an enemy of that, were enemies of the prolaterat.[hr]This is insane. First of all, whether or not Lenin's "democratic centralism" was populist, it WASN'T democratic! Anyway, if I like cheese and someone is my enemy, that doesn't mean that this person is automatically an enemy of cheese. A person can like cheese but hate me because I like pastrami. The same concept applies to Lenin's enemies: Unless a person hated him because he was a "populist", they were not automatically enemies of the prolateriat. Are you so simple-minded that you think the only reason a person would dislike Lenin was that he was a "populist"? (Your words, not mine.) Has it ever occured to you that perhaps his enemies were just jealous of his good looks?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
religion (especially judaism) divides the working class, thats what lenin said.[hr]What specific aspect of Judaism divides the working class? If Lenin told you to jump off a cliff for the workers of the world, would you do it? You need to be more specific. "Lenin said so" does not make it true![hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
if lenin could of turned all prolaterat jews into bolsheviks, the prolaterat wuld be even stronger. the working class jews needed to be assimilated so to strengthen the position of the prolaterat as a whole.[hr]Perhaps the prolateriat would have been strengthened if the Jews assimilated . . . I'm really not sure about that. But what's more important: That the prolateriat is as strong as possible, or that the prolateriat has a healthy balance of strength, diversity and respect among its members?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:21 am on May 21, 2002
capitalist fighter, i'll be in russia (belorussia) a week from today and you can go back to your dream world where everyone loves each other, religions live side by side and communism can prevail through democratic means.[hr]This is exactly what happened in the Languedoc, by the way.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:55 pm on May 21, 2002
do i believe there should be a womens organisation in cuba? no! in an equal society, there would be no need for such an organisation.[hr]Yes, but a society does not automatically become equal when a communist takes over. (Especially if that "communist"'s name is Stalin.) Once equality is achieved there should be a board to make sure that equality is maintained, but until there is equality there should definitely be a complete organization.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:55 pm on May 21, 2002
same with the soviet jews, if they would have assimilated and dropped judaism all together, there would be no need for a jewish bund. the probelm was, they still called themselves jews. if they were atheists, they should have just forgot about there jewish identity and thought about there soviet identity.[hr]Why the hell should the Jews have to lose their culture while the Soviets got to keep theirs? That seems incredibly unequal to me. A person can't just forget about their Jewish identity, and to ask them to is an awful thing to do.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:55 pm on May 21, 2002
while there are divisions in the working class (race, religion, sex) there will never be a world wide communist revolution.[hr]Well, I know that you think all religious minorities should assimilate. But what do you think should be done to races and genders so that there can be a communist revolution? Should all the Anglos wear blackface? Should all the women wear strap-ons? Those things look very uncomfortable.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 2:03 pm on May 21, 2002
not that its right, but in stalins day, if you referred to yourself as russian rather than soviet, you could easily be investigated for nationalist tendancies.[hr]As if we needed more proof that Stalin was an asshole.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 2:03 pm on May 21, 2002
i am proud of my country, but if i lived in another country, i would assimilate to that countries way of life. the jews should have done that. after all, it was there country, but they didn't see it that way (the majority anyway).[hr]Maybe because you come from Russia (where there isn't much diversity, from what I understand) you don't realize that it is possible for cultures to live side by side. There are plenty of Jews in America who are very well-accepted (the winning vice presidential candidate in the last election was Jewish, the creators and star of the most popular television show ever were Jewish) and most Americans aren't anti-semitic. Is it always easy to live in a diverse country? Of course not. But it's worth it. I hate being called a "nigger" or a "kike" more than anything else, but I wouldn't want to live in a country without light-skinned people or gentiles. Because of the different cultures here, America has become a melting pot. So while I hate a lot of things about the American government, our mix of cultures is something that I'm very proud of. My children will learn to be themselves and not follow the crowd unless they want to, and they will learn to love all of their neighbors, Russian, Jewish, or whatever.

