Closing?

[Thine Stalin]

Once again you believe in free speech but close my message because it doesn't fit into the free speech you want. You're learning my friend. Now I should ***** about this right? But you are proving exactly what is necessary sometimes malte, the limitations of freedom for a better place, in your eyes anyway. I'm not going to argue about your excuse of it being anti-sematic, I disagree with that and judaism was only a small part of the discussion, the majority of posts were focused on defending stalinism or countering us.

But still, anyway, thank you for proving my point on why stalinist regiemes are needed. Even if it was such a small example.

[Edelweiss]

Oh, how ironic this is. A stalinist is complaining about censorship. :)

[yuriandropov]

this is a disgrace! you moan on about the 'un democratic' stalin and you not only close the thread about stalin, but you ban me from other forums. this is bullshit. i e-mailed malte earlier today and courtiesly asked to be re-instated and all i got was some bullshit about upsetting jewish members, well, we can't have that can we. its ok to upset stalinists, its ok to upset capitalists, its ok to upset facists, its ok to upset nazis, its ok to upset islamic fundamentalists but when comes to jews and there fucking torah or talmud or whatever the fuck they call it, you'll be banned. this board represents all views APART from the working class. you preach on about equality for jews,blacks,gays etc. everyone but the working class. and you wonder why in western countries people are moving to the extreme right? its because of people like you! why can't you put all that shit on hold and concentrate on the working class. only once equality for the prolaterat is achieved can you even think about all that other stuff. it alright for you to sit behind your computers in your nice house in suburban america harping on about the injustices of stalin and the bad treatment of jews when the russian prolaterat (and many other nations' prolaterat) is dying from fucking hunger! if your all so fucking obsessed with equality, why don't you volenteer to come over to russia and help us with our problems. e-mail me and i'll give you the contacts for the red cross and other similar organisations. come and help russia's hunger if your so kind. i bet you i don't get one fucking e-mail! its all right you talking about 'true' marxism. first, we need fucking food! i can't beleive the ignorance of you people. americans have always thought they were better than russians. 'oh, we now about communism you don't, we now how to implement true communism, you were too stupid to do it' thats what you think. well, if you love communism so much, come to russia to fight for our cause. USA will be the last place communism comes too so why don't you come to russia. do you know why? cause your all living the fucking high life in USA or england. i'm in england now on vacation, i went to a marxist dicussion last week, they were just like you. 'what can we do to help jews or blacks'. nothing about the working class. when i asked them about the soviet union, they just ignored me, as if to deny history. they don't want to associate themselves with USSR because obvioulsly, the slavs are too stupid too achieive communism, the westerners will do it better. if you all lived in russia, you wouldn't give a fuck about anti-semitism, you would give a fuck about the true prolaterat. open your eyes to the world around you. not just what you see on CNN.

equality for ALL races of the PROLATERAT!!!!
death to ALL races of the BOUGUAISIS!!!!

[Nateddi]

Yuri, are you russian?

[Edelweiss]

If I would be a stalinist I would send you in the Gulag now for criticizing me. :) C'mon, yuri we all now Stalin even let murdered fellow communists (like the German KPD members), stalinism has nothing to do with equality, it's red fascism.
btw: I'm not from the US.

[yuriandropov]

malte, i wasn't nessecerily critisisng you, just the majority of this boards attitude towards communism. communism is about the working class and i hardly ever see threads about the working class. i may have got too worked up in my last post and if i did, i apologise.
stalin killed communists, well, it depends what you class as communist. stalin mainly killed trotskyists who he didn't class as true communists because of trotskys menshevik past.
i know it looks like it but i'm not even a stalinist really. i just believe that stalinism is needed after the revolution. the revolution needs someone like stalin (or che, or mao). someone who is completely devouted to the communist cause and someone who is hard enough to kill as many as is necessary.

nateddi, vi gavareetye pa rooskee? (sorry, i'm in england with no cyrillic keyboard)

[Nateddi]

Da ya govaryu po russki?

Chto ti delayesh v angleyi?

[Guest1]

Don't equate Che with Stalin! He took measures, but Che was ALWAYS a man of the people.

[yuriandropov]

hold on there! i'm a che supporter, but when USSR pulled its nukes off cuba, che went crazy! thats when he lost faith in the soviet union. che wanted to nuke the US into the stone age. che wanted to kill 280million people and would of aswell. yes che was a man of the people and i even slightly agree with his take on the '62 missile crisis, but he would of had no problem in killing twice the amount stalin did.

[Nateddi]

Yesleb Kuba yadernuyu bombu kinula no ameriku, tagda amerikantsi kinut bombu no sovetski soyuz, i bilo bi conets sweta.

[yuriandropov]

(Edited by yuriandropov at 11:44 pm on May 14, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

About Stalinism and censorship/restrictions on freedom: The thing that gets anti-Stalin Leftists about Stalinism is not that there is censorship or a lack of freedom, but that there is such an unnecessary excess of both of those things. I'm a member of the ACLU but I still wouldn't cry if a man were arrested for setting up a sex shop next to a preschool. It's a rare person (left, right, Stalin or anti-Stalin) who would say that there should never be any censorship or restriction of freedom. What anti-Stalinists like myself dislike about Stalin, therefore, is not the fact that he ever restricted freedom of speech, but that he restricted freedom of speech needlessly and because of his own prejudice/paranoia/idiocy rather than a concern for the Russian people's safety or to protect the USSR's security. I've never crawled into Malte's head, but I'm guessing that he closed "your" topic not because he disliked wha you had to say, but because he weighed the pro's and con's of keeping "your" topic open and decided it wasn't worth it.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 8:06 pm on May 14, 2002
Once again you believe in free speech but close my message because it doesn't fit into the free speech you want. You're learning my friend. Now I should ***** about this right? But you are proving exactly what is necessary sometimes malte, the limitations of freedom for a better place, in your eyes anyway. I'm not going to argue about your excuse of it being anti-sematic, I disagree with that and judaism was only a small part of the discussion, the majority of posts were focused on defending stalinism or countering us.

