Hey look at me i'm a lefty and i live in USA

[Guest]

look yall
u little lenin's angels are pathetic
hey look at me i really believe in socialism and hate all cappies
but! i live in NY, i live in an apartment
i wear abercrombie
i use the public transportation to travel
i like to watch football games
baseball too
yeah the New york knicks
i pay the "big bad" corporations for all my neccessities of daily life to sustain my fragile human body
but of course i am a lefty
and i do hate cappies

isn't that funny?

[CheGuevara]

Yes, absolutely, we can't live how we want at this moment, so we should kill ourselves. Hari Kari! AAAAAAAAAA!

No, seriously. The trick is for us to live strengthening the capitalists as little as possible without living like paupers, until the revolution. Capitalism is slavery where you get to choose your masters, for both the worker and the consumer. More so for the worker, because one needs to work, but one doesn't NEED ALL the products that are sold in capitalism, although many are very unpleasant without which to live. No, I doubt very many, if any people on this forum wear Abercrombie. I sure as fuck don't.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 7:12 am on May 10, 2002)


(Edited by CheGuevara at 7:13 am on May 10, 2002)

[Maaja]

Hi guest,

Actually I don't find your comment very... sensible. I didn't get the point... maybe it's me, maybe it's you.

[Hayduke]

Dear Guest,

We might live in a capitalist country at the moment
and so are many commies but would it really help to

trowh out your t.v ( yeh that would teach those cappies )
Dont eat any food from big companies ( yeh that would teach those fuckers...... )

Ect,ect.

Next time you try to out talk commies come with something good not this shit.

[sabre]

well you are a big hypocrite guest

[Capitalist Imperial]

News flash,pinkos, the vast, vast majority of Americans are capitalists, and are happy as capitalists, THERE WILL BE NO REVOLUTION. The revolution that occured 200 years ago was fought to escape oppressive regimes like communist nations that tell you where you will work, live, and play, and take away basic liberties like the right to vote for your representatives and speak out against the government. Don't any of you understand??? Socialism looks good on paper, but can never be applied inn reality.The world is not moving toward socialism, its moving towards free market capitalism, because thats what the majority really wants. Thats why america is the worlds most powerful country, with the highest gdp by far, and we like it. If you were a true socialist, you would move to an existing socialist country already. Its cliche, but true, and thats the bottom line.

[samaniego]

IMPERIAL, A majority of Americans maybe cappies but not by choice, nor are they happy, and as for voting, do you think there really is an option on who to vote for, why do you think so many americans dont vote, because they always have to choose from the same morons. And as for where people work maybe you, in your middle class life had a choice but again for the rest of america they work where they can, so dont give me your land of the free crap, because it's far from it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

where are you from samaniego, because unlike communism, where they tell you where to work, in The USA if you work hard, you can do anything you want, i don't know who you are talking about whern yoiu say people work "where they can", but in the USA, if you work hard in school and get a good education, you can do anything you want. Those who complain are usyually just lazy and looking for a hand out, no where in the world is there such opportunity to excel and be succesful as in the USA, and everyone pretty much gets an equal chance, so where do you get your logic from?

[CheGuevara]

You're a real dumbass. No, the majority of Americans are not capitalists. Yes, probably, the majority of Americans are capitalist tools and sympathizers, but not actually capitalists. Generally you have to own the means of production and make a profit from other people's labor in order to be a capitalist.

A lot of schools, in fact, I'll say most schools, suck. Of course, if you have enough money, you can go to a diploma mill private school or the like.

[samaniego]

That "work hard and you can be anything" is a cloak of deception, to give the illusion that you can become (successful). And to add success to you I assume is money. So to me not very many people have success.
The education system is a sham as well, they dont teach you to think, college does that and how many americans have a college degree? Imperial do you think people actually dont want to succeed? Do you think we like poverty? So again I fail to see what country you live in. Because in mine I am opressed, and the american dream is far from reality.

[Capitalist Imperial]

You commies as usual use personal attacks more than logic to make your point. If communism is so great, then why do people risk their lives just to get into our borders? I don't remember anyone trying to break into russia to live, please, if you are americans, you obviously are lazy and look ing for the government to create your destiny. I'm glad that most americans aren't like you, or we wouldn't be the most powerful country on earth, get your facts strait, and stop waiting for the goverment to take care of you. And by the way, "your a dumbass" shows how smart you are, because you argue with personal attacks, not logic, thats the hallmark of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. If your an american, you probalbly dropped uto of school and are now bitter because you didn't earn the right to a decent job and income

[Capitalist Imperial]

by the way, capitalist "workers" still live better that communist "workers" we don't have to wait in line 4 hours for a loaf of bread, we live great, oh, by the way, this "capitalist country" has given the world: electricity, affordable automibiles, the locomotive, the television, the light bulb, the radio, the computer, and the internet, and the airplane, just to name a few, what inventions have communist countries given? not much, because communism provides no incentive for invention or innovation, thats obvious if you look at history, thats why the world is turning capitalist, and not communist, communism looks good on paper, but always fails in reality, thats why we won the cold war, and have the greatest gdp on earth

[SU37]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:53 pm on May 10, 2002
get your facts straity
You spelled "straight" wrong.Also your stole that quote from me.I use to say that in some of my posts back in April.Think up something orginal and stop copying my quotes.

[Capitalist Imperial]

LOL shut up su37, you're an imbecile, I am a college grad, and if i spell wrong or use bad grammar its cause I am typing fast and am too lazy to correct my spelling or small grammatical errors, where are you from, anyway???

[SU37]

I from America.The home of fat cats and pigs.I love to see burning American flags

[RGacky3]

Imperial. during the 20s-40s thousands of americans moved to Russia to escape the deppression. almost all of the people who come from cuba the the US are former rich capitalists who could not exploit in cuba any more so they came to the U$. Anouther thing, you can't base communism on the USSR, that would be like basing capitalism on Brazil. any way the Russians got to space before us and they made a space station before us, so shut up and DIE.any way Imperial you are stupid and ignorent go hang your self

[SU37]

IC gets on my nerves too much.


(Edited by SU37 at 12:51 am on May 11, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

college grad, hmmm.... I thought u were 12.
You are only right about one thing, there will be no revolution, other than that you appear to be either unintelligent or misinformed. Not all communists wait in line for hours for bread. This is the typical nonsense you hear from high school students who have learned nothing more about communism than Russia. This was also in fact before Communism when Nicholas II was king. why do you think that they had their revolution?
Second, all these"great" inventions were invented by the capitalists because of funding which does not exist in communism. SO WHAT!! do you really need these inventions to live a happy life? I use and appreciate them, however I'm not going to kill myself if they cease to exist. Another thing, those who fled from communist countries are fleeing from the evil didtatorships, not the communist economy. Communism doesn't nescesarilly have to have an evil dictatorship. And please do not tell us that use personal emotions instead of facts as arguments, WE DON'T. communism is also not the reason that we won the cold war. Come on. If you're a colledge graduate, even you should have the intelligence to know that we never won any war. the soviet union simply broke up before they could blow our asses off the face of the earth. Now if you want to argue that the soviet union broke up because of communism, then that is a different story. Please don't tell me that communism is why we "won" the cold war though. This is a mistake. And please do not assume that we are all high school drop-outs because we are not that either. I have respect for you and your beliefs.
you seem like an intellectual person. Why won't you have any respect for our beliefs? If you don't think that communism works, that's fine. Just don't go prancing all over the site, telling us that we're stupid and have no thought process.

[Angie]

Capitalist Imperialist,

* I am young and female
* I was brought up in working class family
* I have a double-degree in Psychology and Sociology and have another one in the works, this time focusing upon International Development and Engineering;
* My 'hobbies' include Astrophysics
* I can fly a plane
* I'm trained militarily
* I have a decent job
* I have a decent wage
* I speak 5 languages
* I know twice as many politically influential people than you have fingers and toes
* I'm engaged to a Diplomat's son

...

* I am a Socialist
* I live in a normal flat in a normal suburb
* I am Australian, not American
* I volunteer the bulk of my time for International Development organisations
* I give the bulk of my money to non-profit organisations
* I attend protests pushing for the rights of the poverty class
* I encourage people to sponsor children in Third World nations
* I believe that the Socialist way of life is better than any Capitalist way of life
* I consider it an honour to transform the lives of everyday people into lives of dignity and honour. Not cashflows and stockmarkets.
* I would happily give up every single bit of Capitalist influence upon my life TOMORROW if I knew that the millions of poverty-stricken people could rise above it with me. But they will not. Not yet. And so I will not stop milking the Capitalist's money to pay for the Socialist's framework.
* My life has never had so much meaning as it does now.
* In the words of Leon Trotsky: "As long as I breathe, I shall fight for the future, that radiant future in which man(kind), strong and beautiful, will become master of the drifting stream of his history and will direct it towards the boundless horizon of beauty, joy and happiness!..."
*I am relentless. I will not give up.

...

Do NOT tell me that America is the land of opportunity.
I've quite possibly accomplished more than you ever will, and I did it in another country. There are people in my nation who continue to suffer day after day, and each day I help them in the best way that I can.

In many ways, my nation is better than yours will EVER be, and we're not near the top of the "Best Countries of the World" list.

Everything that I do is for what I refer to as the "global good". I do not aim for such a high level of education so that I can earn a shitload of money and splurge it all on myself and those immediately around me. No. I put the bulk of it back into society where society needs it the most. I milk the Capitalist system to fuel the Socialist system.

Socialism is much, much more than just about being poverty stricken and going nowhere. We Socialists are everywhere. In every area. In every town. In every nation. And the revolution is being built, from the ground up. Watch your step.

[Angie]

MORAL OF THE STORY:

Some Socialists can do well if they work hard enough, agreed, I am living proof of that, but it does not mean that we can ALL do well.

Were we all able to do well, I would not need to fight so much as I do. I see the struggle every day, I have learnt that sometimes if we can break out of the bonds, we are just lucky. But most of us are not fortunate enough to have done so. That doesn't mean we don't try hard enough. It means that life is tough.

I was fortunate, my situation is rare and unique. All the more reason why I should fight harder. Do NOT use my case to show that all Socialists can succeed, because it simply is not true.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:53 am on May 11, 2002
You commies as usual use personal attacks more than logic to make your point. If communism is so great, then why do people risk their lives just to get into our borders? I don't remember anyone trying to break into russia to live, please, if you are americans, you obviously are lazy and look ing for the government to create your destiny. I'm glad that most americans aren't like you, or we wouldn't be the most powerful country on earth, get your facts strait, and stop waiting for the goverment to take care of you. And by the way, "your a dumbass" shows how smart you are, because you argue with personal attacks, not logic, thats the hallmark of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. If your an american, you probalbly dropped uto of school and are now bitter because you didn't earn the right to a decent job and income


No he just said dumbass because of those dumb arguments your making. But if you want to see it as a fact so you can come up with more of your " own " facts then please go ahead.

If America is the land were you can work you way up too the top, then why are there so many homeless, non working people ?
You want to say that all of these people are lazy.
How about black people ? You think they get a fair change in your beatifull system ? Think again.
Mexican people ? Same story.

Maybe in your history book there's standing " capitalism gives everybody a fair change to get rich but people that fail are lazy "
but I hope your eyes can see further then that.

Your system doesnt gives everbody a fair change, its all about making money and have to do anything to survive. If they don't
they will be sleeping in central park or something.

Communism doesnt even give anybody a fair change, but they dont even have to survive the system.

D-Day

[Fires of History]

Angie,

Just a quick post to say- right on, and keep up the fight! I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Great thoughts, great ideas, and great point that not everyone who has more than five dollars to their name "loves" capitali$m.

Capitali$t Schmuck,

Yeah, GDP is everything isn't it? Are you naive enough to believe that the U$ will forever be the leader in GDP? lol....

[samaniego]

Imperial, I see your the one with the personl attacks here not me. You say I dropped out of school and I am bitter because I didnt earn the right to a good job, Wait Im an american dont I have that right? Or are you sayng that only some can have it? If you dont like what you read dont go crying and post that we make personal attacks on you, argue whats on the board.
By the way Im still in college and I work so, what hand out am I looking for? But dont assume we all can be what we want, because we go to school, dont be so narrow minded, there are many other obstacles in life, that we as opressed people face, that you, I assume are oblivious to.

[Guest]

Man in red suit, the soviets were lucky we didn't blow them of the face of the earth, because we were much more capable and our weapons were much more effective than theirs, so I don't know what you're talking about

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Guest on 1:31 am on May 12, 2002
Man in red suit, the soviets were lucky we didn't blow them of the face of the earth, because we were much more capable and our weapons were much more effective than theirs, so I don't know what you're talking about

Oh, then why was the U$ so paranoid throughout the Cold War then if Russian weapons were so less effective?

[Guest]

actually, we would have detroyed each other and the rest of the world, but you commies are idiots, and angie is a liar, shes probably about 12 "im engaged to a diplomats son" oh, wow!!! you're such a renaissance woman, you're just a bnch of kids trying to be different, if you actually lived in a socialist regime, you'd change your attitude really quick, cliche, but true. If you were true socialists, you would have moved to a socialist country by now, hypocrits, oh, by the way, australia kisses U. S. ass every day, australia, ha!!! LOL, LOL you're lucky tou have US protection

[Fires of History]

Funny how you jumped from your original point to an insulting rant.

(Edited by Fires of History at 1:46 am on May 12, 2002)

[Guest]

i try to stick to logic, but if i am insulted i must insult back. It just seems like such a cop-out to hear how andie "bleeds the capitalist system to support socialism" economic law dictates that capitalism willl only benefit from an attempt such as that anyway, i'm sure both the US and USSR were paranoid of each other during the cold war, however, in the 90's our scientists wentt to russia to inspect some of their weapons silos and launchers, and found that many of them were in dissaray and disrepair, not maintained well at all, and their targeting systems were inferior to ours. Thats why china stole some of our targeting software. it would have been easier to just buy russias, but ours is much better you can research this yourself. The question still stands, though, how many of you "communists" or "socialists" actually live in communist and socialist nations? and if you don't, when do you plan to move there?

[samaniego]

Friends it appears the cappies have lost this one. So now they retreat to their rhetorical tactics. Chalk one up for the COMMIE'S

[CheGuevara]

As much as we would like to live in a socialist society, we feel it's important to bring socialism to all of the people of the world and not just ourselves.

[Guest]

Samaniego, i fail to see how "the commies" won anything on this post, but if you feel you did, thats fine, communists need at least one victory to compensate for their thousands of failures, so we'll throw you a bone. And Che, I don't know who you are bringing socialism to, because aside from the other leftists on this site, no one is really interested in your commie ideas, thats why the worlds emerging markets are capitalist, not socialist, the world is turning democratic, not socialist, so wake up, and if you truly would "love to live in a socialist society", you would, and thats the bottom line, but you don't, because i don't think most of the people on this site know what it is like to live in a communist or socialist country, and if you did you'd probably change your attitude about it, and if you think i'll believe that you were born in a free-market capitalist nation and became socialist at some point and you are just sticking around to "bring socialism to others", you're wrong, and "fires of history", if you know of a country that has a GDP even close to the U.S., or will have in the future, let me know. I think you're mostly liberal art-students or something that are leftist because you think its different/cool, and you really have little appreciation for the way you have it right now, or are just dissatisfied with your lot in life. Get real, communism looks great on paper, but never woirks in reality, and that IS reality.

