Fortuyn: "Islam is a backward culture"

[guerrillaradio]

Shortly before his death, Pim Fortuyn declared that "Islam is a backward culture", in a cynical soundbite for the world's press. Now, on face value, this would appear to be racist rhetoric from a far right leader, but when asked to justify this accusation, he replied that he thought that cos they (well many Muslims anyway) believe that homosexuality is morally wrong. Of course, as Fortuyn is gay himself, he feels threatened by this.

Although this is no justification for closing Holland's borders, I think it is actually a good point. Islam is a backward culture, in that it restricts the right of the individual (and, like Fortuyn, is chauvinist). Christianity is also backward, but less so.

I am in no way endorsing any of Fortuyn or his party's policies, I just thought that that was an interesting point. I apologise if there are any factual inaccuracies above.

[yuriandropov]

technically speaking, all religions are backward as the idea of worshipping a being in the sky that you can't see, in the 21st century, to most people would appear backward. i don't think islam was particularly backward. you get fundamentalists like the taliban taking the qoran (mispelled probobly) all out of context. when i was in afghanistan in the early 80's, many of my afghan comrades taught me about islam and such and, as far as religion goes, i think its pretty good actually. very anti-capitalist and does acknowledge other religious fugures like jesus. whereas, to the best of my knowledge, the bible doesn't acknowledge mohammed (it may have been written before mohammed. i don't know much about christianity)

[DaNatural]

yuri the bible was written before the Qu'ran, regardless, like you sad islam is very open while christianity is has its head stuck up its own ass. Guerrilla what do u mean it restricts the individual? the individual has shown that he is incapable of acting in a civilized manner in this society sowhy shouldnt we be restricted?
As for what pim said, according to him its backwards because hes gay. but also because it , in many cases, refuses to modernise. That is not a bad thing but in this society which is run by blood sucking pigs like the deceased, it is backwards. Right wingers criticize becaue it doesnt go along with their vision of exploitatin and rapid industrialization which usually results in disaster in the arab world.

[Fires of History]

DaNatural said, "...the individual has shown that he is incapable of acting in a civilized manner in this society sowhy shouldnt we be restricted?"

Who is to determine what "civilized" means? God? LOL!

[ID2002]

pt1.

"When the US messes in other peoples buisness it will, most times get its nose cut off or broken"

ie. Someone blows up a US military target or someone gets killed!

So the logical course of action would be to leave other countries alone!
----------------------------------------------
pt2.

I too have found Islam to be more tollerant than Christianity in terms of other beliefs. I have many Islamic friends, and I am Buddhist. We all get along just fine. Never had any problems...and I don't expect any either.

(Edited by ID2002 at 7:56 am on May 12, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from DaNatural on 7:06 am on May 12, 2002
Guerrilla what do u mean it restricts the individual? the individual has shown that he is incapable of acting in a civilized manner in this society sowhy shouldnt we be restricted?

Is homosexuality uncivilised??
Is exposing flesh uncivilised??
Is walking with a man other than a relative uncivilised??

I could name millions more but I won't bother as you all see my point I'm sure. And I understand that I am referring to Islam fundamentalists, and that the Quran may not condone their actions, but remember, we're discussing Islamic culture here, of which, fundamentalism is a big part.

[Fires of History]

In much of Islamic culture, there is not a very strong division between religious law and state law, and far too often the laws of the Quran are the law. To me, that is a problem, and is oppressive to the individual. Islamic states in general need a secular revolution. Theocracy can exist on many subtle levels...

[Lardlad95]

Its not Islamic culture. Do muslims here act the same way they do in Suadi Arabia? No. Thats just how they live their lives. Blaming it on Islam is wrong

[Sasafrás]

Culture and state do not relate (hey! That rhymed!).. So, don't say "In much of Islamic culture..." It's actually in much of Islamic nations or states.