But still, anyway, thank you for proving my point on why stalinist regiemes are needed. Even if it was such a small example.

Well, you are absolutely right that it doesn't fit in with the freedom of speech we want. You see, the freedom of speech we want is referring to the freedom to say anything you want without the GOVERNMENT censoring you. The freedom of speech you are talking about is personal. This is a simple message board. Silencing you on a personal message board is just as bad as telling someone on the street, "shut up". In that case, I would say that I sure as hell wouldn't want the government to tell anyone to shut up. Everyone has the right to say "shut up". That is a form of freedom of speech. Everyone has the right to go make a message board and then edit it up as they please. This is also freedom of speech. This is democratic. However, to have the small crowd of old guys in a government tell the rest of us what we can and cannot say is simply disgusting. That is not democratic in any way.

However, this message board, in case you weren't aware, is not a government. If it were a government, there would probably be another Cold War. Understand, you disgusting shitfaced idiot?

[CheGuevara]

I liked having the topics open. It distracted the Political Correctness Posse from coming after me.


(Edited by CheGuevara at 12:07 am on May 15, 2002)

Heaven forbid they touch on such "offensive" topics as religion.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 12:08 am on May 15, 2002)

[Nateddi]

I don't mind letting Yuri or Thine talk as long as they don't blatently go against certain offensive subjects such as religion.

[Menshevik]

yeh yuri, are you really Russian?

[yuriandropov]

натедди, его трудный писать по-русски в английском алфавите так вы можете писать в кириллице? вы можете приводить в движение это от окон.

[yuriandropov]

i've tried 3 times now to type cyrillics and each time i have just got what happened above. nattedi, if you go to control panel and keyboard on your computer, you can change the alphabet from english to cyrillic. do that and send me an e-mail as its hard to write russian in the english alphabet.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:56 pm on May 14, 2002
I liked having the topics open. It distracted the Political Correctness Posse from coming after me.


(Edited by CheGuevara at 12:07 am on May 15, 2002)

Heaven forbid they touch on such "offensive" topics as religion.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 12:08 am on May 15, 2002)
Ah yes CheG, now my time has been freed up to ***** and moan about violent kids from Joisey instead of snotty pricks from Russia. My day is complete.

I don't care if they say that my religion is wrong . . . hell, I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone blindly accepted Judaism, or any other religion for that matter. But when people make bullshit generalizations about me, or anyone else, it pisses me off. If Yuri or Thine Stalin want to debate instead of bullshit that's fine. But what they were doing in the "Plight of a Stalinist" thread wasn't.

[CheGuevara]

The capitalists do nothing but make bullshit generalizations, and we let them romp and run over around in the Socialism Vs Capitalism forum

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 10:34 pm on May 14, 2002
The capitalists do nothing but make bullshit generalizations, and we let them romp and run over around in the Socialism Vs Capitalism forum I've seen quite a few communists make bullshit generalizations too. I guess everything needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and each individual situation needs to be weighed on its own.

[CheGuevara]

You should stay away from this topic. The last time you tried to attack me about it, you ended up saying I should change my lifestyle for a bunch of queers. Besides that, you also didn't do such a hot job disproving my generalization.



(Edited by CheGuevara at 3:46 am on May 15, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

am i really russian?? i don't really get what you mean from that comment but if your linking it to me not relpying to nateddi's comments it is because writing russian in english letters is extremely hard. there are no set spellings you only really write it how you pronounce it. i have sent nateddi an e-mail in cryllic russian letters but i can't seem to write it on this board. anyway, on this board, what would i gain from being russian? i get the feeling that russians aren't exactly popular here. no-one talks of lenin and we all no how everyone feels about stalin. i get the impression that you think russia fucked up communism for everyone else? i could be wrong but i have got that feeling from a number of internation comrades.

[Dan Majerle]

Stalinists, the reason why you were banned is because you were blasphemists and racists. I know if you guys said anything about my religion i would track you down and skull [email protected]#$ you!!!!!!!!!

[CheGuevara]

Religion is trash. You chose it, just like the capitalists chose capitalism.

[yuriandropov]

oh no! the middle class 14 year old american wants to skull f"*@ me. whatever that is anyway. give me your religion and i'll denounce it you dumb prick. and yes, i'm aware i''m resorting to personal insults but nothing else seems to get through to you people. BLASPHEMOUS, you call yourself a communist, religion=opium of the masses- karl marx. never has a truer quote been spoken. religion says god is the almighty being, doesn't that go against the classless society? you moron, read the manifesto, read das capital, read what is to be done and most importantly, read 'a world without jews'. oh mr marx, if only that was the case.

[Edelweiss]

Ler me clear up this, the reason why yuri was restricted to this forum was not "blasphemy"! Fuck religion! The reason was anti-semitism which is a huge difference.

[yuriandropov]

how is there a difference? i hate judaism for the same reason you hate religion. i only singled it out because i feel it is the worst religion. i've said many times i don't hate ethnic jews and when reuben questioned me on why i thought stalin was right to purge secular jews in the 50's i gave my answer. they were purged because they were trotskyists, not jews.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Malte on 7:45 am on May 15, 2002
Ler me clear up this, the reason why yuri was restricted to this forum was not "blasphemy"! Fuck religion! The reason was anti-semitism which is a huge difference.