I love you all,
Lindsay

[yuriandropov]

about jews joining the struggle by fighting with the red army. they fought with the red army for there own private gain (theres a suprise). the whites were more anti semitic than the bolsheviks so they thought they would fight for the bolsheviks.
about a jewish organisation. a jewish organisation seperates jews from other soviets. it is nationalistic.
jews didn't denounce bolshevik economics. what? of course they did. most of the petty bourgeois were jews and they were hit the hardest behind the main bourgeoisie. most jewish leaders denounced all aspects of bolshevism from the start.
about my comments about jews stealing USSR. i don't understand your responce.
again, womens organisations. to be honest, i don't give a fuck. there are more important things happening than more women getting into politics or whatever.
about jewish and soviet culture. the soviets kept there culture because it was prolaterian culture. they didn't necessarily keep russian culture did they? when the USSR was formed, there was a new culture. working class culture, judaism wasn't working class culture.
what apect of judaism divides? look at my post 'leninism on anti-semitism' to show how religion divides the working class. judaism does more so than others because of its blatant facist elements which i have pointed out so many times and you have simply denied the facts.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Yuri,

Did you know that the Jewish people lived in Ghetto's during the reign of the Tsar in Russia.
did you also know that they were not allowed to live+work outside this Ghetto.
Did you know that many jewish people got framed for crimes they did not commit, but no one in Russia who is not a jewish person gives a rat ass.
Did you know many Jewish people lived with 10+ people in one house and that this house was actually meant to hold far less people.
Did you know that their lives were just plain old misarable?

The only place the jewish people were allowed to live "relatively" freely was in countryside villages called Stetl( not sure how it's written exactly)

Did you know that after the revolution their fate did not improve????

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
about jews joining the struggle by fighting with the red army. they fought with the red army for there own private gain (theres a suprise). the whites were more anti semitic than the bolsheviks so they thought they would fight for the bolsheviks.[hr]I don't think that fighting for your life goes under "private gain". Is it really so greedy and "capitalistic" (as you might say) to want your family to survive a war?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
about a jewish organisation. a jewish organisation seperates jews from other soviets. it is nationalistic.[hr]A Jewish organization is also in tune with reality, unlike most Soviet organizations. Jewish organizations realized that there was a difference between Jews and the rest of the Soviets and that they needed to speak up for themselves.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
jews didn't denounce bolshevik economics. what? of course they did. most of the petty bourgeois were jews and they were hit the hardest behind the main bourgeoisie. most jewish leaders denounced all aspects of bolshevism from the start.[hr]There's a difference between high-profile Jewish leaders and low-profile Jewish workers. Don't confuse the rich Jews with the main Jewish population.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
about my comments about jews stealing USSR. i don't understand your responce.[hr]Anyone with a grip on history or global politics would know that the Jews could never have taken over the USSR like they took over Israel.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
]again, womens organisations. to be honest, i don't give a fuck. there are more important things happening than more women getting into politics or whatever.[hr]Yeah, those women only make up 50% of the population. They ought to stop complaining! Don't they know that the Communist Party had more important things to worry about than the biggest group in the USSR (like getting cars for high officials)? Those women ought to shut up and start cooking dinner soon, or else . . . [hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
about jewish and soviet culture. the soviets kept there culture because it was prolaterian culture. they didn't necessarily keep russian culture did they? when the USSR was formed, there was a new culture. working class culture, judaism wasn't working class culture.[hr]The vast majority of Jewish culture WAS working class culture, because non-Jews were far more likely to be in the upper class than Jews were.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:34 pm on May 21, 2002
what apect of judaism divides? look at my post 'leninism on anti-semitism' to show how religion divides the working class. judaism does more so than others because of its blatant facist elements which i have pointed out so many times and you have simply denied the facts.[hr]You have pointed out a few specific (and largely inconsequential) elements of Judaism that are snotty and elitist, but not fascist. You haven't repsonded to my point that the Talmud isn't an "official" Jewish text. You haven't responded to my point that the Talmud is not read very widely, and is rarely ever read so closely. You haven't responded to my point that for ever elitist element of the Talmud, there are between 10 and 100 that are non-elitist, or that there is no elitism in the Torah (the only "official" Jewish text). You haven't responded to my point that the Talmud was created by many different people, and most of them were not elitist. I will keep telling you this from now on until you prove me wrong. Is Judaism perfect? No. But it's not fascist either.

