Does porn reinforce negative stereotypes?

[spartan]

I personally feel that this is a very serious issue.

Here are a few examples of what i see as negatve stereotypes that are very common themes in most porn films:

The illegal Mexican immigrant who has to fuck a border guard to stay in the US.

The Asian dragon lady or submissive Asian lady who yearns for some "white meat" to abuse or to be abused by to fulfil her sexual desires.

The black guy with the big penis who can get any woman he wants on account of his penis size.

The dumb blonde who is basically there for men to shag whenever they want (Usually via taking advantage of her dumbness).

And then you have the sexualy liberated European woman who will take sex from wherever she can get it.

So yeah i would say that, to a degree, in some circumstances porn does reinforce negative generalised stereotypes amongst certain people which could lead to bad consequences in real life situations (Abuse, rape, etc), would you agree?

NOTE: If you want to add more negative stereotypes of people in porn then feel free to add.

[Entrails Konfetti]

It says Fat Women can have sex, too.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Women riding on top, telling how they like it.

Women being able to achieve amazing orgasms by themselves.

My masculinity being at stake with the females use of a rubber phallus or vibrator.

[Dros]

As with all things, porn is charecterized by the dominant ideas in a culture.

Literature, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, was very very racist. Does that mean we get rid of literature?

Lot's of things reflect these ideas. In fact, almost everything (in the art/intellectual world) reflect these ideas in our racist/discriminating world.

[jake williams]

I think it's a very important issue, yeah. A tricky one though.

The first thing we have to recognize is that people (at least the consumers) enjoy porn, so the burden of proof is on those speaking against it.

Second, I've done a bit of research here and there, and virtually all of the studies by criminologists and so on suggest that access to pornography is generally a positive force in communities - it correlates negatively with sex crime and so on. There is very little proof that pornography actually leads to sexual violence, but rather the suggestion is that it works against it.

Does it reinforce negative stereotypes? That's complicated. The whole idea of "negative stereotypes" for many of these involves implicit assumptions about female sexuality whereby women only have sex if they're coerced, or more generally that women are bad if they have sex. Personally, I think it's a negative stereotype of men that in so many circumstances, they can only "get" sex from women because they're in a position of power, and this is only one example. Conversely, suggesting that whenever a woman has sex, and this is just about done, she is somehow demeaned by the act, this is an extremely sexist, and indeed a very anti-woman attitude - not that it's rare even among self-described feminists.

Nevertheless there are some themes which I think are legitimately offensive, perhaps even dangerous, which are overrepresented in porn. Keep in mind, however, the unbelievable range of things found sexually arousing by people and hence the variety of themes in pornography.

Further it's an open question what the effects of porn are, say, on the perception of women by men who view porn. It is likely that a potential for damaging effects exists, though I expect this can be dealt with in different ways.

Returning, however, to the other side of the camera. It's certainly true that there are women who do porn only through economic coercion and regret. The reasons for this aren't completely clear, and it's entirely possible that the very attitudes of those supposedly fighting for their interests put up a negative view of pornography for which sex workers are later made to feel guilty. I think that for a great range of possible pornography, you'll be able to find willing participants, especially in a more healthy sexual society than we have now. It's not a simple picture, but that typically put forth by anti-porn activists is absurd, even offensive, and again, anti-woman.

I'm not saying that the porn industry is necessarily a great place for women, of course. But I don't see that a lot of this is really necessary simply by the misvirtue of the product, again except insofar as there's a stigma attached to it by the society.

[BobKKKindle$]

I don't think that there's a direct relationship between porn and various forms of sexual abuse, as rape occurs most often in countries where porn is actually restricted and there is an absence of open discussion of sexual issues, which results in sexual frustration which can only be released through the forced use of another person's body for sexual pleasure - for example, in Saudi Arabia.

In any discussion about porn, however, we should remember that there are many different types of porn, which is a reflect of the fact that sexuality is something is specific to the individual - we are all aroused by different things. Therefore, we should not make generalizations, and recognize that whereas there may be some forms of porn that promote negative stereotypes, there are other forms of porn in which these stereotypes are absent, and there may even be the promotion of positive sexual values - for example, porn used to be one of the few ways in which homosexuality was displayed in popular culture, and there is also a growing movement amongst the porn-actor community promoting the use of condoms in porn films, to send out a positive message to viewers.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Isn't it mandatory already for the guys to wear condoms nowadays (especially with some of the more recent AIDS episodes)?

Eight-plus years of porn... there's a difference (except for the amateur vids).

[careyprice31]

I personally feel that this is a very serious issue.

Here are a few examples of what i see as negatve stereotypes that are very common themes in most porn films:

The illegal Mexican immigrant who has to fuck a border guard to stay in the US.

The Asian dragon lady or submissive Asian lady who yearns for some "white meat" to abuse or to be abused by to fulfil her sexual desires.

The black guy with the big penis who can get any woman he wants on account of his penis size.

The dumb blonde who is basically there for men to shag whenever they want (Usually via taking advantage of her dumbness).

And then you have the sexualy liberated European woman who will take sex from wherever she can get it.

So yeah i would say that, to a degree, in some circumstances porn does reinforce negative generalised stereotypes amongst certain people which could lead to bad consequences in real life situations (Abuse, rape, etc), would you agree?

NOTE: If you want to add more negative stereotypes of people in porn then feel free to add.

I 100% agree on this. It also gives notion to the idea that people, mostly women, are sex objects there for men's pleasure.

I can give many examples of this, one of them related to the porn idea, happened only a few years ago. There was a wet t shirt contest at a bar called Junctions in downtown St John's, our capital city. The prize they offered to the winner was 5000 dollars worth of breast implants. The contest took place at midnight or shortly thereafter, only after everyone was good and drunk, I and many of my fellow leftist associates saw it as exploiting and degrading towards women. It contributes to the many sexism that is in society, including the fact that date rape drugs are pretty common downtown on George Street (a very famous street full of clubs and bars in St John's)

It also can screw with people's minds, some men, or women, compare women in real life to those they see in magazines, which often are airbrushed, hours of makeup, paid to keep their bodies looking a certain way, and then RL men compare these to RL women. And some of them will think of women in a certain way. Plus the models are often in degrading positions.

[apathy maybe]

svetlana: What about gay porn? That is porn by men for men? Is that exploitative of women too?

[careyprice31]

svetlana: What about gay porn? That is porn by men for men? Is that exploitative of women too?

I do not know about gay porn. Have actually never even seen any. Only just heard of it a little.

I was talking here about straight porn.

about gay porn, I have no idea about that.

Someone else would have to answer that. i cannot.

but about straight porn, i know for a fact it mostly objectifies women.