[man in the red suit]

guest u are wrong,
I was born in America and I became socialist,
and it is a mistake to call che a commie because he was not, he was a socialist. As far as failures go, I see none asides from Russia. You are also pretty ignorant if you believe that socialism is the opposite of democracy because they are in fact 2 completely different things. Democracy is government and socialism is economics. You should say the world is becoming capitalist not democratic. Most socialist countries are democratic. Norway is even better than the united states. There are many democratic socialist parties. Have you not heard of democratic socialism? we are also not all living in America because we want to either. Has it not occurred to you that we are planning to m ove out of this country when we are older. Of course we wont convince others to become socialist. They have already been brainwashed by capitalist propaganda in public schools because of the containment policy. It is because of America that communism is being wiped out. It is because America is too imperialistic to let other countries have their own way. America even saw communism as a threat. This must surely tell you that someone liked it. You are free to argue with us as long as you get educated first. We are not here to brainwash you into becoming a commie. You and your burgeois friends are most likely, too stupid too see that socialism can do good things for people. We simply want to talk because we share common interests in politics and economic systems. If you don't agree with us, fuck off. Nobody is forcing you to be here!!!!!!!!

(Edited by man in the red suit at 5:40 am on May 12, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

It's not true that no one else is interested. However, many people in America are not interested because they have been brainwashed by the education system and the media.

[Greadius]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 5:38 am on May 12, 2002 As far as failures go, I see none asides from Russia. I suppose your definition of failure is important. If you consider police states, mass starvation, suppression of political dissent, execution for political and petty crimes, and exedus of a frightened population a success, you could place China, Cambodia, and Cuba at the top of that list :biggrin:


You should say the world is becoming capitalist not democratic. Most socialist countries are democratic. They are more hybrids... they rely on the capitalist half to create wealth, the socialist half to 'redistribute' it, their economy stagnates, unemployment rises and they scratch their collective heads.

Norway is even better than the united states. If Norway allowed immigration, you could move there.
I'd adopt Norway's form of socialism if we can adopt their oil reserves as well... because if we were sitting on the highest per capita oil reserves on the world, we could afford a lot more public spending too. Norway is in my opinion a good example of a nation that allowed the market instead of a dictatorship manage their natural resources...
Of course, Norway is better than the United States by what standard? Don't use the UN as a 'source' for their development index. They use public per capita expenditures (a socialist feature) as a measure of a countries 'goodness'. That is, there is actually a built in socialist degree factor when the UN decides how good a country is. There is probably a lack of objective sources, so I'd have to say preferance determines the 'better' side.


Of course we wont convince others to become socialist. They have already been brainwashed by capitalist propaganda in public schools because of the containment policy. It is because of America that communism is being wiped out. Communism here has never really existed. They still run candidates and get less than .01% of the vote. There is no propoganda in the concievable universe that is THAT effective.
I think the problem is that you're blaming everything except the idea itself for Communisms failure. Communism doesn't work: blame America, blame propoganda, blame educational systesms... whichever suites your fancy, Communism STILL won't work :biggrin:


You and your burgeois friends are most likely, too stupid too see that socialism can do good things for people. We simply want to talk because we share common interests in politics and economic systems. If you don't agree with us, fuck off. Nobody is forcing you to be here!!!!!!!! I thought this was the forum opened to us worker-oppressing, peasant-trampling Capitalists could debate with you.
I was perusing this forum for a few moments; I was literally shocked by the number of times there has been cries to silence opposing debate. Why is silencing opposing viewpoints such an important tenant of Communism?

------------------------------------------------------
This board's quotation system doesn't work like the one's I'm familiar with. Is there anyway to get it to accept multiple quotes?

(Edited by Greadius at 9:44 am on May 12, 2002)

[Angie]

Guest 216.203.235.23
angie is a liar, shes probably about 12 "im engaged to a diplomats son" oh, wow!!! you're such a renaissance woman, you're just a bnch of kids trying to be different, if you actually lived in a socialist regime, you'd change your attitude really quick, cliche, but true. If you were true socialists, you would have moved to a socialist country by now, hypocrits, oh, by the way, australia kisses U. S. ass every day, australia, ha!!! LOL, LOL you're lucky tou have US protection'Guest 216.203.235.23' here has shown us all how riled Capitalists tend to resort to coming across as schizophrenic children, jumping back and forth between tangents like someone coming down off a drug high. Totally lacking in all rational logic and common sense, they blow their own reasoning out of the water and leave only a pool of humiliation for themselves to paddle around in.

As much as I'd love to say that I was 12, I cannot, for the simple reason that my Birth Certificate quite clearly disagrees. Guest, and their almost illegible grammatical skills, not forgetting their immature habit of having a temper tantrum, and flying off the handle for having read a post that wasn't even directed towards them in the first place, does tend to lean to their own childishness.

Yes, indeed I am engaged to a diplomat's son. Did I do it for the 'prestige'? The 'money'? No, of course not. [Not to mention the fact that just because the diplomat has money, doesn't mean his son automatically does.] I'm marrying him, because he stepped out of the square. He broke the mould of his own upbringing without losing the respect of his family, and found the unconditional heart within himself and applied it to Socialism and helping others. And found me in the process. And for the record? His father adores me, we get along like a house on fire, and bounce political ideas off each other all the time, hence I learn much of my information before it hits the newsstands this way, and appreciate it greatly.

Renaissance woman? Yes, perhaps. But, as is human nature, one tends to gravitate towards their own people. I find Renaissance people to be the most exciting people to make friends out of. I find that people who are fighting for the Socialist way are quite often Renaissance by nature as we understand the need to understand, to teach, to learn, to fight, to live, and sometimes - even to die. Socialists in Capitalist societies make a habit of being multi-skilled. They overcome the normal confines of society so that when the time comes for the walls to crumble they will remain standing, heads held high. They learn how to infiltrate society in just the right places. They learn how to disappear into the sheep of modern day like espionage sleepers, waiting for the signal to move into the next stage of activity. Socialists are amazing people with a vision and plan of a world where the health, welfare and happiness of the everyday people are more important than the money that goes into the pockets of Capitalists. Those of us who spend our lives fighting for our causes are indeed Renaissance people.

You, 'Guest 216.203.235.23', are an example of a person who thinks more about money than your fellow mankind. Well, permit me to remind you of something: Your money thinks nothing about you. Were a large roll of your own money to burn up in front of you, against your wishes, you would no doubt be angry, frustrated. Were you to burn up in front of your money, it wouldn't feel the slightest of loss. Money does not feel. Money doesn't need you, you project the characteristics of a leech, eternally searching for that extra litre of blood to satisfy a thirst that will never be satisfied.

In your need to be 'economically and financially independent', yourself and your society will move further into it's own form of chaotic isolationism, where man does not care for his brother, where you may watch your house burn down and later have to beg your insurance company for a mere pittance of what you put into it. Where your neighbours will not help you in recovering your life, where frankly, they most likely just don't care about whether you live or die in the first place. Where you have to give thousands of dollars to strangers to guarantee that your body is 'respectfully' buried in a plot of land amongst strangers, and your will is an open market to possibly greedy relatives who may physically fight each other for what was once yours, not for the memories, but because such things are "valuable." Memories are within your mind, not within material possessions, yet people will kill for such possessions. A lovely legacy, indeed, you must be so proud of the society in which you are possibly to bring children into. A society which will attempt to steal from them, too, just as it steals from you daily. I don't know about you, but I personally don't like the idea of my children being taking such advantage of. I don't like them being stolen from. I have a very strong mothering instinct, and I am brutal when I feel injustice has been done.

But you see, the issue is this: I COULD just turn around and say, "I've had enough of Capitalist society", and leave it for somewhere more Socialist. I certainly could. But now is not the time for that to happen. Why? Because if I left now, I would only be thinking for and of myself, and that is not what a Socialist is about. So I think about others. And I wish to bring them out of their oppression, also. So, instead of being the frightened soldier who fires for long periods of time, wasting their ill-aimed bursts of ammunion at an unseen enemy they're too afraid to get too near to, then retreats when things get too rough - I stand my ground, and I continue to fight. I conserve my ammunition by moving in as close as I can, and firing only when I have a target locked in my sights, unable to escape. I will not retreat, I will not give up, I am relentless. When they fall, I will take their weaponry and ammunition, and I will use it against them, hence the 'milking'.

That is the reason why we won't move to Socialist nations yet. There is still far too much work to be done on the oppressive nations that exist today. For the sake of mankind, we cannot and will not give up on people, even if they choose to give up on each other, and sometimes even themselves.

As history has shown, the United States government has proven itself as an aggressor in just about every conflict that it has gotten itself involved in. That said, it's pretty fair to say that it's enemies are only it's enemies because it chooses them to be so, because they are different: Whether they be Islamic, Socialist, or whatever reason is used. That it's foreign policy is so blindingly offensive towards other, 'lesser' nations, that they in turn get their back up over anything that America's allies try to do within their nations. Which brings me to my point - Australia is only an enemy of such nations due to being just another Western nation and thus automatically linked to America. Were we to sever our ties with America, and I certainly hope that one day soon we do sever them, then all those enemies will drop away as we are no longer a threat to them. That we can peacefully co-exist, there being no aggressor in either side. We would quite simply no longer NEED U.S 'protection', as it would not be necessary. Anyone who actually believes that what America does is good and just and beneficial for all of mankind is joking themselves and severely needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Living in a daydream is fun for awhile, sure, but when you cannot be free unless it's 'free' by American shallow standards, and you wake up and realise such a situation, it's no longer fun.

And then you, like all other Socialists, would want to fight the system. In the meantime, by all means, you're entitled to your personal opinion - if you want to live the life of a brainwashed sheep who truly believes that they are 'free', go right ahead. Personally, I believe that there's a better life out there; yes that's right - better than the one you feel you're currently living - but you'll never reach it unless you break the chains.


samaniego says:
Friends it appears the cappies have lost this one. So now they retreat to their rhetorical tactics. Chalk one up for the COMMIE'S
It certainly appears that way, doesn't it. Thanks for your contributions to this forum, btw. :)

[El Che]

I must say, Angie is a delight to read!

Indeed, well done.

[Greadius]

Because I am computer illiterate and can’t figure out how to do multiple quotes in the same post, I’m just going to use “ “’s around Angie’s statements. You’ve read them all above, I just need them to keep track of specific ideas as I ramble on :biggrin:

“'Guest 216.203.235.23' here has shown us all how riled Capitalists tend to resort to coming across as schizophrenic children, jumping back and forth between tangents like someone coming down off a drug high. Totally lacking in all rational logic and common sense, they blow their own reasoning out of the water and leave only a pool of humiliation for themselves to paddle around in.”
Does it take rational logic and common sense to insult and generalize people because of their political views?

“I find that people who are fighting for the Socialist way are quite often Renaissance by nature as we understand the need to understand, to teach, to learn, to fight, to live, and sometimes - even to die. Socialists in Capitalist societies make a habit of being multi-skilled.”
Why does a socialists version of the facts turn into ‘teaching’, and a capitalists is ‘brainwashing’?

“They learn how to infiltrate society in just the right places. They learn how to disappear into the sheep of modern day like espionage sleepers, waiting for the signal to move into the next stage of activity.”
Why infiltrate? It implies you’re doing something without you wanting anyone to know… that kind of secretative, subversive political activity seems really out of place in a democracy.
You know your next stage of activity; it is the next election day. Winning over voters is not a guerilla activity. Is there another method than a fairly elected government that you would wish to bring about your utopian dreams?

“Socialists are amazing people with a vision and plan of a world where the health, welfare and happiness of the everyday people are more important than the money that goes into the pockets of Capitalists.” Yes, I believe that can be summarize nicely: ‘A communist is one who has nothing and wants to share it with the world’

“You, 'Guest 216.203.235.23', are an example of a person who thinks more about money than your fellow mankind.”
To be fair, any of us can do a lot more with money than my fellow mankind, and not feel guilty about it.
And why try and attach characteristics to money? Its just money… normal people know this. I’ve never seen a tear shed over the loss of money, but I’ve seen many tears shed over the loss of people. The characteristics you’re projecting seem very out of place.

“In your need to be 'economically and financially independent', yourself and your society will move further into it's own form of chaotic isolationism, where man does not care for his brother, where you may watch your house burn down and later have to beg your insurance company for a mere pittance of what you put into it.”
I don’t think begging would help if you didn’t have proper insurance… I don’t see how we don’t ‘care’ for our brothers; I care very much for them. That is why I wouldn’t think it conscienous to condemn them to a life of perpetual mediocraty that Socialism offers. I understand that standards of living, although dependant on material possessions, are vital the comfort of individuals, and nothing raises standards of living more rapidly than Capitalism. I understand that it is because of our system that the vast majority of Americans live very comfortable and pampered lives compared to the rest of the world, and I understand that it is the continuation of this trend that will lead to everyone having the opportunity to live their lives to the fullest extent.

“A society which will attempt to steal from them, too, just as it steals from you daily. I don't know about you, but I personally don't like the idea of my children being taking such advantage of. I don't like them being stolen from.“ Just to clarify since you’re worried about thievery… that implies that people who own property can’t have it taken away from them; or would that not be stealing? So you’re essential supporting property rights, or you’re talking about another type of thievery?

“That is the reason why we won't move to Socialist nations yet. There is still far too much work to be done on the oppressive nations that exist today.” You and I must have a completely different image of oppression if you think a modern socialist nations will alievate it. I would personally prefer to be underpaid and have the right to complain about it than to be underpaid and told I’m doing it for the greater good and I better be quiet about it.
Exactly what Socialist nation are you considering to make the move to? Perhaps you could be the first person to take a raft from Florida to Cuba :biggrin:

“As history has shown, the United States government has proven itself as an aggressor in just about every conflict that it has gotten itself involved in. That said, it's pretty fair to say that it's enemies are only it's enemies because it chooses them to be so, because they are different: Whether they be Islamic, Socialist, or whatever reason is used.”
Enemies are ‘chosen’ because they conflict with our interests and are defeatable. Since we’re obviously not to keen on our own loss of life, it would be completely contradictory to our own interests to go around looking for a fight…

“Which brings me to my point - Australia is only an enemy of such nations due to being just another Western nation and thus automatically linked to America. Were we to sever our ties with America, and I certainly hope that one day soon we do sever them, then all those enemies will drop away as we are no longer a threat to them. That we can peacefully co-exist, there being no aggressor in either side. We would quite simply no longer NEED U.S 'protection', as it would not be necessary.” If you bury your head far enough in the sand you might believe everyone will be happy too!
That statement seems to stare a few thousand years of human history in the face and call it wrong. Australia has wealth; other nations want wealth. The Australian government understands that 62 years ago it was poised to become the next Japanese target, and that nothing in the world has changed so it won’t necessarily be a target in the future. Those that wish conquest are going to find it, period. It doesn’t matter who you sever ties with, and who you pretend to be friends with.

