Fetishes, and relationships with a focus on 'race'. Inherent tendencies?

[Bilan]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine, sparked by the revival of a thread in this forum, and we got to discussing 'race' in relationships.
And so I'm asking, if someone was to hold the position that they "find white people more attractive", is this inherently, or does it imply racist tendencies?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

I stated it was, and that if, "Someone who basis their attraction on ‘race’, i.e. that one race is more attractive than another, implies that the person is racist, or values when race above another. It is not certain but it implies that."

*They* stated, that So? "That's not racism. That's sexual attraction." and that "I' don't think that anybody is attracted to somebody just for being 'white', in the abstract conceptual way, but their features, in being white."

Thoughts?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I don't think it's racist. In any case the "racist" here is mentally blameless, as what you do and do not find attractive is something you have little control over.

As far as I'm concerned that would be like saying someone is "racist" or in some other way reactionary or discriminatory for preferring a certain hair/eye colour etc.

[Unicorn]

IMO, this typical preference is created by an institutionally racist capitalist media and society which elevates white feminine beauty above the beauty of other races. It is still not evidence that the person is racist himself.

[jake williams]

While we can debate a bit about most of the differences between "racial groups", the fact is that visually people from different parts of the world are pretty different. More than enough to create a preference. Now: this preference could lead to racism, and it certainly could come from it, but the two are definitely not directly related. And like Mr. Burgundy said, it's not something one really decides.

[Sankofa]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine, sparked by the revival of a thread in this forum, and we got to discussing 'race' in relationships.
And so I'm asking, if someone was to hold the position that they "find white people more attractive", is this inherently, or does it imply racist tendencies?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

I stated it was, and that if, "Someone who basis their attraction on ‘race’, i.e. that one race is more attractive than another, implies that the person is racist, or values when race above another. It is not certain but it implies that."

*They* stated, that So? "That's not racism. That's sexual attraction." and that "I' don't think that anybody is attracted to somebody just for being 'white', in the abstract conceptual way, but their features, in being white."

Thoughts?

Of course this is racism, how is it anything but?

This is actually nothing new; it's a world wide phenomenon for non-white people, that the more "white-looking" you are, you're "attractive" and the darker you are you're "ugly".

This is actually an off-shoot of racism which has been dubbed colorism but essentially it's the same thing.

Unicorn's post:


IMO, this typical preference is created by an institutionally racist capitalist media and society which elevates white feminine beauty above the beauty of other races. It is still not evidence that the person is racist himself.

This is basically the root of the problem. White people generally don't notice, but "whiteness" has institutionally been put on a pedestal when compared to other races. You can see this through the news, television, movies, magazines, etc.

[Unicorn]

Of course this is racism, how is it anything but?

This is actually nothing new; it's a world wide phenomenon for non-white people, that the more "white-looking" you are, you're "attractive" and the darker you are you're "ugly".

This is actually an off-shoot of racism which has been dubbed colorism but essentially it's the same thing.
I don't think a racial preference in dating is necessarily "racist". I know a white woman who dates black men only. She does not even consider white men. This kind of racial preference is obviously not racist.

In a socialist society people would continue to have sexual preferences towards a particular race. Even people who prefer whites would not be racist because their preference would not serve as an instrument of oppression unlike in capitalist societies.

[Neutrino]

I'm a guy and I find guys more attractive than girls. Does that make me a sexist?

[spartan]

This is basically the root of the problem. White people generally don't notice, but "whiteness" has institutionally been put on a pedestal when compared to other races. You can see this through the news, television, movies, magazines, etc.

I agree.

From childhood everyone (No matter there race) is bombarded with images of beautiful blonde haired blue eyed white women with big busts and this obviously sticks in peoples minds as the "ideal" of beautiful women.

So you can hardly complain (Though racists try) when you find non-white men wanting to date white women because that is what society and the media have been telling them is the perfect example of beauty since their early childhood!

Recent studies have shown that there has been an increase in marriages between Asian women and white men and i will be damned if the stereotypes (Dragon lady, submissive, etc) of Asian women hasnt got anything to do with white men suddenly wanting to date Asian women.

Of course i am sure that a majority of these relationships are actually true cases of love or simple attraction, but one cant deny that we are all influenced, to some extent, by what we see from society around us and react accordingly to this influence.