[Marsella]

as rape occurs most often in countries where porn is actually restricted and there is an absence of open discussion of sexual issues, which results in sexual frustration which can only be released through the forced use of another person's body for sexual pleasure - for example, in Saudi Arabia.

Rape is not the result of penned up male pressure or sexual frustration.

Its reflective of the role of women in society generally, as well as attitudes of men to women; which is largely one of domination.

Open discussion about sexual issues would matter very little in a society which still has patriarchal values.

The following says it really well, so I'll just copy and paste it:


Myth: A rapist is a sexually unfulfilled man carried away by a sudden uncontrollable surge of sexual desire.


Reality: A rapist is a man whose sexuality finds its expression in domination, control and degradation of a victim. The majority of rapes are planned in advance.


This myth rationalizes rape and excuses the rapist by arguing that rape is an impulsive act, innate and universal‑an aspect of "animal nature," motivated by sexual needs which cannot go unfulfilled. This is not borne out by cross‑cultural studies; they suggest that male aggression and hostility expressed thru sexuality are culturally induced, learned behaviors rather than man's "natural" instinct.

Both victims' experiences and independent interviews with rapists strongly suggest that the desire to control, humiliate and violate is a primary motivation in rape. [2 ]This theory partially coincides with findings from limited studies conducted at prisons and mental institutions. Of the convicted rapists studied, most seem to be motivated by feelings of contempt and hostility toward women and by a variety of rage‑producing conditions in their lives.[3]


In a culture where masculinity is equated with control, force, dominance, power, strength and competitiveness, rape is an extreme acting out of these qualities. Insofar as sex is an area where these attitudes about masculinity are most intensely expressed, sexuality does play a part in the rapist's act of aggression.

Myth: An imbalance in the sex ratio causes rape; legalizing prostitution would reduce rape.


Reality: Rape is primarily motivated by the man's "need" to control and humiliate a victim, not by his "sexual need."


The sex ratio theory states that men resort to rape because they are unable to secure legitimate sexual partners. It goes hand in hand with the theory that legalizing prostitution would decrease rape.


A variety of studies refute this myth. Three cities which allowed open prostitution experienced a decline in rape after prostitution was again prohibited. [13] Rapists include men who do not patronize prostitutes. Rapists include men who have "girlfriends," or are married, or living with women.[14] Statistical studies of reported rapes show that the majority of rapists are well below the age of males who most frequently use prostitutes. Finally, in Vietnam, brothels for the American military were officially sanctioned and incorporated into the base‑camp recreation areas and yet G.I. rape and sexual abuse of Vietnamese women and girls is one of the most atrocious chapters of violence in U.S. history.[15]
INSTEAD OF PRISONS: A HANDBOOK FOR ABOLITIONISTS (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/instead_of_prisons/)

And yes, Drosera said it best, as with most things they contain the prejudices of the times in which they are created. Porn is no different.

[Reuben]

Svetlana: [porn] also gives notion to the idea that people, mostly women, are sex objects there for men's pleasure.


The assumption made in this statement is that pornography represents a framework through which peole come to understand social reality, hence if women are projected in a certain way in pornography then this wil be how the viewer comes to women in society at large. The reality , however, is that when people lok at porn they are consciously engaging in fantasy. In this sense this argument against porn is oin some ways analogious to the spurious links people often make between viollence in computer games and real life violence.

[apathy maybe]

Previous discussions on porn:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/porn-t22079/index.html - 2004
http://www.revleft.com/vb/porn-t34732/index.html - 2005
http://www.revleft.com/vb/porn-t46622/index.html - 2006
http://www.revleft.com/vb/unionizing-porn-industry-t61025/index.html - 2007, unionizing the porn industry.

So yeah, a popular topic.

Here are a few examples of what i see as negatve stereotypes that are very common themes in most porn films:
Does this make all porn bad though? The answer, fuck no...


The illegal Mexican immigrant who has to fuck a border guard to stay in the US.

The Asian dragon lady or submissive Asian lady who yearns for some "white meat" to abuse or to be abused by to fulfil her sexual desires.

The black guy with the big penis who can get any woman he wants on account of his penis size.

The dumb blonde who is basically there for men to shag whenever they want (Usually via taking advantage of her dumbness).

And then you have the sexualy liberated European woman who will take sex from wherever she can get it.
I have to say, you watch strange porn...


So yeah i would say that, to a degree, in some circumstances porn does reinforce negative generalised stereotypes amongst certain people which could lead to bad consequences in real life situations (Abuse, rape, etc), would you agree?
Everything can produce negative generalised stereotypes. It is an aspect of culture. Porn is not bad, in and of it self, any more then (as noted above) literature is bad in and of itself.

This thread is bollocks, it doesn't say anything that we don't already know.
(Except that EL KABLAMO likes to make crappy "jokes" that are almost pseudo-sexist...)


but about straight porn, i know for a fact it mostly objectifies women.
Look love, I would suggest that you have been watching the wrong porn. Go and find some porn that is made for women by women. There are at least a few sites that exist.

Of course, if you are looking at porn made for straight men, it is going to objectify women (you have also yet to show how this is a bad thing). If you look at porn made for gay men, it objectifies men.

Porn is not a bad thing, objectification is not (necessarily) a bad thing. But of course, negative stereotypes are bad, but it doesn't happen in all porn.

[careyprice31]

You might be right. Its more complicated than that.

After all both world wars and the violations of the native american people and all the rapes of Berlin women took place by people who have never even played "GoldenEye" or any computer games or video games.

[Dr Mindbender]

^^^ Isn't it mandatory already for the guys to wear condoms nowadays (especially with some of the more recent AIDS episodes)?


Actually no. They have intense screening for AIDS and I saw on a documentary in California they have an STD clinic that caters specifically for porn stars.
Apparently the porn film makers won't give you work unless you can provide a doctor's certificate proving that you don't have HIV/AIDS.

Bearing in mind the content of most of the films, a condom probably wouldn't be much use seeing as in about 99% of the films it ends with the man ejaculating over the woman's orifices.

[Dr Mindbender]

Rape is not the result of penned up male pressure or sexual frustration.

Its reflective of the role of women in society generally, as well as attitudes of men to women; which is largely one of domination.


...so are you saying that in a world without anti-female sexism there will be no male on female rape? I somehow doubt that.

The alienation of working class males is as big a motivation of rape as the projected role of females within society. Equality for women is not enough, we need rid of capitalism too.

[Marsella]

...so are you saying that in a world without anti-female sexism there will be no male on female rape? I somehow doubt that.

Yes, sexism has a big role in the fact that women are raped and not men.