“Anyone who actually believes that what America does is good and just and beneficial for all of mankind is joking themselves and severely needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Living in a daydream is fun for awhile, sure, but when you cannot be free unless it's 'free' by American shallow standards, and you wake up and realise such a situation, it's no longer fun.”
What America does is supposed to be good for Americans. The rest of the world has their own governments to look out for their interests, they don’t need ours.
American freedom is shallow? This is news to me… of course I suppose I am brainwashed and oppressed, so I can’t see the rigors and wonders of socialist freedom.
Fortunately for me, my father grew up in east Germany, along with most of his side of the family. I can get first hand accounts of their ‘freedom.’ And I live in Florida, where I can get first hand accounts of the ‘freedom’ Cubans are frequently and constantly risking their lives to escape, just like my father did.
Has anyone ever been killed leaving America?

“In the meantime, by all means, you're entitled to your personal opinion - if you want to live the life of a brainwashed sheep who truly believes that they are 'free', go right ahead.“
Few minor issues here… if he is entitled to his own opinion, why has EVERY socialist nation that has existed suppressed political dissent? Why couldn’t he safely express that opinion in socialistis nations, if they are truly free?
And my lack of freedom is massively confusing to me, since I can never recall being told what to do. I suppose the oppression is so effective I don’t even KNOW I’m being oppressed, right?
And for the sheep analogy… isn’t the goal of Communism to force some sort of equality on humans, making them all identical in economic and personal matters. What would be a greater human parrallel to sheep than that?

[Guest]

Greadius, you rule. The commies just do't understand that their system sounds good, looks good on paper, but fails in real world application over and over, so what do theydo? They blame the "evil, oppressive United states", which, as you pointed out, never killed anyone for leaving, but accomdated thousands daily who risk their lives just for an opportunity to live here. And if any system brainwashes, its the communist system, where the government controls the media. Nowhre else on earth is there as much freedom of information as in the United states, absolutely nowhere. I invite anyone posting here to tell me of a country in which information is more free or accessible. The arguement that a capitalist, democratic nation somehow "brainwashes" its population is ludacris at best, because to the contrary, this country is teeming with debate, opposing views, and the free exchange of ideas, in fact it is one of its fundamental characteristics. It is in socialist and communist countries where one is brainwashed and homogenized, due to state-controlledmedia. Of course, most posters here don't realize this, because they've never actually lived in a communist nation, they just talk theoretical. The single stupidest arguement i've heard on this site is that the USA brainwashes its people and controls information. It is absolutely wrong and just ignorant for anyone to believe that.

[Angie]

Greadius

Every single day, literally hundreds of thousands of people die, because they live below the poverty line. The reason why most of them are there? Because their nations' governments care less about them, and more about appeasing the western world, in specifics, America.

If these governments do not support America's foreign interests, the people suffer further due to invasions, embargoes, and various other form of oppression. Their governments are destabilised via coups, though thankfully not all of them fall, such as was the case in Venezuela recently. Plenty, however, do.

These are governments, and nations, which believe in supporting their own people and their own interests above the interests of the United States of America. And so they should - what moral high ground does America feel it has, and why does it feel it should push its ways onto other nations? Why cannot other nations be honoured for their own accomplishments, instead of how much they kiss the arse of America?

Then, we have the millions of people go to work daily in inhumane workplaces across the globe, commonly referred to as sweatshops. These people are paid bottom dollar wages, and are damned lucky if they receive anything else - superannuation is most likely unheard of. So are Christmas bonuses. Pay rises. Nothing but the basic wage.

They don't work in the companies because they support it's ethics. They work in the companies because there's little else available to them. Their countries are Third World, and struggling. The companies taking advantage of them are large international conglomerates who don't give a crap about their workers' welfare. Just that the work gets done, and done on time, because of course, the Western world's shopping centres MUST have their Nikes. God forbid we be without such things in this world.

The loss of a worker is not a traumatic experience to such conglomerates. It is merely a temporary inconvenience until the next poor savage can move into the position, then work can continue at peak capacity once more.

The companies aren't doing them much of a favour by taking them on. In fact, they're more likely to be digging their workers an early grave by providing less than humane work conditions and expecting more out of their workers than they should.

Of course the mainstream media doesn't report the number of deaths that happen...

Here's a little story about Western World poverty:

A worker heads off to work in the early hours of the morning. He works in a factory in a large, modern city of the Western World. He knows that there's a law somewhere that states he should only have to work 8 hours a day, but here in the factory? It's 10 hours a day, sometimes 12. And only a couple of breaks throughout the day. No overtime wage.

At the end of the week, the man looks at his wage slip. It claims that the money entered into his account has gone through, as expected. The slip states how much money he earnt every hour, and how much of that money came out in taxes. Clearly there must have been something wrong. So much tax, so little money to start with. The man wonders what happened to his money - he worked so hard all day long, right? He loosely calculates how much he produced, and how much it should all come to in complete production costs.

He feels he has been severely short-changed.

Walking out to the carpark, the man spies his boss off in the distance, in his smart suit and fancy shoes, his leather briefcase, and Mercedes Benz. The man looks down at his own gear, some dirty overalls and a ripped backpack. He heads towards his old, rusty car and notices that one of the tires' tread is rather warn and thinks it unroadworthy. He wonders how he's going to find the money to pay for a new tire? It takes him 5 attempts to get the car started properly. A new car would be nice.

Arriving home, he spies his wife in the kitchen, through the window. She, too, has worked long hours as a cleaner in another company, and now she's still working, this time slaving away in the kitchen. Two of their three children are sitting at the kitchen table, doing their homework because there's little space anywhere else in the house where they can stretch out their books under a decent light. Entering through the front door, the man glances at the paint flaking off the walls, and sighs, knowing he cannot possibly afford to repaint.

Dinner is a small affair - a tiny bit of meat, and a couple of different vegetables. Most of the food is given to the children, as they must grow up as strong and healthy as possible. Children always come first. After dinner, the couple sits at the table while the children play with the two raggedy toys they've had for as long as they can remember. No new toys this year, sorry. Sifting through bills, the couple designate portions of their wages to paying off their bills, paying off the rent of their low-rent Commission Unit. At the end, they've not enough for the weekly food. The wife promises that the following evening she will head down to the local Community Centre straight after work and pick up whatever she can from the Direct Aid. She'll see if they have any coupons for bread, too.

The husband looks at his family and thinks that there's got to be a better way. He considers the option of getting a loan from the bank, then remembers that he was refused last time because the bank thought he was too "high-risk", that he wouldn't be able to repay the installments. He considers the option of getting a new job, and looks through the local paper at positions which his skills might be appropriate for. All positions are asking for experience which he has not got, his coming from an older generation where expectations were different, he's not a young man anymore. Jobs were surprisingly easier to find back then. He considers going to College and getting an education, only to find that the College fees are way too high for him to be able to manage. Unemployment benefits are an option he's not considering - he thinks that any job is better than no job. Again he sighs, resolving to go back to work on Monday, maybe things will feel different then.

Janey, the youngest daughter, aged approximately 8, approaches the table. There's a school excursion on next Thursday, and it only costs $10 to go. The cost, she said, covers the entrance price to the venue, a picnic lunch and the school's bus hire. The trip's to a circus, all the kids are going! Eyes meet as the parents look away from their daughter. Janey cannot go. Janey complains that she could not go to the last excursion, either, and her parents try to explain, but Janey cannot understand. She cannot understand how something as little as $10 cannot be scratched up. Her big sister leads her away from the table, to preoccupy her mind with a game involving hills made of cardboard boxes, and a ratty-looking green toy frog. Kermee, they had named it affectionately.

When's Mikey coming home? Janey asks her sister. Mikey's not coming home for a long time, was the reply. Their brother had been caught lifting food from a takeaway store when a store attendant approached him. In fear, Mikey had knocked the attendant over in an attempt to get away, causing him to slam his head on the cold, tiled floor. The result was internal bleeding, the store attendant died later in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Mickey was sent to a Juvenile Detention Centre. A month off his 16th birthday, he'll soon be transferred to a proper prison. No-one knows what'll happen to him then.

Anyone with half a brain and a fraction of compassion would feel for this family. Those people who call themselves Socialist feel more yet again. We care about what happens to the family. We hurt deep inside ourselves over the fact that such a family can not get out of the rut that it's in. It tears us apart to know that an innocent boy is doing time, his youth taken from him, his future uncertain. We really DO care about what happens to such people, and we want to make things better for them.

For you to have your new clothes and new shoes and a car that works, or a shiny new bike, millions of other people across the planet have to suffer, otherwise those products would not be available for you. Do you ever consider them for one moment? Their lives? What nationality they are? How old or young they are? Who their family is? How they put food on tables? Whether or not they have tables at all? When, and how they die? I think about it daily.

For Capitalist employers anywhere to have wonderful lives, their employees have to suffer. It's the tenet of Capitalism: For few to have much, many must have little. I believe that is inhumane.

If that is the sort of thing you believe in, then I pity you greatly. Know that I am not here to turn your Capitalist mind to Socialism. If you are content to call yourself a Capitalist, then you are automatically an enemy of mine, as you support the injustice that is the Capitalist way of life. The injustice that makes so many millions of people suffer. The people I wish to help are those who cannot help themselves. I have no wish to help you. Frankly, I have no wish even to know you.

I am perplexed at what you and your Capitalist ilk hope to get out of being in a Socialist Discussion Forum such as CheLives, but I'd like to bring it to your attention that this forum is not likely to have been created so that you can express your feelings. Rather, it was more likely to have been created so that if you feel that you must express your feelings, then you can do it here over any other place in the Forums. We would prefer it only on one forum, not many, as it tends to spoil the great community that we have here.

I will reiterate: In my fight to "free the people", I do not intend on freeing people such as yourself. I am not an all-loving, all-kind, all-perfect human being. If you kill others, I will make you suffer, whether it be by bringing you to justice, or in severe cases, killing you too. You are NOTHING to me. You have proven yourself in support of the greatest evil modern societies has known, and I consider that evil a form of Terrorism. Therefore, you, in my eyes, are either a Terrorist, or one in support of Terrorism. Indeed, I consider the United States Government to be the greatest Terrorist of all. Thus anyone who supports anything that it does in it's Capitalist regime, is supporting Terrorism and is thus my enemy. If you think you are welcome here, you have another thought coming, Terrorist.

You are the perhaps unwitting supporter of the murder of millions upon millions, because they must die so that you can be comfortable with your life. And you dare to claim that you care about other people. That you've shed tears over some other people. Big fucking deal. I've shed oceans for many years now - the bulk of it being shed over the misfortune of people who I don't even know.

Don't waste my time again, Terrorist. Every breath you take is worth a mere fraction of that which passes the lips of a poor, crippled slave woman. One day, I will free her. May she stomp you into the dirt. That goes for all inhumane, selfish, greedy, arrogant Capitalist bastards. The gene pool deserves so much better.

[yuriandropov]

guest 216.203.235.23, 'youre just a bunch of kids trying to be different,if you lived in a socialist country, you'd change your attitude'. well, for a start, i'm almost 40, i lived (and was happy) in the USSR since 1962. i now live in belarus that is still run by communists under the dictatorship of luckashenko and his politburo. my views of socialism haven't changed. i would still prefer to live here than in the USA. the last time i went to USA, i went to LA. when i was driving round the 'ghettos' all i saw was alcohol and gun shops. the american capitalists want the prolaterat to get drunk and kill each other. thats what capitalism is, the rich rules over the poor. where i live in minsk, there is hardly any crime. especially compared to the likes of new york and LA. given the choice, i would choose minsk, belarus over new york city any day of the week.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Guest on 9:13 pm on May 12, 2002
Greadius, you rule. The commies just do't understand that their system sounds good, looks good on paper, but fails in real world application over and over, so what do theydo? They blame the "evil, oppressive United states", which, as you pointed out, never killed anyone for leaving, but accomdated thousands daily who risk their lives just for an opportunity to live here. And if any system brainwashes, its the communist system, where the government controls the media. Nowhre else on earth is there as much freedom of information as in the United states, absolutely nowhere. I invite anyone posting here to tell me of a country in which information is more free or accessible. The arguement that a capitalist, democratic nation somehow "brainwashes" its population is ludacris at best, because to the contrary, this country is teeming with debate, opposing views, and the free exchange of ideas, in fact it is one of its fundamental characteristics. It is in socialist and communist countries where one is brainwashed and homogenized, due to state-controlledmedia. Of course, most posters here don't realize this, because they've never actually lived in a communist nation, they just talk theoretical. The single stupidest arguement i've heard on this site is that the USA brainwashes its people and controls information. It is absolutely wrong and just ignorant for anyone to believe that.


however the US kills other people for trying to be commnist, or tries to destroy their leaders. Or call them evil for not assisting the Us and remaining nuetral because their country has enough internal problems with out helping a country that hates them. Oh yeah the US rocks, if you live there.

[Fabi]

I’ve never seen a tear shed over the loss of money

??????????????????????????? you cant be serious???????????????????? are you INSANE????? people KILL for money. people DIE for money. people comit suicide cause of LACK of money. people CRY when they cant feed their kids cause tehy dont have the money!!!!!!!!! what the fuck...

sorry bout that little rant, but i just got a little worked up.. no offense intended.. im okay now...

by the way.. yeah, i think the DDR pretty much failed and wasnt too great........ doesnt sound like it at least.

and... i dont really think that you are so free in the US.... i have been there... and some of it was great. met some nice people, had some great discussions, learned a lot..... but it really got on my nerves that a lot of people were EVEN MORE ignorant than here in germany....

america is NOT altruistic.

and, hey... just cause you consider yourself somewhat one the left of course doesnt mean you're perfect... but i doubt that too many of the so-called capitalists in this forum have read any marx/lenin etc... so dont go around *****ing us out... (of course ONLY aimed at the ones who DIDNT read anything)

no... by the way.. i dont think it's about silencing.... c'mon.... america is about silencing... in my high school i could hardly breathe without feeling that i was doing something illegal... (and it wasnt cause i had bad breath.......)

i am sorry that i cant write such essay-like comments as Angie does.... but i hope i get my points across....

america is a joke.. everything is controlled by corporations... what about walmart good old family store.... yeah, we wont sell offending cds (waif me.. right) and magazines (sex is evil) but guns are okay... and our sweatshops... they are okay.... c'mon....