Lindsay

[yuriandropov]

about the jewish organisations. you say jews were different from other soviets, how? how come every other ethnic minority was treated well in the USSR? i don't hear you crying that muslims or christians were treated badly, because they weren't. many muslims were in high positions in central asia. muslim organisations were no were near as vocal as the jewish ones.
about jews denouncing bloshevik economics. well, the rich jews denounced it and the working class jew followed them. lenin asked the jews to denounce there judaism, to distance themselves from the bourgeois jews who were denouncing bolshevism, but they didn't.
jews couldn't take over USSR? i think if leon trotsky (a jew) took over USSR from lenin, it may of went that way. nothing like in israel, but many more jews would have been in important positions.
about women, CPSU was not worrying about new cars for officials, it was worrying about a possible nuclear war, it was worrying about the stagnating economy, it was concerning itself with how to implement marxism. is the fact that women aren't joining the party
more important than these things. you still haven't answered my question on the other thread about men in child care. does USA wonder why there is few men in child care? no! it is concerned with more important matters.
jewish culture was working class culture? what rubbish. soviet working class culture was things like football, ice hockey, may day parade, november 7th, vodka. jews were not interested in these aspects of soviet culture. lenin had labeled jewish culture 'the culture of the bourgeoisie'. ever since that statement, all jewish culture would be frowned upon. if the prolaterat would have joined in the soviet culture and denounced judaism, there would have been no problem.
about judaism and facism. my opinions on this are based on 4 things:
1- jews have historically been right wing in there views
2- the facist writings of the talmud
3- the fact that virtually all the jews i have met have been facist in there views.
4- the fact that zionism (a blatantly facist movement) was sporned by judaism. and 90% of jews are for zionism. actually, prior to coming on this forum, i never met an anti-zionist jew.

to answer your question about the torah. i have never read it, i go by the things jews tell me about it. but i am going to try and read it soon. i can then comment on weather it is facist or not.

[komsomol]

Lenin was only anti-semitic towards the religious Jews, he was anti-religious like I am, but I am however only willing to fight against religion with words.

[Reuben]

regarding jewish culture, you have not responded to any of my points regarding the fact that to label a whole ethni culture is ridiculous. Although not quite as ridiculous as your argument that jewish culture was bourgoir because they didnt like ice hockey - god I can really see thatkeepingthe working class down. I have already detailed for you many aspects of proletarian socialist russian jewish culture which Iknow about from my own upbringing.

FINALLY your arguments are mayed weak through the way you continue to treat 'jews' as a single entity. saying the jews followed their bourgoirsie. I CAN TELL YOU that the jewish workers bund fought some of their fiercest battles with the jewish bourgoirsie, who employed many of the jews.

[yuriandropov]

some of you people should be journalists because you take the slightest thing and twist it to suit you. look at my previous posts, when i've reffered to 'jews', i have always put in brackets, 'most jews' or '90% of jews'. especially when reffering to the jewish position on zionism. then, the one time i don't, i'm generalising! the truth is, your not addressing the point and the point is jews didn't get involved with soviet culture. i should know as i lived in the USSR!
if went to israel, i would try my best to fit into the jewish culture. and if i went with many russians and drifted into russian culture, i would expect to be seen as a possible enemy (if the regime was extreme, which USSR was).
me saying jewish culture wasn't prolaterat is another way of saying it wasn't soviet (which WAS prolaterat). if the soviet jews wanted to live in a multi-culteral bourgeois society, they should of moved to USA.