Are there other factors? Sure, but patriarchy is the prevailing one, not some sort of 'natural urge' for men to express their sexual frustration through rape (which is really just a sell out of an excuse).


The alienation of working class males is as big a motivation of rape as the projected role of females within society. Equality for women is not enough, we need rid of capitalism too.

Alienation of working class males? What do you mean by that?

Anyway, statistics probably prove this wrong anyway. Rape occurs across class boundaries and is probably just as prevalent amongst wealthy classes as poor classes. I remember reading a study on this, but would be happy to be proven wrong.

Rape is not inherent to capitalism and nor is patriarchy.

Such things can be fought now.

[Marsella]

I found this somewhat limited peripheral comment on the matter:


Until recently, sociological and psychological research conducted on convicted rapists tended to verify this myth, focusing on psychological characteristics, family background and "criminal subculture" of the rapist rather than dominant cultural factors and norms which might encourage sexual aggression against females. [8]


The scanty information we do have, however--F.B.I. U.C.R. statistics, recent sociological studies, statistics and information from rape crisis centers, and interviews with victims and rapists‑all refute the myth of the psychologically deranged rapist. Altho the psychotic rapist does exist, as does the psychotic murderer, he is the extreme exception. Listening to victims and to the few rapists who have spoken out, we discover that there is no "typical" rapist but that he is less likely to be a "deviant sexual psychopath" than a married businessman, a street‑wise teenager or a fraternity brother.



Those men (rapists) were the most normal men there (San Luis Obispo prison). They had a lot of hang‑ups, but they were the same hang‑ups as men walking the street. ‑Alan Taylor, parole officer, quoted in Pat Miller and Joanne Parrent, "Some Factual Information," in Kathy Barry, et al., ed., Stop Rape (Ann Arbor, Michigan, Women Against Rape, 1971) p. 2

[Dr Mindbender]

Yes, sexism has a big role in the fact that women are raped and not men.
what a nonsensical statement. What about gay rape? It does happen.





Alienation of working class males? What do you mean by that?
I'm referring to the lifestyle that is sold to the male proletarian by the capitalistic media. The status that he cannot possibly acheive of privilege and glamour, that becomes synonomous with what most women find to be attractive qualities in a sexual partner such as prosperity and life security. (The media are equally guilty of selling this image to women so I'm not trying to put any blame on either gender, this is a socio-political problem).

His frustration to obtain these qualities is what leads him to rape. If you look at regions where there is less effect of western decadence or religious zeolousness, I dare say the rape figures will also go down.


Rape occurs across class boundaries and is probably just as prevalent amongst wealthy classes as poor classes. I remember reading a study on this, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
I'd be willing to bet that while rape isnt exclusive to the working class, the figures certainly are biased towards it. A beourgioise man can afford high maintenance prostitutes or call girls to satisfy his wants while a worker cannot. Why would he risk his position and privilege to rape a girl who would possibly go to the police?

[Marsella]

what a nonsensical statement. What about gay rape? It does happen.

What a nonsensical statement.

Rape against women, I would guess, is far more common.


I'm referring to the lifestyle that is sold to the male proletarian by the capitalistic media. The status that he cannot possibly acheive of privilege and glamour, that becomes synonomous with what most women find to be attractive qualities in a sexual partner such as prosperity and life security. (The media are equally guilty of selling this image to women so I'm not trying to put any blame on either gender, this is a socio-political problem).

'I can't affort that luxury car therefore I am going to rape someone. I blame the media.' :rolleyes:

Even in your reasoning females would rape too, since they are sold an unachievable social image as well as way of life.

Yet females raping men is rarer. Why?


His frustration to obtain these qualities is what leads him to rape.

I would think it would be a lot more complex than that.


If you look at regions where there is less effect of western decadence or religious zeolousness, I dare say the rape figures will also go down.

Western decadence :lol:

More to the point, I am trying to think of a place which is not affected by western decadence or religion, often they are mutually exclusive.

Just a thought that occurred to me, probably one of the most prevalent areas of rape would be date rape (which for obvious reasons would be pretty difficult to measure).

Now that is not an area affected by 'alienation' as you call it.

Rather, its a case of males dominating females.


A beourgioise man can afford high maintenance prostitutes or call girls to satisfy his wants while a worker cannot. Why would he risk his position and privilege to rape a girl who would possibly go to the police?

Because rape doesn't have so much to do with sexual gratification, but rather it has to do with a dominating sexist attitude.

In fact, 90% of rapists surveyed in a study, found that they were attracted to consensual sex; they didn't rape to be sexually fulfilled, but rather it was born of a dominating sexist attitude.

Besides, most men can get laid if they take the time (even the ugly ones). And most would probably afford the funds for a prostitute (they aren't that expensive you know).

But rape isn't about fulfilling sexual desire!

[bcbm]

Marsella is arguing this well and has been hitting the nail pretty much on the head. I'll just add this thread seems to be relying on the notion of this "sex-crazed male rapist" lurking in the shadows for women to assault, when this is absolutely not the case. That is the minority, by a long shot, of rapes. In most rapes, the victim knows, and may be friends of even romantically involved, the perpetrator.

[Dr Mindbender]

What a nonsensical statement.

Rape against women, I would guess, is far more common.

I agree but you were insinuating that men never get raped which is very different.




'I can't affort that luxury car therefore I am going to rape someone. I blame the media.' :rolleyes:

Even in your reasoning females would rape too, since they are sold an unachievable social image as well as way of life.
Not true. By in large, women are sold the idea that often regardless of class, their aesthetic beauty can carry them through to the upper enchelons of society. If you look at todays gossip media, this seems to hold true for a lot of celebrity or well off women originally born into working class society.
It is very rare for a male to use the beauty train alone as their vehicle to prosperity. Moreover, in western culture the onus is traditionally on the man to make the effort to initiating sexual relationships. It is often discouraged or frowned upon when a woman does so for her fear of being branded a 'slut'.


Yet females raping men is rarer. Why?

Sociological reasons aside, it is anatomically impractical for a woman to rape a man because a man cannot have sex with a woman unless he feels sexually consensual in the first place.



I would think it would be a lot more complex than that.
I agree, i was pointing that out as a main or co-factor of rape. What I don't agree with is your idea that is somehow a male's desire to mantain the patriarchal status quo is his sole motive. A rapist doesnt think, ''hmmm think I'll go out to oppress some women today''. He does it mainly because he's horny and no one will sleep with him on their terms!




Western decadence :lol:

More to the point, I am trying to think of a place which is not affected by western decadence or religion, often they are mutually exclusive.
The rainforest tribes?
:confused:



Just a thought that occurred to me, probably one of the most prevalent areas of rape would be date rape (which for obvious reasons would be pretty difficult to measure).