(i hope i made it easy enough on anybody to tear me apart.... ;))

[Guest]

someone take the LSD awqay from angie, she's such a martyr, your self riteous rants sound good on paper, but again socialism.communism fails in reality. it strips people of their liberty and goives them no choices with what they do with their lives, i bet you are some priveleged woman who alraedy enjoys the benefits of capitalism, son now you're "going socialist" because it seems the hip thing to do. go ahead, braveheart, free the opressed and downtrodden, by the way, that story was lame, the vast majority of americans don't have it that bad at all, so you must have been talling about some other western country, oh, and if you think you can justify some young kid stealing and then knocking over a shopkeeper and giving him a brain hemmorage and call him "innocent", that shows how far to the left and fucking insane you really are, but, your nation started as a prison colony, so that makes sense.

[Angie]

Guest 216.203.235.25

Awww, what's the matter, darling? Can't you cope with reality? And to think that it's a WOMAN who's bashing it into your skull?! Heavens above. But you know what? Diddums. Life is tough, even for foolish, arrogant people like yourself, and I guarantee you it's going to get a hell of a lot harder.

Calling my posts self-righteous rants and saying that I need to get off the LSD shows just how inhumane and heartless you really are. You see, all my posts have been desperately pushing just how important it is that we look after the world's poor and downtrodden population. Now, were you the faintest bit caring towards those people you rely on to survive, you would understand that the cause is just. But no, you want to destroy it. Thus, I wish to destroy you, so that others may live.

You, in all your inhumanity and utter callous selfishness, have no place upon this planet, let alone this forum. If you cannot support your fellow man by even attempting to lift them up out of their poverty, then you do not deserve to be amongst the human race. It those that are treated the worst that essentially do the most for society in the end. So, by proving yourself completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, do us all a favour and simply disappear from existence.

You are not fit to be human.

[Fabi]

oh guest.... you really are getting on my nerves.........
just leave that CIA-drug out of this topid, okay? ;)

i dont think you told us why socialism.communism doenst work... i know pure capitalism doesnt work... but fortunately (i think) that exists hardly anywhere...

and self riteous? what kind of rites? equal rites fa efree1? okay, dont take it personally... just babbling...

the american welfare system sucks. america's (the US' that is) political system sucks (as the elections have shown, god was that long ago..)

the US have the most prisoners per 100.000 people.... being second only to russia... and capital punishment... it has never been proven to eliminate crime. it doesnt.

what kind of a country is that, where you are not responsible enough to drink or vote or whatever when younger than 18 years, but you can still be responsible for everything else you do and be sentenced to death???????????????????????? that sounds pretty limiting to me...

but then, i might always be wrong...

[Angie]

Oh, and no. My nation, that is, the people of my country, started off approximately 60 million years ago. The oldest surviving race on the planet. The white were convicts initially, yes, but then I seem to remember that the only reason Australia was used as a colony was because America was too full, having already been used as a penal colony for many, many decades. Welcome to the real world, darling, stick that up your arse and rotate. See, where I come from? We know our history. And funnily enough? Our version of your history is actually more accurate than the rubbish they feed you. Much like the information that we get regarding the news today, as opposed to the lies you're fed. Come on now, the world knows that America is full of shit. It's media lies to it's people to keep them from receiving the truth that the rest of us receive readily. You think you know what's going on in the world? Think again. You know nothing but what your Terrorist government wants you to know, to keep you tame. Baaaaaaaa...

[Fabi]

i dont agree bout him disappearing, though...
i think even he does deserve to live and it would be really cruel to tell him that he is useless. maybe we're all just fooling ourselves. maybe politics dont even matter. maybe it's all just a matter psychology....

;)

[Angie]

Yeah, it is harsh, I agree, Fabi. Intentionally. :)

Regarding Politics, in the end, it's all just many words and few deeds. It's not honourable, but it is necessary. At least while life is as it is. When the fighting for "supremecy" is over, politics will be irrelevant.

I agree, we are fooling ourselves, it's very, very true. We are one race, a human race, and we're attempting to tear ourselves apart. Some of us are fighting for the majority, some of us are fighting for the few, some of us are fighting only for themselves.

I would dearly love for this entire race to get along, it's the ultimate, ultimate goal. But while we cannot all get together and support each other and guarantee each other's safety, happiness, honour and dignity, without letting money, arrogance and selfishness get in the way and destroying things for everyone, then I will stand on guard and pillage where necessary.

(Edited by Angie at 1:24 am on May 14, 2002)

[Fabi]

i know what you mean.
i think that for some people life is already enough of a struggle without thinking about the millions who are worse off than they are. if you think about it we all start out at zero. it doesnt matter where you are born, there will always be pain and there will always be people who are better off...
if you compare people there are rich and poor, but in their own worlds people MIGHT be poor regardless of how rich they are...... a millionaire's son may seem lucky to us, but he's human, too and has problems, too..

( i hope that made sense.. ;))

[Greadius]

Here we go again :biggrin:
All quotations belong to Angie, I still don’t have a clue how to do it properly.

“Every single day, literally hundreds of thousands of people die, because they live below the poverty line.” That would imply hundreads of thousands of people die daily because of malnutrition. Even if that is the case, which I doubt it is, I would bet unequivically that the vast majority of those deaths, 99% even, occur in nations which don’t allow the market to dictate its economy and poverty line.

“Because their nations' governments care less about them, and more about appeasing the western world, in specifics, America.” I’d wager that their governments are corrupt, mismanaged, and lack proper democratic functions; that causes much more misery than appeasement to the United States. Heck, mass starvation through bad land policy kills people faster, cheaper, and more efficiently than nuclear weapons, much less foreign policy.

“If these governments do not support America's foreign interests, the people suffer further due to invasions, embargoes, and various other form of oppression.” This is curious… take Cuba for example. If America has an embargo on Cuba, it is inhumane and causes those people misery. If America trades with Cuba, and gains interests in Cuba, and attempts to enforce those interests, it is inhumane and causes those people misery.
See how you’ve created a theoretical rock and a hard place? According to you, those people suffer from America irregardless of our foreign policy, which would logically lead one to conclude that American policy isn’t the control factor onto their suffering, but rather the conduct of governments.

“These are governments, and nations, which believe in supporting their own people and their own interests above the interests of the United States of America. And so they should - what moral high ground does America feel it has, and why does it feel it should push its ways onto other nations? Why cannot other nations be honoured for their own accomplishments, instead of how much they kiss the arse of America?” There we go! We agree entirely! Those nations should look out for the interests of their people.
However, if they want to deal with us they HAVE to play by our rules. If they don’t want to, they can take their nation and play by themselves. Of course, the misery associated with that is usually blamed on the United States as well. See how you create a paradox there; American policy can’t be fixed to your liking, the blame and hate will spew forth regardless of what we do.

“Then, we have the millions of people go to work daily in inhumane workplaces across the globe, commonly referred to as sweatshops. These people are paid bottom dollar wages, and are damned lucky if they receive anything else - superannuation is most likely unheard of. So are Christmas bonuses. Pay rises. Nothing but the basic wage.” Their working conditions are actually better than the working conditions of Americans during industrializatoin.
And much better than working conditions in the Soviet Union during industrialization. Economic development is a process; if you would rather have those people unemployed than making bottom dollar that is your perogative, but I think you condemn them to a worse life in the process.

“They don't work in the companies because they support it's ethics. They work in the companies because there's little else available to them.” Correction: there is NOTHING else available to them. If the corperations would leave those nations would be no better off than they were before they arrived. The argument is circular; is there actually an idea or proposal involved that relieves the plight of the laborers that go to work everyday voluntarily (unless of course they don’t have a choice to work, as they wouldn’t in a socialist world, which of course I would oppose on moral grounds).

“Their countries are Third World, and struggling. The companies taking advantage of them are large international conglomerates who don't give a crap about their workers' welfare. Just that the work gets done, and done on time, because of course, the Western world's shopping centres MUST have their Nikes. God forbid we be without such things in this world.” Nikes are SOOOO unfashionable :biggrin:
And it isn’t the responsibility of the company to care for the workers anymore than it is the workers responsibility to care for the companies. And once again I’ll reiterate that the idea is that the workers will begin to actually make some money because of employment can actually begin to spend some money; if they’re not capable of spending the rest of the world will never see the full benefits of globalization. If they make me cheap Nike sneakers, its all nice and well. If they begin to buy the products we produce (the exchange of wealth), I’ll see a heck of a lot more out of it than a pair of sneakers. And so will they.

“The loss of a worker is not a traumatic experience to such conglomerates. It is merely a temporary inconvenience until the next poor savage can move into the position, then work can continue at peak capacity once more.” I wish more people would understand this. Its vitally important that people not get emotionally attached to a corperation like it is anything more than a name. Likewise, when a worker leaves a corperation it sheds no tears. It is an economic exchange, not a marriage.

“The companies aren't doing them much of a favour by taking them on. In fact, they're more likely to be digging their workers an early grave by providing less than humane work conditions and expecting more out of their workers than they should.” Would they be better off unemployed; or in the non-existant, fantasy “High wage, nice conditions, high security” workplace that doesn’t and has never existed without the ‘sweatshop’ stage?

“Here's a little story about Western World poverty:
Anyone with half a brain and a fraction of compassion would feel for this family.” I don’t feel for them, because that is the most imaginary load of BS propoganda I’ve read in a long time :biggrin:
It says clearly in the story that there are LAWS against his work, and working conditions, yet he CHOOSES to ignore enforcement. What more can be done for an individual that won’t even stand up for his own rights? I’ve seen similar people spotted all over my former home, and they all have one thing in common: they are completely and entirely incapable of managing their own life and finances. They represent an infinatismally small minority that gets an obscene amount of undeserved pitty. They are making bad choices; I won’t be held responsible or be dragged down by their bad choices.

“Those people who call themselves Socialist feel more yet again. We care about what happens to the family. We hurt deep inside ourselves over the fact that such a family can not get out of the rut that it's in. It tears us apart to know that an innocent boy is doing time, his youth taken from him, his future uncertain. We really DO care about what happens to such people, and we want to make things better for them.” So you’re willing to drag the rest of society through the lifelong condemnation of mediocraty that is socialism. I’m alwasys highly suspect of people that claim to be doing something out of the goodness of their heart, since there is that paternalistic and omnscient air of superiority that comes along with it. And I’m twice as suspect of people who know with absolute certainty what is best for everyone, because I’m absolutely certain their version of what is best for everyone will benefit them a heck of a lot more than it will benefit me.
And an innocent boy isn’t doing time; first he is imaginary, second, that imaginary character killed someone.

“For you to have your new clothes and new shoes and a car that works, or a shiny new bike, millions of other people across the planet have to suffer, otherwise those products would not be available for you. Do you ever consider them for one moment? Their lives? What nationality they are? How old or young they are? Who their family is? How they put food on tables? Whether or not they have tables at all? When, and how they die? I think about it daily.” Good for you :biggrin:
But I understand that my ancestors went through the same thing so that I wouldn’t have to. Development is a process, an admitantly ugly one, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Taking a shortsighted way out will just condemn them to the misery that their ancestors had.
And by the same token, I’ve worked a miserable, minimum wage, service job while living in a small apartment next to a house project. I was way below the poverty line; my bills came very close to bankrupting me on several occassions. Did I need your compassion and caring to help me? No; all I needed was to manage my money properly, work harder by going to school at the same time, and everything turned out just fantastic in the end. The opportunity existed; I won’t shed a tear for those that won’t take it.

“For Capitalist employers anywhere to have wonderful lives, their employees have to suffer. It's the tenet of Capitalism: For few to have much, many must have little. I believe that is inhumane.” That isn’t true at all. It makes wealth a zero-sum game. That is, it assumes only X amount of wealth exists in the world, divided by capitalism, Y will have much more than Z. What it forgets is that that through capitalism, X is not a fixed number, but constantly expanding; by the same token, Y and Z have to expand at the same pace. I’m ‘suffering’ quite comfortably right now, because my Z, albeit smaller, is constantly expanding, and I understand that if I stop expansion of Y, X won’t grow, and henceforth, Z won’t grow for me either. The basic false assumption is that many have little BECAUSE few have much, which is once again ignoring the fluidity of wealth and economic expansion necessary for anyone to get anything.

“If you are content to call yourself a Capitalist, then you are automatically an enemy of mine, as you support the injustice that is the Capitalist way of life.” More precisely, we have different concepts of what justice is. I’ve always thought people get what they deserve, because I certainly haven’t been handed anything I didn’t work for.

“The injustice that makes so many millions of people suffer.” The implication is that there is a world where suffering doesn’t exist. This is the kind of fantasy land Christianity is based upon, no?

“The people I wish to help are those who cannot help themselves.” The statement of a benevolent dictator, which is still a dictator irregardless of intent; the results have always been the same: misery.

“I have no wish to help you. Frankly, I have no wish even to know you.” Fantastic! Keep your socialist utopia as far away from me as possible then :biggrin:

“I am perplexed at what you and your Capitalist ilk hope to get out of being in a Socialist Discussion Forum such as CheLives, but I'd like to bring it to your attention that this forum is not likely to have been created so that you can express your feelings. Rather, it was more likely to have been created so that if you feel that you must express your feelings, then you can do it here over any other place in the Forums. We would prefer it only on one forum, not many, as it tends to spoil the great community that we have here.” The suppression of ideas is the tenement of all movements which don’t rely on sound ideas to make their case. Those societies in which the free exchange and debate of concepts is encouraged prosper accordingly.
Actually, its for the intellectual exercise, the entertainment value, and the fact that I felt my education in economics is going to be too one-sided and impersonal :biggrin:

“I will reiterate: In my fight to "free the people", I do not intend on freeing people such as yourself.” I am quite free; thanks for the non-offer. We’ll continue to provide refuge for the hundreads of thosuands who wish to free themselves from Communism.

“I am not an all-loving, all-kind, all-perfect human being.” Neither am I. See, we have something in common :biggrin:

“If you kill others, I will make you suffer, whether it be by bringing you to justice, or in severe cases, killing you too. You are NOTHING to me.” I’ll try not to kill anyone. Sounds like a veiled threat though. Violence is wrong :biggrin:
Even though I’m slightly confused how you can have such great compassion for people, yet other people you can say are nothing to you… isn’t that a little inconsistant?

“You have proven yourself in support of the greatest evil modern societies has known, and I consider that evil a form of Terrorism. Therefore, you, in my eyes, are either a Terrorist, or one in support of Terrorism. Indeed, I consider the United States Government to be the greatest Terrorist of all. Thus anyone who supports anything that it does in it's Capitalist regime, is supporting Terrorism and is thus my enemy. If you think you are welcome here, you have another thought coming, Terrorist.” Terrorism isn’t a catch-all word for everything you don’t like. It has a specific definition to which economic policies can under no circumstances be stretched to fit; so what you are doing is inserting a completely false word where many more would be more appropriate in order to create a negative association and emotional response.
This is the kind of vilifying of those who disagree with your politics that I find scary. It’s the same kind of mentality that causes more war and suffering than any economic system: de-humanizing the enemy as a one-sided force of evil.

