Milwaukee just can't control itself

[bcbm]

On the anniversary of last year's attack on the army recruiting center, looks like somebody decided it needed another makeover:

http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209413.shtml

Follow the link for pictures and a lulzy argument. :drool:

There are some events going on tonight, I'll update if anything interesting happens.

[KC]

I'm sure you're going to expect me to say a bunch of crap against this. Really, though, I don't care anymore. I don't think it will have any implications on a larger scale but view it in a positive (albeit rather unproductive) way. I wouldn't do something like this, but kudos to whoever did (minus any delusions of grandeur).

Are you going to that street party tonight? I can't make it; let me know how it turns out if you do.

[Wanted Man]

I denounce this lumpenprole punk and this individual terrorist action! The police would not be entirely blameless if they reacted badly to this unconstructive hooligan!

But I'm still your comrade, please don't insult me! :(

[KC]

It wasn't a "terrorist action". It was just some vandalism. Stop taking it so seriously.

[Ferryman 5]

I denounce this lumpenprole punk and this individual terrorist action! The police would not be entirely blameless if they reacted badly to this unconstructive hooligan!

But I'm still your comrade, please don't insult me! :(

I've shared prison wings with pompous self-righteous scab/nark mentality like this. Whatch your backs!

[bcbm]

Are you going to that street party tonight? I can't make it; let me know how it turns out if you do.

Nah, I'm under lock and key and have been for several days. Not to worry, I'm only lab ratting it up for a few grand before I go to Europe.

[Wanted Man]

Wow, I really shouldn't make sarcastic posts on RevLeft anymore.

I was, of course, referring to this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-police-brutality-t73409/index.html), where some trotskyites argued along this line.

[Ferryman 5]

Wow, I really shouldn't make sarcastic posts on RevLeft anymore.

I was, of course, referring to this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-police-brutality-t73409/index.html), where some trotskyites argued along this line.

I am not posting a correction yet because I don't know if you are taking the piss or not. OK?

[Comrade Rage]

Yeah, I heard about this on the radio yesterday. The recruiting center is still closed, and it'll probably stay that way until mid-next-week.:)

Props to the people who did this!:):)

[YSR]

Vandals! Scum! Lumpens! etc!

[Ferryman 5]

The comrades said:

5yrs Too many
EXPECT RESISTANCE
WAR IS OFFENSIVE!

From this range and without more information we have no way of knowing why you said what you said.

I for one, agree with all of your slogans and think you should concentrate on developing even more sharp slogans rather than responding to criticisms from prats about why you did it.

The content of the message is always far more important than the form, I say.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Loser, shoulda burnt down a church!

[bcbm]

Loser, shoulda burnt down a church!

What me? I was a hundred miles away when this happened, surry. Just saw it on indymedia.

[Ferryman 5]

Loser, shoulda burnt down a church!

Big mouth, small brain. It's nice to be stupid and young.

"You can burn down my churches but I will be free."

[Entrails Konfetti]

What me? I was a hundred miles away when this happened, surry. Just saw it on indymedia.

Not you. I was kidding.

Both are ineffective actions when devoid of class content.

However, this person or these people felt neccessary to express themselve(s) and closed this recruiting office for a few days.

I guess we can't expect solidiers deserting and forming councils in USA yet, I dunno know if we can in the future since conscription is voluntary and not mandatory. Still we should push for coucils. But whoever did this caused this office to be closed for a few days so whatever.


Big mouth, small brain. It's nice to be stupid and young.

"You can burn down my churches but I will be free."

What and you're some old fart whose seen in all?

If you allow some mythic force who you can never relate to, to govern your life, you cannot be free.

[Ferryman 5]

Not you. I was kidding.

Both are ineffective actions when devoid of class content.

However, this person or these people felt neccessary to express themselve(s) and closed this recruiting office for a few days.

I guess we can't expect solidiers deserting and forming councils in USA yet, I dunno know if we can in the future since conscription is voluntary and not mandatory. Still we should push for coucils. But whoever did this caused this office to be closed for a few days so whatever.



What and you're some old fart whose seen in all?

If you allow some mythic force who you can never relate to, to govern your life, you cannot be free.


Ye go on then, you go right ahead and "push for councils". Sounds like lots of fun and terribley worthy.

[bcbm]

Last night around 50 people held the main intersection in downtown Milwaukee at five pm with a street party for a quarter of an hour. Unfortunately it disbanded at the sound of sirens. Ah well. Pics and more info:

http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209433.shtml

http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209446.shtml

[KC]

Last night around 50 people held the main intersection in downtown Milwaukee at five pm with a street party for a quarter of an hour. Unfortunately it disbanded at the sound of sirens. Ah well. Pics and more info:

http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209433.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209433.shtml)

http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209446.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://mke.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/209446.shtml)

The best word I can think of to describe this action is "cute". I figured it'd turn out like this, though. I was going to go to check it out, but went out to dinner instead. Now I'm glad I did.

