Fuck the police?

[Holden Caulfield]

do you see the police force as a opressive force in the pay of the bourgosie and direct opressors of the people,

or as people whos jobs is to protects people, and who sadly often get used in this way but are just as much victims of the society we live in as any other worker,

opinions, i think the second but i have the feeling that a fair few will disagree with me, my opinion is not concrete on this, sway me baby

[chegitz guevara]

You could have a dialectical view and see them as both.

[spartan]

I am sure that i heard somewhere that during the coal miner strikes in south Wales in the 80's, the local community level Police refused to come out and suppress the striking workers as they were fellow friends and neighbours.

The result was that the government had to call in cops from as far away as London to deal with the striking workers.

So not all coppers are tools of the Bourgeois, especially when they are told to forcefully suppress the people that they have been serving all their lives in their own community.

But the very institution of the Police in a Bourgeois society is one of oppression and upholding property rights, so overall they are just one of the many tools of Bourgeois oppression aimed at suppressing the workers which should be naturally be oppossed.

[Ultra-Violence]

The Police is the KKKlan its the Mafia we all live in a police state and soon theyll be after me and soon theyll be out FOR YOU! So you better make your stand if you know whats good for you!-MDC

[last_angry_man]

Here in LA, the police might as well be an occupying army. I've lived in NYC and Boston where the local cop might have lived next door, or at least in the neighborhood. That doesn't exist in LA; the cops all live out in places like Riverside and consider their commute into LA to be their deployment into 'enemy territory'. No one would ever confuse LA cops with being part of the neighborhood; they are armed goons riding around our streets until they can flee at the end of their shift.

Support CopWatch.com !

[Wanted Man]

I disagree with the line "all cops are bastards" purely on minuscule technicalities: not every individual cop will be a bastard, and there will be some cases like the one spartan mentioned. However "ACAB" sounds a lot better than "CIGTTBB" (cops in general tend to be bastards), so no complains from me on this one.

Regardless of your opinion on some specific cops, their role in society as a whole is pretty obvious. If they refuse to play that role in some cases, it still doesn't change the fact that they generally do. As such, most comrades would agree that police brutality should be struggled against militantly. For those who don't: enjoy this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-police-brutality-t73409/index.html).

[F9]

Cops=founders of many rascists actions allies with fascists and they always atack fans!As my oppinion ACAB!

Fuserg9:star:

[Ultra-Violence]

I disagree with the line "all cops are bastards" purely on minuscule technicalities: not every individual cop will be a bastard, and there will be some cases like the one spartan mentioned. However "ACAB" sounds a lot better than "CIGTTBB" (cops in general tend to be bastards), so no complains from me on this one.

Regardless of your opinion on some specific cops, their role in society as a whole is pretty obvious. If they refuse to play that role in some cases, it still doesn't change the fact that they generally do. As such, most comrades would agree that police brutality should be struggled against militantly. For those who don't: enjoy this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-police-brutality-t73409/index.html).


Well Obviously you never had a run with the cops huh?


last_angry_man

^^^^
SPEAK ON BROTHER! SPEAK ON!

i live in l.a too trust me one day were goanga have ours and im goana fucking make them fear me it aint goana be the other way around anymore the live in Simi valley TOO! by the way that like cop H.Q! and can you belive the whole funeral they had for that sack of shit S.W.A.T officer what a joke

[Wanted Man]

What? Can you try communicating in English? You'd be able to comprehend my posts better, and I could read yours. Seriously, try it out sometime.

[AGITprop]

It is important to understand what the police is and why it exists. Workers need employment. Jobs as police officers offer a great deal of benefits. People are attracted to these jobs.

On the other hand. Regardless of the fact that they are workers who need employment, we must understand what exactly the police force is. It is an armed wing of the ruling class to uphold the bourgeois law. The police, being workers, are still our enemies, because more likely than not, many of them will not side with the revolution and those who do should be under very careful scrutiny. The rest just lined up and shot.

We have to make the difference between the law enforcement institution and the people themselves but at the same time remember that these are people who because are in this institution, must not be seen as comrades, regardless of their class.

Not to mention that a a lot of them are corrupt, and abuse their power. Murder, beat citizens and steal as well. And I agree De Baron, we should fight this militantly, when the time is correct, so do us all a favor and grow up.

[Wanted Man]

When the time is correct? I don't think a "correct time" would ever come if the movement listened to cats like you and tucked their tails between their legs at every threat.

[chegitz guevara]

Is the time for revolution now? Well fuck it, what are you doing posting on the internet!?! Get out there and fight some cops! NOW! What, aren't you revolutionary! Scab!

[AGITprop]

Is the time for revolution now? Well fuck it, what are you doing posting on the internet!?! Get out there and fight some cops! NOW! What, aren't you revolutionary! Scab!

LMAO I usually like to post some actual content, but all I have to say is LMAO

[BIG BROTHER]

Cops are in the service of the burgoise and will protect the burgoise interest's

But they also do offer some protection to ordinary people, I mean if someone is trying to enter my house to come and kill me and I called the cops they would indeed try to stop him.

Also a lot of them especially in my homeland also are the ones who rob, side with drugdealers, and kidnap for money.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I have a strong distrust for the police. I don't see how anyone couldn't, frankly. When people are granted the amount of power that they are in our society (or, at least, in American society...I don't know what it's like in Europe and elsewhere), you should always keep a close eye on them.

That said, I don't think that ALL cops are "evil" or "Nazis".

I have a nuanced view about the police in general.

[Dros]

This conversation is generally mising the point: whether or not individual cops are "good" of "bad" or even if cops in general are "good" or "bad" is some ridiculously moralistic/un-materialist sense. The point is, whether they are really really nice great guys or not, police serve a 100% reactionary role in this society. They represent the muscle of the bourgeois dictatorship's state apparatus. You know, that thing we're all trying to get rid of.

[RiverwestPanther]

From our stance there must be general distrust and disassociation from the police. Police espouse and enforce the ideology of the ruling class, regardless of whether this conflicts with their own non professonal interests. Their power trips carry over into their actions often targeting the poor, which in turn, all to often have a racist twinge to them.
Many fellow working class Americans, so brainwashed in their patriotism side with the police, furthering racist attitudes, at least in this country.
How could we support the police? they protect the state and attack the poor, and worst of all further the ideology that support these actions. I understand the need potentially for some domestic control, but thats another issue. so yes indeed, for now, fuck the police.