“You are the perhaps unwitting supporter of the murder of millions upon millions, because they must die so that you can be comfortable with your life.” I’m not familiar with an economic theory of death, nor am I familiar with an economic theory of endless life.

“Don't waste my time again, Terrorist.” Insult.

“Every breath you take is worth a mere fraction of that which passes the lips of a poor, crippled slave woman.” De-humanization. You are saying I’m less of a human being than someone else, justifying your willingness to strip me of my humanity, which would put you in the exact same place you accuse me of being…

“One day, I will free her. May she stomp you into the dirt. That goes for all inhumane, selfish, greedy, arrogant Capitalist bastards. The gene pool deserves so much better.” And finally we conclude with the justification of murder for the sake of morality. Can there be any position as hypocritical as that? The killing of percieved evil will never bring about good. Amatterfact, with that gene pool comment it borders on advocating genocide. I don't think you, or any one else for that matter, is qualified to judge the humanity of an individual because of their political beliefs.

I wish much better for you than you do for me; including your continued impassionate politics, regardless of my disagreement with them. As long as you don’t resort to violence or suppresssing others viewpoints, I’ll always be happy to know people who think different exist. I’m sorry you don’t feel the same way.

(Edited by Greadius at 5:23 pm on May 13, 2002)

[Greadius]

This time picking apart Fabi. Actually he seems like a nice guy; more like poinant critiques :biggrin:

"i dont think you told us why socialism.communism doenst work" In short, the third party morality and community motivators aren't necessary to encourage a sufficient amount of economic activity to maximize the utility of the individuals in the community.

"the american welfare system sucks. america's (the US' that is) political system sucks (as the elections have shown, god was that long ago..)" It is SUPPOSED to suck; or people might stay on it longer than they have to :biggrin:
And that blanket political cynicism is really unfounded; I work in politics every day and I really don't see where people get that concept from...?

"the US have the most prisoners per 100.000 people.... being second only to russia... and capital punishment... it has never been proven to eliminate crime. it doesnt." Of course, many of those offenders are because of 'illegal' drugs, which are policies that I'm completely opposed to. And the fact that our justice system is efficient enough that people have more difficulty getting away with crimes. And of course the fact that there is just MORE to steal here.
I agree about capital punishment though, it has no place in a modern society. Unfortunately, 70% of Americans disagree with me, so there is a lot of work to be done to get there.

"what kind of a country is that, where you are not responsible enough to drink or vote or whatever when younger than 18 years, but you can still be responsible for everything else you do and be sentenced to death???????????????????????? that sounds pretty limiting to me..." A great one :biggrin: Minor hypocracy, needs to be fixed. It is actually an outgrowth of inconstancy of two completely seperate policies that it can occur. Of course, I don't know anyone under 18 who has been executed, I know many who have drunk alcohol. Its kind of like balancing puritanism with freedom, very difficult and delicate task.
Then again, seeing as I don't know anyone that has ever been executed, its 'limiting' effect is really, well, limited.

[Greadius]

Quote: from Angie on 3:08 pm on May 13, 2002
Much like the information that we get regarding the news today, as opposed to the lies you're fed. Come on now, the world knows that America is full of shit. It's media lies to it's people to keep them from receiving the truth that the rest of us receive readily. You think you know what's going on in the world? Think again. You know nothing but what your Terrorist government wants you to know, to keep you tame. And I thought I was finished... I just had to pick up on this one...
The world knows it then, but, why does the rest of the world seem to bend over backwards to gain our favor and wealth. If we're full of shit, why do we still have the highest immigration rate, by far, in the world? And many more that wish to live here but can't... it would seem that if the rest of the world doesn't view America as you seem to think they do (although who appointed you spokeswoman for the world I don't know).

And as far as that media BS... the government doesn't control the media. The government doesn't control media outlets. The government isn't allowed to interfere in the media, and has been prevented from doing so on several occasions. All our media is privately owned, its reporters scattered throughout the world. In addition to our homegrown media, I have access to any sort of information I want through the WWW. To say I've been filtered and fed is obviously false or I would NEVER have stumbled on this site, much less had the patience to read it.
Once again, it is blaming the media for the failure of your ideas.

[Fabi]

i do agree that it is possible to get information, but (i dont know if it was here) if it's not the government controlling the media, then it is corporations.
Corporate censorship at walmart just as an example. WalMart claims to be a 'family store' and thus does not carry 'offending' magazines. Of course you can buy magazines elsewhere, but since WalMart makes up such a great share of the magazine distribution the magazines adjust to WalMart policies.
Same thing with cds... i think in '94 they made up for 10% of the cd's sold in the US. meaning you can buy nirvana's 'waif me' there. But at the same time at my walmart the sold guns just down the aisle from the cds. and of course they use sweatshops and although they are the single biggest employer in the US they pay wages below the average. (while making big profits and opening new stores everywhere)

Another thing is that since abc and disney merged abc-people had slight problems when trying to publish anything portraying disney in a negative way.

i know all this might sound trivial and is maybe not that bad yet, but i think that there is some strange tendency there... and i dont like it. also in my high school you really did have problems saying what you wanted. (we werent even allowed to draw mushrooms in class cause they were considered 'drug-related'.... ;))

And what about that kid who went to school with a pepsi shirt on his school's coca-cola day and got kicked out?
..... just wonering... ;)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Angie, you dolt, don't you realize that for every stab you take at me for my beliefs, there is a reciprocal stab I can take at you. For instance, I don't know what you think "our history" teaches us, but I know that what you hear is revisionist history written mosty by a country embittered by its second class rating in world affairs, especially compared to the USA and I fail to see how the history you have been taught is someow more accurate than the history I know. If i remember, the victors write history, and the US has been victorious throughout history, so don't feed me some B.S. that your history is so legitimate, because it was probably originated by the UK after they lost the revolutionary war and was written with a good amount of bitterness and frustration from a defeated empire and handed down to a second-rate country. By the way, even you imperial masters the UK are our puppet, so don't claim that your history is in any way superior, it is probably for the most part jaded and envious of American success. The claim that it is somehow more accurrate would be considered conjecture at best. You see, darling, most of the hatred for the United States comes from envy and anger from other countries because in our short 200 years we have become the most powerful country in world history in terms of industry, economy, technology, and military. We have given the world electricity, affordable automobilies, the airplane, nuclear power, the computer you are looking at and the internet you are communicating through. Those are just a few of the inventions we have given you that you depend on and take for granted, but use daily, hypocrite. Those that see the US as "evil" do so mostly because they have not enjoyed the same level of success and living standards as the USA. We have thousands of people risking their lives daily to get a chance to get into our borders. We also give out more in financial aid and debt relief than any other country on earth, often without expectation of any return. We protect the western world from those that would do harm to free nations. We've saved europe 2 times in one century, and defeated the soviets in the cold war. If you think that the threat of tyrannical, oppressive nations (communist nations) is a false fear, then you are obviously no student of history or world affairs. History also shows us that it is the socialist regimes that are the mass murderers. Letslook, uh, huh, lets see, Stalin (50 million) Hitler (8 million+) pol pot, the chinese government (you can't even have your own sacred (religious) beliefs there, oh, don't forget in your utopian socialist societies speaking out against the government is forbidden, yeah, what a great society!! Oh, did I mention if you want to be a doctor, or airplane pilot, you have to get government permission, and they'll probabaly tell you "no, you'll be a street cleaner, we need street cleaners". HA HA! Don't you see? Oh, by the way, the stupisest arguement i've heard yet on this post is that the United states, known for its peoples right to protest, free exchange of ideas, and speaking out againsts the government, as well as free media, is somehow brainwashing its people, specially compared to a communist regimes state controlled media. That claim is just plain ludacris The world is emerging under democracy and free-market capitalism, because people want to be free to pursue what makes them happy, they don't want to take what the government gives them and "be happy with it". That is no way to spend your life. Oh, and since your such a thinker, you'll understand the fundamental principle of economics, which is we live in a world of limited resources but unlimited wants, this rule lends itself best to capitalimsm, where the hardest workers receive their fair due of reward. Not "everyone is treated equal no matter what they contribute". See, you leftists love to sit back on your butts and let the govermnet take care of you and tell you where to go and what to do, but Americans want more than that, we want to invent, innovate, progress. You see, thats why the vast majority of inventions and innovations in the last 100 years have come from the united states, your great utopian plan doen not encourage 1 iota of initiative or effort on an individual, history shows us this. But, I have to remember, you've never actually lived in a commie or socialist regime, and you have no actual idea what it is really like, you only talk theorhetically, and i'm sure if you spent a week in one of those oppressive regimes your self-riteous little attitude would change very quick. Oh, by the way, those litte personal attacks and assetions suggesting that I should be "wiped of the face of the earth" don't work well, they sound fanatical and severely compromise your crediblility, not to mention that they make you sound absolutely idiotic (oh, wait, you're australian, you can't help it)

[Greadius]

Quote: from Fabi on 6:02 pm on May 13, 2002
i do agree that it is possible to get information, but (i dont know if it was here) if it's not the government controlling the media, then it is corporations. But its different corperations, with different interests. For example, I have access to Fox (NewsCorp, owned by an Aussie), CNN (AOL-Time Warner), MSNBC (Microsoft), and those are JUST the big three cable news networks, not to mention the smaller ones. They may all be corperations, but much like people, they have different industries they want to protect. For example, AOL and Microsoft have clashed several times over the expanding webmarket; they're not bed buddies, and are far from corperate partners.
Plus, there is the determining factor of what people want and expect from the news. If people don't believe what the 'news' is telling them they won't listen to it, period. If people get the feeling they're being fed a line fo BS, they will switch the channel, the channel's ratings will decline, and they will loose revenue... not something you want to do if you have shareholders. The result: diverse reporting is a necessity to remain competitive (just in mainstream cable networks). Since most people want the same thing from the news, the truth, the network that gives the impression it gets closest to the truth makes the most money.

"Corporate censorship at walmart just as an example. WalMart claims to be a 'family store' and thus does not carry 'offending' magazines. Of course you can buy magazines elsewhere, but since WalMart makes up such a great share of the magazine distribution the magazines adjust to WalMart policies." Playboy has adjusted to Wal-marts policy?

"Same thing with cds... i think in '94 they made up for 10% of the cd's sold in the US. meaning you can buy nirvana's 'waif me' there. But at the same time at my walmart the sold guns just down the aisle from the cds." That is extremely annoying... and is why I won't buy CD's at Walmart. It really doesn't bother me, because I don't have to patronize walmart if I don't want to (and I avoid it at all costs). There is too much competition for Walmarts policy to be effective.
As far as selling guns... I suppose you have to find guns morally reprehensible to consider it a big deal. Walmart is run by Puritans, and I respect them standing by their principles of guns > ideas... which is exactly why I don't buy either there :biggrin:

"and of course they use sweatshops and although they are the single biggest employer in the US they pay wages below the average. (while making big profits and opening new stores everywhere)" Walmart actually pays fairly good for the type of work they do. Its not very demanding or skill intensive labor. I had a friend who worked the nightshift there, he made quite a bit more money an hour than I did just unloading crates for a few hours. Of course, half of all Americans make below average wages... shocking isn't it :biggrin:

"Another thing is that since abc and disney merged abc-people had slight problems when trying to publish anything portraying disney in a negative way." I've heard about that... of course, Microsoft and AOL-Time Warner will fall over themselves to publish negative portrayals of Disney. They are competitors, it is the nature of the beast.
Also, AOL-Time Warner doesn't hold punches in critisizing itself. Time magazine had an article about the mistakes AOL made in the merger... they stated upfront they were owned by the company. Its good to know that AOL hasn't hired PR censors in the news division.

"also in my high school you really did have problems saying what you wanted. (we werent even allowed to draw mushrooms in class cause they were considered 'drug-related'.... ;))" I hate that about High schools... I don't know how they expect anyone to recieve an intellectual challenge, must less an education, if they think cookie-cutter lowest common denominator classrooms are the answer. Lots needs to be done here; right now the process is in the stage of 'gathering public consensus', so there is a still a while to go.

"And what about that kid who went to school with a pepsi shirt on his school's coca-cola day and got kicked out?" Coca-Cola day?? You mean they were all wearing red-shirts?? Dirty-rotten-pinko-commie-bastards :biggrin:
On the one hand, I find the idea of Coca-Cola day annoying, on the other hand, he did it just to piss off the administrators; he is far from a political victim, more like a kid being stupid. But I think he had the right to be stupid... oy well, I believe Pepsi offered him some sorta scholarship :biggrin:

[Fabi]

"We also give out more in financial aid and debt relief than any other country on earth, often without expectation of any return. We protect the western world from those that would do harm to free nations. We've saved europe 2 times in one century, and defeated the soviets in the cold war. If you think that the threat of tyrannical, oppressive nations (communist nations) is a false fear, then you are obviously no student of history or world affairs. "

well how oppressive was the US and mccarthy bout people being communists?????? where's the difference between a communist government oppressing capitalists and a capitalist government oppressing commnunists?????? or anarchists? or women who want a fucking abortion? (or maybe even NEED one) or homosexuals or bisexuals?

and the US DOES NOT give away too much money, of all industrialized nations the US gives the LEAST of its GDP........ yeah, really altruistic.
and you never saved europe that just somehow happened along the way and made things happen faster, but in WWII germany was nearly beaten anyway. the US just got into the wars cause THEY were threatened. (although i am not trying to say that the US werent a big help...)



'Walmart actually pays fairly good for the type of work they do. Its not very demanding or skill intensive labor. '
the problem here is that this type of work is exactly what most americans are doing and have to live from. the 'higher' a society is the more it moves away from farming/manufacturing to industries and then to services, which is exactly what people in stores like walmart do. or why else do you think walmart is (or at least used to be, dont think it changed yet) the single biggest employer in the US? cause the jobs they offer are NOT jobs for kids to earn some money, but jobs people have to live off.

' I've heard about that... of course, Microsoft and AOL-Time Warner will fall over themselves to publish negative portrayals of Disney. They are competitors, it is the nature of the beast.
Also, AOL-Time Warner doesn't hold punches in critisizing itself. Time magazine had an article about the mistakes AOL made in the merger... they stated upfront they were owned by the company. Its good to know that AOL hasn't hired PR censors in the news division. '
as i said it might not seem that dangerous now, but i think it is a little unnerving... and it just shows that the networks are totally biased and NOT objective. you still have a choice, but it's not really that great....



and i had history classes in the US and i dont know whether or not it is more TRUE what you learn, but i DO know that the way it is being taught really SUCKS. there are hardly any discussions, hardly any attempts to see things from another perspective. maybe (MAYBE) what american students learn is the truth. but you should at least consider other views... which in my class didnt happen.....