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
about the jewish organisations. you say jews were different from other soviets, how? how come every other ethnic minority was treated well in the USSR?[hr]Jews were different from other Soviets because the Soviets had treated them so horribly for hundreds of years. The government might have changed after 1917, but the masses' attitudes had not in most ways.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
i don't hear you crying that muslims or christians were treated badly, because they weren't. many muslims were in high positions in central asia.[hr]Well, yeah, of course I won't cry for a group of people that filled many high positions! And as for the Christians, they weren't treated too badly because Russia was historically a Christian country.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
muslim organisations were no were near as vocal as the jewish ones.[hr]I'd really like to know what this has to do with anything.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
about jews denouncing bloshevik economics. well, the rich jews denounced it and the working class jew followed them. lenin asked the jews to denounce there judaism, to distance themselves from the bourgeois jews who were denouncing bolshevism, but they didn't.[hr]If Lenin was asking them to denounce their Judaism, he was an asshole for doing that and didn't deserve to have them as followers.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
jews couldn't take over USSR? i think if leon trotsky (a jew) took over USSR from lenin, it may of went that way. nothing like in israel, but many more jews would have been in important positions.[hr]Exactly, my boy. The USSR wouldn't become a Jewish state! If Trotsky took over, Jews might not have been treated as second-class citizens any longer. Forgive me, but I don't see what's wrong with this.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
about women, CPSU was not worrying about new cars for officials, it was worrying about a possible nuclear war, it was worrying about the stagnating economy, it was concerning itself with how to implement marxism. is the fact that women aren't joining the party more important than these things. you still haven't answered my question on the other thread about men in child care. does USA wonder why there is few men in child care? no! it is concerned with more important matters.[hr]There are more men in child care than I think you realize, but at any rate inequality between the genders almost always has the women getting the sour end of the deal. There's fewer jobs that are not open to women than there are jobs open to men. The fact that men aren't in child care very much is actually evidence of "traditional" attitudes (women should be with the children and men should work in an office building).[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
jewish culture was working class culture? what rubbish. soviet working class culture was things like football, ice hockey, may day parade, november 7th, vodka. jews were not interested in these aspects of soviet culture. lenin had labeled jewish culture 'the culture of the bourgeoisie'. ever since that statement, all jewish culture would be frowned upon.[hr]Yeah, if only those Jews would start playing ice hockey! Then the world would be a much better place! Give me a break. Just because it wasn't exactly like the Soviets' non-bourgouise culture, that doesn't mean that it was bourgouise. You've even acknowledged that almost all Jews were poor, so how can you say that their culture was bourgouise? That makes no sense.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
if the prolaterat would have joined in the soviet culture and denounced judaism, there would have been no problem.[hr]For the millionth fucking time, no one should have to denounce their culture to become equal! Considering your views on minorities and assimilation, do you think that black people in the US should have to denounce their culture to have equal rights?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
jews have historically been right wing in there views[hr]Historically? You already acknowledged that they fought for the Red Army, and Reuben said (and you cannot disprove) that there were three million communist Jews in the USSR alone. Jews made up more than half of the Communist Parties in America and Canada, and no matter what you think of their prioritizing skills, you'd have a hard time calling them right-wing. How much history do you want? The vast majority of Jews today are still left-of-center, and if you go back more than 35 years they were even farther to the left than they are today. (That's history for you!) If you'd stop focusing on history and take a look at what's going on today, I urge you to pick up a worthwhile leftist magazine. It'll be filled with Jewish writers, activists, reporters and commentators.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
the facist writings of the talmud[hr]FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME: THE TALMUD IS NOT NEARLY AS IMPORTANT AS THE TORAH (WHICH EVEN YOU WILL NOT CALL FASCIST) AND THERE ARE FAR MORE LEFTIST STATEMENTS IN THE TALMUD (WHICH WAS WRITTEN BY MANY PEOPLE) THAN THERE ARE RIGHT-WING STATEMENTS. GET IT INTO YOUR FUCKING HEAD![hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
the fact that virtually all the jews i have met have been facist in there views.[hr]From what I can tell, you have met very few Jews and aren't friends with any. So don't try to tell me that you've got your finger on the Jewish community's pulse, mister.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
the fact that zionism (a blatantly facist movement) was sporned by judaism. and 90% of jews are for zionism.[hr]There are many forms of Zionism, and very few are fascist. I doubt that 90% of Jews support Zionism at all (where do you get your statistics?), much less a fascist form of it. And Zionism's roots are more in the West's Christian leadership than they are in Judaism, much less the masses of Judaism (as opposed to the elite).[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
actually, prior to coming on this forum, i never met an anti-zionist jew.[hr]Mr. Misanthropy, once again I doubt you've met very many Jews at all. Russian Jews are probably more likely to feel the need for a Jewish state than the rest of the Jews because they've been treated so horribly by gentiles in these past few years.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:02 am on May 23, 2002
to answer your question about the torah. i have never read it, i go by the things jews tell me about it. but i am going to try and read it soon. i can then comment on weather it is facist or not.[hr]I've read it front to back six times (once in its original Hebrew form, five times in English) and I've read interpretations and commentary on it. Even if you read it once, don't expect to convince me of anything that I don't already believe about it.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 12:29 pm on May 23, 2002
if the soviet jews wanted to live in a multi-culteral bourgeois society, they should of moved to USA.[hr]What should they have done if they wanted to live in a multicultural prolaterian society?