[Vanguard1917]

This conversation is generally mising the point: whether or not individual cops are "good" of "bad" or even if cops in general are "good" or "bad" is some ridiculously moralistic/un-materialist sense. The point is, whether they are really really nice great guys or not, police serve a 100% reactionary role in this society. They represent the muscle of the bourgeois dictatorship's state apparatus. You know, that thing we're all trying to get rid of.

Well put. We need a materialist perspective.

As an armed force of the bourgeois state, the police is a repressive institution whose powers need to be challenged. Unfortunately, some 'leftists' do the opposite of this and actually call for the police force to play a more 'active role' in our lives.

[Marsella]

Yeah, and ya don't stop...'cause it's 187 on an undercover cop. :p

[Die Neue Zeit]

Cops are neither workers nor petit-bourgeois. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/simplification-class-relations-t73419/index.html)

[Dros]

Cops are neither workers nor petit-bourgeois. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/simplification-class-relations-t73419/index.html)

errr...

yes they are.


This group happens to be that of modern police officers, who merely contribute to the protection of the capitalist state machinery. Also involved in the protection of the capitalist state machinery are lawyers and judges. Performing similar functions for the “epoch of the bourgeoisie” as a whole are security guards and strikebreakers.

That analysis fails to look at how we define class. Lawyers and Judges own property. They are part of the petty-bourgoisie.

Cops are forced to sell their labour power. The fact that they are a.) reactionary and b.) don't "make" anything doesn't mean that they do fit the charecteristics of proletarians. Although some of the higher ranking cops are labour aristocrats.

[Die Neue Zeit]

errr...

Lawyers and Judges own property.

Most lawyers aren't "partners," if law firms are what you're referring to.

Even so, those who are aren't "partners" in the petit-bourgeois sense (in law and auditing, the word "partner" as applied to BIG firms refers to merely managerial bosses).


Cops are forced to sell their labour power. The fact that they are a.) reactionary and b.) don't "make" anything doesn't mean that they do fit the charecteristics of proletarians. Although some of the higher ranking cops are labour aristocrats.

Oh, boy. :(

There is a particular methodology that I used in that chapter. To be a prole or even a bourgeois, you have to contribute to the development of society's labour power and its capabilities. Cops and lawyers have no relationship to the means of production themselves; non-ownership doesn't automatically imply a relationship.




That analysis fails to look at how we define class.

Even Marx implied that his class analysis was based more than just a mere relationship to the means of production (when talking about the lumpenproles)! His analysis was based on production itself!

[chegitz guevara]

The point is, whether they are really really nice great guys or not, police serve a 100% reactionary role in this society.

That is not a dialectical understanding. Very few things in society are 100% one thing or the other. The police play multiple roles in society.

A few years back, a group of nazi skin heads busted in to the A-Zone in Chicago, and started roughing up the sole anarchist who was there. He was able to get free and run out into the street, where a passing police car was able to both rescue him and arrest the thugs. Was that reactionary?

The reality is, cops play both a reactionary role in keeping the people down and a socially necessary role in helping to protect people from crime. The working class is the class that suffers most from crime. When crime happens in oppressed neighborhoods, people want the police to solve the crime and protect them from more crime. None of which negates the role the police play in enforcing the social order.

Does anyone honestly think we'd be better off in capitalist society without police?

What we need is to revolutionize the police, get the police under community control. We need more civilian oversight. We need more integration with the communities they work in.

[Invader Zim]

Fundermentally, one of the mandates of the police is to support the existing government and state; and that includes carring out repressive orders of the reactionary institutions that currently rule us. For that reason, I would consider it imprevative that no leftist consider joining the police; you may well be called upon to do something absolutely awful and you will be a tool of those who actively try to keep you, and everyone else, locked in strict social postions.

However, I disagree with the 'all cops are scum' line, simply because I went to school with a fair few people who are cops; and I know for a fact that these are good people. These guys joined the police for a whole load of reasons; because they wanted to help their community; because they were poor working class lads who have the option of the police force or the dole queue. None of them, not one, is an anti-working class sadist who just wants to beat people up from a position of authority.

I am well aware that the cops are put to tasks which prop up the most vicious aspects of the state and that some are as vile a group of racists and bigots you are likely to encounter, but to generalise them all into one group to be despised is simply ludicrous; such stereotypes provide a false image of individuals and ignore material circumstanses put them into the position that they are in. To quote a good friend of mine, who was rescued by the cops from a beating from a fascist "Normaly I think you guys are ****s, but you're alright."

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I couldn't agree more. A healthy, revolutionary skepticism of cops, like one of security guards, is required, not baseless "ACAB" hate-mongering.

[Marsella]

As much as I hate to quote instead of debating so much, I think that RS2K gives a pretty decent opinion on the role of cops:


These are some rather "harsh" posts, at least in the opinions of some people. I maintain that there is no such thing as a "good cop" under capitalism...much to the dismay of those who have not yet understood the nature of class society.

One can only hope that they will learn better without having a nightstick broken over their skulls.

http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/www.revolutionaryleft.com/images/redstar.html
=========================================

The question ought to be "what kind of security forces" would be useful under communism and what kind would be dangerous or even catastrophic?

"Professionalization" is the hallmark of "security" under capitalism. People make careers out of being cops, military personnel, internal security "experts", etc. The "professional" under capitalism does not concern himself with the social consequences of his daily work; he's just doing his job within whatever constraints might exist at any given moment. He "carries out his orders" no matter what they might be.

So, if he is ordered to apprehend a random sniper on a killing spree, he works as hard as he can to do that. If he is ordered to round up the jews to be executed, he works as hard as he can to do that, too. To him, it's all in a day's work.

This strongly suggests that we communists should advocate and implement the de-professionalization of all state functions involving violence or potential violence against the citizenry. Yes, you can, if you wish, do this kind of work for a few years...but you are not allowed to make a career out of it; you are not allowed to develop any kind of "professional detachment" from the social consequences of your work.

Violence or the threat of violence is dynamite in every social order. We should handle with care.
---------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Che-Lives on November 22, 2002
---------------------------------------------------------------

It bothers me when people say "there are good cops." I don't understand what they mean by "good".

When we had a cop trolling our board a few months ago, I suggested a possible definition of a "good cop"...essentially one who had the eyes of an eagle when it came to tracking down murderers, rapists, etc. but who was blind as a bat when it came to persecuting hookers, junkies, drug dealers, the homeless, demonstrators, etc.

Naturally, I got the predictable response: "we don't make the law, we just enforce it."