Um, in my opinion (and I'm not looking at it from a religious viewpoint, so don't jump on me), religion plays a big part in culture anyway and it always has. Culture deals with the way of life of a given set or group of people and religion definitely is a part of that. But, we must remember that Islam is not always about fundamentalism. I would think that, in reality, most Muslims (In the Arab world) would not prefer to be ruled in the manner under which they are. Also, a culture (by definition) can't be restrictive even though religion plays a role in it). A religion itself, however, could be - but only if one allows it to be...


And, yuri, the Quran may accept Jesus Christ (though not as the Messiah), but it also basically says that those who practice other religions (Pagan religions in particular) are wrong & are not blessed or something like that. I read it myself in a Quran that was sent by a Muslim woman to another woman I know. I'd have to recheck it to get it perfect though..

[Fires of History]

La Rainbeaux,

So you don't think Islamic states are influenced too much by Islam?

Keep in mind, even you said "Islamic nations or states." The fact that someone can even say "Islamic states" is sorta my point. Sorta like saying Christian states eh?

Religion and politics don't mix, period.

[libereco]

i don't like islam nor christianity.

Yet I don't think Islam is much worse than christianity or anyhing. The difference that we're experiencing is based on the fact that at the moment the christian-western nations are more enlightened than the most islamic nations. But if you talk to more enlightened muslims you'll notice that they aren't gay-bashing wife-beaters either.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Fires of History on 8:11 pm on May 13, 2002
La Rainbeaux,

So you don't think Islamic states are influenced too much by Islam?

Keep in mind, even you said "Islamic nations or states." The fact that someone can even say "Islamic states" is sorta my point. Sorta like saying Christian states eh?

Religion and politics don't mix, period.
Oh, no, Fires, I mean that you shouldn't say that there's not a big difference between religious law & state law in Islamic culture. (In much of Islamic culture, there is not a very strong division between religious law and state law...) Islamic culture, like Lard pointed out, exists in the US, in France, & in Britain, but the culture (or religion, in this case, I guess) has nothing to do with the law there because their culture is not dominant, you know what I mean? Yes, indeed, in 'Islamic states,' Islam is the greatest influence (primarily since the religion dominates the peoples' beliefs).

I do see what you mean though.

~ Shayla

PS: I really like the way you present points. I respect you for that.

And you said 'eh' like all Canadians! :biggrin:

[Fires of History]

I was more getting at Islamic culture within Islamic states, where the line between religious law and state law is virtually non-existent. I was not really refering to Islamic culture outside of Islamic states.

Also, in Islamic states, do you see a distinction between culture and religion? Or do you see them more as the same thing?

P.S. Ditto to you, and yes, I guess I have finally picked up the 'eh.' :)

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Fires of History on 8:31 pm on May 13, 2002
Also, in Islamic states, do you see a distinction between culture and religion?Barely. Well, for the most part. I mean, there are non-Muslims in certain Islamic states so they have a different culture, but overall, the culture & religion practically are completely intertwined.

[DaNatural]

Fires I did not say God is the one who designates what civilized is. But if you actually read anything the Qu'ran lays out morals in almost all of it's passages. Civilized means being respectful, being a good person in general, etc.
GuerrilaRadio to answer your questions, yes i think ho mosexuality is uncivilized because the purpose of intercourse is to reproduce and with two men you obviously cant do that. Second, I Don't agree with totally covering a woman, however, i do think a woman shouldnt reveal herself the way many do in western societies. We treat look at women like objects, sexual objects, and that creates alot of problems in our society. It reinforces gender roles which women have been trying to break for years. When a woman is covered she commands more respect. Also don't assume that fundamentalism plays a big role in all arab states. There are organizations however, the whole population is not consumed by its teachings.