Lindsay

(EDIT: I forgot to make a lot of the text un-bold and un-underlined and realized it when I viewed this topic again.)

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 4:12 pm on May 23, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

'I'd really like to know what this has to do with anything.'

well it has to fo with the fact that, muslims just kept quiete and got on with it. as a result, they were treated well, awarded good positions and had there views heard (like anti-zionism). the jews on the other hand didn't keep quiete. they kept going on and on about there precious culture and wouldn't let it go. what you don't realise is that soviet culture, was a new culture. everyone dropped there previous culture and assimilated with no problem, exept jews!
about lenin being an 'asshole' for giving the jews an ultimatum. he gave it to everyone. not just jews, EVERYONE! the only people to cry about it were....you guessed it, the jews!
about USSR being a jewish state, i never said it would, i said the jews could hijack it. democratic centralism was populist, jews were not popular so explain why having them in the government was good? if they were so 'downtrodden' in USSR surely they would use there power for revenge wouldn't they?
women in USSR, i don't care for this argument anymore. my views on women are clear in the 'status quo' thread. as long as women are given equal oppurtunity, they can't complain (and they didn't so where is the problem?).
jews playing ice hockey, again you have twisted my words. the jewish culture was not soviet and in the early days of the revolution, lenin needed unity. maybe if the jews had assimilated and kept in favour with lenin, they culture could have been re-born later on in the USSR's history. eveyone had to make sacrifices for the revolution, thats what it was about, putting your fellow man before you. it would of only been for a few years but no, the jews couldn't handle it.
about blacks assimilating. from what i've seen of culture in UK, blacks are most assimilated and blacks are also more exepted in society than other groups. is that a coninsidence? no! they are more accepted because they are more assimilated. anyway, its not like i think jews should assimilate to soviet culture now! there assimilation was only necessary in the early days of the revolution. unity is not as important today as it was then.
most of the jews that were or are in communism are like you. they know nothing about the movement and are liberals mascarading as communists. there were some hard line marxist jews. some of whom i have met. but they had denounced there religion and if you asked them there ethniticity they would say slavic not jewish. you cannot be a marxist and beleive in religion. so the title jewish communist (if you are reffering to the jewish religion) does not exist. and don't give me that about, 'you can be a marxist and religious' cause you fucking can't. you could be socialist and religious, but not marxist.
about your next statement, i will get it into my fucking head that the talmud is not important if you can get it into your fucking head that (in my country anyway) most people hate your fucking religion for reasons other than you are a 'minority'!
about worthwile 'leftist' literiture. i wouldn't be so stupid as to read western 'leftist' literature because it isn't lefitst. as i have said in other threads, in the east, we have a better view of what communism is. in the west, its anti-facism, in the east, its pro-working class. most of the western 'leftist' literatue i have read was written by wealthy bourgeoisie writing about the plight of jews or blacks or gays and writing fuck all about the working class! as a result, i don't read the shit anymore!
about me meeting jews. i have met at least 100 jews and they have all been idiots! they have all been right wing zionist scum (although some have tried to pass themselves off as left wing). that is not a reason for all jews being right wing, but i just thought i would put it anyway.
about a multi-culteral prolaterat society? one has never or will never (not in our lifetimes) exist.
about russian jews being zionist because of how they've been treated. you haven't asked yourself WHY they were treated like this. why were they hated? why are they still hated? the national bolsheviks in russia is one of the most popular parties amongst youngsters. they are communist in beleif, but they make hitler looked like he loved jews. how do you explain this? why are the NB so popular?