Now that is not an area affected by 'alienation' as you call it.

Rather, its a case of males dominating females.
I think you have to judge each case on it's merits. Either way I still don't think it proves your point.



Because rape doesn't have so much to do with sexual gratification, but rather it has to do with a dominating sexist attitude.

In fact, 90% of rapists surveyed in a study, found that they were attracted to consensual sex; they didn't rape to be sexually fulfilled, but rather it was born of a dominating sexist attitude.
Just because those 90% said they were attracted to consensual sex doesnt mean they were getting it on a regular basis.

I'd be willing to bet most of those men had psychological or social issues that hindered them from getting into consensual relationships.


Besides, most men can get laid if they take the time (even the ugly ones). And most would probably afford the funds for a prostitute (they aren't that expensive you know).

What if you want sex on a regular basis? Even a cheap prostitute would be outside the spending limits of most working men in that case!

[Marsella]

Thanks BCBM. :)

And you're right on the relationship between the victim and the rapist.

In a 1996 Australian survey, 69.7% of rape victims knew their rapist.

And that was where about 30% of females reporting such rapes.

Now when you factor why the other 70% do not report being raped, that original figure would probably rise (owing to the fact that they would not have reported being raped due to it being someone close to them and the consequences of that).

[Redmau5]

Just because those 90% said they were attracted to consensual sex doesnt mean they were getting it on a regular basis.

Rape is about power and domination, not sexual frustration. I pretty much agree with what Marsella has said.

[Dr Mindbender]

Rape is about power and domination, not sexual frustration. I pretty much agree with what Marsella has said.

The truth is it's probably a bit of both. I don't think the average joe that goes out and rapes has a complex understanding of the patriarchal hegemony.

[Redmau5]

The truth is it's probably a bit of both. I don't think the average joe that goes out and rapes has a complex understanding of the patriarchal hegemony.

But that's exactly the point. 'Average Joe' has no need for a complex understanding of patriarchy because it's practically ingrained into his mentality.

[Marsella]

I agree but you were insinuating that men never get raped which is very different.I don't see how I could have implied that, but it wasn't my intention.


Sociological reasons aside, it is anatomically impractical for a woman to rape a man because a man cannot have sex with a woman unless he feels sexually consensual in the first place.I'm totally baffled what you mean by that last part. Actually, I just got it - a man cannot be raped because he needs an erection to get fucked?

Well that is not true, legally speaking.

The term 'rape' has actually been replaced with 'sexually penetrated' in the legal codes where I live.

Basically, that includes penetration of any kind. So a woman could 'rape' a man with a dildo or her fingers or any other instrument. Likewise, a man could rape a woman by oral sex. Essentially, vaginal sex is not the only way someone can be raped.

So it is quite anatomically practical.

Besides the legal definition, the main thing which characterises rape is non-consensual 'sex.'


What I don't agree with is your idea that is somehow a male's desire to mantain the patriarchal status quo is his sole motive. A rapist doesnt think, ''hmmm think I'll go out to oppress some women today''. He does it mainly because he's horny and no one will sleep with him on their terms!Okay I understand what you're saying.

Firstly, men, as you say, don't go out with patriarchal rhetoric and then act on it. But their actions say the same thing anyway.

Secondly, its been pretty well disproven that rape is not to satisfy sexual desire which stems from a lack of someone to fuck.

I mean you could look at husbands raping their wives for example.


The rainforest tribes?
:confused::lol:

Well actually, the Aboriginal 'tribes' in society (oops I mean Australia) were matriarchial, although still had religious aspects. Perhaps you have a point. :lol:


Just because those 90% said they were attracted to consensual sex doesnt mean they were getting it on a regular basis.Right. Could you prove that sexual desperation leads to rape?


I'd be willing to bet most of those men had psychological or social issues that hindered them from getting into consensual relationships.
Well that article that I linked before disproves that myth. By all accounts rapists are 'normal' men.


Not true. By in large, women are sold the idea that often regardless of class, their aesthetic beauty can carry them through to the upper enchelons of society. If you look at todays gossip media, this seems to hold true for a lot of celebrity or well off women originally born into working class society.
It is very rare for a male to use the beauty train alone as their vehicle to prosperity. Moreover, in western culture the onus is traditionally on the man to make the effort to initiating sexual relationships. It is often discouraged or frowned upon when a woman does so for her fear of being branded a 'slut'.Interesting opinions, I'll try and respond to them another time when its not 4:00 AM. :P

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't see how I could have implied that, but it wasn't my intention.
Okay, fair enough.




I'm totally baffled what you mean by that last part. Actually, I just got it - a man cannot be raped because he needs an erection to get fucked?

Well that is not true, legally speaking.

The term 'rape' has actually been replaced with 'sexually penetrated' in the legal codes where I live.

Basically, that includes penetration of any kind. So a woman could 'rape' a man with a dildo or her fingers or any other instrument. Likewise, a man could rape a woman by oral sex. Essentially, vaginal sex is not the only way someone can be raped.

So it is quite anatomically practical.

Besides the legal definition, the main thing which characterises rape is non-consensual 'sex.'

I dont know what the culture is there in that respect, but I think in this country a lot of guys would have a tough time proving to the jury that a woman stuck her finger up their ass without consent!
Mind you I doubt a lot of guys, (including yours truly) would object to that! lol
:drool::lol:



Okay I understand what you're saying.

Firstly, men, as you say, don't go out with patriarchal rhetoric and then act on it. But their actions say the same thing anyway.

Secondly, its been pretty well disproven that rape is not to satisfy sexual desire which stems from a lack of someone to fuck.


I mean you could look at husbands raping their wives for example.

I'm think the middle part is debatable but as for the last part about husbands and wives, a wife within a marriage which is doomed or has lost it's spark could concievably not be very receptive to sex (even to her husband) in which case I could see why the husband would choose to rape rather than cheat on her if he had it in his head that was the lesser of 2 evils.




:lol:

Well actually, the Aboriginal 'tribes' in society were matriarchial, although still had religious aspects. Perhaps you have a point. :lol:
I could also have mentioned North Korea or to a lesser extent Iran, but thats going off topic, really.





Right. Could you prove that sexual desperation leads to rape?


Can you prove that it does'nt?





Well that article that I linked before disproves that myth. By all accounts rapists are 'normal' men.
By 'psychological' or 'social' problems I'm not referring to paranoid schizophrenics or bi-polar personality disorders. There are more subtle forms with subtler symptoms, such as simply finding a hard time approaching the opposite sex. I'm no rapist, but i certainly am in a similar circumstance and before i was in a relationship i would retreat into my comfort zone rather than approach women. My other half has similar issues that i won't go into.