Anyways, about the same feelings as the recruiting center action. As purely an act of vandalism/law breaking it's cool, but doesn't really have any broader political or social implications. That is all, of course, minus the delusions of grandeur some of these "activists" have:


Firstly, yes. The intention of this was to disrupt business as usual. Surely, only for a moment, but again, it is about building a praxis that can permanently disrupt the dreadful economics of capital. There are goals; but our goals have nothing to do with "appealing to the masses" or appeasing authoritarians such as yourself.

:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

Why is individual vandalism or lawbreaking cool? Don't any of these supposed Leninsts ever read Lenin? Anarchists I expect to mindless hoot and holler in favor of reactionary masturbatory actions, but those who call themselves Leninsts ought to understand that such actions have always hurt the movement.

[KC]

Why is individual vandalism or lawbreaking cool? Don't any of these supposed Leninsts ever read Lenin? Anarchists I expect to mindless hoot and holler in favor of reactionary masturbatory actions, but those who call themselves Leninsts ought to understand that such actions have always hurt the movement.

I don't see how the movement here was "hurt" at all by this.

[bcbm]

The best word I can think of to describe this action is "cute". I figured it'd turn out like this, though. I was going to go to check it out, but went out to dinner instead. Now I'm glad I did.

I figured it would turn out about like this as well. Actually, I was expecting a lot worse (ie, way fewer people, etc). I don't feel too bad about missing it... I'll have plenty of fun in the next few months. Still, I think it went pretty successfully.


Anyways, about the same feelings as the recruiting center action. As purely an act of vandalism/law breaking it's cool, but doesn't really have any broader political or social implications.

I don't think that is entirely true. They show that people are discontent with the current state of affairs and can be inspiring to others, if only as a show of broader discontent. They reach a lot further than most isolated "movement building" type activities as well via word of mouth and press, which in turn can inspire others to get involved. Beyond that, it sends a nice message to our leaders. If these sort of actions became more widespread and frequent, they would have much broader implications. As reactionary as they were, we can learn from the earth/animal liberation movements here. There was a period of years where multiple actions occured every day and that sustained momentum. The reasons it fell apart are varied, but I think we can take from the successes and failures as the lessons there apply to most activism.


such actions have always hurt the movement.

What actions do you propose?

[KC]

I don't think that is entirely true. They show that people are discontent with the current state of affairs and can be inspiring to others, if only as a show of broader discontent.

I think it pissed more people off than inspired them.


They reach a lot further than most isolated "movement building" type activities as well via word of mouth and press, which in turn can inspire others to get involved. Beyond that, it sends a nice message to our leaders.

The only message I can see in it is "the anarchists are at it again".


If these sort of actions became more widespread and frequent, they would have much broader implications.

If, if, if...

[Entrails Konfetti]

Ye go on then, you go right ahead and "push for councils". Sounds like lots of fun and terribley worthy.

O-k-a-y

[Entrails Konfetti]

When will the anarchists rig a cash machine near me?
I've been asking RAAN to do that for ages.

And if they could glue up parking meters again, but this time glue googely-eyes on these meters aswell, that would be a bonus.

I still think you should keep church burning on your agenda, burn a Catholic (a really old one) and send in photos of that with you all crossing your arms making the metal hands.

Also, you should steal a Mickey Mouse costume, put at a circle A on it and rename it "the Autono-Mouse". It could participate in street demonstrations, and riots, aswell as take photos with little kids mistaking it for Mickey.

Oh I know I got more ideas...

[bcbm]

I think it pissed more people off than inspired them.

Do I need to explicitly state that I wasn't really referring to those immediately affected, though I suspect some of them may have been supportive as well.


The only message I can see in it is "the anarchists are at it again".

Which is a worse message than "All quiet on the (mid)western front?"


If, if, if...

As though both of our parts in the movement aren't built on a mountain of "ifs." :rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

What actions do you propose?

Organizing, running for office (even though you won't win), helping people in their daily struggles, not calling down the wrath of the state unnecessarily.

[chegitz guevara]

I don't see how the movement here was "hurt" at all by this.

There have been about 150 of these type of incidents across the country. You might want to take a look at the Feds response to some of our homegrown anarchist terrorists who burn down SUV dealerships or animal testing labs. How much longer do you think it's going to be before the Feds start taking a serious interest in your life?

In any event, no where in history has this sort of activity built a movement. It only ever provokes reaction. Worse, it leads the oppressed themselves to call for that reaction. This bullshit is about nothing more than getting high on your own testosterone.

[KC]

How much longer do you think it's going to be before the Feds start taking a serious interest in your life?

Pretty long.


In any event, no where in history has this sort of activity built a movement.

I never said it built a movement. I didn't even support it. I basically said that it was a joke.


This bullshit is about nothing more than getting high on your own testosterone.

Certainly.

[bcbm]

Organizing . . . helping people in their daily struggles

None of which are mutually exclusive with this type of action. They compliment it, really.