[Reuben]

That is a ompletely brillian posst my freind, but it is wasted on somebody who argues that jewish culture was bourgoir because they did not like ice hockey

[Reuben]

Again you reffered to trotsky as a jew, but you have constantly said you only recognize religious jews as jewish. Arew you prejudiced against trotsky as a jew?

Hear in the UK most young blacks are not assimilated and are very conscious of their identity.

Regarding the causes of antisemitism: Anti-semitism in russia has stemmed from a number of sources. Primarily it was the russian orthodox church who incited hatre against us as they believed that the "jews had killed christ." Furthermore there were myths such as the blood libel, that jews drink the blood of christians.

The second important source was the jewish conspiracy and the Tsarist forgery the protocols of the elders of zion

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
muslims just kept quiete and got on with it. as a result, they were treated well, awarded good positions and had there views heard (like anti-zionism). the jews on the other hand didn't keep quiete. they kept going on and on about there precious culture and wouldn't let it go.[hr]Yes, because it is entirely possible to have a communist state without outlawing Matzoh.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
what you don't realise is that soviet culture, was a new culture. everyone dropped there previous culture and assimilated with no problem, exept jews![hr]Soviet culture was mainly Russian culture and we both know it. What, was there no vodka before 1917?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about lenin being an 'asshole' for giving the jews an ultimatum. he gave it to everyone. not just jews, EVERYONE! the only people to cry about it were....you guessed it, the jews![hr]But most of the people, as explained above, were already a part of "Soviet" (Russian) culture. So the ultimatum was meaningless for most. And if you really expect me to be ashamed that my ancestors stood up for themselves, their values, and all that they held dead, you're mistaken.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about USSR being a jewish state, i never said it would, i said the jews could hijack it.[hr]And outlaw vodka! Oh, no! Say it isn't so!