'Plus, there is the determining factor of what people want and expect from the news. If people don't believe what the 'news' is telling them they won't listen to it, period. If people get the feeling they're being fed a line fo BS, they will switch the channel, the channel's ratings will decline, and they will loose revenue... not something you want to do if you have shareholders. The result: diverse reporting is a necessity to remain competitive (just in mainstream cable networks). Since most people want the same thing from the news, the truth, the network that gives the impression it gets closest to the truth makes the most money. '
and i disagree with that. the networks are businesses and they, as you pointed out, need the people to watch their programs...... but it DOES NOT lead to better research and journalism and better programs, meaning, what the people NEED to see, but to what the people WANT to see. it is only a little more than entertainment. the more pictures and the more blood and the more plaincrashes and the more deaths, the more viewers. it often doesnt matter if the story is BS or only a little biased or just badly done, by means of research, as long as people find it ENTERTAINING to watch it.
i of course understand that there still are choices but i think you know what i mean....

here is something interesting i got from prozacspotlight.org:

The flood was long and deep, but the influence of pharmaceutical companies over medical know-how may have reached its high-water mark. The ebb began, arguably, in September 2001, when the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors agreed that researchers should have the right to publish their findings. Of course, you probably thought they already enjoyed that privilege.

Corporations now fund 70 percent of all clinical research in the US. Those companies, in turn, have long reserved the right to sit on any data that might do harm to their pharmaceutical brands. In 1999, for example, Eli Lilly received a paper on olanzapine, the best-selling antipsychotic drug in America. The study showed that, contrary to Lilly's hopes, olanzapine was not useful in the treatment of Parkinson's symptoms. Those results were kept quiet, and the drug continues to be used inappropriately, exposing Parkinson's patients to a long list of potential side-effects.

In October 2001, the journals Nature, New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, and the Journal of the American Medical Association laid down further guidelines that the public likely took for granted. These journals now ask that study authors disclose their potential conflicts of interest – financial or investment connections, and employment histories. In one classic example of the possible effect, a University of California, San Francisco, researcher analyzed 70 studies of a particular heart drug. Ninety-six percent of researchers with ties to pharmaceutical corporations found that the drug was safe; only 36 percent of those without industry connections agreed.



i think that is also sort of interesting... maybe (MAYBE) things are still under control, but i think we have to be careful....

and america is not responsible for all the great innovations.... for example the industrialization started in england and stuff... a lot of great philosophers came from france, germany dunno where... a lot of great literature comes from countries not called USA... and whether or not you consider psychology, arts, literature and such as important as bombers and weapons is your decision...

too tired to write more....

[Angie]

Oh that's right, I just remembered. Americans with limited access to world history can only use their one-sided view to back up their claims. Little wonder that Capitalist Imperial and Greadius only have the set of "straight off the production line" range of comebacks that have been debated and broken apart long ago. Someone must have forgotten to tell them. But of course, they wouldn't know would they, being the brainwashed gits that they are...

yawn... :biggrin:

[Angie]

An exerpt of the 1990 Pentagon report, published just prior to the invasion of Kuwait. Its authors are Stephen C. Pelletiere, Douglas V. Johnson II and Leif R. Rosenberger, of the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. War College at Carlisle, Pennsylvania:

"Introduction. Throughout the war the United States practiced a fairly benign policy toward Iraq. Although initially disapproving of the invasion, Washington came slowly over to the side of Baghdad. Both wanted to restore the status quo ante to the Gulf and to reestablish the relative harmony that prevailed there before Khomeini began threatening the regional balance of power. Khomeini's revolutionary appeal was anathema to both Baghdad and Washington; hence they wanted to get rid of him. United by a common interest, Iraq and the United States restored diplomatic relations in 1984, and the United States began to actively assist Iraq in ending the fighting. It mounted Operation Staunch, an attempt to stem the flow of arms to Iran. It also increased its purchases of Iraqi oil while cutting back on Iranian oil purchases, and it urged its allies to do likewise. All this had the effect of repairing relations between the two countries, which had been at a very low ebb.

In September 1988, however -- a month after the war had ended -- the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds. It is beyond the scope of this study to go deeply into this matter; suffice it to say that throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies -- Iran and the elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of this operation - according to the U.S. State Department -- gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

We would have expected, in a matter as serious as this, that the Congress would have exercised some care. However, passage of the sanctions measure through the Congress was unusually swift -- at least in the Senate where a unanimous vote was secured within 24 hours. Further, the proposed sanctions were quite draconian (and will be discussed in detail below). Fortunately for the future of Iraqi-U.S. ties, the sanctions measure failed to pass on a bureaucratic technicality (it was attached as a rider to a bill that died before adjournment).

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of them Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.

Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action. As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest."

Every single mainstream U.S media source jumped on the bandwagon of the gassing tales, and used it to pump up the U.S people in support of the Gulf War. The gassing tales were only ONE instance out of many that was later shown as utter BS.

Next, we have a portion of a United Nations report that also claims no evidence exists to support US claims that Iraq used gas on the Kurds:

"I continue to make inquiry into the situation in Iraq, as it is likely to brew up into another crisis one of these days when the U.N. has no choice but to conclude that Iraq is not hiding any weapons of mass destruction -- or if they are, they are so well hidden that nobody is going to find them. As you know, I'm sure, the warhawks in the United States will continue to insist that the embargo remain in place no matter what, and there will be assertions from around the world that we have not been acting in good faith. As you also know, I believe there are serious questions regarding our behavior toward Iraq that go back further. You would agree, I think, that at the very least our State Department gave a "green light" to Saddam Hussein to go into Kuwait in August 1990. The more I read of the events of the period, the more I believe history will record that the Gulf War was unnecessary, perhaps even that Saddam Hussein was willing to retreat back to his borders, but our government decided we preferred the war to the status quo ante.

In my previous correspondence with you on this matter, I had been in a quandary about the state of our relations with Baghdad during that critical period. In the months immediately preceding the "green light" given by our Ambassador, April Glaspie, a number of your Senate colleagues including Bob Dole had traveled to Baghdad, met with Saddam, and found him to be a head of state worthy of support. Even Sen. Howard Metzenbaum [D-OH], a Jewish liberal and staunch supporter of Israel, gave him a seal of approval. What disturbs me even now, Jesse, is that these meetings occurred after the Senate Foreign Relations committee had accused Iraq of using poison gas against its own people, i.e., the Kurds. Like all other Americans, in recent years I had assumed that what I read in the papers was true about Iraq gassing its own people. Once the war drums again began beating last November, I decided to read up on the history, and found Iraq denied having used gas against its own people. Furthermore, I heard that a Pentagon investigation at the time had also turned up no hard evidence of Saddam gassing his own people."

Once again, the media ignored it. Do you think it was published back then? Of course not? The most impressive bit of information held back for a very long time was that the media refused to report such issues as the U.N. telling the world that 1.4 million Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the sanctions, which is 3,000 times more than the number of Kurds who supposedly died of gassing at the hands of Saddam.

Okay, now here's some cute little tidbits of information in relation to significantly more current events:

"Investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying ... is considered career suicide."
-- Carl Cameron, as quoted in 'The Spies Who Came In From The Art Sale'

"While I agree with you, if I say anything about US geopolitical interests with Israel, I might as well clean off my desk."
-- Unnamed reporter as quoted in American Media Censorship and Israel

The following is made by John Swinton, the former Chief of Staff at the New York Times:

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for eeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the
streets looking for another job.

If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the
property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."

Need another?

"NBC is reported to have interviews on tape with Juanita Broaddrick, a.k.a. Jane Doe #5, the Arkansas woman who accused Clinton of raping her 20 years ago. Despite having four corroborating witnesses, and having actually run the story several months prior, NBC bows to White House pressure and spikes the on-air interview in January 1999 during the impeachment trial of Bill Clinton. ABC also had the story and likewise spiked it after calls from the White House. FOX News not only runs the story (sans interview) but outs White House Press Spokesman Joe Lockhart for threatening them."

Another:

"CNN/Time - On June 7th, 1998, CNN reported that a Vietnam veteran had accused the Department of Defense of using nerve gas on it's own troops. While hardly the first time that the US has used chemicals against it's own people, this story proved to be un confirmable, and in the face of pressure from the Department of Defense, CNN retracted on July 2nd, 1998. Several reporters were fired, but CNN's Peter Arnett keeps his job by reminding everyone that he just reads what's given to him and has no way of knowing if it's true or not. At last report, Arnett, CNN and TIME have been sued for 100 million dollars for defaming the officers accused of the Sarin gas attacks."

(Thankfully, the issue of nerve gas usage has been confirmed.)

I could go on and on and on and on....

It's really not too difficult to find plenty of links between the U.S Government and the U.S mainstream media. They play off each other to keep you tame, darlings.

[Fabi]

hey angie, those were some interesting facts... if it is all true, which i personally dont really doubt, could you tell us where you got them? are there any links on the web on the topic that you know of?

[Angie]

Some links pertaining to America's Convict Years, up until the War of Independence:

Geneology Quest: Transported Convicts
http://www.genealogy-quest.com/collections...llconvicts.html (http://www.genealogy-quest.com/collections/allconvicts.html)
(American site)

Early American Flags with Snake Motif
http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html
(American site)
Second sentence, first paragraph.

Encarta: American convicts
http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=...6125&cid=12#p12 (http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=1&pg=2&ti=761566125&cid=12#p12)
(American site)

And those are only a tiny number of American ones. Think of all the other ones created by Australians explaining what happened to start the Australian convict period, and all the British sites that do the same. There are literally thousands of them. Still questioning history?

Feel free to look up more information online or at your local library, Americans. Excellent words include The Transportation Act of 1718 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22The+Transportation+Act+of+1718%22)
(an American search engine!)

A little point of interest? End of the American period of Convict Transportation? 1783, just after your War. The beginning of Australia's period of Convict Transportation? 1788. Just in time for all the paperwork to be finalised and a number of inhumane ships to be made for the voyage down under.

I'm tired of arguing with kids. 'Night, Cappie boys, it's time you went back to playing with your tonka trucks, because you've no place here.

Score yet another for the Socialists, thank you, thank you. *bows*

-----
Btw, Fabi, I'll present them to you tomorrow when I've added to them, if necessary (I expect the morons to refuse them, naturally, so have a few more to add, though I'm not up to all the typing involved, having typed plenty already.) I will tell you though, that Fair.org is a good place to start. It's neither left nor right wing, and attacks all mainstream media reporting. I'm tired, it's late, I have to start work in a few hours. 'Night. :)

(Edited by Angie at 12:41 am on May 15, 2002)

[Fabi]

here's something interesting from indymedia.org ...
it really is worth reading...

"
On 9 march 2002, "Good Mainstream Journalism For A Change" was posted on Sydney IMC. It was an article by Holger Jensen, the International Editor for the Denver Rocky Mountain News, a veteran journalist who had been filing quite remarkable stories from Israel-Palestine.

Jensen is no longer working for Rocky Mountain News and the evidence points to the Jewish lobby for Israel in the US as being one of the key reasons why.

In addition to the ‘Good Mainstream Journalism For A Change’ posting IMC article, excerpts of another Holger Jensen article, ‘Gaza is a hellhole’ was posted on 10 March 2002 along with a Noam Chomsky excerpt dealing with the state that Gaza is in that is germane to the current situation IMC article.

At the present time, none of the 19 Jensen articles that were posted on the Rocky Mountain News website are available as RMN has pulled them from the site and Jensen was forced to take his web site down because RMN and Scripps claimed it was violating their copyright. His web site is up again with nothing more than a bio. Holger Jensen home page

In response to an email query to Holger Jensen email Holger Jensen, he replied that the terms of his departure do do not allow him to give details but acknowledges that there were differences on editorial policy.

Readers’ comments posted on the RMN site have assumed the obvious:

"I too came looking for Jensen. He's been wiped from the site. His home page also has his articles removed. What are you afraid of?"
May 10, 2002, 10:02 PM

"If it's not stiffling, then where's Holger Jensen? Explain please."
May 9, 2002, 12:33 PM

"What has happened to Holger Jensen?"
May 6, 2002, 12:33 PM

"Where is Holger Jensen?"
May 3, 2002, 7:37 PM

"Interesting that Holger Jensen has just dropped out of the Rocky Mountain News..."
April 30, 2002, 10:59 AM

"Several weeks ago Holger Jensen wrote a pro-palestinian article and now (as predicted) we not only haven't any new word from him, but we can't access his old stories. Does this worry any one else?"
April 29, 2002, 9:27 PM

"where's Holger?"
April 26, 2002, 7:18 AM

"I guess the local zionist got together and threaten RMN that they would pull their ads unless you dumped JENSEN.This country is in real trouble.FREE PRESS? you got to be kidding."
April 25, 2002, 9:29 PM

A survey of the web turns up plenty of evidence that the Jewish lobby for Israel was out to get Jensen. “HonestReporting.com”, is a Jewish site devoted to monitoring and reporting on any material that appears in the media that is critical of Israel in any way. They even reached across the border to Canada, in an article posted on the site, “Canadian Rehash”, to object to the Canadian Broadcasting Corp’s showing of “The Accused” – shown here recently with objections from the local Jewish lobby for Israel – and two other documentaries that were perceived to be hostile to Israel. The heading of the HR article was, “CBC shows its true colors with a series of Mideast documentaries”.

An article about Jensen, titled “Rocky Mountain Lie”, begins with “A reporter in Denver has earned his place as one of the most rabidly anti-Israel journalists at work today. It's time to let him know how we feel.”

“HonestReporting.com” further exhorts its readers, “If you feel the Jensen column shows bias, send your complaints to the editor. The most effective method is to write a letter in your own words. Otherwise, you may cut-and-paste the critique below."

Send your reactions to:
[email protected]
[email protected]

You can CC Holger Jensen at:
[email protected]

"Thank you for your ongoing involvement in the battle against media bias."

The “cut and paste critique” begins with “To the Editor: As a concerned reader, I believe that Holger Jensen's columns severely damage the credibility of your news organization. Jensen's columns are consistently filled with violations of media objectivity. Because of Jensen, the Rocky Mountain News has gotten a widespread reputation for inaccurate and biased reporting…"

A personal testimonial to Holger Jensen is posted on the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace website CCMEP posting

Colorado Campaignfor Middle East Peace

Back To Hick Town: The Purge of Holger Jensen
Rob Prince/Denver Colorado/May 5, 2002

I'm tipping my glass of brandy to toast Holger Jensen.

Anybody who has the dubious experience of watching a political hatchet job up close, knows more or less what happened to Jensen, long the Rocky Mountain News' international columnist from South Africa.

Initial answers to inquiries about Jensen's recent absence from the pages of the Rocky simply stated that he was `on vacation'. Then `the vacation' was extended. Indefinitely. Finally a public notification came, buried deep within another dull column by News publisher John Temple. `Holger Jensen has resigned his position as International Editor to pursue other interests.' Simultaneously, all Jensen's columns on the paper's website had been deleted.