Though if we didnt think in terms of race this wouldnt even be an issue, so that also says something about our current society (i.e still thinks in terms of race).

[Sankofa]

In a socialist society, ideally, the issue of race won't exist. People will always have their preferences when it comes to being attracted to someone, but these preferences aren't synonymous with race.

White women exclusively dating dating black men in my experience is more of an issue of fetishism , but this is an entirely different topic.

[Black Dagger]

I stated it was, and that if, "Someone who basis their attraction on ‘race’, i.e. that one race is more attractive than another, implies that the person is racist, or values when race above another. It is not certain but it implies that."

Personally speaking, i find myself attracted to people of colour at a higher frequency than people with 'white' skin - i don't think 'white' people are unattractive - but in general, i'm more attracted to people of colour- is that racist? If not, then how can it be in reverse? Though i do think a general preference is different from saying you don't find X skin colour or 'race' attractive at all - that's just odd - we're all human after all.

[Sankofa]

I'm a guy and I find guys more attractive than girls. Does that make me a sexist?
:rolleyes: Nice strawman. Homosexuality isn't sexism.

[Jazzratt]

Given that the only difference between "races" is in bone structure, skin pigmentation and other minor physical features I would say it is perfectly normal to find one "race" more attractive than another, based mostly on which one most frequently has features you find attractive. If you want to call that racism then you should probably describe anything but polysexuality as sexist.

[Sankofa]

Given that the only difference between "races" is in bone structure, skin pigmentation and other minor physical features I would say it is perfectly normal to find one "race" more attractive than another, based mostly on which one most frequently has features you find attractive. If you want to call that racism then you should probably describe anything but polysexuality as sexist.

I disagree. I think we're all in agreement that "race" is a relatively frivolous concept, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't apply in the real world.

This thread is specifically a discussion on the issue of white privilege in relationships. The fact is; there is a universal line of thought were "whiteness" is considered something to glorify, and anything else is ugly and undesirable.

This has nothing to do with features, it's about skin color period.

[BobKKKindle$]

It seems that several members are assuming that the only type of "racial" fetish is a preference for people who are "white". This is false. I am "white" but I find myself attracted to Asian girls far more than girls of any other "race" and I actually find that "white" girls all tend to look the same - hence I have only ever dated Asian girls and don't see myself dating any "white" girls in the future.

This does not mean that I am "anti-white" or racist in any way - I just happen to find a certain set of features and facial characteristics attractive, this is not something I am able to control, I can't change my conception of what is attractive, and I don't actually know why I have a preference for Asians.

Every person has different preferences when it comes to physical attraction, and sometimes these preferences correspond with a the features prevalent in a group which is defined as a "race". However, there are other preferences which might have nothing to do with race - for example, some men prefer women that have long hair. Yet no-one would argue that these "non-racial" preferences are discriminatory against people who do not possess the corresponding feature.

[Neutrino]

This has nothing to do with features, it's about skin color period.

But different--as you say, "races"--have different features, not just different skin colors. In fact, it's more about features, as skin color covers a range, with different groups occupying different spaces and plenty of overlap.

[Sankofa]

It seems that several members are assuming that the only type of "racial" fetish is a preference for people who are "white". This is false. I am "white" but I find myself attracted to Asian girls far more than girls of any other "race" and I actually find that "white" girls all tend to look the same - hence I have only ever dated Asian girls and don't see myself dating any "white" girls in the future.

This does not mean that I am "anti-white" or racist in any way - I just happen to find a certain set of features and facial characteristics attractive, this is not something I am able to control, I can't change my conception of what is attractive, and I don't actually know why I have a preference for Asians.

Every person has different preferences when it comes to physical attraction, and sometimes these preferences correspond with a the features prevalent in a group which is defined as a "race". However, there are other preferences which might have nothing to do with race - for example, some men prefer women that have long hair. Yet no-one would argue that these "non-racial" preferences are discriminatory against people who do not possess the corresponding feature.

Non-white races finding themselves ugly and whites more suitable is an issue of self-hatred and has nothing to do with fetishism.

However, your overbearing preference for Asian women is a fetish; you have no reason to hate self. "Whiteness" is considered the norm and what is to be strived for in society.