No, Fuck intolerance! Fuck state based religion, Fuck organised religion, fuck religious hiarchy, but "Fuck religion?" na.. fuck you.

[yuriandropov]

Íàòåääè, Âû ïîëó÷àëè ìîþ ñèñòåìó ýëåêòðîííîé ïî÷òû? ß âåñüìà íå ïîíèìàþ âàø âçãëÿä îòíîñèòåëüíî ' 62 ðàêåòíûõ êðèçèñà, Âû ñîãëàøàåòåñü ñ ÷, â êîòîðîì èõ íóæíî áîìáèòü? Íàñêîëüêî áûñòðûé - Âû ïî-ðóññêè?

[Thine Stalin]

Religon is for those that are scared of the real world.

Much like you idealist socialists.

Also for the capitalists. See how much you 2 groups have in common?

[Thine Stalin]

Why can we be as anti-religious as we want but not anti-sematic, semites are jews, jews believe in judaism, judaism is a religon. Therefore we are being anti-religious. If the anti-semite rule was installed to deter nazi's, I wouldn't bother.

[RedCeltic]

Do you know the diffrence between religious organisation and religious faith Yuri/Malte/CheG etc...?

Do you have any fucking clue as what aspects of religion are bad? Or do you just love spouting intolerant crap?

It's religious leaders/organisations that are the problem, nor religion!

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:28 am on May 15, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 9:27 am on May 15, 2002
Why can we be as anti-religious as we want but not anti-sematic, semites are jews, jews believe in judaism, judaism is a religon. Therefore we are being anti-religious. If the anti-semite rule was installed to deter nazi's, I wouldn't bother.


What about religions without religious leaders/organisation? Eh? Burn us at the stake?

[Edelweiss]

[I already have posted this in the commie club:]

Sorry, I didn't wanted to insult anyone with that. But I agree with Marx in his analysis on religion 100%. It's opiate of the people. today beside many other things like TV, sports an so. Actually "fuck religion" is a quote of an Propagandhi (my favorite punk rock band) song.
Here are the lyrics:

You speak of Rastafari
But how can you justify belief
In a god that's left you behind?

You've simply filled the gap
Between the upper and lower class
And your faith merely keeps you in line, in line

An amalgamation of jewish scripture
And christian thought.
What will that get you? Not a fuck of a lot.
Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.

Mt. Zion's a minefield.
The West Bank.
The Gaza Strip.
The West Bank.
The Gaza Strip.
The West Bank.
The Gaza Strip.
The West Bank.
The Gaza Strip.
Soon to be parking lots for american tourists
And fascist cops, yeah!

Fuck zionism
Fuck militarism
Fuck americanism
Fuck nationalism
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion
Fuck religion

[yuriandropov]

if you beleive in a god, you don't beleive in a class less society. if you don't beleive in that, you are not a communist.

[RedCeltic]

That's bullshit! What if you believe in 1000 fucking gods and no hiarchal system? Stupid fuck

[yuriandropov]

well what religion are you red celtic?

[RedCeltic]

I'm a Pagan. I practice an earth based religion. The gods are part of nature, not some detatched omnipitant singular god like in Judeo-Christianity.

[yuriandropov]

what is a pagan? i thought it was some sort of satanic religion with druids and people who look like KKK. i am probobly way off. but what i was saying is that, if you worship a god, you are putting him higher than you. you shoudn't have to worship someone, as in communism, noone is better than the next man.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:56 am on May 15, 2002
what is a pagan? i thought it was some sort of satanic religion with druids and people who look like KKK. i am probobly way off. but what i was saying is that, if you worship a god, you are putting him higher than you. you shoudn't have to worship someone, as in communism, noone is better than the next man.

What a very narrow outlook on life you have. Statanic religion? Satan is an aspect of Christianity.

Gods and Goddesses are aspects of nature, where we are all part of. You condemn what you don't know, which only makes you an ignorant fool.

[Nateddi]

You can still be a communist if you believe in god, as long as you don't believe that god influences anything that happens in this world. (ie: you don't believe in prayer, but you can still believe in an afterlife). I personally don't know if god exists, even if he does, it isn't him who is going to change the world and maintain a society, its the people not the supernatural.

[yuriandropov]

red celtic, ok then, from now on, i'll write in russian and you will have to respond in russian. then when you can't understand something, you'll be the ignorant fool won't you.
why do you think i said, 'i could be way off' and 'what is pagan'. i am aware i know nothing about pagan which is why i asked you to explain. i simply told what i THOUGHT pagan was. are you not allowed to think here now!

Òàê òîãäà êðàñíûé êåëüòñêèé, ÷òî ÿâëÿåòñÿ âàøèìè ìíåíèÿìè îòíîñèòåëüíî 1917 áîëüøåâèñòñêîé ðåâîëþöèè? Äåéñòâèòåëüíî ëè Âû - ïîñëåäîâàòåëü Ëåíèíà, èëè ãëóïîãî ðåëèãèîçíîãî ñîöèàëüíîãî ôàñèñò? ß îòâå÷ó äëÿ Âàñ íà .. ïîñëåäíèé!

i await your responce.

[RedCeltic]

I'm sorry Yuri, I tend to get a bit angery when people put me in the same catagory as Christianity, Jewdism, Islam, etc...

Pagan religions are earth based religions that come from pre christian times. My religion is Wicca, and was practiced by the ancient Celts.