, running for office (even though you won't win),

lol


not calling down the wrath of the state unnecessarily

If the state isn't keeping an eye on you, you aren't doing anything worth doing.

[Entrails Konfetti]

There have been about 150 of these type of incidents across the country.

150 of vandalizing recruitment centers?
I was guessing < 5.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I hereby condemn (not just oppose) this individual-terrorist action like Lenin did in The Autocracy and the Proletariat.

Now, if some petit-bourgeois anarchist wishes to come in here and call me a "class traitor," then I invite such ill-informed response. :)


In any event, no where in history has this sort of activity built a movement. It only ever provokes reaction. Worse, it leads the oppressed themselves to call for that reaction. This bullshit is about nothing more than getting high on your own testosterone.

For what purpose would such calls be made? For personal security only? What about the position of true revolutionaries - Marxists - on such reaction? Would working-class anarchists - out of fear of retaliation - rat out their petit-bourgeois terrorist "comrades" to the cops?

[Entrails Konfetti]

You hear that!
Jacob just condemned something over a message board.

I bet the masked marauder is stewing in his socks about the condemnation.
Did our masked minister of mayhem remember to use a finish over the spray paint?
That way it would be harder to wash off!

And the world spins on, and no one cares.
If the world had an anus, and a thumb, it would stuff its thumb up its anus and spin around. Wee-Weee-Weee!

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ What's your point, comrade? :confused:

[Entrails Konfetti]

I'm just disallusioned with things in the USA.
Were making polls and discussing micro acts of what-have-you. Geez, even in my state, the two big local Indymedias are all about left-liberal things, silly conspiracy theories "Al queda was invented by W" or crusties self-absorbed actions "we hold pot-luck in a park" or "We got arrested for lying infront of power plant trucks, help bail us out". Too much of this hobby-activism, and thats all itis this around me, all these self-absorbed acts. And its all so cliquish, I mean keep your music scenes but don't say its all ecompassing politics. If you must do your own youth-adventurist acts don't publish it, just sing about it to those who want to hear it.

When the hell are we gonna figure the USA out.

We got to use this property crisis to our advantage so no one has to suffer this shit anymore, so we can all be active in history and our lives instead of waiting for the dudes in the chairs to direct things.

During revolutionary situtation you think anyones going to go into deep discussion about graffiti on an agent of the states building, it'll be like ribbons adorning street lamps during Christmas in the suburbs.

[Faux Real]

Why is individual vandalism or lawbreaking cool? Don't any of these supposed Leninsts ever read Lenin? Anarchists I expect to mindless hoot and holler in favor of reactionary masturbatory actions, but those who call themselves Leninsts ought to understand that such actions have always hurt the movement.

Organizing, running for office (even though you won't win), helping people in their daily struggles, not calling down the wrath of the state unnecessarily.You're a self-righteous liberal, not a Leninist.

There have been about 150 of these type of incidents across the country.If that's the case it's telling about the increasing anti-war sentiment.

You might want to take a look at the Feds response to some of our homegrown anarchist terrorists who burn down SUV dealerships or animal testing labs.What a load of bollocks, radical environmentalists are anarchists now? How is that terrorism when it doesn't kill anyone? Do you even know what terrorism is?

How much longer do you think it's going to be before the Feds start taking a serious interest in your life? It's safe to bet that every resident of the US that browses sites like revleft, infoshop, libcom, etc. are actively monitored.

In any event, no where in history has this sort of activity built a movement.There's already an anti-war movement that's only growing.

It only ever provokes reaction.There will always be upper class reaction when their authority, policy and legitimacy is openly questioned. Redundant.

Worse, it leads the oppressed themselves to call for that reaction.The chances of that happening are slim to none if clearly no one is injured or targeted in these kinds of acts.

This bullshit is about nothing more than getting high on your own testosterone.Your politics are boring as fuck (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=03/01/07/4528309).

[KC]

Do I need to explicitly state that I wasn't really referring to those immediately affected, though I suspect some of them may have been supportive as well.I honestly don't see this playing a productive role at all, though. I haven't ever heard of anyone getting "inspired" by this kind of action.


Which is a worse message than "All quiet on the (mid)western front?"No, they're about the same.


As though both of our parts in the movement aren't built on a mountain of "ifs."The problem with your ifs, though, are that they are the same as any other organization not rooted in the class struggle. "If only everyone was vegan, then we wouldn't have all this pollution from meat processing...if only everyone recycled, then we wouldn't have all these environmental problems..." and on and on.

Working class movements aren't built upon such actions, and your "if only everyone did this" will never come true, because it has no basis in the reality of the situation.

Nobody's class interests are served by blocking an intersection.


I'm just disallusioned with things in the USA.
Were making polls and discussing micro acts of what-have-you. Geez, even in my state, the two big local Indymedias are all about left-liberal things, silly conspiracy theories "Al queda was invented by W" or crusties self-absorbed actions "we hold pot-luck in a park" or "We got arrested for lying infront of power plant trucks, help bail us out". Too much of this hobby-activism, and thats all itis this around me, all these self-absorbed acts. And its all so cliquish, I mean keep your music scenes but don't say its all ecompassing politics. If you must do your own youth-adventurist acts don't publish it, just sing about it to those who want to hear it.