Interesting opinions, I'll try and respond to them another time when its not 4:00 AM. :P

Enjoy your sleep. :)

[jake williams]

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf

There's a bunch more but I can't be arsed to find them.

[Dr Mindbender]

But that's exactly the point. 'Average Joe' has no need for a complex understanding of patriarchy because it's practically ingrained into his mentality.
I'm not disputing that it is, what I'm arguing is that the lifestyle sold by the capitalist media is an exacerbating factor, and that by in large, goes hand in hand with class disparity.

[bcbm]

I dont know what the culture is there in that respect, but I think in this country a lot of guys would have a tough time proving to the jury that a woman stuck her finger up their ass without consent!
Mind you I doubt a lot of guys, (including yours truly) would object to that! lol

Congrats on trivializing male rape and sexual abuse, a very real problem that is often scoffed at, ignored or kept hidden by the victims because of shit like this.


By 'psychological' or 'social' problems I'm not referring to paranoid schizophrenics or bi-polar personality disorders. There are more subtle forms with subtler symptoms, such as simply finding a hard time approaching the opposite sex. I'm no rapist, but i certainly am in a similar circumstance and before i was in a relationship i would retreat into my comfort zone rather than approach women. My other half has similar issues that i won't go into.

As Marsella has repeatedly pointed out, the data suggests this isn't really the case. Most rapists are "normal" in all senses, and often have long term relationships with women, including marriage. It isn't about sexual frustration- this is what all of the major studies and support organizations suggest.

[Dr Mindbender]

Congrats on trivializing male rape and sexual abuse, a very real problem that is often scoffed at, ignored or kept hidden by the victims because of shit like this.
I wasnt trivialising rape at all, i was merely pointing out the fact that in terms of present social constructs the idea of a woman 'raping' a man is fairly impossible, no matter how you look at it.

Obviously a man raping a woman, or a man raping a man is very different.




As Marsella has repeatedly pointed out, the data suggests this isn't really the case. Most rapists are "normal" in all senses, and often have long term relationships with women, including marriage. It isn't about sexual frustration- this is what all of the major studies and support organizations suggest.
Marriage or long term relationships (as i am in) doesnt guarantee 'normality' or negate the fact they may have subtle or undiagnosed social problems.

But then i suppose with most facets of health, 'perfect' mental health is probably fairly rare anyway.

[TC]

I think there is a tendency among leftists to attempt to over-explain social phenomenon in terms of class and capitalism...

While its true that all important, dominant forms of social interaction of groups of people are based on socio-economic relations and the resultant power relations, those relations need not explain individual experience such as straight men watching porn, or statistical outliers such as rapists who represent a small, non-dominant portion of social interaction.

To recognize that individual experience and statistical outliers need not have any functional explanations rooted in the economy is not a retreat from Marxism rather its a requirement for applying historical materialism as a science applied when it can truly explain the data while recognizing its conceptual, categorical and empirical limitations.


Porn doesn't reinforce stereotypes, its marketed to existent sexual fantasies and sexual fantasy is an individual experience, one formed in a social context sure, but certain common fantasy types (such as novelty, dominance/submission, irresistibility) and physical body types (shape, degree of hair and hair style, and yes, skin tone) are impulsively appealing to large overlapping minorities of people, cross culturally. The brain is complicated, human behavior and desire is complicated, but if any part of human desire has at least a partial biological basis, sexuality is surely it, and there is simply no experimental way to determine what aspects of sexuality are biologically determined and what aspects are socially determined because its impossible to control the variables involved. Therefore all claims about the social, or for that matter, biological, basis for particular sexual desires are epistemically problematic.


Rape isn't caused by capitalism, but its not caused by sexism either, rapists represent a tiny minority of men whereas virtually all men experience social alienation from capitalism and sexism. Its neither the result of sexual frustration or social alienation; lots of people feel sexually frustrated and/or socially alienated but have no interest in going out and raping someone.


I think, if you consider it logically, there are really three prerequisites for rape: 1. an atypical, anti-social sexuality (rape is sexual for rapists because the act of degrading another is sexual for rapists), 2. contempt (even if someone gets off on degradation, they wont rape someone without already holding them in contempt), and 3. opportunity (even if the first two are true, they wont be able to without an opportunity to do it and a reasonable chance of getting away with it).

Men make up the overwhelming majority of rapists because people with the desire to degrade other sexually are disproportionately male (and this desire is probably biological, which is not to say that the typical male is more prone to degrading sex than the typical female, or in fact anything about typical male or female sexuality, but only that the minority who happen to be prone to degrading sex are skewed by gender; a common psudo-science mistake is to think that outliers in a population are relevant to the mode or vice-versa) , and men have disproportionate opportunity (they're larger and much better physically equipted).

Reducing or eliminating rape isn't something that can be done by eliminating capitalism or even sexism but by reducing the opportunity (i.e. increasing enforcement) and/or reducing the number of people who hold others in contempt. This is an achievable aim within capitalism to the extent it is within socialism.

[Entrails Konfetti]

(Except that EL KABLAMO likes to make crappy "jokes" that are almost pseudo-sexist...)


I know, I shouldn't joke about how black 'n white the starting thread was.

You don't get my humor.

[Dr Mindbender]

Rape isn't caused by capitalism, but its not caused by sexism either, rapists represent a tiny minority of men whereas virtually all men experience social alienation from capitalism and sexism. Its neither the result of sexual frustration or social alienation; lots of people feel sexually frustrated and/or socially alienated but have no interest in going out and raping someone.
I agree that it's a tiny proportion who rape, but dont you agree that the consumerist culture that is engendered by capitalism helps to exacerbate the likliehood of a potential rapist raping?



I think, if you consider it logically, there are really three prerequisites for rape: 1. an atypical, anti-social sexuality (rape is sexual for rapists because the act of degrading another is sexual for rapists), 2. contempt (even if someone gets off on degradation, they wont rape someone without already holding them in contempt), and 3. opportunity (even if the first two are true, they wont be able to without an opportunity to do it and a reasonable chance of getting away with it).

Men make up the overwhelming majority of rapists because people with the desire to degrade other sexually are disproportionately male (and this desire is probably biological, which is not to say that the typical male is more prone to degrading sex than the typical female, or in fact anything about typical male or female sexuality, but only that the minority who happen to be prone to degrading sex are skewed by gender; a common psudo-science mistake is to think that outliers in a population are relevant to the mode or vice-versa) , and men have disproportionate opportunity (they're larger and much better physically equipted).