Now consider what that really implies: if a cop is ordered to track down a murder, he does it. If he's ordered to beat the shit out of demonstrators, he does it. If he's ordered to round up the Jews for "special treatment" (execution), he DOES IT!

He's a professional who "carries out his orders" no matter what.

I suggest that such an "individual" is beyond good or evil; he has voluntarily surrendered his humanity and become a machine. Machines are not "good" or "bad"; machines either "work" or "don't work." That's all.

No one disputes the tautology that our enemy is the capitalist class. But it is the enemy's machines that directly confront us...it is this thing that looks like a human but acts like a machine that will kill us if it is ordered to do so (and may do that anyway, like any other potentially deadly malfunctioning machine.)

Please do not suggest that I am "dehumanizing" cops. No one makes you take up a career in "law enforcement" (real name: professional killer). They have dehumanized themselves.

Perhaps it will sound "harsh" to many ears...but there's no ethical difference between killing a cop and burning a cop car. They're both tools of our class enemy.
-------------------------------------------------------------
First Posted at Che-Lives on February 23, 2003
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It seems to me that any social role that reduces people to the level of machines is, on its face, unacceptable.

I am quite sure that we will have social roles that fulfill some of the functions that police and judges fulfill under capitalism.

But this quasi-deification of the "Law" as a cover for known injustice cannot be permitted...otherwise, what's the difference between us and the old regime?

We've had some threads on this before and it would do no harm to have a new one...the details of the criminal justice system under socialism and communism are necessarily rather fuzzy at this point.

But any suggestion that all we have to do is run a red flag up outside the courthouse and otherwise proceed as normal is hopelessly naive and would simply re-create the outrages that characterize the present system.

Our goal as revolutionaries is not "Law" but justice. And while I would concede that "perfect justice" may be unattainable, it should be easy to surpass the wretched levels of the present society.
-------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Che-Lives on February 27, 2003
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The "blue culture" of the police is essentially a fascist culture.

What are the "virtues" of the police, the measure of human "merit"?

1. Physical courage.

2. Solidarity even unto death with other police in the face of any external threat.

3. Sadistic brutality towards women, children, and anyone physically weaker or incapable of resistance.

4. Racism.

5. Official Homophobia.

6. Total contempt for all who are not police.

7. Rampant corruption.

8. And most important of all: obedience to authority.

This is the "blue culture" in general. It's not to say that every single cop is a rabid fascist turd...at least not in the beginning. A new cop may be, and most likely is predisposed to be comfortable in this environment...but he still has to learn the details of expected behavior and opinion.

There are always naive people who join the police force to "help people" (stop laughing, I'm serious). Within two or three years they quit...often getting a transfer to the fire department.

It's always difficult to predict how things will "play out" in revolutionary circumstances. Most likely, cops will be a large part of the initial wave of exiles/refugees from any country with a socialist revolution...this was the case with Cuba, for example. The ones that fail to escape immediately will probably be tried for crimes against humanity and, if convicted, executed.

Under no circumstances should an ex-cop be allowed to become involved in "law enforcement" in a post-revolutionary era. That would just be asking for grief.

As to class origins, most police have traditionally been recruited from "upwardly mobile" working class families. In Marxist terms, they are conscious traitors to the working class.

It's interesting to note that when Hitler took power in Germany, fully one-third of the Berlin Police Department was fired/retired. That means, of course, that two-thirds of that city's cops had no problems with Nazism at all.

It's probably even worse in America now.
--------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Che-Lives on April 19, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------


quote:
Only a complete fool would say that [the police] are just a tool of the bourgeoisie.
What else would they be in a bourgeois society?

We're not talking about "police" in the abstract but police as they exist, here and now, in capitalist society.

What "police" would be like under communism is a different topic.

As to Iraq, I think it's quite revealing that the ex-cops under the infamous Hussein are eager to serve the new colonial rulers...they know better than you, how little things are going to change.



Does anyone honestly think we'd be better off in capitalist society without police?

Absolutely. In fact, it was one of the features of the Paris Commune; the abolishment of the police in place with the armed militia of the working class.

The existence of a police force in a 'communist' society would be an intolerable one.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Except that the Paris Commune was anything BUT a proletocracy ("dictatorship of the proletariat"). :p

The majority of Communards were petit-bourgeois, and most of what they did were fairly modest.

Now, what about the "sword and shield of the revolution," the extraordinary, political "secret police" that WILL be necessary under proletocracy?

[Invader Zim]

Not that it was especially abnormal, but on that occassion RS2K as talking a load of nonsense. His comparison between the authorities in the Nazi regime and modern police forces is simply bullshit, because the idea that all cops under the Nazi regime knowingly participated in the holocaust is bullshit.

My advice to you Marsella is not simply to blindly agree with what some guy off the internet has to say.



The existence of a police force in a 'communist' society would be an intolerable one.You think that crime would simply vanish under communism? Are you really that naive? No wonder you agree with RS2K. the guy had a lot of interesting and relevent stuff to say on a number of issues, this isn't one of them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ That is expected of practical Mensheviks like her and RS2K, who talk the talk but who aren't willing to get their hands dirty for workers (or at least make hard theoretical contributions).

[PRC-UTE corrected me on my overusage of the words "spontaneist" and "sponty." Marsella, my apologies for calling you "sponty."]

[Marsella]

^^^ Except that the Paris Commune was anything BUT a proletocracy ("dictatorship of the proletariat"). :p

“Look at the Paris Commune — that was the dictatorship of the proletariat” - Engels.


The majority of Communards were petit-bourgeois, and most of what they did were fairly modest.

You consider abolishing the army, the police modest? Setting up factory committes modest? Allowing for the direct recall of worker delegates modest?

Your opponents certainly disagree; they slaughtered 50,000 who supported such 'modest' opinions.


Now, what about the "sword and shield of the revolution," the extraordinary, political "secret police" that WILL be necessary under proletocracy?

Only useless fucks like yourself seem to think that they would be necessary.

What role does such a secret police have (apart from your Red Alert fantasies)?


His comparison between the authorities in the Nazi regime and modern police forces is simply bullshit, because the idea that all cops under the Nazi regime knowingly participated in the holocaust is bullshit.

Well I agree with what you said.

But point to where RS2K said that pigs supported the holocaust?

You seem to be making things up.


My advice to you Marsella is not simply to blindly agree with what some guy off the internet has to say.

Thanks for the advice, but I would return it.


You think that crime would simply vanish under communism?

Once again, you make things up.