When the hell are we gonna figure the USA out.I definitely hear this. I've gone through so much burnout and dealt with so much sectarianism and childish "revolutionaries" with paranoia and delusions of grandeur that it does get draining.

But I kind of use that as an inspiration that because there is so much fucked up that we really do have a lot of work to do, and that we can make a difference through that work. Sounds weird, but it keeps me going.

What are you involved with right now, anyways? I know you involved yourself with union work or something after you left the League (:laugh:), but didn't really hear about anything specifically or what you've been working on since.


If that's the case it's telling about the increasing anti-war sentiment.The anti-war movement isn't increasing; it's losing steam. People have become disillusioned with the petty-bourgeois domination and the shitty "vote for ____" politics of the anti-war movement. Most have stopped participating, but some have turned to "direct action". It's a sign of a break up of the movement, not a growth.


It's safe to bet that every resident of the US that browses sites like revleft, infoshop, libcom, etc. are actively monitored.No it's not. That's a joke, and if you seriously believe that then you have delusions of grandeur.


Your politics are boring as fuck (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=03/01/07/4528309).Politics aren't about "having fun".

[Faux Real]

The anti-war movement isn't increasing; it's losing steam. People have become disillusioned with the petty-bourgeois domination and the shitty "vote for ____" politics of the anti-war movement. Most have stopped participating, but some have turned to "direct action". It's a sign of a break up of the movement, not a growth.Notice I said sentiment, the "movement" has been dysfunctional and I acknowledge that. Seeing acts like these do refresh the mind and get out the message that although it has it's problems the "movement" is still alive.

But yeah, through polls it's obvious the opposition to the war has been increasing ever since its inception.

No it's not. That's a joke, and if you seriously believe that then you have delusions of grandeur.If I hadn't been called by the FBI at 15 [4 years ago] years of age I would believe that. In addition the amount of ease and support legislation with which the "Homegrown Terror and Radicalization Act of '07" and the like are passing through the state government only expands on that kind of monitoring.


Politics aren't about "having fun".They're also not about handing out brochures trying to sell the poor ignorant masses your ideology.

[KC]

But yeah, through polls it's obvious the opposition to the war has been increasing ever since its inception.

Yes, you were right, the sentiment against the war is increasing. I did read what you said wrong. However, the movement itself is fragmenting, shrinking and losing steam as apathy and futility set in.


They're also not about handing out brochures trying to sell the poor ignorant masses your ideology.

Straw man. I never said they were. But at least we can agree that politics aren't about "having fun", and in many cases are boring.

[chegitz guevara]

None of which are mutually exclusive with this type of action. They compliment it, really.

No, it does not compliment it. When I ask people if they are interested in organizing, one of the very first questions is whether or not we do anything illegal. The shit you do is a big turn off to people who aren't ready to tear off their clothes and run naked in the streets to show their contempt for bourgeois conventions.

[chegitz guevara]

You're a self-righteous liberal, not a Leninist.

And I care what an anarchist thinks?


If that's the case it's telling about the increasing anti-war sentiment.

So going from 71% opposition to the war to 66% is increasing? Interesting.


What a load of bollocks, radical environmentalists are anarchists now?

Since they call themselves anarchists, yes. And they have done so for over a generation.


How is that terrorism when it doesn't kill anyone? Do you even know what terrorism is?

People do not need to be killed in order for them to be terrorized. They don't even need to be threatened with death to be terrorized. Terrorism is about instilling fear in people and you can do that with violence against property as easily as you can with violence against people or animals. You anarchist fucks just want to narrowly define terrorism in order to get away with your acts of terrorism.


It's safe to bet that every resident of the US that browses sites like revleft, infoshop, libcom, etc. are actively monitored.

You got proof of that statement or is it just an assumption on your part.


There's already an anti-war movement that's only growing.

From a subsequent post:

Notice I said sentiment, the "movement" has been dysfunctional and I acknowledge that.

So which is it?


There will always be upper class reaction when their authority, policy and legitimacy is openly questioned.

The question is, whether to provoke it when we are ready to fight back or when we are barely alive.


The chances of that happening are slim to none if clearly no one is injured or targeted in these kinds of acts.

That's what the Weathermen thought.


Your politics are boring as fuck (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=03/01/07/4528309).

Which is my point that you just do this shit to get your rocks off. You aren't part of the left. You're just a bunch of posers. In any event, just because something is exciting doesn't make it good. Being beaten by the cops is quite exciting. Trying to organize workers is very boring. Oh well. Actually making a revolution is boring shit.

[bcbm]

I honestly don't see this playing a productive role at all, though. I haven't ever heard of anyone getting "inspired" by this kind of action.