Reducing or eliminating rape isn't something that can be done by eliminating capitalism or even sexism but by reducing the opportunity (i.e. increasing enforcement) and/or reducing the number of people who hold others in contempt. This is an achievable aim within capitalism to the extent it is within socialism.

but removing the 'opportunites' for rape doesnt help remove the motives of them raping in the first place. And prosecution doesnt work, because all you do is move the problem into a crowded prison where other inmates are liable to be raped.

[TC]

I agree that it's a tiny proportion who rape, but dont you agree that the consumerist culture that is engendered by capitalism helps to exacerbate the likliehood of a potential rapist raping?Simply put: no.

The urge to blame capitalism for everything bad should not override the scientific reliance on data to lead theory rather than theory imposed on the data.

The reality is that rates of rape are far higher in pre-capitalist societies, in societies with social orders that have broken down, and in generally imisurated societies, than advanced consumerist service economy based imperialist societies.

The media, porn, etc, have absolutely nothing to do with rape, in fact, empirically speaking (and i'm not saying this is casual), societies with the most access to porn and consumer culture media tend to have the least amount of material gender inequality and the least amount of rape, and societies with the most restrictions on porn and pop culture tend to have the greatest material inequality between genders and comparatively higher amounts of rape.

Wanting to blame consumerism and wanting to tie feeling uncomfortable about porn to rape doesn't make them at fault or even contributing factors.


but removing the 'opportunites' for rape doesnt help remove the motives of them raping in the first place.Like it or not, the motive is in fact sexual (not because they're "sex crazed", most sex crazed men aren't interested in raping anyone, its a minority sexual interest that doesn't necessarily indicate anything about majority sexuality) and you can't change what (some) people get off on, you can just discourage them from acting on it in anti-social ways. Just like with pedophiles, you can't remove the motive you can just remove the opportunity and the willingness by making it more difficult to get away with or making them empathetic towards potential victims.



And prosecution doesnt work, because all you do is move the problem into a crowded prison where other inmates are liable to be raped.Thats ridiculous. The problem with prison overcrowding is because non-violent drug offenders serve mandatory minimum sentences for committing "crimes" which should never be criminalized in the first place, and property offenders who are created by capitalism; rapists are among those criminals who society of all classes has a collective interest in seeing imprisoned.

[Wanted Man]

The illegal Mexican immigrant who has to fuck a border guard to stay in the US.

The Asian dragon lady or submissive Asian lady who yearns for some "white meat" to abuse or to be abused by to fulfil her sexual desires.
What kind of porn do you watch, dude? You'd have to intentionally look for it to find something like that. Such movies more likely cater to already existing audience. Let's be realistic for a moment. If I went to a porn site, I'd be unlikely to find movies involving an "Asian dragon lady". And even if I did, I doubt that it would suddenly give me deep yearnings for "Asian dragon ladies" that would cause me to go out and rape Asian women specifically. That's the kind of Lifetime TV (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/movie-reviews/cyber-seduction-his.php) line, where porn has some kind of weird magical power that turns men into addicts or rapists.

Which is quite mistaken, as has been explained in this thread in volumes already.


the sexualy liberated European woman
What's wrong with that?

[Dr Mindbender]

What kind of porn do you watch, dude? You'd have to intentionally look for it to find something like that. Such movies more likely cater to already existing audience. Let's be realistic for a moment. If I went to a porn site, I'd be unlikely to find movies involving an "Asian dragon lady". And even if I did, I doubt that it would suddenly give me deep yearnings for "Asian dragon ladies" that would cause me to go out and rape Asian women specifically. That's the kind of Lifetime TV (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/movie-reviews/cyber-seduction-his.php) line, where porn has some kind of weird magical power that turns men into addicts or rapists.

Which is quite mistaken, as has been explained in this thread in volumes already.


Actually, if you visit porn video sharing sites you'll find that the categories are often arranged by race. You'll find asian, latino and black genres. Although in the industry, black girls are referred to as 'ebony'. Wether or not that is intended to be derogitry I don't know.

[Reuben]

Tragic clown has really cut through a lot of crap here in a way that I could only aspire to.. Read her posts people.

[Wanted Man]

US: Yes, of course. But just how often are they specifically humiliated for being black or asian? And why would a perfectly innocent guy (because watching white-on-white missionary sex is apparently more "pure" - I didn't know conservative prejudices extended to pornography!) be corrupted into a racist rapist, all because of a bit of cliched smut?

[Dr Mindbender]

US: Yes, of course. But just how often are they specifically humiliated for being black or asian? And why would a perfectly innocent guy (because watching white-on-white missionary sex is apparently more "pure" - I didn't know conservative prejudices extended to pornography!) be corrupted into a racist rapist, all because of a bit of cliched smut?

if they arent taking issue with their race, then why the need to have these seperate categories? I think this is a point of principle, all porn is humiliating to a greater or lesser degree, the degree of humiliation seems to be a side issue.

[bcbm]

I think, if you consider it logically, there are really three prerequisites for rape: 1. an atypical, anti-social sexuality (rape is sexual for rapists because the act of degrading another is sexual for rapists), 2. contempt (even if someone gets off on degradation, they wont rape someone without already holding them in contempt),

As I understand the research, most rapists have normal sexuality (ie, they find consensual sex more appealing than rape) and know their victim in a friendly way, and will often want to continue that relationship afterwards, and may not understand what "rape" is.

[TC]

As I understand the research, most rapists have normal sexuality (ie, they find consensual sex more appealing than rape) and know their victim in a friendly way, and will often want to continue that relationship afterwards, and may not understand what "rape" is.

Eh...finding *both* consensual and non-consensual sex arousing is still an atypical sexuality though since most men find non-consensual or painful or otherwise non-enjoyment on the part of their partner to be distinct turn-offs...

...similarly most men who molest children find teenage and adult women more attractive, but most men find children sexually repulsive, those who molest children clearly don't.

[spartan]

What kind of porn do you watch, dude? You'd have to intentionally look for it to find something like that. Such movies more likely cater to already existing audience. Let's be realistic for a moment. If I went to a porn site, I'd be unlikely to find movies involving an "Asian dragon lady". And even if I did, I doubt that it would suddenly give me deep yearnings for "Asian dragon ladies" that would cause me to go out and rape Asian women specifically. That's the kind of Lifetime TV (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/movie-reviews/cyber-seduction-his.php) line, where porn has some kind of weird magical power that turns men into addicts or rapists.

I dont watch this type of porn i have simply come across it (Yes it is very easy to come across seeing how it is the most popular type of porn) on the internet nearly everytime i look at porn.


What's wrong with that?

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with it.

But people seeing this porn might get the wrong idea and generalise certain women as "easy" who "want it" all the time (Even if she says no), do you see what i am getting at?