Finally Fires of History you said that there isnt a division between religious law and state law and that basically the law that governs is the law of the Qu'ran. You apparently have a problem with this. The only country to my understanding that operated under Shariah law(Qu'ran law) was Afghanistan. In some areas in Nigeria it is being used but not the whole country. I don't believe Saudi Arabia does but I could be wrong. In 1970 Ayatollah Khomeni wrote a book on how to govern an Islamic state and much of it had to do with the Shariah, however, don't falsely state that Islamic societies all operate under this law. In the time of the Prophet society was run by Shariah and there were no problems, of course there were but it was not a tyranical society. There was religious tolerance, his wives didn't wear a veil, etc.
This is where the change come in, today's Fundamentalists are adamantly opposed to anythng non-Islamic and promote everythingfrom the Qu'ran/time of the Prophet, in today's world. THeir problem is that they dont know how to adjust there theory to today's world. If the Sharia was properly applied, similarly to how Ayatollah did, a vibrant society could exist.
Next time use accurate facts and explain why its a bad thing, such as explaining why it would be oppressive. Because it appears that you dont have a reason and feel the way you do based on your own biased, uninformed opinion.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from DaNatural on 6:47 am on May 14, 2002
i think ho mosexuality is uncivilized because the purpose of intercourse is to reproduce and with two men you obviously cant do that.

Grate, I'm talking to a homphobe. Forget it then, I have no time for bigots...

Lardlad/FoH/Rainbeaux - so the repressive laws in predominantly Muslim countries are not as a direct result of Islam or Muslims?? Really?? The Taliban, for instance, (I realise I'm opening a can of worms, but that's kinda the idea) implemented the burqa and bans on televisions etc etc (you read the papers, you know their laws) because of fundamentalist Islam, surely??

[Anarcho]

Quote: from DaNatural on 6:47 am on May 14, 2002
yes i think ho mosexuality is uncivilized because the purpose of intercourse is to reproduce and with two men you obviously cant do that



So, everytime you have sex with your girlfriend/wife, you're hoping to get pregnant? Because that's the belief that you're instilling.

I for one don't. So I suppose that makes me just as immoral as a homosexual.... unless you care to explain to me how it's different.

Because if it is, I don't see how. And if it's not, and you've had sex without trying to have a baby, you're no better.

[Lurker021]

Anarcho makes a good point. Rather then call homosexuality uncivilized why not just state that it is counter productive? As for the Taliban they taught a perversion of Islam, and as it is, Afganistan will be no better without them only due to the fact that Warlord's are now running the country like in Somalia.

(Edited by Lurker021 at 1:56 pm on May 14, 2002)

[anti machine]

I find this prompt exceptionally interesting. I am a Muslim myself, and I find myself questioning how my Islamic brothers in the Eastern world can call themselves Muslims while running the rigid, un-Biblical states that they do. They give Islam a bad name world wide. Now when someone hears the word "muslim", an image of Arab man wearing a turban and gunning down an "improperly dressed" woman unfortunately comes to mind. It just goes to show that any capitalist country where the poor outnumber the elite will yeild inevitable corruption. When religion is taken fundamentally and oppressive restrictions and laws are implemented, a corrupt state will be rendered. However, most muslims do not choose to associate themselves with the "Islamic world".

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from anti machine on 12:03 am on May 15, 2002
It just goes to show that any capitalist country where the poor outnumber the elite will yeild inevitable corruption.

So how come this kinda repression seems to happen a lot in predominantly Muslim countries?? Are you saying that there's no link between Islam and the laws in these states??

[Zippy]

Quote: from DaNatural on 6:47 am on May 14, 2002
... I Don't agree with totally covering a woman, however, i do think a woman shouldnt reveal herself ...
I feel we are dealing with a mad man.

Zippy.

[Ruz Aydin]

You can not say Islam is a backward religion by seeing Islamic countries.Especially Suudi Arabia or Afghanistan.Usame bin Laden or others are fundamentalist people using Koran(religious book of muslims) for their personal actions.

In fact Koran is the most scientifically based religious book.Many people including Cat Stevens changed his religion to Islam by reading Koran.You should read it once in a time and I strongly recommend you to read Mohammads last speech.You can see how our modern human rights, commercial rights or people relations are based on it.

Do not forget when the Europe was living his darkest years in Middle ages, Islamic countries were the center of science and philosophy.

AND ITS VERY ANTI-CAPITALIST!