Stalin couldn't have done it better…

The man got nailed for maintaining his integrity in his international reporting, most specifically about the crisis in the Middle East. Whatever `errors' he might have committed personally or professionally, Jensen, is, by any standard, one of the best international reporters in the United States. He gave the Rocky Mountain News - and the state of Colorado - an understanding of international affairs it was otherwise generally lacking. With his columns, Denver was almost the cosmopolitan city it longs to be. Without him, it's back to hick town again. With the exception of Robert Fisk, I can think of no journalist associated with the mainstream media who knows his subject as well - and has consistently reported on the world with such honesty and integrity as Jensen. This applies not only to his Middle East reporting, unique for its unwillingness to go soft on Israel, but for every issue he's covered over the last 12 years.. Whether it concerned the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Gulf War, the tragedy in Rwanda, the growing gap between the world's rich and poor, Jensen has called them as he sees them.

My mind wanders back to a forum in the fall of 1990. It was on the future of the Soviet Union. Gary Hart participated, as did Tom Rowe I believe, then Dean of the Graduate School of International Studies, along with Jensen. They were all interesting, but Jensen came to the point: the country would collapse within a year. History suggests Jensen had a pretty good point.

How he has managed to accumulate such a fine discerning eye for current events that emerge with lightening speed - and stay on top of them all - I'll never know. His reporting at the News- a newspaper that as one of its own reporters put it `has no bottom' - certainly went against the tide… At times - not knowing or caring to know the paper's internal dynamics - I'd think, `well, it's smart to have Jensen on board. The paper can claim balance - and in the process, keep folks like me who consistently think about canceling my subscription - from bolting.

Nor do I know the details of what specific pressures he has been under because of his Middle East reporting, his unflinching criticism of Sharon, his sharply critical analysis of Arafat, his most recent reporting on both the Israeli military offensive and Palestinian suicide bombing. How many delegations visited the paper calling for Jensen's head? The letters to the editor and those on his email website give some indication. You can be sure that the pressure from the outside, especially from some of Israel's more enthusiastic and uncritical supporters of which this town has its fair share, has been unrelenting and that tonight - or whenever it is that they learn the news - they'll be dancing in the streets. Their gain is Denver's loss.

You must remember something about him: Jensen is no leftist and never has been. If you read his columns carefully one learns he has no particular aversion to the US (or any other) government using force when necessary to keep order. His critique of US policy in the Middle East [Israel and Palestine] seems to result from his logic that the current policy with its heavy reliance on Israel does not make long-term sense… But left, right or center, Jensen knew his international affairs and dished his views out 3 times a week year in and year out with amazing consistency and skill. Long ago I gave up my subscription to The Nation more out of boredom then political differences. But I've never been bored with Jensen and even when I disagreed with where he was taking an article, I almost always genuinely learned something.

I have a certain picture of Jensen in my mind. Not particularly immodest, as irascible personally as his columns are politically, a loner of sorts, the last person in the world who would want a solidarity movement built in his support. But let's do exactly that. I want Holger back. I miss his reporting already. The world is painful enough without at least getting small doses of the truth now and then. He provided us that and more. It's our turn to give back to him."

hope you liked it.. ;)

[Capitalist Imperial]

angi, my arguements have not been picked apart long ago, most of the arguements in my last post were mere facts and real-world situations that leftists really can't respond to, also, you have no idea of our leftist medias place in our country, because if you did you would know that for the most part our media is liberal and seeks to expose military blunders, and if you feel you kneed to self-proclaim "scores" for "tour side", be my guest, but no one except your other delusioned commie friend will recognize them, by the way, all those articles you quote can be chalked up as propoganda, and again, i don't know where you came up with the notion that somehow we get a "limited" access to world history, could you be more specific? The US has the same information resources that your country does, at least, probably more, so, did you just pull that claim out of your, what do you aussies callit... your bum?

[Fabi]

Capitalist Imperialist,
although i might not totally agree with either Greadius nor Angie a 100% i still do appreciate that they are able to lead a half-way civilized converstation.

i, as already mentioned before, had history classes in an american high school and did notice that there are no discussions about the things you learn. also we didnt get a chance to question any of the information they taught us. we just rushed through hundreds of facts without understanding any context whatsoever.

It also seems a little, to be polite, DUMB to simply consider all the articles 'leftist propaganda'. i for my part read different newspapers and articles with a wide range of opinions and perspectives.
even the reader's of the Denver Rocky Mountain News themselves noticed that there was something fishy about Jensen's departure.

that's it for now...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Fabi, my responses may be broad, and sonetime when I have time to get more in depth on these posts i will, but i din't see how telling someone with who's political view differs from yours that he/she should be "wiped off the face of the earth", "exterminated", or the like, and those personal attacks is exactly what angie expresses to me near the end of her posts, if that what you call civilized? if so, perhaps we should review our respective definitions of "civilized"

[Fabi]

she stayed civilized until you enraged her... and she told you to fuck off in a very sophisticated way, you gotta admit that... ;)
and we already talked abou that one anyway...

and btw, i am not communist or socialist... (and neither a real capitalist or anarchist, or whatever) as of now i am still in the process of finding out what i believe. and i dont think that labels are really of any help there...
i just know that simple things simply piss me off... like the fact that the hundred richest have more money than all the other 6 billion combined... (and even if that number is inaccurate, i wouldnt think that it is waaay off...)

[Capitalist Imperial]

i think those 100 richest for the most part earned it and in their earning such $$ contributed to the world economy both in terms of money and inventions, I can appreciate that you are still searching for your stance, but insinuating that capitalists should be destoyed, crushed, eradicated, etc, etc was not a provoked response, and was not on par with any of my arguements, by the way, i don't think that suggesting one should be killed/destroyed because he/she disagrees with your point of view is a "sophisticated" way of telling someone off

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:08 am on May 15, 2002
i think those 100 richest for the most part earned it and in their earning such $$ contributed to the world economy both in terms of money and inventions, I can appreciate that you are still searching for your stance, but insinuating that capitalists should be destoyed, crushed, eradicated, etc, etc was not a provoked response, and was not on par with any of my arguements, by the way, i don't think that suggesting one should be killed/destroyed because he/she disagrees with your point of view is a "sophisticated" way of telling someone off

Oh but capitalist should be.

The only thing they think of is money, and a fair change isnt
given to everybody. Only a few people get a fair change the rest can work as slaves for them.

Capitalist Imperial I wish you could see, that the system you are defending is ripping apart this world.

I dont come with dumb " facts " of people wich it have worked with. I know there alot of people that got ripped of by the slaves
of capitalism.

And now instead of writing your facts on che lives over and over
just sit down for a minute and think bout this sytem you are supporting so deeply...and then go look in a poor section of your town and think with yourself " Is this Capitalism " ?

[Capitalist Imperial]

What is the better alternative, a system that strips you of your freedom of choice to do what you wish with your life? where the corrupt government allows for living standards across the whole country that mirror americas poor neiborhoods? that is communism, an oppressive state-contrloed regime that strips one of freedom of choice and what they want to do with their lives. Oh,and don't bother speaking out against the government, that simple protest is a crime, incredible! most people that post here have never actually experienced it, and those that have are mostly pro-capitalist

[Capitalist Imperial]

Its amazing the tendency of communist sympathizers to blame the plight of third world nations on the USA, especially when many of these countries have been in existence at least hundreds of years longer than the US, but never had the drive or government to allow themselves to progress in the world and spur their own empires to greatness, not out of choice, but abiblity, mind you, and instead wait for one of the youngest countries around to rise to power and revolutionize the world, and then blame it for their plight, that is what we have here, incredible!!! And then these same hypocrits enjoy electricity, computers, and the internet, probablty wear blue-jeans, and then critisize the empire that made these and many other inventions available to them, hypocricy at its finest, lets talk facts, not theory

[concerned]

It is always the easier solution to blame everything on the rich and powerful. The US as the only super power left have to put with all the blame for every little thing that goes wrong in the World. If the US hadn't existed, or hadn't been as successful, then you people would find another country to put the blame on for everything, it is always easiest that way.

Yea, let's forget the fact that the US contributes greatly in foreign aid and it's in absolute dollar terms by far the most altruistic nation on earth. Let's forget about all the good and all the useful inventions that the US has contributed to humanity, and try to find and focus on something negative. Let's forget about the facts, it's not about facts with you people anyway, let's just get in to the non-ending theoretical rethoric of how great people live in socialism and how the US oppresses everyone.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Exactly, Concerned!! Thats the difference between Commies and Capitalists, we can present real-world situations and facts to support our system, and they mostly talk theorhetical to try to support a system thats a proven failure in reality over and over

[Fabi]

YAWN... im relally tired... but i think thats not the only reason why the two of you dont make any sense at all....

i gave you facts, im not a 'commie'--- get a life...

im trying that one right now, too... ;-)

[Capitalist Imperial]

I think we make pretty good sense, you just don't want to acknowledge it, and what "facts" you do give are mostly based on superfluous data manipulated to create anti-capitalist propoganda

[Capitalist Imperial]

% of americans w/ college degree: 24%, worlds highest proportion

[Guest]

Capitalist Imperial college grad guy- I'M NOT 12 YEARS OLD, FOR YOUR INFORMATION!!! I'M 13!!! (Just getting things straight.) You people have been rambling on for quite a while now. It's hard to keep track of all the arguments. I just wanted to offer my thoughts on why communism has failed. In communism, people see no immediate benefits for their hard work. This wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that by nature we are GREEDY and SELF-CENTERED and only care about ourselves. In capitalism, people work to help themselves, so they feel that their work is worth something. Of course, it doesn't help poor people in other countries. I guess I'm just trying to tell everyone here that communism looks good on paper, but due to human nature, it is destined for failure. NOW, IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF PEOPLE CARED MORE FOR OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, WHO ARE STARVING!!! I think that we must work together to help the people of the world (don't ask me how). It will be very hard, though, if isolated capitalists prevail. Those are just some of my ideas. I'm sorry that I'm not the smartest person in the world and that I don't even have a diploma because I'm still in the seventh grade, but I will say this- THANK YOU, ALL YOU PEOPLE, FOR NOT SITTING AROUND ALL DAY BEING LAZY AND DARING TO VOICE YOUR OPINIONS!!! If the people in my school gave a quarter of the thought they spend on clothes, movies, and money to trying to create a better world, I'd be impressed to no end. Unfortunately, though, most people here are a bunch of ignorant, complacent kids who think that the world's greatest dilemna is how their hair looks. HELP!!! WHAT CAN BE DONE!?!
I often wonder about that.

[Nateddi]

Listen Guest,

Do you honestly think that someday we will all live in a capitalist paradise where the only ones (or 95%) of those who are poor, are poor for the fact that they are lazy?

Face it, the only ones who are lazy are the rich at the top. Here in capitalism, all the hard work is taken for profit by the bourgeious, and paid only enough to provide basic human needs (in developed capitalist countries that is). Face it, we need most of the world to be 3rd world for capitalism to succeed. Where would Nike be if it wasn't for the millions of people they exploit for cheap labor. Look at the bigger picture of capitalism. A profit-driven system of economic freedom versus a humanity-driven system of economic democracy will never prevail for the best of the world. Those who are at the top will stay at the top, with better / avaliable medicine, education, living standards, inheritence for their offspring. Those at the ranks stay there because they have poor education, no avaliable healthcare, terrible living standards, etc (speaking of America that is, the 3rd world capitalist engine offers nothing to make it even theoretically possible to make it out of poverty).

Its not the people at your school which spend money on their "personal" needs which is the problem, it is those who distribute the "personal" needs which is the problem. You want profit, you are not going to hire people at American minimum wage for your Nike factory, you will hire people in southeast asia for 10-15x less than you would here. This means profit for you, you are a capitalist success, now you can expand your company into other fields besides shoes. This is the nature of the system. There is no democracy in the economy, the ones at the top (CEO's, chairmen) control with supreme power how the money is made, and where it will go to. No wonder the third world is poor, they are imperialist colonies of American corporate globalization.

Look at cuba pre-1959, Batista sold off land to american companies to exploit the cuban people, this made US love Batista, and brought companies great profits. Fortunately Fidel Castro would wage a guerrilla war on Batista and overthrow him, and redistribute the wealth for his country's needs, not American companies' needs. Since castro seized power:
- Infant mortality rate dropped from 60/1000 to 9/1000
- Life expectancy rose from 55years to 75 years
- Literacy rate rose from 60% to 95-99% (different estimates from different sources)
- Cuba is #1 in the world in: Teachers, doctors, sports instructors, and art instructors per citizen.

They are far from perfect, but this just shows you how capitalism is corrupt for the third world, and how it can be cured.

I know you are not self centered, Guest, people like you generally aren't, its all in our culture. Those who are self centered are those who promoted corporate imperialism and the expansion of global capitalism to exploit and cause the problems in the third world. Even if everyone would donate money, the problems in the third world wont be fixed because you are not looking at the root of the problem. You are pissing on top of a burning building instead of pooring millions of gallons of fire-extinguisher on it, which can only be provided by the government. Bad analogy, but you get it.

[SU37]

Quote: from Guest on 9:21 pm on May 15, 2002
Capitalist Imperial college grad guy- I'M NOT 12 YEARS OLD, FOR YOUR INFORMATION!!! I'M 13!!! (Just getting things straight.) You people have been rambling on for quite a while now. It's hard to keep track of all the arguments. I just wanted to offer my thoughts on why communism has failed. In communism, people see no immediate benefits for their hard work. This wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that by nature we are GREEDY and SELF-CENTERED and only care about ourselves. In capitalism, people work to help themselves, so they feel that their work is worth something. Of course, it doesn't help poor people in other countries. I guess I'm just trying to tell everyone here that communism looks good on paper, but due to human nature, it is destined for failure. NOW, IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF PEOPLE CARED MORE FOR OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, WHO ARE STARVING!!! I think that we must work together to help the people of the world (don't ask me how). It will be very hard, though, if isolated capitalists prevail. Those are just some of my ideas. I'm sorry that I'm not the smartest person in the world and that I don't even have a diploma because I'm still in the seventh grade, but I will say this- THANK YOU, ALL YOU PEOPLE, FOR NOT SITTING AROUND ALL DAY BEING LAZY AND DARING TO VOICE YOUR OPINIONS!!! If the people in my school gave a quarter of the thought they spend on clothes, movies, and money to trying to create a better world, I'd be impressed to no end. Unfortunately, though, most people here are a bunch of ignorant, complacent kids who think that the world's greatest dilemna is how their hair looks. HELP!!! WHAT CAN BE DONE!?!
I often wonder about that.
Oh no its little 13 year old using the the net. Nice cut and paste work,do ya know what any of it means?. Where da get your facts from...?...retrat weekly.Why don't ya get lost ya little bastard,go find other people to anony with your cappie views.