I have no problem with porn, i just find it worrying that the people who make it feel the need to include generalised stereotypes of people that wouldnt feel out of place in the porn propaganda of some racist movement trying to make people associate certain other people with certain things (With the aim of getting the reader mad about that).

[Raisa]

As I understand the research, most rapists have normal sexuality (ie, they find consensual sex more appealing than rape) and know their victim in a friendly way, and will often want to continue that relationship afterwards, and may not understand what "rape" is.


Fuck that...no pun intended.
when a person says no and cries.....while youre doing it, you know exactly what youre doing is rape.
And you should be shot for doing that.

[Unicorn]

if they arent taking issue with their race, then why the need to have these seperate categories?
Because people enjoy watching interracial porn. Many people consider it more erotic. If anything interracial porn makes interracial relationships more socially acceptable which his a good thing, IMO.

[Awful Reality]

Because people enjoy watching interracial porn. Many people consider it more erotic. If anything interracial porn makes interracial relationships more socially acceptable which his a good thing, IMO.

If it did that, people would see interracial relationships as being purely sexual.

[Awful Reality]

Fuck that...no pun intended.
when a person says no and cries.....while youre doing it, you know exactly what youre doing is rape.
And you should be shot for doing that.

I agree...

But Black Coffee Black Metal is right. Most rape begins as a request for consensual sex. Then, when the denial of that request is ignored, it becomes rape. It is not, as Marsella is claiming, people wanting to feel powerful.

[Atrus]

The times when rape is about power is when a man randomly jumps a woman and rapes her in an attack. But I agree, nine times out of ten rape is just ignoring a request.

[Redmau5]

It is not, as Marsella is claiming, people wanting to feel powerful.

Yes, it is. A rapist's sexual gratification comes from the control over his victim, not the actual sexual act. Soldiers in war don't use rape because they are "sexually frustrated" but because it is a tool which strikes fear into the civilian population.

As Marsella said, most people, even the ugly ones, can get laid if they try hard enough. But a rapist does not want consensual sex because that does not gratify him. Rape is an act of power and control over a seemingly weaker victim.

[careyprice31]

His frustration to obtain these qualities is what leads him to rape. If you look at regions where there is less effect of western decadence or religious zeolousness, I dare say the rape figures will also go down.

?

In South Africa, rape stats are extremely high. and they rape even babies down there. And thats not a westernized country.

[Awful Reality]

Yes, it is. A rapist's sexual gratification comes from the control over his victim, not the actual sexual act. Soldiers in war don't use rape because they are "sexually frustrated" but because it is a tool which strikes fear into the civilian population.

As Marsella said, most people, even the ugly ones, can get laid if they try hard enough. But a rapist does not want consensual sex because that does not gratify him. Rape is an act of power and control over a seemingly weaker victim.

Military rape is a completely different argument as it is under completely different circumstances, etc, as normal rape. They are so different they have little place in the same discussion.

Most rape begins as coercion. Man wants to have sex with woman, woman denies, man tries to convince woman. This leads to rape. Generally, rape is not people who want sadistic sexual gratification, rather who just want gratification.

Simply: People rape because they want sex. Not because they like abusing people.

[careyprice31]

Military rape is a completely different argument as it is under completely different circumstances, etc, as normal rape. They are so different they have little place in the same discussion.

Most rape begins as coercion. Man wants to have sex with woman, woman denies, man tries to convince woman. This leads to rape. Generally, rape is not people who want sadistic sexual gratification, rather who just want gratification.

Simply: People rape because they want sex. Not because they like abusing people.

What about people like Ted Bundy? He had like at least two serious gf's, one who dumped him and one he dumped himself, he was quite intelligent and had nice looks, why would he have needed or wanted to rape anybody. He had everything going for him. But he did rape. and raped quite a bit.

I just dont think its a simple as the man wanted a good fuck.

and the other poster who said its anatomically harder for a woman to rape a man than vice versa, and u also said the man needed to be horny to be raped, im sorry but the penis can become erect for reasons other than horniness. It can be erected even in the doctor's office having an examination, for example. Different feelings and touches can cause erections. It need not be because he got aroused sexually.

Oh and one of my male friends got raped by a woman he was dating. He had an erection, and she sat on him, forcing his penis inside her when he did not want that. He is 35 years old now and hasnt had sex for more than 10 years because of what had happened to him.

[Awful Reality]

What about people like Ted Bundy? He had like at least two serious gf's, one who dumped him and one he dumped himself, he was quite intelligent and had nice looks, why would he have needed or wanted to rape anybody. He had everything going for him. But he did rape. and raped quite a bit.

I just dont think its a simple as the man wanted a good fuck.

Oh, there will always be screwed up people like that. But I'm talking about the majority. There's also a lot of rape in the ghettos about gangsters trying to prove their manliness. But that doesn't speak for most rape.


and the other poster who said its anatomically harder for a woman to rape a man than vice versa, and u also said the man needed to be horny to be raped, im sorry but the penis can become erect for reasons other than horniness. It can be erected even in the doctor's office having an examination, for example. Different feelings and touches can cause erections. It need not be because he got aroused sexually.

And what about oral sex? That's not so hard (no pun intended, although it's a good one). Also, as a male, I'm guessing that regardless of consent, he would get an erection anyway.


Oh and one of my male friends got raped by a woman he was dating. He had an erection, and she sat on him, forcing his penis inside her when he did not want that. He is 35 years old now and hasnt had sex for more than 10 years because of what had happened to him.

Damn. I feel really bad for him:(
There's actually a lot more female-on-male rape than people think, much because most of the victims are too "macho" to report it.

[careyprice31]

Oh, there will always be screwed up people like that. But I'm talking about the majority. There's also a lot of rape in the ghettos about gangsters trying to prove their manliness. But that doesn't speak for most rape.



And what about oral sex? That's not so hard (no pun intended, although it's a good one). Also, as a male, I'm guessing that regardless of consent, he would get an erection anyway.



Damn. I feel really bad for him:(
There's actually a lot more female-on-male rape than people think, much because most of the victims are too "macho" to report it.

Yea, acquaintance rape is the most common form of rape where the rape victim knows the attacker. Therefore there are far more of them than there are Ted Bundies in the world (rapists who attack strangers).

According to what i read though, the rapist who attacks strangers is the most difficult to treat.

Cute pun, btw. oral sex is not that hard Haha. I had a little lol.

Yea he would probably get an erection whether he wanted sex or not. As i said, erections can happen for lots of reasons.

btw thank you. Im sure my friend would really appreciate that that you feel bad for him. :)

He was one of the men you mentioned who did not report the assault.