And since you haven't heard of it, it can't be true? There's a number of comments on the indymedia from such people, and passersby offered some support from what I heard. Beyond that, it is inspiring to others in the milieu and helps build momentum towards greater actions in the future.


Working class movements aren't built upon such actions, and your "if only everyone did this" will never come true, because it has no basis in the reality of the situation.

Nobody's class interests are served by blocking an intersection.

If you divorce the medium from the message that might be true, but it is clearly in the the interests of our class to stop the war and end US neo-colonialism. Increasingly militant and visible discontent against that is one method we can pursue at this time to end it. If it becomes increasingly dangerous to those in power to pursue war, they won't. And we can use this struggle and the connections we make to build bridges to other struggles. It isn't movement building in the traditional sense, but it can be a building block. Other movements have built successfully on illegal, communal direct action.


The anti-war movement isn't increasing; it's losing steam. People have become disillusioned with the petty-bourgeois domination and the shitty "vote for ____" politics of the anti-war movement. Most have stopped participating, but some have turned to "direct action". It's a sign of a break up of the movement, not a growth.

Uh... this sort of action has more in common with the beginnings of the war and the movement than what is going on now. It was an attempt to bring momentum back and get people excited again. That everyone now turns on it and whines is more telling of the break up than the action itself.


Politics aren't about "having fun".

Perhaps, but if you find yourself continually, mind numbingly bored by your activity, there is probably something wrong.


When I ask people if they are interested in organizing, one of the very first questions is whether or not we do anything illegal. The shit you do is a big turn off to people who aren't ready to tear off their clothes and run naked in the streets to show their contempt for bourgeois conventions.

So organize in legal ways with those who want to do that, and organize in different ways with those who think differently. Diversity of tactics is more powerful than sticking to one tactic no matter how often you fail.

[Ferryman 5]

Uh... It was an attempt to bring momentum back and get people excited again. That everyone now turns on it and whines is more telling of the break up than the action itself.

It is definitely more telling of dead end left reformist uselessness that has no role or function other than to assist reaction in condemning all spontaneous actions.

In other words, if it wasn't "moved" "amended" "seconded" "voted on" and "linked up" to the "wider movement" vier a "coordinating committee" and waffled on about endlessly by careerist wind bags, then it must useless.

[chegitz guevara]

Yeah, because your brand of revolutionary posturing has worked where?

[RNK]

You're one to talk.

[chegitz guevara]

I can point to Russia, 1917. Anarchists and self-styled urban guerrillas got nothing.

[bcbm]

Could you make a more tired and boring argument?

PS. How did that turn out?:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

Hey, fascism is exciting. If you want stimulation, the Nazi skins have a lot of fun.

[bcbm]

I can't even imagine the twisted thought that went through your heard to make that comment. It doesn't even make sense. Pointing out that your tired "RUSSIA 1917 was teh victory, anarchists got nothing!!!" (nevermind the examples to the contrary) argument has been done to death and is essentially meaningless as an actual point and is therefore "tired and boring" has nothing to do with seeking "excitement" in the sense you're talking about.

And what kind of **** are you to suggest a comrade should join the Nazis? :rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

There are no examples to the contrary. Anarchists never had a sustained victory that wasn't predicated on the imperialists being busy fighting communists at the time. A handful of Korean villages north of the Yalu for a few years while China was splintered? Mahkno carving out a small space between the imperialists and the Soviets?

You anarchists have been flinging around "boring" a lot recently, as if it's a valid argument. It's simply an appeal to emotions. That's how fascists recruit, it's all emotions and excitement. Our side is boring. Their side is exciting. Go have fun.

And what sort of anarchist uses anti-women hate speech? You seem more and more fascist all the time.

[bcbm]

There are no examples to the contrary. Anarchists never had a sustained victory that wasn't predicated on the imperialists being busy fighting communists at the time. A handful of Korean villages north of the Yalu for a few years while China was splintered? Mahkno carving out a small space between the imperialists and the Soviets?

And the Soviet victory wasn't predicated on the imperialists being busy fighting each other?

The mass anarchist movement in Spain? Anarchist involvement in the soviets in 1917? You know where this argument is going and you know neither of us is going to make any headway. Its been hashed out a million times on this forum and that's the point- its a stupid and pointless argument to bring out in this thread.


You anarchists have been flinging around "boring" a lot recently, as if it's a valid argument. It's simply an appeal to emotions.

The context I'm using it in is radically different from the "your politics are boring" slinging you're referring to. I'm saying that the argument you pulled out has been done to death and is irrelevant to this discussion, not that your politics in general are boring or whatever bullshit you're trying to imply.


That's how fascists recruit, it's all emotions and excitement. Our side is boring. Their side is exciting. Go have fun.

Calling the other side fascist is pretty much an automatic logical fallacy. Nothing suggested here has anything to do with fascism and you know it.

Beyond that, fascists recruiting doesn't really resemble any part of this discussion at all. They don't appeal to emotion, they appeal to national and economic concerns of the working class. I've dealt with enough fascist groups to know.