Relgions of primitive, hunter/gatherer peoples tend to reflect their egaliterian view of life. The main focus is not on law/order/submission/servitude as Christianity. The focus is rather on the cyclical view of life.

Paganism, rather than monothyistic religions focuses on the worker in the field, and trade and their connection to the natural world around them.

Monothyistic religions like Christianity however, are used to prove that monarchy is a natural order of things, and a divine right.

Christians persecuted the people who practiced the pre existing religions (that we call paganism) as it had more of an egaliterian view of life, was often bilateral or matrilinial in kinship order (equal rights for women or women above men) rather than Christianity that places the male only has head of the government/church and nature.

Yuri, I'm sorry for being a jerk.. I lost my head.

[yuriandropov]

ok, no problem. i will investigate paganism as it sounds interesting. a lot more socialistic than christianity-judaism-islam.

[RedCeltic]

When religion is forced upon people as the "One true" belief, when people are forced to support church leader and officials which tell them how to believe/worship etc... is when you have problems.

I believe people should be given a limited amount of religious freedoms. That is, to be able to practice in the homes, as long as not forcing their beliefs on others, or affecting society with it.

Religion in public is wrong, and should be outlawed. However the simple belief in something, or the practice in one's own home should be everyone's right.

Religious freedoms should not include freedoms for religion to run ramped and become too powerful.

EDIT: ~~YURI, I sent you a PM..

(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:47 am on May 15, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 10:34 am on May 15, 2002
if you beleive in a god, you don't beleive in a class less society. if you don't beleive in that, you are not a communist.
People who are religious do not always believe in a higher power. That being said, people who do believe in a higher power can still believe in a classless society. They just can't believe in classless cosmos.

[RedCeltic]

Many native American religions either don't believe in any gods, or their gods are only a means to explain why things hapen and aren't worshiped.

The Netsilik Inuit (Eskimo) for example believe that gods are aspects of nature out to make their life hard.

[ID2002]

Malte is 100% correct! Yuri, you need to give your head a shake!

Stalinism = fascism


(Edited by ID2002 at 6:45 pm on May 15, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 1:33 pm on May 15, 2002
Many native American religions either don't believe in any gods, or their gods are only a means to explain why things hapen and aren't worshiped.

The Netsilik Inuit (Eskimo) for example believe that gods are aspects of nature out to make their life hard.
Native Americans were very religious, and many (though not all, of course) of their societies were as close to classless as possible.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 12:45 pm on May 15, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 1:33 pm on May 15, 2002
Many native American religions either don't believe in any gods, or their gods are only a means to explain why things hapen and aren't worshiped.

The Netsilik Inuit (Eskimo) for example believe that gods are aspects of nature out to make their life hard.
Native Americans were very religious, and many (though not all, of course) of their societies were as close to classless as possible.


I'm actually studying Native American culture as I'm majoring in anthropology.

"Bilateral" societies or kinship traced back on both male and female sides, are typicly found in egaliterian societies which mostly are hunter/gatherer.

Depending on who's role in society was most important, depended on if the society was equal, male or female dominant.

The crow and Cherokee for example where female dominant societies.

As for religion, it varies... for some the great spirit played an important role, for others not so much... however for most all groups, regardless, religion was very important.

however introduction of white society, religion and horses caused the Crow to drasticly shift to a male dominated society, and females who once where considered heads of households and tribal groups became property of males.

One group (I forget which one) had the belief in a democratic councel in their religious beliefs. Their myths have the gods creating man and setting up the first councel where every tribal member has equal representation.

They also go into great lengths in that tale of how there can be no one leader for everyone has something to contribute.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:57 pm on May 15, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

facism=stalinism? not true. stalinism is a continuation of leninism with a few differences. if you are against stalin, you are against lenin.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:43 pm on May 15, 2002
facism=stalinism? not true. stalinism is a continuation of leninism with a few differences. if you are against stalin, you are against lenin.

Marxist leninists are two catagories...

Stalinists
Trotskyites

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 3:54 am on May 15, 2002
Religion is trash. You chose it, just like the capitalists chose capitalism.


You choose it, just like communists choose communism.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 7:43 pm on May 15, 2002
facism=stalinism? not true. stalinism is a continuation of leninism with a few differences. if you are against stalin, you are against lenin.


Not true. That's just a coincidence with me.

[RedCeltic]

The word "Religion" includes much more than simply the priest the church the pulpit the book or the dogma all of which I agree are injust aspects inforced on the populace.

My gripe here is simply that I believe when people say they are against religion, they truly mean "Church" or "Temple" ... basicly, modern dogmatic monothistic 'organised' institutions of religious practice.

I can agree with, and argue, many of the points Yuri and others can come up with against "relgion"... they are many of the things that lead me down the path that I am over ten years ago.

Religion that preaches salvation, one true faith, an organised hiarchy, an afterlife (other than the natural cyclical rebirth) and a set dogma... are what people think of when they say "the opeum of the people."

[Dan Majerle]

Quote: shoudn't have to worship someone, as in communism, noone is better than the next man.



Yuri you just wrecked yourself. God isn't a "man", he is a supreme being. As IWDY said you can believe in a classless society and not a classless cosmos! You said i was american, rich and 14? i know i certainly didn't. And what is wrong with being American? Rich? People work hard and in many cases deserve their rewards. You obviously are very poor considering you are away on holiday in Britain and on the internet. Ass.

[RedCeltic]

People work hard and in many cases deserve their rewards.

Listen to what your saying... "Deserve"? .... "Rewards"?...