Crime will not disappear, although the social circumstances which cause it will be eliminated over time.

But what crime will exist can be combated by the working class themselves.


Are you really that naive?

Are you really so naive to think that pigs will support workers?

You clearly have not been on a strike or a lock out.

[Marsella]

^^^ That is expected of practical Mensheviks like her and RS2K, who talk the talk but who aren't willing to get their hands dirty for workers (or at least make hard theoretical contributions).

Says an office worker! :lol:

I have been involved in union organising for the past 3 years, involved in strikes where it was nothing but dirty.

So fuck off with your useless 'hard theoretical contributions.'

They fall on deaf ears amongst working class people.

[Dros]

I just wrote a lengthy response to Jacob and Chegitz but then I deleted it accidently.

I will repost once I am done beating the shit out of something.:cursing::cursing::cursing:

[Invader Zim]

But point to where RS2K said that pigs supported the holocaust? Certainly: -

"If he's ordered to round up the Jews for "special treatment" (execution), he DOES IT!"

If that is not a clear attempt to link the police force under Nazi Germany with current police forces, I don't know what is.


You seem to be making things up.LOL, you accuse me of lying? Well if we are going to indulge in stupid, spurious allegations, I accuse you of being illiterate.



If that is not a clear attempt to ink the police force under Nazi Germany with current police forces, I don't know what is.How is that making anything up? I asked you a question, and based on your position, a rather important one.:D


But what crime will exist can be combated by the working class themselves.Without tasking specific individuals, whose job within society is to investigate and combat criminal activity (i.e. a police force), how do you propose the working class accomplishes that? For someone who professes to be indesposed to speech making, that is a lot of rhetoric but very little substance.


Are you really so naive to think that pigs will support workers?I know for a fact that in the past, they have; as Spartan has already poined out.


You clearly have not been on a strike or a lock out.What a total irrelvence. But, you are quite right, I haven't; as a manual labourer working for a small museum in an area of high unemployment I was easily replacable (something I doubt you know much about or have had to deal with). I was however standing out side the fire stations with the fire fighters who were striking for greater pay. But all that is aside from the point, a red herring. What is salient is that I know a number of cops, and know for a fact that you are talking utter bullshit. You make ludicrous stereotypes, and attempt to substanciate them with yet more stereotypes. Then when criticised you bring up utterly irrelevent and condesending nonsense (characterised by a ludicrous holier than thou attitude) in an attempt to dismiss my argument without actually addressing it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

“Look at the Paris Commune — that was the dictatorship of the proletariat” - Engels.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_02_22.htm


Moreover the embarrassments of a government which has suddenly come into being through a people's victory have nothing specifically "socialist" about them. On the contrary. The victorious bourgeois politicians at once feel themselves embarrassed by their "victory" while the socialist can at least take action without any embarrassment. One thing you can at any rate be sure of: a socialist government does not come into power in a country unless conditions are so developed that it can above all take the necessary measures for intimidating the mass of the bourgeoisie sufficiently to gain time--the first desideratum [requisite]--for lasting action.

Perhaps you will point to the Paris Commune; but apart from the fact that this was merely the rising of a town under exceptional conditions, the majority of the Commune was in no sense socialist, nor could it be. With a small amount of sound common sense, however, they could have reached a compromise with Versailles useful to the whole mass of the people -- the only thing that could be reached at the time. The appropriation of the Bank of France alone would have been enough to dissolve all the pretensions of the Versailles people in terror, etc., etc.

The general demands of the French bourgeoisie laid down before 1789 were roughly just the same, mutatis mutandis [with corresponding alterations] as the first immediate demands of the proletariat are pretty uniformly to-day in all countries with capitalist production.

Now:


What role does such a secret police have (apart from your Red Alert fantasies)?

So, out of the dialectical blue, Lenin had a Red Alert fantasy that led him to create the Cheka? :laugh:



I won't address your narrow-minded definition of "worker," obviously the byproduct of reductionist traditional schematism which does NOT take into account the development of capitalism.


They fall on deaf ears amongst working class people.

So says a practical Menshevik...




I will repost once I am done beating the shit out of something. :cursing::cursing::cursing:

Take your time. ;)

[Marsella]

And you seem incapable of reading: -

"If he's ordered to round up the Jews for "special treatment" (execution), he DOES IT!"

Right I thought you were referring to this part:


It's interesting to note that when Hitler took power in Germany, fully one-third of the Berlin Police Department was fired/retired. That means, of course, that two-thirds of that city's cops had no problems with Nazism at all.

My apologies. But what role did they play in the Holocaust?

And besides, they certainly have a role in attacking minorities today. So the point largely still stands.


Without tasking specific individuals, whose job within society is to combat criminal activity (i.e. a police force), how do you propose the working class accomplishes that?

By arming themselves and making sure they themselves play the central role in policing society?

Or is that too much to ask?


What a total irrelvence. But, you are quite right, I haven't; as a manual labourer working for a small museum in an area of high unemployment I was easily replacable (something I doubt you know much about or have had to deal with). I was however standing out side the fire stations with the fire fighters who were striking for greater pay. But all that is aside from the point, an utter irrelevence. What is salient is that I know a number of cops, and know for a fact that you are talking utter bullshit. You make ludicrous stereotypes, and attempt to substanciate them with yet more stereotypes. Then when criticised you bring up utterly irrelevent and condesending nonsense in an attempt to dismiss my argument without actually addressing it.

Wow, you know a number of nice cops. Do you want a medal?

Being nice has nothing to do with it.

Cops are taught to follow orders. They can be as nice as they like, but an order is an order, and if they refuse to take that order then its bye bye job.

And yeah, fire-fighters are quite different from pigs. For one they don't suppress strikers. Don't let that get in the way of your 'argument' though.



Perhaps you will point to the Paris Commune; but apart from the fact that this was merely the rising of a town under exceptional conditions, the majority of the Commune was in no sense socialist, nor could it be. With a small amount of sound common sense, however, they could have reached a compromise with Versailles useful to the whole mass of the people -- the only thing that could be reached at the time. The appropriation of the Bank of France alone would have been enough to dissolve all the pretensions of the Versailles people in terror, etc., etc.

Yes, and once more you completley distort the context.

The very best the Paris Commune could ever have hoped to achieve was a compromise - and that could only have been reached if they had taken the Bank of France.

As for the model of Paris Commune, Marx endorsed it as the dictatorship of the proletariat. So your post is devoid of anything useful.