And what sort of anarchist uses anti-women hate speech?**** is a common pejorative in many parts of the English speaking world and is hardly "anti-women hate speech," speaking of discussions that have been done to death. Go look up discussions on the topic.


You seem more and more fascist all the time.:rolleyes: What a fucking joke. Yeah, supporting freedom and egalitarianism and having an extensive background of antifa work, not to mention wanting all power in the hands of the under classes, is pretty much a hallmark of fascism. Sieg heil!

[KC]

The low level of mass working-class action in the last decade has led to a tendency to look to other social forces and means of struggle for solutions. The idea of direct action by smaller groups of individuals (often as part of a wide movement) has taken hold of the imagination of many young people.

Direct action of this kind has a very useful role to play. For example, the demonstrations and blockades in Seattle in 1999 showed how effective direct action can be. Long before the term was coined, direct action has been used in many struggles: from the suffragette movement for women’s rights to the battle against the poll tax. However, it is only successful when it is an adjunct to, and not a replacement for, other forms of struggle.


Anti-capitalism has been effective because it has found a popular echo with millions of people around the world. When deciding if direct action by small groups will be effective or not we must always assess whether it will increase support among the mass of the working class and oppressed, or undermine it? Direct action is useful if it helps to build a mass movement. If it does not, it isn’t.
Socialism in the 21st Century (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/socialism21/index.html)

[bcbm]

Direct action is useful if it helps to build a mass movement. If it does not, it isn’t.

I think it helps. They build momentum. Quick reply because I'm busy.

[KC]

I think it helps. They build momentum. Quick reply because I'm busy.

That's an impossible question to answer without any context. One can't say that direct action is good or bad in principle, so your statement doesn't make much sense.

[bcbm]

Sorry to be vague, I was short on time. I meant that I think this action specifically, and others of the same vein in the anti-war/anti-capitalist movements, are generally helping to build the movement at this point as they're inspiring to people who may have been previously discouraged and dropped out, or to people just finding out about radical politics.

[KC]

Sorry to be vague, I was short on time. I meant that I think this action specifically, and others of the same vein in the anti-war/anti-capitalist movements, are generally helping to build the movement at this point as they're inspiring to people who may have been previously discouraged and dropped out, or to people just finding out about radical politics.I don't think that's true. I think these actions are ahead of consciousness and because of that are isolated incidents, separated from the movement. It's quite telling that those that perform these actions are the same people time after time.

Although I do agree with you that the movement itself is becoming further isolated and marginalized, I don't think such actions are a "new way forward". In fact, as the movement gets more and more isolated, these actions become further and further isolated as well. The only way forward is for us to link the anti-war movement up with other movements and treat them as equally important, while also linking them theoretically and moving them towards an anti-capitalist movement in general.

New tactics would also help, as well. For example, we're trying to start up a divestment campaign on campus here, not only to divest from companies profiting from the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan but against war profiteering in general (thereby linking up with the anti-occupation movement of Palestine and others). We don't think that we will ultimately succeed in having our demands met by the University, but that is only a secondary goal; our primary goal is to raise the consciousness of students on campus and get them more involved, thereby working towards laying the groundwork for a more organized and larger student movement than there currently is.

Milwaukee suffers from numerous problems with its own movement, the most important of which are:
1. A somewhat organized but fractured labor movement - The labor movement here, from what I've observed, is that we do have a pretty good percentage of Milwaukee workers in unions; however, that is as far as it goes. There is some coordination through the Labor Council, but this is more of a means of discussing what each individual organization is doing and is not unity on an inter- or intra-organizational basis. The Capital Returns union movement, for example, was a failure as a result of this.
2. A very unorganized (almost nonexistent) student movement - For years there has been almost no student movement at all on this campus. There's not much more to say about it; it's dead.
3. Division within the city on the basis of race/nationality - This is an obvious problem to anyone that's lived here. Milwaukee is the most segregated city in the country, and one of the most segregated in the world. As a result, these movements are isolated within their respective communities: the Latino community on the south side is about the only place where the immigration movement is strong, the black community on the North/West side have their own issues that are isolated to their communities, and the east side has its own issues (this is primarily where the anti-war movement resides; it is small on the south side and almost nonexistent in the black communities). As a result of this racial/national division there is a sense of territorial "ownership" in terms of these respective movements, which, while not intentional, results in these movements remaining for the most part isolated to their respective communities.
4. A lack of unity between student, labor and these movements - One cannot have unity between these movements until one has unity within them, and so this is our overall goal.

Obviously, this is only a small handful of the problems we are plagued by, but to me they're the most important. In order for us to build an effective movement we have to organize a student movement, unite labor and ultimately unite these movements with these specific movements against the occupation, for immigration, for workers rights, etc... And most importantly of all, we must do so on the basis that these problems are the result of capitalism.