(Edited by SU37 at 10:59 pm on May 15, 2002)

[Guest]

Nateddi, why do hundreds of cubans risk their lives daily to travel in sometimes makeshft rafts to get tot the US???

[Nateddi]

It isn't hundreds daily. And it isn't a percentage of cubans of any significance.

You see, we have immigration problems from many nations, Cuba is just a speckle of it.

Cuba has problems of too many political prisoners (simply for their views), as well as a bad human rights record. The place is no socialist pardise, although you may have thought that I was implying that in my response. I was infact implying that Cuba made great progress of overthrowing imperialist capitalism, and still with an major economic blockade they can still provide for the citizens.

You see, if you know a thing or two about anything, you would know that (and I am sure normal capitalists can agree with me), you would know that it is impossible to live as an illegal immigrant (or any immigrant) who doesnt know english (illeterate) to try to make it and live in the US.

So let me throw the question back to you, and I will answer it for you too. You know that they are going to spend the rest of their life in the bottom ranks of American society, barely speaking english, and toiling at some factory for rent money, some life.

The point is, the Cubans which come here, have wealthy families already living in the Miami area. Perhaps relatives who fled after the revolution or something along those lines.

Unless you have a family or some other form of wealth to lean on, you will fail miserably in the US, and I am sure every Cuban knows that.

I am not sure if you believe me or not, however if you were to research history and the Cuban revolution, all historians will agree that it was a popular revolution.

[Fabi]

and all that talk about from ****** to millionaire is total bullshit by now. It might have been possible at one time, and it still might be possibel in extremely rare cases, such as computer/software pioneers....
but did you know that silicon valley has the highest rate of temp-workers? cause the stupid corporations wanna save money?

Bill Gates can cut down on his PR-charity stuff and instead be fair to his workers... you say he is??? well, maybe, but that's why microsoft chooses the people and then lets temp-agencies hire them for microsoft so they dont get benefits...

and the people who are the richest are NOT the richest cause they work hard... one of disney's sweatshop workers earns as much money in sixteen years of hard labor as disney's CEO earns in one hour... i wonder what he does in that one hour....

i think it is so dumb just do consider everything 'leftist propaganda' .... i gave you so many examples and articles and whatever... c'mon.. you dont WANT to budge and inch... and that is a really dumb attitude.... sorry... but that is true in any case.....

[Fabi]

here's some info to again tell you that you are wrong about the US being the most altruistic country...

"Sometimes a guest who sticks to his or her guns can keep O’Reilly’s audience from being misinformed. When the host claimed (5/8/01) that the United States "give[s] far and away more tax money to foreign countries than anyone else. . . . Nobody else even comes close to us," Phyllis Bennis of the Institute for Policy Studies was thankfully on hand to explain that U.S. contributions per capita were lower than those of any member of the European Union. "That’s not true," O’Reilly inaccurately responded. Actually, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2000 the U.S. gave only 0.1 percent of its Gross National Income as official development aid-- less than Italy, the least generous EU nation. Denmark gave 10 times as much on a per capita basis. Even in real terms, Japan in 2000 gave away a third more aid, even though its economy was less than half as large. "

got to
http://www.fair.org/extra/0205/oh_really.html
for the whole thing...


but, oh yeah... it's all leftist propaganda... i forgot...

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:51 pm on May 10, 2002
News flash,pinkos, the vast, vast majority of Americans are capitalists, and are happy as capitalists, THERE WILL BE NO REVOLUTION. The revolution that occured 200 years ago was fought to escape oppressive regimes like communist nations that tell you where you will work, live, and play, and take away basic liberties like the right to vote for your representatives and speak out against the government. Don't any of you understand??? Socialism looks good on paper, but can never be applied inn reality.The world is not moving toward socialism, its moving towards free market capitalism, because thats what the majority really wants. Thats why america is the worlds most powerful country, with the highest gdp by far, and we like it. If you were a true socialist, you would move to an existing socialist country already. Its cliche, but true, and thats the bottom line.


NEWS FLASH!!
The vast majority of Americans are working class people that are layed off by capitalist corporations such as Enron and Microsoft so they can struggle on the streets without benifits, become drug dealers, and get thrown in jail for selling the dope the CIA allows to flood into minority neighborhoods because of their racist agenda!

Isn't that something?

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 9:22 pm on May 10, 2002
where are you from samaniego, because unlike communism, where they tell you where to work, in The USA if you work hard, you can do anything you want, i don't know who you are talking about whern yoiu say people work "where they can", but in the USA, if you work hard in school and get a good education, you can do anything you want. Those who complain are usyually just lazy and looking for a hand out, no where in the world is there such opportunity to excel and be succesful as in the USA, and everyone pretty much gets an equal chance, so where do you get your logic from?



That's funny. My Uncle Richard has been workign all his life, hard, in working factories, like steel mills. Where is he now? He's an old man, half deaf, liviing with my grandmother. He worked hard, and got physical dammage! No one gets an 'equal chance' in America! You think everyone is lucky enought to have a billionare dad to inherit money from?

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Guest on 6:55 am on May 10, 2002
look yall
u little lenin's angels are pathetic
hey look at me i really believe in socialism and hate all cappies
but! i live in NY, i live in an apartment
i wear abercrombie
i use the public transportation to travel
i like to watch football games
baseball too
yeah the New york knicks
i pay the "big bad" corporations for all my neccessities of daily life to sustain my fragile human body
but of course i am a lefty
and i do hate cappies

isn't that funny?


No, that really wasn't that funny. No real wit to it. Sorry. You just kind of sounded like some dumbass kid with too much free time.

[concerned]

Fabi,
the U.S. gives aid in a variety of ways, the least important being official development aid. Most aid comes from NGOs and individuals. For example Bill Gates just gave several billion to fight aids in Africa, that is never computed on the "official" development aid records because it is coming from an individual. You also have to take into consideration Americans contributing service and aid abroad. Also a lot of the aid that the US gives comes in the form of debt relief, which doesn't get computed either. If you count all these factors, the amount of aid given by the US surpasses that of any other country by far, even in per capita terms. As an example I can bring my country Colombia, the US gave last year 1.6 billion dollars in aid to Colombia, how much did the European Union contributed? 4 million. (400,000 times less in case you need a little help with the math)

And Fabi you cannot just take a particular case and generalize for the whole country. Usually the people who get to CEO positions have worked and studied very hard to get there. And don't fool yourself, work at the CEO level is very demanding, not just any idiot can do it as it seems you believe. There might be some that got there for other reasons, but this is not the norm. The US has a system that rewards hard work and people willing to give the extra effort to better themselves.

And about the "sweatshops" that you are talking about, I believe Greadius already did a terrific job explaing this. So stop yawning, and go back and actually read what he wrote. We cannot be writing about the same things here over and over because you people don't actually want to take the effort to actually read what is written here.

[BananaKing]

So concerned, I take it from what you said that you don't condone sweatshops, or is there no alternative?

How in your opinion can sweatshop labor be eliminated meanwhile living in your right-wing paradise?

-----
http://www.yoursighost.com/members/bananaking/sig2.gif

(Edited by BananaKing at 3:57 am on May 17, 2002)

[Guest]

Oh, Bullshit, I live in San Diego, and I see countless immigrants from mexico, not acclamated to american culture or english, mind you, that start landscaping businesses, become general contactors, open restraunts, etc, etc, they make great money, not billionaires, or even millionaires, no, but six figure incomes, or even 60-70k/ year, all which make for a very successful and comfortable standard of living

[concerned]

BananaKing,
I don't believe I said I either condoned or not condoned sweatshops, so don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said. But we cannot be discussing the same topics over and over just because you people are too lazy to read.

Guest, you bring up a very good point. The American system rewards hard work and if one is willing to put the extra effort you can better your life standard as well as that of others. I am also an immigrant in the US, and through hard work and dedication I've managed to achieve a pretty decent standard of living.

God bless the United States of America!!!

[Fabi]

"The US has a system that rewards hard work and people willing to give the extra effort to better themselves. "

no.

[Fabi]

And i did read the posts...
you obviously didnt.... i think it is great that bill gates donates money and stuff... but why dont you just go and read my other posts cause i already talked about that little criminal... (gates, that is...)

[concerned]

Fabi:

"no"... is that the best answer you can come up with. Anyway, that is just your opinion. We are A LOT much more people that DO think so, and that is why this country has always had elevated numbers of immigration.

And I did read the posts, I wouldn't be referring to them if I didn't. I really enjoyed the way Greadious made fun and destroyed each and every of the arguments brought up here against capitalism. And your response seems to be to ignore those posts and bring up the same issues over and over.

And Bill Gates, oh yes that criminal. Working hard to create all those products that make computers more effective and productive. And giving all those jobs to people who probably otherwise woudn't have one. that bastard! It's criminal.

Oh yes, and Microsoft hires sometimes temporary workers, what a sick bastard. Now I am convinced. (And by the way if you think hiring temporary workers is bad, just look at the employment statistics of Sweden, and you will find that countries who claim to be more socialistic actually tend to have more temporary workers because companies there are still trying to find ways to survive in such an environment and go around the unbelievably high taxes and benefits.)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Fabi on 2:25 pm on May 17, 2002
"The US has a system that rewards hard work and people willing to give the extra effort to better themselves. "

no.


Pure Denial

[Fabi]

come on, just give me a fucking break.... i think we all know that, although used to typing on the computer, most of the threads would be topics of about ten minutes at the most... it takes a really long time to answer and it is really hard to go through all the other posts and answer again and again...

and greadius didnt pick apart everything... we actually had some nice discussion, i think... on a lot of things (such as capital punishment) he agreed with me (if i remember right) and other posts he simply didnt answer to anymore.... and i miss his answers.. ;)

i think if you're lucky you can get somewhere, i dont deny that... i just dont think that the US actually encourages it... already in school, it seemed to me, you were being taught not to think for yourself too much... there wasnt enough time for your own thoughts....

and you only get anywhere by working hard if you dont have too much of an own opinion...

goddammit.... if you go back to the beginning of this thread you might notice that i am quite reasonable and dont think i am always right.... i am just so tired of getting the same answers again and again....
i think what microsoft does with its workers shouldnt get out of control any further.... and i listed numerous examples of other things that disturb me...

i am not saying america is 100% evil... i just think it is not perfect. and i think people should be aware of the problems... just denying ANY problems doesnt lead anywhere.... and of course bashing everything the US (or any other country) does isnt constructive, either... but people should still be able to criticize.....

peace.... dont be angry... in real life we'd probably get along, let's not take all those posts too seriously....

[Capitalist Imperial]

ok, now that makes sense

[Domino]

Well, I'm thankfull I don't live in U$A.

[concerned]

Fabi,
Of course America isn't perfect. There isn't a perfect country and there will never be, there will always be problems and things to improve. We are human beings, nobody is perfect, we will always make mistakes no matter how hard we try not to.

I think however that if you are fair, you have to recognize that despite all, people live relatively well in America compared to any other country. There is a high living standard and people are usually happy with it. You don't see Americans desperately leaving the country to migrate elsewhere to improve their standard of living. You see quite the opposite, you see people risking their lifes to get in. So obviously something must be working right in America, and this cannot possibly be the evil oppressing country that sometimes socialists and communist like you to believe. Or everybody else but you guys must be crazy then.

tete, and I'm thankful you don't live in the USA too.

[Fabi]

just saying you should be able to criticize...
and i think there are certain things i am way happier with, here in germany, and things i liked about britain (as an example)...

for example i think hire and fire mentality in the US is really not too employee-friendly... at least if my information is right, people cant fire you as easily here, as they can in the states...

or maybe pro-life.... just beside all the facts.... how can someone who BOMBS abortion clinics be in any way PRO-life???

[Anarcho]

Fabi- please step away from the massive can of worms. Thank you.

[concerned]

Fabi,

I know the hire- and fire thing doesn't sound nice, but in reality as a matter of fact it makes the whole system and the economy much more efficient. In Colombia we have pretty much a copy of the European system in this respect. It is hard to fire an employee. This affects greatly the economy because companies, knowing this, don't want to hire too many workers in the first place for fear that if things don't go right they will be unable to get rid of employees and the cost will be too high and they will go bankrupt.

Also it has increased used of temporary placement agencies because companies sometimes seem to only want to hire temporary people, giving workers even greater instability.

A lot of good companies have gone bankrupt because of their inability to fire workers and reduce costs when needed. It has created unemployment and loss of jobs.

Also, some employees seem to take advantage of the fact that they cannot get fired easily (it is quite expensive) and don't bring out their best in their job. They just lay back on the fact that they cannot get easily fired. I know this may not happen as much in Germany where a big percentage of the population are workholics, but in Colombia it is another story.

Wo wohnst du in Deutschland eigentlich? Ich habe in Freiburg fast ein Jahr gewohnt, es war wunderschon!!! Ich habe viele gute Freunden in D, es ist ein ganz tolles Land! :)

[Moskitto]

Did you know that Microsoft has a higher proportion of Millionairres than any other major company?

So Bill Gates must be doing something right.

[Fabi]

moskitto,
maybe you're right... but the TEMP workers do NOT count as microsoft employees although they work there... meaning they're not in that number....

also in silicon valley they have the highest rate of TEMP workers...


hey concerned,
i never thought about it that way... i dont know if it's totally right, but i do get your point...

ich wohne in hamburg, also im norden. als kind war ich mal in freiburg. eine wirklich schöne stadt.... what differences do you notice most between colombia, the US and germany?
i spent a year in the US in my junior year of high school (11th grade, that is....)

[Moskitto]

Yes, Microsoft do have a lot of temp workers, but a lot of their workforce are given shares as part of their pay package so that their earnings have a relation to the success of the business, which I think is the way to go.

[Fabi]

yeah, i know bout that.... but that is the reason why they employ more and more temps....

but i know what you're talking about....

[suffianr]

In refernce to IMPERIAL's post (May 10), well, sure, you do have some sensible arguments...But socialism is much, much more than collectivism, worker's rights and class war...It goes further than merely applying marxist-leninist doctrine to daily life...You can be an urban professional corporate-whore working in a huge mutlinational that supports worker exploitation in thrid world countries, and you can still consider yourself as a socialist. The difference between being socialist and being marxist is that true marxism no longer exists, yes, sorry to say, and true marxism was never more than an incredibly amazing thesis/model for a utopian society...Marxism did not, in this sense, fail to achieve it's objectives, but 70 years of Soviet civilization taught us a lot about humanity, and a lot about human nature, which is what being a socialist is all about...A socialist is, must be, acutely conscious/affected/involved in the lives of those around him, he must be concerned about the situational factors that determine his position in society and be ultimately responsible for his actions. If you think this is about textbook Marxism, then, I'd suggest you go back and do more homework...

[Nateddi]

The soviet union did not collapse due to human nature. I still don't see how marx's philosophy is "utopian", and how it is impossible.