So, out of the dialectical blue, Lenin had a Red Alert fantasy that led him to create the Cheka?

Its purpose ended up being one of supressing dissident communists and dissident workers.

Again, if you want to argue for a secret police you have no place with any communist organisation.


I won't address your narrow-minded definition of "worker," obviously the byproduct of reductionist traditional schematism which does NOT take into account the development of capitalism.

I wasn't taught gibberish in high school so unfortunately I cannot reply.


So says a practical Menshevik...

Nice political slur (whatever it means).

[Invader Zim]

But what role did they play in the Holocaust?I haven't the inclination (not after being accused of lying and the rest of your condescending bullshit) to engage in the lengthy task of addressing the obvious failings of your history teachers. But, I would start by suggest that you read one of, no doubt, hundreds of books written on the subject of civilian participation in the Nazi regime, you could start with Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners and his numerous critics.


And besides, they certainly have a role in attacking minorities today. So do elements of the working class. For example on the 27th of April 1968 4,500 Dock workers went on strike in protest to Enoch Powell's sacking following the 'Rivers of Blood' speech. So no unless you want to extend your stereotype across the board, your latest stereotype of those in the police doesn't 'still stand'.


By arming themselves and making sure they themselves play the central role in policing society?Ah, so armed vigilante group hunting down a murder are going, through worship of Marx, to be gifted with an extensive knowledge of the forensic science, criminology, etc, and, are going to have months, if not years, of time to place into such investigations at the expense of their other roles within society, are they? I see.

Have you noticed that even Redstar accepted that some sort of police force would be necessary under a communist society? To quote the man himself: -

"We're not talking about "police" in the abstract but police as they exist, here and now, in capitalist society.

What "police" would be like under communism is a different topic."


Or is that too much to ask?Quite frankly, yes it is. You or I could arm ourselves to the teeth and patrol the streets hunting for a criminal until we expire from old age. Where as a professional police organisation of some form, could dedicate trained experts to apprehending these dangerous criminals around the clock. They would be much better at it.


Wow, you know a number of nice cops. Do you want a medal?

Being nice has nothing to do with it.

Cops are taught to follow orders. They can be as nice as they like, but an order is an order, and if they refuse to take that order then its bye bye job.So, what of obvious cases where the cops haven't obeyed orders and have sided with workers? Where do they fit into your two dimensional stereotype?

Your argument is fucking crap.

[Marsella]

Ah, so armed vigilante group hunting down a murder are going, through worship of Marx, to be gifted with an extensive knowledge of the forensic science, criminology, etc, and, are going to have months, if not years, of time to place into such investigations at the expense of their other roles within society, are they? I see.

A criminologist is not a police officer, nor is a forensic scientist.

They would continue to be vital in solving crime.

But as for people protecting personal property or preventing assaults, that would be the job of working people, yes.


Quite frankly, yes it is. You or I could arm ourselves to the teeth and patrol the streets hunting for a criminal until we expire from old age. Where as a professional police organisation of some form, could dedicate trained experts to apprehending these dangerous criminals around the clock. They would be much better at it.

Well firstly, no one is arguing for some sort of vigilante justice.

But your model is no different to the current system, and hence would come with all the problems associated with it.

The great majority of crime has nothing to do with murder or serious crimes anyway. It mainly pertains to traffic offences, drugs, stealing property etc.

Having some sort of authority which encompasses the communities role in solving such problems does much more for justice than having a bunch of cops chasing 'bad guys.'

They may well be just as effective.

You seem to have a grandeur ideal of the role of police officers. They are esteemed fine collectors for the most part.


So, what of obvious cases where the cops haven't obeyed orders and have sided with workers? Where do they fit into your two dimensional stereotype?

Its called the rare category.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Ah, so armed vigilante group hunting down a murder are going, through worship of Marx, to be gifted with an extensive knowledge of the forensic science, criminology, etc, and, are going to have months, if not years, of time to place into such investigations at the expense of their other roles within society, are they? I see.

Have you noticed that even Redstar accepted that some sort of police force would be necessary under a communist society? To quote the man himself: -

"We're not talking about "police" in the abstract but police as they exist, here and now, in capitalist society.

...

You or I could arm ourselves to the teeth and patrol the streets hunting for a criminal until we expire from old age. Where as a professional police organisation of some form, could dedicate trained experts to apprehending these dangerous criminals around the clock. They would be much better at it.

So, what of obvious cases where the cops haven't obeyed orders and have sided with workers? Where do they fit into your two dimensional stereotype?

Your argument is fucking crap.

Game. Set. Match.




I wasn't taught gibberish in high school so unfortunately I cannot reply.

Guess what, Menshie? To ordinary workers, the word "dictatorship," if taken to mean something else other than tyranny, is gibberish! :p


Its purpose ended up being one of suppressing dissident communists and dissident workers.

Again, if you want to argue for a secret police you have no place with any communist organisation.

Under Stalin. :p

Under Lenin, it was a fine instrument to suppress counterrevolutionary elements nonetheless. :)

As for your NAIVE last remark, go tell that to Lenin's corpse. :p

[spartan]

But your model is no different to the current system, and hence would come with all the problems associated with it.

I dont think so.

The major difference between a Police force in a Capitalist society and a Police force in a Communist society is that the Police force in the Communist society would be under the control of the Proletariat and will thus serve our intrests, as oppossed to serving the Bourgeois's intrests like they do in a Capitalist society.

Economic crime will all but dissappear in a Communist society (No money, whilst everyone has equal access to everything negating the need to steal personal possesions) but we cant stop the Ted Bundy's out there, so a dedicated Police force (Who will have the time to dedicate themselves to their job fully unlike workers who already have a job) would still be necessary to catch these sorts of people (Whether you like it or not).

[Marsella]

oops

[Marsella]

I dont think so.

The major difference between a Police force in a Capitalist society and a Police force in a Communist society is that the Police force in the Communist society would be under the control of the Proletariat and will thus serve our intrests, as oppossed to serving the Bourgeois's intrests like they do in a Capitalist society.

God no.

The working class cannot just take hold of the ready-mate bourgeoisie state machinery. They must 'smash it.'

What some do not understand is that such institutions have a purpose in and of themselves. And unless they are removed they will continue to exist. They have no purpose in 'withering' away.


Economic crime will all but dissappear in a Communist society (No money, whilst everyone has equal access to everything negating the need to steal personal possesions) but we cant stop the Ted Bundy's out there, so a dedicated Police force (Who will have the time to dedicate themselves to their job fully unlike workers who already have a job) would still be necessary to catch these sorts of people (Whether you like it or not).