When I judge the effectiveness of an action here, I judge it on the basis of achieving these goals. Did this street party help acheive any of these goals? Not in my opinion. Did the student rally we organized at Spaights help? I think it was a very big step forward in organizing students, and was the cause for us organizing a student feeder march to the citywide rally that was as large as it was. Did the citywide rally help? Yes and no; contacts were made and good things were said, but overall it was much less effective than it could have been (but this is of course due to the fact that it was organized by Peace Action).

[bcbm]

I don't think that's true. I think these actions are ahead of consciousness and because of that are isolated incidents, separated from the movement. It's quite telling that those that perform these actions are the same people time after time.

But it isn't the same people time after time. Even those organizing it, while having some familiar faces from previous work in Milwaukee, saw a number of new people working on it, including some from outside of Milwaukee. While certainly we're not where we'd like to be, things are moving forward slowly but surely.

I was also referring to the movement on a more national scale than explicitly local (not that both are not important). I think a lot of these actions occurring across the country is inspiring and gets other people doing things. It was actions like this that got me back involved after a long period of relative inactivity.


Although I do agree with you that the movement itself is becoming further isolated and marginalized, I don't think such actions are a "new way forward". In fact, as the movement gets more and more isolated, these actions become further and further isolated as well. The only way forward is for us to link the anti-war movement up with other movements and treat them as equally important, while also linking them theoretically and moving them towards an anti-capitalist movement in general.

I don't think these actions are becoming more isolated as they're becoming more common all over the country. I agree on everything else though. I think we need to help try to push the anti-war movements both towards anti-capitalism and towards more empowering actions. I don't like to talk shit on other's tactics and choices of action as I think all have a place, but I think more people would get involved if there was more going on than just a rally and some speeches.


New tactics would also help, as well. For example, we're trying to start up a divestment campaign on campus here, not only to divest from companies profiting from the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan but against war profiteering in general (thereby linking up with the anti-occupation movement of Palestine and others). We don't think that we will ultimately succeed in having our demands met by the University, but that is only a secondary goal; our primary goal is to raise the consciousness of students on campus and get them more involved, thereby working towards laying the groundwork for a more organized and larger student movement than there currently is.

I'm going to be out of town for an indefinite period of time, but I can come back pretty frequently and cheaply so let me know if you'd like help with that. I was part of the divestment campaign at UW Madison and I'd like to help in any way I can, from basic info to advice. Get in touch on this. There are also a number of folks I can think of from the CCC and associated collectives that would be very interested.


Milwaukee suffers from numerous problems with its own movement,

No argument here.


When I judge the effectiveness of an action here, I judge it on the basis of achieving these goals. Did this street party help acheive any of these goals? Not in my opinion. Did the student rally we organized at Spaights help? I think it was a very big step forward in organizing students, and was the cause for us organizing a student feeder march to the citywide rally that was as large as it was. Did the citywide rally help? Yes and no; contacts were made and good things were said, but overall it was much less effective than it could have been (but this is of course due to the fact that it was organized by Peace Action).

It seems that groups have been having trouble getting behind the projects of other groups... there's little overlap in actual projects between PSM, SDS, MNSC, CCC, for example and I think that is a major problem that needs to be rectified. I've gone to a number of meetings to try and help bridge this but I think a major problem is that whenever we (anyone from any of the groups) goes to another group's meeting, we're just pimps for our group instead of people trying to form a connection. I'm not exactly sure how to solve that.

[KC]

I don't think these actions are becoming more isolated as they're becoming more common all over the country.

The frequency of these actions doesn't correlate to their connection with the larger movement. As these actions are part of the movement, and as the movement becomes more isolated, so do these actions.


I agree on everything else though. I think we need to help try to push the anti-war movements both towards anti-capitalism and towards more empowering actions.

The only way to do that is a reorganization of the anti-occupation movement on anti-capitalist terms, uniting all movements under one banner. Unfortunately, I don't think that is very likely.


I don't like to talk shit on other's tactics and choices of action as I think all have a place, but I think more people would get involved if there was more going on than just a rally and some speeches.

I think it's more of a problem with outlook. The movement is dominated by shitty liberal ideology which as proven ineffective; because of this, people see the movement itself as ineffective and don't participate.


I'm going to be out of town for an indefinite period of time, but I can come back pretty frequently and cheaply so let me know if you'd like help with that. I was part of the divestment campaign at UW Madison and I'd like to help in any way I can, from basic info to advice. Get in touch on this. There are also a number of folks I can think of from the CCC and associated collectives that would be very interested.

Yeah, we haven't really started moving it forward but at the student rally two weeks ago I listed our demands. We're kind of unsure of where to go from here.


It seems that groups have been having trouble getting behind the projects of other groups... there's little overlap in actual projects between PSM, SDS, MNSC, CCC, for example and I think that is a major problem that needs to be rectified.