What "characteristics" exist in a certain race that makes others undesirable? Of course something as trivial as "long hair" isn't racist, because finding short haired women unattractive doesn't have anything to do with skin color and therefore isn't discrimination.

[Sankofa]

But different--as you say, "races"--have different features, not just different skin colors. In fact, it's more about features, as skin color covers a range, with different groups occupying different spaces and plenty of overlap.

This is false, and a failure to accept basic reality. Sure, "races" tend to have different features, but these minor differences aren't enough to cause staunch feelings of disgust amounst people of a different group.

The topic of the discussion was some one finding "white" more attractive, which is a common view universally. Race comes first and the features last.

[BobKKKindle$]

However, your overbearing preference for Asian women is a fetish; you have no reason to hate self. "Whiteness" is considered the norm and what is to be strived for in society.It's undeniable that women are pressured to present themselves in a certain way, in accordance with what men find attractive - however, this "image" does not correspond to "whiteness" because that would imply that white women embody this ideal and are not oppressed in the same way as other women who are not considered "white" - but even white women are facing pressure to adapt their bodies and use cosmetics to appear more attractive, in ways that are not actually connected with "race" at all, such that problems which derive from bodily insecurity (a failure to emulate the beauty norm promoted by popular culture) like eating disorders are most prevalent in countries where a large part of the female population is "white". Thinness is an important (perhaps the most important) component of the "beauty image" and yet thinness is a trait that transcends racial divisions - white women are not naturally thinner than women of other racial groups.

The problem is not as simple as you've made it out to be. Yes, the "beauty image" does involve a degree of racial oppression, in the sense that the beauty image includes features which are associated with white women, such as a lighter skin tone and larger breasts, but ultimately this image is not something that can be attained by most women, and is not solely racial (note the importance of remaining slim, slimmer than what is actually healthy) and so it oppressive for white women as well.


What "characteristics" exist in a certain race that makes others undesirable? Of course something as trivial as "long hair" isn't racist, because finding short haired women unattractive doesn't have anything to do with skin color and therefore isn't discrimination.Are you saying that something can't be discriminatory if it does not concern the color of one's skin? What about prejudice against people who are physically disabled?

[Sankofa]

It's undeniable that women are pressured to present themselves in a certain way, in accordance with what men find attractive - however, this "image" does not correspond to "whiteness" because that would infer that white women embody this ideal and are not oppressed in the same way as other women who are not considered "white" - but even white women are facing pressure to adapt their bodies and use cosmetics to appear more attractive, such that problems which derive from bodily insecurity (a failure to emulate the beauty norm promoted by popular culture) like eating disorders are most prevalent in countries where a large part of the female population is "white".

The problem is not as simple as you've made it out to be. Yes, the "beauty image" does involve a degree of racial oppression, but ultimately this image is not something that can be attained by most women, and so it oppressive for white women as well.



Are you saying that something can't be discriminatory if it does not concern the color of one's skin? What about prejudice against people who are physically disabled?

Let me explain. We're talking about two different types of oppression. Women in general are expected to adhire to images of beauty that they see in fashion magazines and TV; which leads to this problem of eating disorders and the like. This is a type of mind set which, while a problem, is not related to the race issue.

You're failing to understand this subject from a non-white perspective. After centuries of slavery and systematic oppression, there is a haunting spectre of self-hatred for black people.

Light skin was (and still is) considered more precious than some one who was dark. Take for example, the famous "Doll Test" by the psychologist Kenneth Bancroft discovered that black children in the study considered the white dolls more "attractive", "nice" , and the one they would rather play with. The black dolls were chosen when asked they were asked to pick the ones that were "mean", or "ugly" and most like them.

Skin bleaching cream is still being bought by people of color, as well as black women using chemical perms trying to make their hair straight, because "bad hair" within the black community is the natural, nappy kind and long straight "white" looking hair is called "good hair".

Blacks, of course, aren't the only non-whites who suffer from self-hatred, these are just examples. This "beauty image" that's present in the world is of whiteness.


Are you saying that something can't be discriminatory if it does not concern the color of one's skin? What about prejudice against people who are physically disabled?

Blah, that was a mistake in my last post. I meant to say, the situation I cited from you wasn't racial discrmination.