What, exactly, would happen if the Jews "hijacked" the USSR?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
democratic centralism was populist, jews were not popular so explain why having them in the government was good?[hr]Actual democratic centralism is indeed populist. But how can you explain the Soviet system as democratic centralism when it put Stalin in power? I guarantee you, however unpopular the Jews were, a man who killed millions of people was less popular.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
if they were so 'downtrodden' in USSR surely they would use there power for revenge wouldn't they?[hr]Or perhaps they would use their power to liberate all of the other people who were downtrodden.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
women in USSR, i don't care for this argument anymore. my views on women are clear in the 'status quo' thread. as long as women are given equal oppurtunity, they can't complain (and they didn't so where is the problem?).[hr]THEY WEREN'T EQUAL! THERE WAS DE FACTO DISCRIMINATION! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD![hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
jews playing ice hockey, again you have twisted my words.[hr]No, I have shown that your proof is absurd and that unless you get more proof, we can safely assume that your point is absurd.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
he jewish culture was not soviet and in the early days of the revolution, lenin needed unity.[hr]If Lenin didn't have such a condescending view of his fellow human beings, perhaps he would have strived for a nation in which the people were united in hating discrimination and forced assimilation.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
maybe if the jews had assimilated and kept in favour with lenin, they culture could have been re-born later on in the USSR's history.[hr]Right around the time pigs learned to fly.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
eveyone had to make sacrifices for the revolution, thats what it was about, putting your fellow man before you.[hr]Your fellow man, not your fellow man's idiocy and bigotry.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
it would of only been for a few years but no, the jews couldn't handle it.[hr]Why the hell should the Jews have believed that it would only be for a few years? From your previous posts, it seems that you favored complete and permanent assimilation.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about blacks assimilating. from what i've seen of culture in UK, blacks are most assimilated and blacks are also more exepted in society than other groups. is that a coninsidence? no! they are more accepted because they are more assimilated.[hr]First of all, I said USA, not UK. Second of all, in the USA (but maybe not in the UK) black people have a very vibrant and strong culture. You're essentially saying that if black people give up what makes them unique and important, the dumb stereotypes and blind hatred will go away. Black people have made the greatest and most important strides by educating people, not assimilating. This is a concept that you don't seemt to understand. I feel like I'm wasting my time because I've repeated this again and again and it still hasn't gotten through to you, and the only other person who's viewed this thread lately is Reuben (who clearly understands this concept very, very well).[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
most of the jews that were or are in communism are like you. they know nothing about the movement and are liberals mascarading as communists. there were some hard line marxist jews. some of whom i have met. but they had denounced there religion and if you asked them there ethniticity they would say slavic not jewish. you cannot be a marxist and beleive in religion. so the title jewish communist (if you are reffering to the jewish religion) does not exist. and don't give me that about, 'you can be a marxist and religious' cause you fucking can't. you could be socialist and religious, but not marxist.[hr]Everyone in my family who was born in the USSR is very far to the left of where I am, for your information. And how the hell would you know about Jewish communists when all of the Jewish communists either left your country or were killed over half a century ago? And as for Jewish Marxism, I don't care if you call me a Marxist or not. (I doubt that a revolutionary thinker like Marx would appreciate people who follow him as blindly as you do, anyway.) Do I agree with a lot of what Marx said? Of course! But you've got to realize that Marx was a man who understood his time very well. His time. You need to realize that religion plays a very different role in society nowadays than it did in the 1800's.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about your next statement, i will get it into my fucking head that the talmud is not important if you can get it into your fucking head that (in my country anyway) most people hate your fucking religion for reasons other than you are a 'minority'![hr]Stupidity, perhaps?[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about worthwile 'leftist' literiture. i wouldn't be so stupid as to read western 'leftist' literature because it isn't lefitst. as i have said in other threads, in the east, we have a better view of what communism is. in the west, its anti-facism, in the east, its pro-working class. most of the western 'leftist' literatue i have read was written by wealthy bourgeoisie writing about the plight of jews or blacks or gays and writing fuck all about the working class! as a result, i don't read the shit anymore![hr]As a lifelong reisdent of the West, I can tell you that not all leftist literature is about gay people. A lot of it is about economics and the working class. Anyway, in the West we do in fact have black people and the left needs to do something about the injust ways in which they're treated. The term "the left" covers not just economic issues, but social ones as well.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about me meeting jews. i have met at least 100 jews and they have all been idiots! they have all been right wing zionist scum (although some have tried to pass themselves off as left wing). that is not a reason for all jews being right wing, but i just thought i would put it anyway.[hr]OF course they're idiots, Yuri, they're not exactly like you! This is not much proof. Where did you meet these Jews? What did you talk to them about? This was not very convincing, Yuri. And I'm not a right-winger or a Zionist, for your information.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about a multi-culteral prolaterat society? one has never or will never (not in our lifetimes) exist.[hr]This is not much of an argument. A society that's prolateriat at all, whether or not it's multi-cultural, has not existed in our lifetimes.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:08 pm on May 23, 2002
about russian jews being zionist because of how they've been treated. you haven't asked yourself WHY they were treated like this. why were they hated? why are they still hated? the national bolsheviks in russia is one of the most popular parties amongst youngsters. they are communist in beleif, but they make hitler looked like he loved jews. how do you explain this? why are the NB so popular?[hr]Why are communists so hated, Yuri? Because lots of capitalists are ignorant! If widespread hatred is a sign that a group of people are bad, then communists are simply awful! Tell me why communists are hated and then I'll tell you why Jews are hated. Deal?