I've experienced these problems firsthand, and it is due to individuals who are more interested in furthering "their own cause" than concern with the movement in general. They don't take others perspectives into account, and because of that, we have this division; nobody wants to work with other groups because they consider those other groups to be "damaging" to the movement (because of actions like these) or "liberals" (because of the condemnation of these actions).

PSM was formed out of one of these differences; organizational differences developed within our SDS chapter, were exacerbated by personal shit and we ended up leaving because of it. I still work with SDS when I can and consider myself a member (although I admit I don't have much time, as I do most of my work through PSM) and we have many members in both organizations, but the split exists because certain individuals can't overcome their petty personal differences or their egos.

As for MNSC, I've heard good things but I've never really worked with them; if they are active they have a poor way of publicizing it.

I know a friend who has tried to "unite" us through an org he calls the "United Left" of which CCC is a part, but it will never work, especially with the way he is going about it.


I've gone to a number of meetings to try and help bridge this but I think a major problem is that whenever we (anyone from any of the groups) goes to another group's meeting, we're just pimps for our group instead of people trying to form a connection.

I don't know if there's any way to solve that; we're members of our group for a reason, because we hold specific views and beliefs that we hold in common with other members of that group. So when you go to another meeting obviously you are going to represent that group through your viewpoints. The only way to solve it is for everyone to stop being so petty and taking shit personally and attacking people that don't have the same belief as you. Granted, that's not the same as criticism (for example, when I say this action was crap, you shouldn't take it personal).

Instead of trying to do the impossible and unite these organizations, we decided instead to go to other organizations on campus and get them involved. To organize that student rally two weeks ago we helped bring together like 13 different student orgs. SDS was invited as well, however some personal shit came up almost right away; luckily it was taken care of, the Campus Coalition Against the War organized an awesome rally and brought in different organizations to political activity which have had little or no experience. That is a profound step in building a movement here, and in raising the consciousness of other students.

So I don't think the answer lays in "uniting the left" but in uniting other student and labor groups; leftists learning to work together will (hopefully) follow.

[bcbm]

The frequency of these actions doesn't correlate to their connection with the larger movement. As these actions are part of the movement, and as the movement becomes more isolated, so do these actions.

Well, I guess it depends which movement we're talking about. While the anti-war movement is dying, the more radical and anti-authoritarian elements therein seem to be on the upswing. The question now is how to translate that into building the larger movement against capital, and I basically agree with the things you say later in this post on that.




The only way to do that is a reorganization of the anti-occupation movement on anti-capitalist terms, uniting all movements under one banner. Unfortunately, I don't think that is very likely.

What I think would be needed would be to put serious effort into organizing a general anti-capitalist movement, like the previous global justice movement and making anti-occupation work a part of that, instead of the main focus, because...


I think it's more of a problem with outlook. The movement is dominated by shitty liberal ideology which as proven ineffective; because of this, people see the movement itself as ineffective and don't participate.

... an explicitly anti-war movement will always be dominated by shitty liberal ideology. This has generally been the case in the US and it has been a response of rulers often, in the face of a successful anti-capital movement (like the anti-nuclear or global justice movement) to escalate military conflict somewhere or other. If they have to deal with a movement, they practically prefer an anti-war movement.


Yeah, we haven't really started moving it forward but at the student rally two weeks ago I listed our demands. We're kind of unsure of where to go from here.

Send me a PM about this, I can try to get you in touch with a few people and give you my thoughts. I don't want that discussion to get wrapped in between the rest of this discussion.


I've experienced these problems firsthand, and it is due to individuals who are more interested in furthering "their own cause" than concern with the movement in general. They don't take others perspectives into account, and because of that, we have this division; nobody wants to work with other groups because they consider those other groups to be "damaging" to the movement (because of actions like these) or "liberals" (because of the condemnation of these actions).

No disagreement here, again.



I don't know if there's any way to solve that; we're members of our group for a reason, because we hold specific views and beliefs that we hold in common with other members of that group. So when you go to another meeting obviously you are going to represent that group through your viewpoints. The only way to solve it is for everyone to stop being so petty and taking shit personally and attacking people that don't have the same belief as you. Granted, that's not the same as criticism (for example, when I say this action was crap, you shouldn't take it personal).

I don't think just saying "This action was crap" is much of a criticism ;), but that's neither here nor there. I think your second to last sentence basically sums it up... most of our groups have overlapping goals, at least on some level and I think, honestly, its only a few extremely petty individuals who hold every one else back because they talk too much shit.


Instead of trying to do the impossible and unite these organizations, we decided instead to go to other organizations on campus and get them involved. To organize that student rally two weeks ago we helped bring together like 13 different student orgs. SDS was invited as well, however some personal shit came up almost right away; luckily it was taken care of, the Campus Coalition Against the War organized an awesome rally and brought in different organizations to political activity which have had little or no experience. That is a profound step in building a movement here, and in raising the consciousness of other students.

Good work!


So I don't think the answer lays in "uniting the left" but in uniting other student and labor groups; leftists learning to work together will (hopefully) follow.

Indeed... I guess we'll see.