No idea who Ted Bundy is, but I will assume he is sort sort of psycho murderer.

Such people have always existed and will always exist.

It seems a poor excuse to justify a police force to try and catch what is an inevitability, and an extremely rare one at that.


Game. Set. Match.

Do you have anything relevant to add?


Guess what, Menshie? To ordinary workers, the word "dictatorship," if taken to mean something else other than tyranny, is gibberish! :p

I guess not.

Besides, I don't use such jargon with workers when there are more appropriate words.

[Invader Zim]

A criminologist is not a police officer, nor is a forensic scientist.What rubbish. Of course criminologists and forensic scientist's are employed by the police forces, and cops are them selves trained in methods of tracking down criminals. Prevention is one aspect of the policing, but so is apprehension. Indeed, the emphasis on quality training has now led to entire degree schemes in policing being put in place. To claim that random citizens with other full time professions and no training could operate a police system in as an effective manner a professional full time dedicated police force is manifestly false.



But as for people protecting personal property or preventing assaults, that would be the job of working people, yes.Clearly the best preventative measure when it comes to crime is to make criminality pointless and extremely risky. So no doubt, better community organisation against criminals is a necessary measure. However, should a crime be committed, then the task of apprehending the criminals clearly needs to be passed into the hands of a full time, trianed professional body of some form.


no one is arguing for some sort of vigilante justice.Well I am sorry to say that is the logical extension of your argument.


But your model is no different to the current system,That is because, system of trained police officials is the only coherant method of dealing with crime. But you are wrong, 'my model' is very different from the current system, as those who give the 'orders' in my system are not capitalist politicians and civil servents attempting to maintain the status quo.


The great majority of crime has nothing to do with murder or serious crimes anyway.Indeed it doesn't, but that doesn't stop it being necessary to have an organisation in place to deal with such forms of criminality. You also bring up traffic laws, they incidentally would also need to be enforced and have people engaged round the clock maintained with an active presense in order to prevent criminaly negligent activity on the roads. Anyone who disagrees that traffic law needs to be enforced is either an idiot with a death wish or hasn't ever driven a car. Incidentally, just as the polcie train a number of their officers in criminology and employ those with degrees in criminology and forensic science, they also train individuals to patrol the roads safely.



They may well be just as effective.Or more considerably more likely, they will be highly ineffectual as they lack the training, support, materials and round the clock dedicated members to be in any way effective.




You seem to have a grandeur ideal of the role of police officers. They are esteemed fine collectors for the most part.And you seem to have some utopian view, which is utterly detatched from realities of the situation.

You also confuse the inherent problems with the current leadership of the police forces of capitalist society with an inherent problem of police force in general. As noted earlier, even Redstar, who takes a broadly similar line to you, didn't hold that position. Nor was he naive enough to deny that some form of dedicated goup was and is necessary to combat crime in a post communist society. That is a view that you, seemingly alone, hold.


Its called the rare category.Well so you claim, but I have yet to see you offer up any evidence to support that position.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Besides, I don't use such jargon with workers when there are more appropriate words.

What: economistic words like "workers' rights"? :rolleyes:

[It's no different from the economistic-sounding "Revolutionary Workerism" of RS2K and "Proletarism" of Razlatzki.]

BTW, I did add something regarding "secret" police organizations' extreme effectiveness at combating counterrevolution and sabotage. :)

[Marsella]

What: economistic words like "workers' rights"? :rolleyes:

No I prefer communism fuckwit.


[It's no different from the economistic-sounding "Revolutionary Workerism" of RS2K and "Proletarism" of Razlatzki.]

or proletocracy.


BTW, I did add something regarding "secret" police organizations' extreme effectiveness at combating counterrevolution and sabotage.

In other words, you would side with pigs to silence communists.

Besides, as if a revolution could be 'sabotaged' by a small group. You idiots talk about purging and support of such groups yet you wouldn't have the guts to do it yourselves.:glare:

I'll reply tomorrow Zim, I'm too tired now.

[Black Dagger]

because they were poor working class lads who have the option of the police force or the dole queue

For real?

Thats sound like a gross-exaggeration designed to invoke sympathy.

[Holden Caulfield]

well im with chegitz_guevara, (and not just because he is a trot too) coz overall he has the most realistic view on this subject, without having to pull in other peoples ideas and without over complecating the debate,

a mon avis...

[Die Neue Zeit]

No I prefer communism fuckwit.

Is the term "communist" beyond saving (at the moment)? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/term-communist-beyond-t71765/index.html)


or proletocracy

Rule by the working class (which goes beyond mere workers' rights), Menshie :p


In other words, you would side with pigs to silence communists.

I question your non-anarchist communist leanings, given your baseless "fuck Lenin" remarks. :p


Besides, as if a revolution could be 'sabotaged' by a small group. You idiots talk about purging and support of such groups yet you wouldn't have the guts to do it yourselves. :glare:

Whatever. :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

For real?

Thats sound like a gross-exaggeration designed to invoke sympathy.

Perhaps it is an exaggeration to an extent, I am sure that MacDonald's or Tesco's would have employed them.:rolleyes: But yeah, one of the guys I know had been through several shitty jobs and had been on the dole a few times before joining the poice.

If anyone thinks that the attraction of £30 grand a year doesn't hold some attraction to people who are forced to live of half that, are not living in on the same planet. Also consider the fact that the police get paid better than the vast majority of jobs which requite that level of education (4 GCSE's), and more than a fair few other jobs which even require higher education, i.e. teachers. Police recruitment posters also don't have pictures of cops smashing the teath from the jaws of black people. They show pictures of cops helping children, old people, etc and tell people that they can make a difference and help people. So from the perspective of some of these people they see the police as an opportunity for good money, a pension, the prospect of future employability and sense of worth to the community. If you were a young person with few prospects, don't you think you would find that package rather appealing? Quite frankly I'm not supprised more people I know didn't join the police.

It is the exact same thing when it comes to the armed forces, and i know a few people who have joined them as well; members of my family for one.

[spartan]

For real?

Thats sound like a gross-exaggeration designed to invoke sympathy.

Actually it isnt.

Wales is fucked up for getting decent paying jobs right now, so many working class people see joining the Police as a better alternative to going on the doll (For obvious reasons).

Zim also forgot to add the army which many people choose as a potential last ditch career.

[Marsella]

Rule by the working class (which goes beyond mere workers' rights), Menshie :p

Show me where I have linked communism to a struggle for workers rights.