[Awful Reality]

In South Africa, rape stats are extremely high. and they rape even babies down there. And thats not a westernized country.

I can never figure out all those rape statistics from South Africa. Different culture, I guess?

[Luís Henrique]

In South Africa, rape stats are extremely high. and they rape even babies down there. And thats not a westernized country.

South Africa is not a Western country?!

How comes?

Luís Henrique

[Invader Zim]

South Africa is not a Western country?!

How comes?

Luís Henrique

I, personally, lack the knowledge to explain quite why South Africa is termed as a 'Middle country' on the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index), but it does.

[jake williams]

I can never figure out all those rape statistics from South Africa. Different culture, I guess?
There's different reasons, but part of it is the myth about raping a virgin being a cure for AIDS. Like that's actually an important force on the statistic.


Anyway, we would do well do differentiate between hugely different sex crimes. The random assault of a stranger has virtually nothing to do with the sort of "muddled consent" situations which, although they're certainly not good and they're not even blameless, are completely different things with different motives and solutions. Further there is something of a continuum between these, and other things.

[Luís Henrique]

I, personally, lack the knowledge to explain quite why South Africa is termed as a 'Middle country' on the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index), but it does.

Sorry, but how does "human development index" relate to the "westerness" of a country?

Luís Henrique

[Dr Mindbender]

Now that i've thought about it i think part of the point i was trying to make last night is the way in which the capitalist media conceptualises sexual norms in order to make people feel worse about themselves to buy their crap. They lie to us about average standards, this in turn makes men feel inadequate about themselves compared to their peers and in turn more likely to rape. Does porn have an effect on that? Possibly, but I think the more destructive factor is the popular media in the way in which it puts on the pedestal the most sexually successful and promiscuous men.

[Redmau5]

Military rape is a completely different argument as it is under completely different circumstances, etc, as normal rape. They are so different they have little place in the same discussion.Military rape, as you call it, is exactly the same as "normal" rape. It's all about power and intimidation. They are not different at all.


Most rape begins as coercion. Man wants to have sex with woman, woman denies, man tries to convince woman. This leads to rape. Generally, rape is not people who want sadistic sexual gratification, rather who just want gratification.No it doesn't. Where the fuck are you getting this from? Generally, you have no idea what rape actually is, or it seems your ass is too close to your head. Rape has nothing to do with rapists needing sex. It's not hard to understand.


Simply: People rape because they want sex. Not because they like abusing people.Simply: you're full of shit. People do not rape because they want sex. People rape because they need a kick, a kick they can only get from controlling and inflicting pain on other people.


But that doesn't speak for most rape.Well, tell me about most rape. You seem to be an authority on the matter.


Also, as a male, I'm guessing that regardless of consent, he would get an erection anyway.As a male is the complete core of your opinion. Would you get an erection if you were terrified of being raped? Men do get erections for reasons other than being aroused, but if you were about to be raped, I can't imagine how you would become erect.

[jake williams]

I'd posit that much of the trauma caused to women by rape is caused by a society that makes women feel guilty for having sex.

[Redmau5]

I'd posit that much of the trauma caused to women by rape is caused by a society that makes women feel guilty for having sex.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were forced to have sex against their will?

If society didn't make women feel guilty about having sex, would they feel more comfortable about being raped?

[jake williams]

So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were forced to have sex against their will?
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Everything about it is a violent social construct, and if we simply tell the whiney *****es to buck up, they'll actually enjoy it. That's exactly what I said.


If society didn't make women feel guilty about having sex, would they feel more comfortable about being raped?
It's certainly plausible, if not quite likely. I'm not at all saying that they'll be comfortable with it, that it'll be even a little "okay" - but it would make it less horrible, it would remove an exacerbation.

[Redmau5]

It's certainly plausible, if not quite likely. I'm not at all saying that they'll be comfortable with it, that it'll be even a little "okay" - but it would make it less horrible, it would remove an exacerbation.

I don't think it would be less horrible. I understand what your getting at, but I can't imagine any situation where rape would be in anyway more acceptable in society.

[Luís Henrique]

svetlana: What about gay porn? That is porn by men for men? Is that exploitative of women too?

The strange idea that gay porn cannot be misogynistic...

Why not? After all, even a discourse that is not about sex at all can be misogynistic; how comes that gay porn cannot?

****************

Certainly porn reinforces negative stereotypes. Just like Christmas carols, or pizza ads. What it does not, is to particularly reinforce stereotypes, while no other human activity has anything to do with that...

Luís Henrique

[careyprice31]

So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were forced to have sex against their will?

If society didn't make women feel guilty about having sex, would they feel more comfortable about being raped?

"I'd posit that much of the trauma caused to women by rape is caused by a society that makes women feel guilty for having sex."

he's right. Did you read and study rape myths. They thrive upon the idea that women shouldnt be as sexually free as men are and that women can avoid being raped if they just acted in a certain way. Not wearing something revealing, for example.

I had to attend a seminar where we studied all of these things when I ran for student council at university. It was required. So I have studied these things.

One of the myths is the comforting thought of the rapist stranger in the bushes. Its comforting because......We know how to avoid bushes !
Very scary to think that your friend, might do this to you, eventhough this scenario is what is far more common than the bush scenario.

[Dr Mindbender]

...I'd also posit that if we didn't live in a society where the amount of sex a man has is the measure of his manhood, he would be less inclined to rape.

[apathy maybe]

svetlana: What about gay porn? That is porn by men for men? Is that exploitative of women too?The strange idea that gay porn cannot be misogynistic...

Why not? After all, even a discourse that is not about sex at all can be misogynistic; how comes that gay porn cannot?
Sorry? Is this directed at me? I didn't say that gay porn was misogynistic or not, I asked if it was exploitative of women.

Porn that is made by men, using only male actors, acting like men, directed at a male audience, and generally not involving women or people pretending to be women cannot be exploitative of women. It might well be exploitative of some or most or all of the men involved, but not women generally (nor even men generally I would suggest).

Can a discourse that is not at all about sex (I assume you mean the act of) be misogynistic? Sure. If two people are talking about how all women should be bare-foot, pregnant and in the kitchen while their husbands are out working, it could be said to be a misogynistic conversation. (Even though it has nothing to do with sex.)
However, a conversation between two people about the technical merits of LED light bulbs is unlikely to be misogynistic, unless one or both are unfavorably comparing women to something, or otherwise making derogatory comments about women generally.


Certainly porn reinforces negative stereotypes. Just like Christmas carols, or pizza ads. What it does not, is to particularly reinforce stereotypes, while no other human activity has anything to do with that...
And, I think I tend to agree with this, assuming I actually know what you are trying to say. (Which I might not.)