I'm a Plumber... but recieved no training... my dad teaches me all I know... I should be ahead of you... make more money than you... etc.. BULLSHIT

Work in a trade, you earn your time in service just like everyone else. "Reward"? For what? What Daddy did?

Equal pay for equal work. Management or craft. Labor or executive.

Do you think yourself "Working Class" because Dad works for someone rather than own his own company?

(Edited by RedCeltic at 3:25 am on May 16, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

if there is any fairness on this board, dan majerele should be banned or at least restricted to this forum for baltant bouguasis propoganda. for promoting the bouguas myth that rich people are rich because they work hard. what about the queen of england? what about all these sports superstars or movie stars? hae they worked any harder than me? no, they probobly haven't worked half as hard.
me rich? i'd be willing to bet i'm in the top catagory of earners in FSU. i'd also be willing to bet that my wage is probobly lower than a manuel labourer in USA. i'm 'always' on holiday in england? i've only been on this forum about two weeks, how could you know i'm always on holiday? the computer i am using isn't even mine, its my brothers who emigrated here in the early 1990's. the only thing i have to pay for is the flight so why do i have to be rich? i'll be gone in a week or so anyway so you won't have to worry about someone seeing through you bouguas religious ways.
god isn't a man, he's a supreme being? so you are saying that there is something higher than you? that is not communism.
are you a christian? do you believe in the divine rigt of kings? or are you catholic and beleive the pope is god's representative on earth? at the same time he sits in the vatican in luxery, while millions of catholics starve to death.
you are a disgrace to the communist movement, you are nothing but a religious bouguas who has nothing to do with communism. anyone who disagrees with me, also has nothing to do with communism.

malte, i await to see what action you will take with this person. he is a disgrace to the prolaterat.

[yuriandropov]

RC, that is true about marxism-leninism, however, if you haven't already, i suggest you read stalins book, 'trotskyism or leninism?' IMO, it clearly defines the differences between the basis of the two movements. and proves leninism is more of a prolaterat movement, whereas trotskyism is more internationlists.

[El Che]

Yuriandropov, I wonder if you could do me a favor: turn to page 2 of this forum, there you will find a thread by the name of "RC and TC". Look to page 3 of said thread and there you will find a somewhat extensive post of mine which was made in response to mentaly distrubed capitalist lacky, which has recently vanished of the face of the earth before having time to enlighten me with his insights. If you could find time and inclination to reply to my ideas there expressed I would appreciate it very much. I apologise for not making an equaly long post addressed to you, and therefore more adequate to challenge you. But alas I really haven`t the patience for such an endevor, but I promise to reply to your reply with as much time as is need to address all the issue raised and extented the debate to new fronts.

(Edited by El Che at 12:37 pm on May 16, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

El Che: Capitalist isn't gone, Check "Cuba & Carter" to see him resort to personal attacks on me an my ethnicity.

[yuriandropov]

el che, when you speak of democracy, you speak of bougaus democracy, becasue that is what representative democracy is. capitalists shouldn't have the right to explain there views just as a man doesn't have the right to rape a woman. it is immoral, its as simple as that.
you go on to say how if someone wants to be a lazy bum, let him. (if i understood correctly. tell me if i didn't). that is wrong. if someone wants to be lazy, it will be at the expense of others. that is not what communism is about. being lazy would be very selfish and greedy, that is definatly not what communism is about. in USSR it was illegal to be unemployed. and the employment that was given to people who couldn't find anything else wasn't slave labour. most manuel jobs payed exactly the same.
it isn't that i am against individuelism like stalin. i just think there are certain things where the state (the people) is more important than the individuel. thats what the dictatorship of the prolaterat is about. the prolaterat ruling on behalf of the prolaterat.
again el che, tell me if i misnderstood your post as i only read it once.

[Guest]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 12:01 pm on May 16, 2002
if there is any fairness on this board, dan majerele should be banned or at least restricted to this forum for baltant bouguasis propoganda. for promoting the bouguas myth that rich people are rich because they work hard. what about the queen of england? what about all these sports superstars or movie stars? hae they worked any harder than me? no, they probobly haven't worked half as hard.
me rich? i'd be willing to bet i'm in the top catagory of earners in FSU. i'd also be willing to bet that my wage is probobly lower than a manuel labourer in USA. i'm 'always' on holiday in england? i've only been on this forum about two weeks, how could you know i'm always on holiday? the computer i am using isn't even mine, its my brothers who emigrated here in the early 1990's. the only thing i have to pay for is the flight so why do i have to be rich? i'll be gone in a week or so anyway so you won't have to worry about someone seeing through you bouguas religious ways.
god isn't a man, he's a supreme being? so you are saying that there is something higher than you? that is not communism.
are you a christian? do you believe in the divine rigt of kings? or are you catholic and beleive the pope is god's representative on earth? at the same time he sits in the vatican in luxery, while millions of catholics starve to death.
you are a disgrace to the communist movement, you are nothing but a religious bouguas who has nothing to do with communism. anyone who disagrees with me, also has nothing to do with communism.

malte, i await to see what action you will take with this person. he is a disgrace to the prolaterat.



Hmmmm that was a baffling response. I'll attempt to deconstruct it as best i can. Alright let's go!...