Lindsay

[yuriandropov]

i'm not predudice against trotsky because he was a jew, i am because i don't like his policies. i will say this about leon trotsky, i never trusted him. he said he was an atheist, but many of the things he said went along with what many anti-leninist jews were saying. i think he said some good things, but stalin outlined his views best in 'trotskysim or leninism'. trotsky was very suspicious if you ask me, he may not even of been a leninist.
about blacks in uk, i really don't know enough to comment. when i go through asian areas, it seems like a different country. there are mosques and halal shops. my nephew (who is a racist so i don't know if he is telling the truth) tells me asians are not as exepted as blacks. when i see blacks, the only real difference i see is the colour of there skin. again, i don't know enough and could be wrong.
the reasons you gave about jews being hated are non-sense. they are vaguely true. how do you explain the hatred for jews in todays russia? the hate is venoumous. most russians are atheistic so you can't blame the church. to be perfectly honest with you, the hate is so much, i wouldn't even rule out the NB playing some sort of governmental role within the next 5 years! i am not saying that is right, but it is the truth. how do you explain it?

[I Will Deny You]

ONCE AGAIN YURI, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE WIDESPREAD HATRED OF COMMUNISTS?

[yuriandropov]

communists are hated by capitalists because communism says the working class deserve the power and wealth because the wealth is created by them. capitalists are naturally going to hate anything that threatens there power as the ruling class and benefitor from the economy.

[yuriandropov]

your turn now

[yuriandropov]

what would happen if jews hijacked USSR? difficult to say, but it wouldn't be good. also, it depends what kind of jews hijacked USSR. if secular jews who had denounced judaism took over, i wouldn't care. if religious or culturul jews took over, i would be worried.

'Or perhaps they would use their power to liberate all of the other people who were downtrodden.'

in my 39 years on planet earth, this is the stupidest comment i have ever heard. jews...liberate....downtrodden, these words don't go together. throughout history, jews have been notoriously individualistic and have always looked out for there own above everything else. to say they would 'liberate' the downtrodden is ridiculous.
women in USSR (for the 30th time!), explain to me how they weren't equal. i'll admit, stalin was more of a male chavanist than lenin (who declared equality for women), but when he addressed USSR in '41 after nazi invasion, he said 'brothers and sisters of the soviet union'. the opportunities were there for women. they could join CPSU. maybe the fact that they didn't should have been looked in too, but they never complained so there was no need. in fact, you will actually find the pecentage of women who hold the communist period in high regards is probobly more than men. when religious nuts in USA were screaming to ban abortion, women could walk into health centres in USSR and get abortion for free! no questions asked. womens rights, IMO, were represented in USSR better than most countries.
about stalin and democratic centralism, stalin was very popular in USSR until mid 50's when kruschev began de-stalinisation. if there was a national vote from 1922-1953, stalin would of won every year. however, stalin did rig a CC CPSU vote one year in order to win. this however, was not democratic centralism but one man dictatorship at the time.
jews and ice hockey, it was a bad example but my point was, jews didn't see themselves as soviets. they distanced themselves which made them appear to be anti-soviet, this in turn, made them targets of the NKVD. if they would of integrated more, they would of been alright, but they didn't. IMO, they have the jewish leaders, who turned there back on lenin, to thank for that.
lenin had a condesending view of his fellow human beings? you know nothing of vladimir lenin. i have said it before and will say it again. lenin was the greatest man who ever lived! until you have studied lenin the man and leninism the political theory, you cannot make such an absurd comment. lenin was not an anti-semite. he was so devouted to the prolaterat, that he took any shunning of soviet and prolaterat culture, as a personal insult. just as i take such a comment by you, on lenin, as a personal insult. anyway, i will leave it there as i will start a new post to show the greatness of V.I. Lenin.
about jewish culture returning to USSR. well, maybe that was a fair comment about pigs flying. it all would of depended on who the leader was. to be realistic though, the hate between the jews and communists would have been built up for so long that many jews would of emigrated (like they did).
about black culture in USA. i do not have enough information to comment on blacks in the USA. but to answer your question, if everyone has the same culture, there would probobly be less racial hatred. people are scared of what they don't know. of course, saying everyone should have the same culture is pointless as it will never happen. i can still see what lenin and stalin were trying to do though. they didn't want all of USSR to be the same, they just wanted unity while the revolution was in its early days. this is why stalin chose 'socialism in one country' and called WWII 'the great patriotic war'. he wanted to promote soviet patriotism.
anyway, i will answer the other points later. i have replied to your question about why communists are hated so you now must reply to why are jews hated?