[Neutrino]

This is false, and a failure to accept basic reality. Sure, "races" tend to have different features, but these minor differences aren't enough to cause staunch feelings of disgust amounst people of a different group.

The topic of the discussion was some one finding "white" more attractive, which is a common view universally. Race comes first and the features last.

You seem to be asserting that race is different from features. This is not the case by any means. For instance, the media often portrays east Asian males at the bottom of the hierarchy of attractiveness. Yet, in terms of skin pigmentation, they're not really that different from whites. Maybe "color" is the term you're looking for, but it wouldn't suit your argument any better.

[Unicorn]

Let me explain. We're talking about two different types of oppression. Women in general are expected to adhire to images of beauty that they see in fashion magazines and TV; which leads to this problem of eating disorders and the like. This is a type of mind set which, while a problem, is not related to the race issue.

You're failing to understand this subject from a non-white perspective. After centuries of slavery and systematic oppression, there is a haunting spectre of self-hatred.

Light skin was (and still is) considered more precious than some one who was dark. Take for example, the famous "Doll Test" by the psychologist Kenneth Bancroft discovered that black children in the study considered the white dolls more "attractive", "nice" , and the one they would rather play with. The black dolls were chosen when asked they were asked to pick the ones that were "mean", or "ugly" and most like them.

Skin bleaching cream is still being bought by people of color, as well as black women using chemical perms trying to make their hair straight, because "bad hair" within the black community is the natural, nappy kind.
"Colorism" actually has a more complicated history. Preference towards white skin in China and India predated Western influence. In India members of higher castes have lighter skin because they have more Indo-European ancestry. I would argue that this preference and the "whiteness" of Bollywood is thus a part of the legacy of the oppressive caste system.

[black magick hustla]

racial preference in dating is not racist, this is just new left nonsense. you know, the hipster that feels proud for having a black girlfriend.

i prefer people with darker skin, that doesn't makes me racist.

[Bright Banana Beard]

For some unknown reason, I prefer Arabian, Persian, Indian and Native American girl than white or black. I remember a sciencifitic study said that if you find the girl which you love all their feature, you most likely to get successful relationship. If you date girl that you hate all their feature, you most likely to get a failure relationship sooner.

[Neutrino]

I remember a sciencifitic study said that if you find the girl which you love all their feature, you most likely to get successful relationship. If you date girl that you hate all their feature, you most likely to get a failure relationship sooner.

I'd like to see that study...

I wonder why something so obvious required such a study.

[Module]

First let me say that I was said friend in this discussion;

As I said to Proper Tea, sexual attraction is not an equal thing.
Obviously people find some things more attractive than others, and people of different ethnicities obviously don't look the same, so it makes sense that people would find some attractive and others unattractive.


In reply to Yonkers:

Of course this is racism, how is it anything but?

This is actually nothing new; it's a world wide phenomenon for non-white people, that the more "white-looking" you are, you're "attractive" and the darker you are you're "ugly".
Specifically finding 'white' people attractive was an example I used, although I could have used any other.

To say that it is somehow wrongfully discriminatory to find people of certain 'races' attractive is truly ridiculous.
Sexual attraction is based on appearance for the most part, and so obviously discrimination on the basis of appearance will occour. Races are defined by appearance. It's not the same to say somehow one who finds white people more attractive is being racist in that they're treating them as lesser human beings specifically for being of a different race.
Sexual attraction is not an equal thing - it's not about treating somebody as an equal on the basis of race because it has no basis specifically in race.

White people, black people, asian people and so on generally have certain features which are used to define them as a 'race'. I doubt anybody finds anyone attractive simply for being of a certain 'race', so much as they find people attractive because of those certain features.

Given that sexual attraction is based on appearance, a better comparison would be to say that somebody being hired for a job was chosen due to discriminations against others of different intellectual abilities.
Maybe the job requires good management skills, whereas other candidates had good ...organisational skills.. or something... for example.
Does this mean that people with organisational skills were somehow wrongly discriminated against? Maybe they just weren't right for the job.
Likewise,
Everybody has their own preference, their own 'job opening', and their own things they want. This can include skin colour, gender, you name it.
This doesn't mean that everybody is somehow some nasty racist/sexist bigot.