In case you didn't realise, not every rich person on this planet exploits the proletarian. Some people work hard for a living to support their families, put children through top schools and supply them with enough needs to meet their ends. It would be ridiculous to think that all rich people are evil exploiters. Come on you have to think smarter than that.
You mentioned queen of england, etc, basically people who don't work hard yet still get rewards. I admit that is the case in capitalism, i don't advocate capitalism and you are simply pointing out flaws i know and acknowledge exist.
You continue by misquoting me, claiming i said you "always" travel to England when i said "away". This resulted in your defence of being poor which contradicted my original(???) use of the use always, meaning i implied you were so rich that you could travel to England on a regular basis. I repeat i said away to England, maybe you misread, whatever the case what you wrote in reference to that serves to relevance as i have explained that your rejoined to my post did not include actual words that i used, making it immaterial.
You also have a habit of making generalisations. Who said i was a communist? A christian? Somebody supporting the bourgeiousie? A 14 year old rich American? As a 40 year old man i would have thought better then that. If you think God is of equal status to human beings then you are kidding yourself. Hence the fact that people worship him and follow him, not the other way round. There are many famous religious socialists in the past as Moskitto will point out. You don't necessarily have to be an athiest to believe in communism or socialism. Nonetheless just because i believe in God doesn't mean i don't believe in communism or do. Generalisations like that only hurt your "argument".
You conclude with a haughty and supercilious remarks that implies your thought is the absolute thought and that you are infallible and right above everyone else. I don't even think i need to respond to that except say one word. Ass
Thank you

[Guest]

P.S. that was Dan Majerle, i forgot to sign in.

[yuriandropov]

well what are you then? i've been open about who i am and what i beleive in. this is a discussion forum isn't it? it would help i people knew what each other beleived in so they could discuss it, right?

[Reuben]

equality for ALL races of the PROLATERAT!!!!
death to ALL races of the BOUGUAISIS!!!!


your reference to races of the proletariat and races of the bourgoirsie pretty much explains why most people dont like you.

You also have a deeply ethnocentric outlook

[yuriandropov]

sorry i do beleive i worded that wrong. what i meant to say was death to all bouguasis regardless of class, like death to bouguasis of all races. and equality to all prolaterat, regardless of race. it just came out wrong.

ps when you guys are discussing me over in the 'commie club' why doesn't one of you bring up the fact that dan majerele and his blatent pro-bouguas, right wing comments have not been banned. and my pro-working class and alleged 'anti-semitic' comments have.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:18 am on May 16, 2002
capitalists shouldn't have the right to explain there views just as a man doesn't have the right to rape a woman. it is immoral, its as simple as that.
It would not be immoral to let a capitalist express his views. It would only be immoral if the capitalist was allowed to explain his views and no one except for other capitalists was allowed to respond. Come to think of it, it would also be immoral if communists were allowed to explain their views and only other communists were allowed to respond.

Lindsay

[yuriandropov]

IWDY, i don't agree with your views. in a communist country, there would only need to be one party. it would be run for the majority (bolshevik) which is the working class. the capitalists would try to twist things, just like they did in USSR in the late 80's and now where are we? if all capitalists would have been crushed, we wouldn't be in this mess. a society must have freedom, but there is such a thing as too much freedom. eg people aren't allowed to steal from one another because ultimatly, if everyone did it, it would not benefit society. the same thing can be said for capitalism, it would not benefit society as a whole. therefore, it should be made a crime like stealing is.

[yuriandropov]

here is a great quote by my board namesake the great yuri andropov (1914-1984), head of kgb (1967-1982) and general secratary of the communist party of the soviet union (1982-1984).

"This is why Western propaganda makes so much fuss about `human rights' and about the so-called `dissidents'...Soviet citizens have the right to criticize and to make proposals. This right is guaranteed by Article 49 of the Constitution, which forbids repression for criticism...But it is an entirely different matter when a few individuals tranform criticism into anti-Soviet activity, violate the law, supply Western propaganda centers with false information, disseminate false rumors, try to organize anti-social actions...These renegades have no support from the Soviet people. This is why they never try to make open speeches in factories or on collective farms or in other state organizations. They know very well that they would be thrown out of such meetings...The existence of dissidents in the Soviet Union is only possible because of publicity campaigns in the foreign press, and support for them through dipolmatic, secret and other special services who pay `dissidents' generously in foreign currency and by other means. There is no difference between the payment which secret services makes to their own agents and to dissidents."
(9 Sep 1977)

do you see know how capitalist manipulate things? the west's propaganda machine was paying 'dissidents' money to stir up anti-soviet, pro capitalist propaganda. they do this by lying and twisting things to trick the soviet people. this is why capitalists must be silenced in communism. because they manipulate.

[Reuben]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 2:17 pm on May 15, 2002
how is there a difference? i hate judaism for the same reason you hate religion. i only singled it out because i feel it is the worst religion. i've said many times i don't hate ethnic jews and when reuben questioned me on why i thought stalin was right to purge secular jews in the 50's i gave my answer. they were purged because they were trotskyists, not jews.


Yes and when I provided you with evidencethat any of these secular jews purged included ardent supporters of stalin were purged simply because they were jews who weere associated with jewish culture and the jewsih national language (Yiddish) YOU DEFENDED WHAT HAPPENED ON THE BASIS THAT JEWS REFUSED TO ASSIMILATE AS RUSSIANS. This isd likeme saying that african-caribean cultural leaders in britain should be purged and persecuted because the great mass of African-caribenans wish to maintain their minority Identity.

You are nothing but an ethno centric racist who believes in COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT of ethnic groups who may among st most refuse to assimilate.