Otherwise its a baseless assertion as usual.

And you might think its 'funny' to label me Menshie, it just comes across as annoying and arrogant, as well as simply a political slur.


I question your non-anarchist communist leanings, given your baseless "fuck Lenin" remarks. :p

I challenge you to find once, where I have ignored debate in favour of 'fuck Lenin' remarks.

In fact, I have not said it once on this site (having done a search through all my posts).

Once again, baseless assertions.


Whatever. :rolleyes:

Your cowardice is showing. Are you afraid to get your hands dirty? Or are you going to leave it to pigs to do your dirty work - which - let's face it - is the only reason you support them.

Those who haven't faced war, or political persecution, can talk all they like about imaginary purges. It doesn't lend them any credibility in my eyes.

[Invader Zim]

Are you afraid to get your hands dirty? Or are you going to leave it to pigs to do your dirty work - which - let's face it - is the only reason you support them.In some ways you are quite right, but not in the way you are thinking. Personally I have absolutely no inclination to go out, without any training, experience or real idea of what I am doing, attempting to protect my community from rapists, thieves and murderers. I wouldn't know where to begin. Just as I wouldn't know where to begin with a school room of kids; which is the exact same reason a communist society must also employ and organised body of teachers, fire fighters, paramedics, doctors, electricians, etc.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ You're talking to an anti-"vanguardist" who doesn't acknowledge the NECESSITY of "job specialization" (to at least some extent) so long as the capitalist mode of production exists.

Just as there would be anti-crime professional grunts and more valiant "sword and shield" folks (fighting counterrevolution and sabotage), there would be beforehand a VANGUARD of the working class organized as a social-proletocratic PARTY.

[Invader Zim]

I don't criticise Marsella for being "anti-vanguardist", I agree with her on that point; I don't see why or how a revolution, which is by its very nature a spontanious reaction to existing conditions, needs that kind of leadership. But that is a different debate.

[Die Neue Zeit]

That is a different debate, but the "dialectical" connection linking the two of them to a greater "totality" is the existence of job specialization during the capitalist mode of production (specialization of class consciousness).

[victim77]

do you see the police force as a opressive force in the pay of the bourgosie and direct opressors of the people,

or as people whos jobs is to protects people, and who sadly often get used in this way but are just as much victims of the society we live in as any other worker,

opinions, i think the second but i have the feeling that a fair few will disagree with me, my opinion is not concrete on this, sway me baby

We'll in my opinion most crimes are the cause of capitalism with the exeption of Murder, hate crimes etc. If we lived in a socialist land then people would not need to steal (sp?), sell drugs or prostite them selves. Therefore the cops are a tool of the bourgosie to protect them and they're property from the poor. I don't hate the cop himself but I hate his/her occupation.

[chegitz guevara]

I just wrote a lengthy response to Jacob and Chegitz but then I deleted it accidently.

I will repost once I am done beating the shit out of something.:cursing::cursing::cursing:

That sux. Looking forward to your response.

[chegitz guevara]

Absolutely. In fact, it was one of the features of the Paris Commune; the abolishment of the police in place with the armed militia of the working class.

The existence of a police force in a 'communist' society would be an intolerable one.

Who will solve the murders, rapes, abductions, etc., that will continue to occur? Just because we build a healthier society doesn't mean that there won't still be people with serious emotional control problems. And there will still be sickos. We are always going to need a professional body that has the training to deal with these sorts of crime.

But the question I asked was about capitalist society, i.e., the society within which we live today. Do you seriously believe that if the police just disappeared, we'd all be better off? Have you ever lived in a part of America where the rule of law has broken down?

Frankly, most of the folks who are the most anti-police tend to come from white, middle class suburbs, where they've never had to deal with bullets coming through their houses on a regular basis. I lived in some of the worst neighborhoods in Chicago for the better part of a decade. At first I was all like, "fuck du PO-lees!"

The first place we lived there were three arsons (including a bombing) soon after we moved in, including in an abandoned car next to our wooden building. Then this kid showed us his gun he used to shoot at "the niggers." We moved. The first night after we moved, there was a huge commotion outside. There was a police cordon and firetrucks all over the place. While the police were next door investigating the rape of a 12 year old girl, they discovered smoke coming up from the basement. When the fire was put out, they discovered the bodies of an elderly couple that had been murdered.

We moved again. Then there was a murder in our alley. Then our roommate got mugged on the doorstep. Then someone got murdered across the street. We moved again. This time, not so much immediate crime, but at night, it sounded like a war zone, constant gun fire. And frequent arson.

We rarely saw any police in those neighborhoods. That is not a way for human beings to live. I married in to an extended Black family that has lived their whole lives in pretty bad neighborhoods. Guess what I learned. People in poor neighborhoods want better policing, not no policing. You have to approach the question from actually lived lives of real human beings, not abstract ideas in your head about the police being 100% reactionary.

[Faux Real]

Under capitalist society the police honestly don't give a shit about crime in urban slums. In fact, it's beneficial to the police that petty rivalries like Crips v Bloodz/Surenos v Nortenos erupt.

This is the case because it means less work for the police, whose only function in capitalist society is to protect and serve those with capital, those with property, and those in the state. Any other service is secondary, and protecting the poor and alienated is last on their 'to-do' list. With these manufactured divisions keeping the oppressed at each others throats, there aren't any chances of coalescence for the masses to focus their attention on the system that confines them.

The police don't care about your safety if you're in an already downtrodden neighborhood. To think otherwise is just outright naivety.

[Ferryman 5]

Under capitalist society the police honestly don't give a shit about crime in urban slums. In fact, it's beneficial to the police that petty rivalries like Crips v Bloodz/Surenos v Nortenos erupt.

This is the case because it means less work for the police, whose only function in capitalist society is to protect and serve those with capital, those with property, and those in the state. Any other service is secondary, and protecting the poor and alienated is last on their 'to-do' list. With these manufactured divisions keeping the oppressed at each others throats, there aren't any chances of coalescence for the masses to focus their attention on the system that confines them.

The police don't care about your safety if you're in an already downtrodden neighborhood. To think otherwise is just outright naivety.

Well said comrade. Their collapse will be our foundation.

[chegitz guevara]

There are places in the world with no police and no state. If you're so hot for such a life, I highly recommend you move to Somalia or Haiti.