However, your overbearing preference for Asian women is a fetish; you have no reason to hate self.I'm curious as to why preferring Asian women is a "fetish", and therefore they shouldn't "hate self", whereas preferring white women is racist, but normal?
Isn't considering an attraction to Asian women a "fetish" just as racist?
And why exactly should men who are attracted to white women feel self hatred?
There are so many 'ideals' of beauty out there, not just having light skin, as bobkindles mentioned, it's beautiful to be unnaturally thin, and have a body type that hardly anybody does. It's also beautiful to have blonde hair, which hardly anybody does. You're forgetting this.
It's not just non-white women than feel 'self hatred'. Hardly anybody can live up to the ideal image of beauty.

:rolleyes: Nice strawman. Homosexuality isn't sexism.How come? Why is it that having a sexual preference for people of certain ethnicities is 'racist', but have a sexual preference for people of a certain gender isn't 'sexist'?
You disagreed with Jazzratt by saying:

I think we're all in agreement that "race" is a relatively frivolous concept, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't apply in the real world.Like gender doesn't apply to the real world?
Since he didn't seem to mention the frivolousness of the term race, you seem to have missed the point. The use of the term race in terms of sexual attraction, which is based on appearance is to describe the specific features of that 'race'.
It's the same thing as generally stating that you are straight means that you find people who adhere to the opposite gender more attractive than your own. It doesn't mean that you find, if you're a woman, men attractive simply for being men.

[BobKKKindle$]

Light skin was (and still is) considered more precious than some one who was dark.I'd agree with this - I've witnessed it in my own community (Hong Kong) where whitening products are constantly shown on TV and young women are saving up to buy these products because they are ashamed of having darker or "yellow" skin. We should also expect to see a huge increase in demand in China, as more people have the money to buy these products, and as they become more widely available. This will intensify the health problems which can arise from the use of these products, because pharmaceuticals in China are rarely checked by the government before they are allowed to be sold to eager consumers.

However, as I argued in my previous post, "whiteness" is not the totality of womens "beauty" oppression - only one dimension of it that is especially acute for people who are not white. There is also "beauty" oppression which transcends race - the most prominent example being weight - and this is something that is just as bad.

This means that all women feel "self-hatred" - because they can't emulate the ideal of beauty which they are expected to attain.

It is, however, interesting, that even though Asian women are trying to become "whiter" many White women still think that having a tan will make them seem more attractive - and so are using artificial products and going to tanning salons, with similar negative consequences for their health. How would we explain this?



To say that it is somehow wrongfully discriminatory to find people of certain 'races' attractive is truly ridiculous.Agreed. Your emotional and sexual response to another person is beyond your conscious control - I cannot suddenly decide to find men attractive, that's just not the way I am, but that doesn't mean that I am discriminating against men, or those who do find men attractive.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

What "characteristics" exist in a certain race that makes others undesirable? Of course something as trivial as "long hair" isn't racist, because finding short haired women unattractive doesn't have anything to do with skin color and therefore isn't discrimination.
That makes no sense. So you're saying something can only be discrimination if it has something to do with skin colour?

[jake williams]

"Colorism" actually has a more complicated history. Preference towards white skin in China and India predated Western influence. In India members of higher castes have lighter skin because they have more Indo-European ancestry. I would argue that this preference and the "whiteness" of Bollywood is thus a part of the legacy of the oppressive caste system.
There's also a history in the West in the last couple hundred years involving the history of attractiveness of degrees of tanning, mostly for economic reasons. The general idea is that while at first being pale meant you could afford not to go outside, now being tanned means you can afford to go on vacations. Granted, however, this doesn't generally extend to many people with identical skin colour.

[Cubensis]

IMO, this typical preference is created by an institutionally racist capitalist media and society which elevates white feminine beauty above the beauty of other races. It is still not evidence that the person is racist himself.

And you are generalizing the entire issue.

I am a white male strictly attracted to only black females and asians. In fact, I have never dated a white woman (not even kissed!) in my entire 28 years of existence.


Of course this is racism, how is it anything but?

This is actually nothing new; it's a world wide phenomenon for non-white people, that the more "white-looking" you are, you're "attractive" and the darker you are you're "ugly".

Again I ask you: Does this apply to every interracial relationship? Absolutely not. I actually find white women unattractive (read: Ugly).