[yuriandropov]

reuben, where is your evidence that the secular jews who were purged supported stalin?
what was the name of the soviet communist party? thats right, bolshevik. what does that mean, majority! the bolsheviks rule in favour of the majority. anyone in the minority is a potential enemy. jews were in the minority in the USSR and were potential enemies.
to answer your question. if i were leader of the british communist party and i got into power. yes, i would investigate all non-assimilated britons as potential enemies. i wouldn't purge them straight away, but they would be possible enemies. thats just the way it is and you know it.
i'll ask you a question, do you think the african communists were right to discriminate against the white land owners and settlers when they came to power? because i do. i think they were absolutly right to persecute them. because they were potential enemies. its the makavellian principle of eradicating all enemies so you can hold power. power for the working class.

(Edited by yuriandropov at 10:44 pm on May 16, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:43 pm on May 16, 2002
here is a great quote by my board namesake the great yuri andropov (1914-1984), head of kgb (1967-1982) and general secratary of the communist party of the soviet union (1982-1984).[hr]We all know that members of the Communist Party were committed to nothing but the interests of the Soviet workers. Oh, wait, that's right! The Soviet system was corrupt and Communist Party members were treated with the favoritism that your comrade Thine Stalin so despises while many communists were actually killed by the Soviet government (and the KGB . . . what a koinky-dink!) for not being the right kind of communist.[hr]Quote: from yuriandropov on 4:43 pm on May 16, 2002
The existence of dissidents in the Soviet Union is only possible because of publicity campaigns in the foreign press, and support for them through dipolmatic, secret and other special services who pay `dissidents' generously in foreign currency and by other means.[hr]Yeah. No one could possibly disagree with Soviet policy because it resulted in the deaths of millions, because the Communist Party was incredibly corrupt, or because there are many different types of communism. Every single person who ever disagreed with the Soviets must have been a capitalist!

[PaulDavidHewson]

Yuri, if my memory serves me right than I clearly recall the Mensheviks being the majority in the USSR.

The bolsjeviks just held power and the mensheviks didn't.

[Anarcho]

Before WWII, there were many officers in the Red Army that were well thought of, liked by their troops, efficient, and effective. They were purged.

Yuri, the problem is that you have a very narrow view of the West, and capitalism in general. You are just as much a victim of 'brainwashing' as the fervent capiltalists on this board are. You refuse to even give credence if someone states something worthy, if they dis-agree with your high handed stance.

The fact of the matter is, commerce and capitalism are essential, especially during a transitionary period. The USSR was not a Bolshevik state. It was communist in name only.

If I were in the USSR in the 60's or 70's, and I wanted to apply for a grant to hold a calm, rational public speaking about some flaws that I perceived in the system, it would not be granted. Period. And if I questioned why, I would disappear.

How is this beneficial to the state?

The Soviet Union was a corrupt, imperialist state. The government was feared by many of the people. The KGB which you are so proud of was even more brutal than the CIA in it's dealings with proxy states.

In the end, it collapsed because the people wanted it too.

If it were a paradise, as you seem to think (and being in the KGB, for you it would have been.... but I bet you scared the shit out of your neighbors..) there would have been no dissidents, the "infiltrators" of the West would have been told to go home.

If you're willing to rationally debate, I would be more than happy to do so, but if you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and make snide comments, I'm done with this thread.

[yuriandropov]

pauldavidhewson, lenin named his faction of the social democrats bolshevik (meaning majority men) because they ruled in favour of the majority, the working class. he then named the mensheviks (minority men) because he felt they ruled in favour of the minority.

[yuriandropov]

IWDY, ha ha ha ha! the western propoganda you have been fed is laughable! i will be back later the explain why.

[yuriandropov]

anarcho, your comment on the USSR proves that even an ardent leftist can be poisoned by propoganda of the western kind.

the soviet people did not want the system to collapse, they wanted it reformed. it collapsed because of that low life yeltsin, who sacrificed the socialist motherland for his own personal gain.

i don't have time now but i will be back with the statistics later on to prove my statement.

[BananaKing]

Anarcho is a right-winger

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[STALINSOLDIERS]

making people fear you is like making people be obiendient and not do anything wrong....its like a child if he or she does something wrong you spank them till they are scared and when they are they wont do it again.

[RedCeltic]

[EDIT]:Post removed, posted in the wrong the wrong thread.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:21 pm on May 17, 2002)

[El Che]

Yuriandropov, you have no vague conception of what the words human being mean. You are aint-human. You do not recognise the fundamental rights that are inherent to the human condiction. The right of each individual to speak his mind, the individual as recipient of unalienatable rights which are above social determination. You suport a system which strips people of fundamental rights, a system which is aint-human and is also a social retrocess. Communism, is the social evolution achived by Socialism (hopefuly anyway). Therefore Socialism is the antithesis of Fascism, one representes a social evolution the other a social retrocess. You can`t walk backwards and fowards at the same time, you can`t take away power from the people and say workers rule, you can`t substitute the bourgousie with the beurocrat and say you`ve achived a classless society, you cant, yuriandropov, justify the means with the ends. Moreover with the means in question, the end will be quite different, though you unfortunatly can not see this. Truly tragic this is. But you wont listen to me will you? Just like if I try and convince a Nazi that racism is aint-human and that the holocaust really did happen he won`t listen to me either. Yuri, how can democracy be bourgousie? can you grasp the self delusion implicit in this statement? You are calling universal suffrage, something that is amoral, something that is merely a consultation of public opinion, bourgousie. Tell me do ballot boxes run around exploiting workers? lol.

Marxist-Leninism is self delusion, its madness. Possibly, in some cases, it is a madness that results from the suffering caused by Capitalism and made possible by a low level education, the latter is often also a cause of Capitalism. But it is madness just he same. I urge you to wake up yuri, better late then never.