[crimsonzephyr]

I am sure that not all police are "bad" but everyone should watch democracy now. Its a documentary. The cops in that are beating on people sitting on the ground not disrupting anything. It is completely wrong but you need to look at it from their perspective- if you were told to beat on the innocent people would you? If you didn't you would defiantly lose your job. and what if that job as a cop was the only source of income you had to support your family- you couldn't lose your job or else your family would pay the consequence's.

[Ferryman 5]

All this verbal twating about is very silly. If you understand that you are involved in the class struglre for power as evereyone is, then you know what to do, or not.

[Raisa]

cops are usually motherfuckers who cant get a better job fast enough so they become cops cause of the benifits and job security and adventure. Some want to use violence and some really want to help the people.but most are the first.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

cops are usually motherfuckersMost people are motherfuckers. Hell, by contemporary standards I'm a motherfucker.


but most are the first.
I believe most police officers enter the field with good/mutual intentions, but over time the warped sense of power gets to a lot of their heads - just like politicians, bosses, and other figures of authority.

I don't find anything necessarily unhealthy about a segment of the population trying to help citizens with matters relating to crime, but I think police should be held much more responsible to their constituency than they are in major cities.

[chegitz guevara]

All this verbal twating about is very silly. If you understand that you are involved in the class struglre for power as evereyone is, then you know what to do, or not.
Apparently not.

[chegitz guevara]

cops are usually motherfuckers who cant get a better job fast enough so they become cops cause of the benifits and job security and adventure. Some want to use violence and some really want to help the people.but most are the first.


I believe most police officers enter the field with good/mutual intentions, but over time the warped sense of power gets to a lot of their heads - just like politicians, bosses, and other figures of authority.


Both of these posts completely miss the point. It's not about what kind of people individual cops may or may not be. It's not about whether cops need to beat up some punk kids to keep their jobs. It's about the social roles the police play in society, which is of a multi-faceted nature!

The police are both a reactionary and a necessary force. They protect the social order and the ruling class from the proletariat but they also protect the proletariat from the lumpen proletariat and even, occasionally, from the ruling class when the crimes bosses commit go too far over the line. The police maintain the status quo, but they also protect us from the most predatory elements of human society. We may agree that a sick society creates sick people, but just because society creates monsters doesn't mean that it doesn't need protection from them.

[cyu]

The police, NSA, FBI, CIA, etc are agents of the government. The more the government is controlled by the wealthy few, the more repressive agents they will be - just as laws will tend to be more oppressive if only the wealthy have a hand in writing them. The more the government is controlled by the many, rather than the few, the less repressive they tend to be.

[Holden Caulfield]

i do not understand the Amerikkan police system can't citizens 'elect' the Sherrif or whatever, or have i seen too many cowboy films, and how do the agencies (NSA CIA etc) interact?

[cyu]

Sure, elections happen. But elections are dominated by compaign contributions from wealthy donors and the amount of money you need to pay to the owners of media to get your message out... not to mention the media themselves are owned and controlled by the wealthy. So the system is already stacked in favor of the wealthy, who are usually using their existing power to further consolidate their power.

[Holden Caulfield]

yeah i understand how fucked 'western democracy' is i was just wondering,

cheers for saying though

[Black Cross]

do you see the police force as a opressive force in the pay of the bourgosie and direct opressors of the people,

or as people whos jobs is to protects people, and who sadly often get used in this way but are just as much victims of the society we live in as any other worker,

opinions, i think the second but i have the feeling that a fair few will disagree with me, my opinion is not concrete on this, sway me baby

Just by taking an objective stance toward this, you can obviously see that all cops aren't bad guys (at least they don't try to be). They are just a tool for oppression. I know a lot of cops (cos i'm a criminal justice student) who really think they are helping and protecting people. I think that's the way it is for the majority of cops. On the other hand, I am opposed to the police as an institution in an inequal society since only the interests of one class can be served fully.

[Reuben]

cops are usually motherfuckers who cant get a better job


So you judge people on the basis of what status they are able to get. Once again, I am left wondering what the fuck raisa is doing on revleft.

[StrictlyRuddie]

Basically I think that as a people together we can defend our selves, we don't need racist, oppressive pigs running our streets, we need to run our own streets.

[chegitz guevara]

How's that working out for you?

[F9]

you cant stand your oppinion in that you dont have the need of police.Yes you maybe can defend yourself but what about childrens,weak man and womans?Ofcourse i dont want police either but i dont stand just because i dont need it!

Fuserg9:star:

[Black Cross]

Basically I think that as a people together we can defend our selves, we don't need racist, oppressive pigs running our streets, we need to run our own streets.

That could work, in theory. But i don't see any need to ablolish police. As long as they serve the well-being of the community and not an oppressive ruling class

[Ferryman 5]

If you are proletarians and not prepared to become the police in a workers state, then what do you expect? You are the police! You are the state! and make dam sure you are by revolution.

[Kropotesta]

It's only when we're serious and start to make fuss
That the politicians show their real face.
It's the copper and the squaddy who were once one of us,
Now trained to do the dirty work and know their place.
If they won't listen either, what can we do?
They're people. Yes. But only people oppress.
If we can go round them, we'll have to go through.
If it rains and there's no shelter we must work in the mess.

They say they're only trying to uphold the law
And if they were off duty we could talk some more
O.K., they're individuals but when they're in a mob,
They're under orders, it's a dirty job.
The plods are taught to go for your neck
Or bust your nose running their gauntlet.
P.C. Punishment on the spot,
Take the law into their own hands and fuck us a lot.

-Crass

however I wouldn't wanna get rid of the police particulary in the society we have now, y'know?

[QuestForLiberty]

I live in the Chicago suburbs and the pigs here generally mean well. Its simply ridiculous to say that all cops are corrupt. the goal of law enforcement it to keep us safe. i am in no way pro-cops, but it is impossible to deny that the ones who catch the murders and rapists and all the other bad guys are entirely evil.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

The police necessarily form an appendage of the state.

Whether they are 'good' or 'nice' people is really about as relevant as whether capitalists are 'good' or 'nice' people.

They represent a barrier to the emancipation of workers and hence will probably form a defence of the old class society.

I also think that it would be probable that the nature of the "police force" will change considerably in the post-capitalist world; at the very least far more accountable to citizens and not play a role in oppressing the working class or revenue collecting but actually 'fighting crime.'

[RNK]

I'll bet you $5, if you stuck one of your so-called "good cops" into a squad of riot police, gave him a baton and some pepperspray and a plexiglass shield, he'd be just as likely as any of them to crack a skull or burn out the retinas of a little child.