(Edited by El Che at 7:25 pm on May 17, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

marxism-leninism, madness? a disgraceful comment! vladimir illyich ulyanvov lenin was the greatest man in the history of the world. he was the first man to stand up for the working class and over throw its bourgeois oppressors. he was the leader of the first socialist state in the world. he was a man void of all material possesions, he did not care for himself, only for the working class, he lived in an apartment no better than the average skilled worker, he refused to be paid more than a skilled worker, he gave up everything for communism and the working class. his one love in life was listening to beethoven, but he stopped listening to it. do you know why? because it made him soft inside and to achieve communism, he had to be hard! he cared not for love, he married a fellow revolutionary, he only cared for equality amongst the working class. he was the most dedicated class warrior in the histroy of man kind. "if it is necessary to kill 9/10 of the population i order to achieve communism, then we must do it", "when it comes to achieving communism, there are no morals". these quotes show his dedication to the communist cause. why would he want to kill 9/10 of the population you ask? most people would say 'for his own benefit' but not lenin. he did it for the working class, the prolaterat of the soviet union. if he did it for himself, how come he did not live like royalty? he did it for the benefit of others. he was a true communist! he would walk the streets of USSR speaking to the workers, not living the high life like brezhnev. this is why he died, a cowardly monarchist tried to assasinate him, lenin survived but the strokes he had after eventually killed him. to call yourself a communist and speak ill of lenin is a disgrace to the movement of the prolaterat.

[El Che]

Lenin said, in reference to Beethoven "I can not listen to this, it makes he want to kiss children and hug people". Indeed I think Lenin had his heart in the right place, if I can be so bold a to make that especulation. But I disagree with his aint-human intentions. How come you dont answer 1 single point yuri? why do you prefer to side track the discussion to value judgements of Lenin the man and not Leninism the political philosophy of fascism? Are you afraid? maybe you cant handle an enviorment of free discussion. Maybe the only way you can handle your intellectual oponentes is by declearing them enemies of the people.

[yuriandropov]

i cannot answer your comments now as i am too angry with your blatant anti-leninism. i will answer your points later.

[yuriandropov]

how is democracy bourgeois? bourgeoisie have money, people get tempted by money, money manipulates people, bourgeois manipulate people. simple as that. communism is peoples democracy, if you want a say, join the party and you will get your say. the beaty of the system is, many people don't want a say, they just want security and the ability to live a happy life, those who do want a say, can have it through the party.
you speak to much of freedom. have you read marx? freedom only exists for the bourgeoisie. maybe in USA, there are chances for the prolaterat, but only if you are very gifted. i see private property as immoral, i see it as illegal. you see stealing as immoral, it is the same difference. do you think people have a human right to steal, no! and if they do, they pay the consiqences, just like in communism. you break the law, you pay the price. this is why i would always choose to live in USSR rather than USA. USA has no laws, youngsters run into schools and shoot fellow students, pensioners get mugged at gun point and drugs are used to keep the prolaterat down. this is no civilised society.
capitalists should not have the right to spout there philosophy just as you don't have the right to steal. and if you do steal in america, you only get very light sentance. too much freedom. you are just asking the criminal to steal again, just like if you let the capitalist off, you are asking him to do it again. and don't say i'm not confident enough in my ideology, because we both know how propaganda can turn people. coming on this board and speaking to americans has showed me that propaganda can affect anyone. you all see USSR as a monster regime, but how many of you have been there? how many of you have spoke to people from there? i know nateddi has, but i doubt any one else has. you just read western newspapers and think you know what going on when in fact, you don't. thats not your fault, but it is the way it is.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

usa doesnt care about no one all it cares is about $$$ , for the global warming usa didnt want to join the european union it rather watch the world die in your faces then to give up a few million. they rather let you pay taxes for cleaning up for them...this country usa is nothing but caos they dont give a fuck about you so destroy them kill them ablosih them make them no more.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Why do you generlise like this?

You talk like everyone in the usa is a bully and a capitalist.

Don't you know that most people in the USA and the rest of the world are just trying to get by and make a decent living for themselves?

They don't care about your revolution, they don't care about polution in the 3rd world. They'll only care about matters if things start to happen in their own back yard.


If the people in the USA really cared or worried about global warming they would have hit the streets.
You think everyone is stupid and ignorant?

You are sadly mistaken if you think political consciousness is only restricted to the rich and the famous.

People are more aware then you think, but again if you want people to act you have to unify their passion and that passion happens to be $$$.

Because with $$$ comes even more $$$ and then you can get everything you desire.
Most people just want to make the best out of their short lives, because before you know it it's over.

[El Che]

Yuri u must fight against capitalist interferance with the democratic process, and not democracy its self. Democracy must precede Socialism, Democracy is a human right. I`m sorry but democratic centralism just isn`t enough. Democracy for the vanguard is no democracy at all. Your only weapon is your freedom of speech and your ideas.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from STALINSOLDIERS on 6:53 pm on May 17, 2002
making people fear you is like making people be obiendient and not do anything wrong....its like a child if he or she does something wrong you spank them till they are scared and when they are they wont do it again.


So a country of 100 million people is just like a child then?? Please SS, let's look at this rationally. A child should only be smacked ever (if at all, but that's a different debate) when they have clearly done something wrong. I don't count speaking your mind as doing something wrong. Besides, smacking a child is a means to an end: you want them to grow into good-natured, well-behaved and responsible adults, as they are too immature to understand the difference between right and wrong. Saying that it is the same case for a whole nation, and that El Presidente must be the most intelligent (and therefore able to teach the nation right and wrong) solely because he is in charge is not only naive, it is also damn patronising.