Socialist Norway's answer to the lebensborn - And you social

[Solzhenitsyn]

http://forever.freeshell.org/fatherhood/at...ttila.htm#Story (http://forever.freeshell.org/fatherhood/attila.htm#Story)

Norway turns out to be typical socialist utopia after all; complete with concentration camps, savage beatings, insane medical experiments, rapist guards, psychiatric druggings and cover-up. What's really sick is that it happened to 15000 CHILDREN and around 10000 women. These kids were Lebensborn through no fault of their own. Any woman known to have had sex with a German soldier in WWII was declared mentally incompetent and sent to the looney bin. Talk about sexual repression. Where's the compassion and humanity I hear you socialists are famous for? This is decidedly more aggregious than what Pinochet did by far.


(Edited by Solzhenitsyn at 7:51 am on May 9, 2002)

[Moskitto]

you know what? the same thing happened in France, and Belgium, and Luxemburg, and Holland (even the small island the Soviets liberated.)

And what makes Norway socialist? Or any of these policies socialist?

[RGacky3]

You have to remember that Norway was not socialist during WW2, you also have to remember that Norway has a higher living standerd then the U$, in my opinion Norway is a Utopia.

[Solzhenitsyn]

You have to remember that Norway was not socialist during WW2, you also have to remember that Norway has a higher living standerd then the U$, in my opinion Norway is a Utopia.

This all happened right after World War II not during. The socialist government that took over after the Germans left propagated these policies. I bring this up to illustrate that socialism has no specific claim for superior moral and social conscience. They after all locked up 15000 children in a most brutal fashion because women who had sex with German were "obviously" mentally defiecent thus the kids were the same because of heredity. A rascist notion if I've ever seen one.

[concerned]

RGacky3,

And I want to add that the only reason Norway has a high living standard it is because it is a country with very few population and a shit load of oil. Norway was actually doing not that good before they found oil. It has little to do with socialism.

[Imperial Power]

Furthermore Norway is not actually socialist. They are an advanced capitalist country.

[RGacky3]

Imperial power, Norway is socialist, I would know I am Norwigen and half my family is from Norway. Argentina, Mexico, and the middle east countries also have oil, yet they suck, its socialism that makes Norway such a great socialist utopia.

[concerned]

RGacky3,
Norway has WAY more oil than Argentina or Mexico, and WAY less population. Besides it is well known that Scandinavian countries have very low levels of corruption, which is not the case with Latinamerica. Corruption affects economies in Latinamerica greatly.

And I know what you are thinking now, don't try to say that Scandinavian countries have low levels of corruption because of socialism because this is just not the case. It is just the way the people are, why are Scandinavians more blonde than people in Latinamerica? why are they more shy? why do they lie a lot less? why are they more industrious?. It just is, a totally different temperament and mentallity.

An Scandinavian economist many years ago argued to an american counterpart that there were no poor people in Scandinavia (this was more than a decade ago, we both know that right now this is not accurate, and if you don't believe me just go next door to Stockholm and you'll see people living on the streets, I know because I lived there. Sweden has pretty much the same system as Norway, only they don't have the oil, and the economy isn't doing that great is it?).

Anyway, the American economist responded to him, that among the Scandinavians who had migrated to the USA, there weren't any poor people either (and they were completely broke when they migrated).

Things like welfare and unemployment insurance can work more or less well in Scandinavian countries because the majority of the people are honest, hard working, and have a very high moral about work, so they keep working (although they don't have to) and paying their ridiculously high taxes. And then they can afford to have a "big governement" because there is so low corruption. It would NEVER work anywhere else, put that system in America, or Latinamerica, and people will just stop working, period. Most of the people in this World do need incentives to go to work, as if you haven't noticed.

[sabre]

actually the socialism has something to do with the standard of living because if they werent socialist then all of the oil would be concentrated in the hands of the few (like imf and worldbank try to do in latin america) instead of in the hands of the people, which makes a higher living standfard

[man in the red suit]

yes sabre and comrad gacky are right,
socialism is one of the reasons that Norway has a higher living standard than the u.s. It does have a small population. SO WHAT!! this makes things better and furthe proves our point that socialism works better for smaller communities. It is also a fact that 87% of Norwegians are happy with the socialist economy.
The other 13% are unhappy with the 60% income tax.
And don't give me that oppressive government bullshit.
We both know that Norway has a fine democratic government. Freedom of speach exists as well as all the freedoms that you so preciously worship here. There is no more oppression in Norway than there is here in the United States and their burgeois capitalist government.

p.s - Nomar I have started to to save our book to a document on my computer. I have a while to go before it is finished though.

[concerned]

I believe that when the oil is gone, the standard of living of Norway will unfortunately go down sharply, because their whole economy and welfare benefits are right now very dependent on it.

But even though I am a convinced capitalist, I have to say that i agree somewhat with what sabre says. Socialism can work under very ideal circumstances, such as the ones presented in Norway. But these are very idealistic circumstances that actually only Norway has, and are not going to be there forever. In the long run I don't believe the economy is sustainable. They are going to run out of oil sooner or later. Also as people from different cultures migrate into Norway, some of them don't come with the high working morale characteristic of the Scandinavian people, and many of them will come and take advantage of the welfare. It's happening in Sweden quite a lot right now (Sweden has had a lot more immigration than Norway, because Norway has been very restrictive). The immigrants see in these countries the unbelievable opportunity of living without working. And of the ones that work, some of them decide to work "black", as they call it, which means that the government doesn't know about it and so they cannot get taxed (and at the same time they can claim welfare, thus earning illegally double income).

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 2:11 am on May 10, 2002
You have to remember that Norway was not socialist during WW2, you also have to remember that Norway has a higher living standerd then the U$, in my opinion Norway is a Utopia.

Norway is a corrupt playground for ignorant politicians. Socialism ended in the 80's in Norway, when we politicians didn't need to know shit about economics or politics, because of the oil money. We're very rich, tough. But Sweden is much better. They're real socialists. The food costs 1/3 of what it does in Norway.

[Goldfinger]

Actually, concerned and Imperial Power are right. The only reason we have lots of money IS in fact that there are only 4.5 million of us, and because of the oil. The politicians are not socialist, and don't know shit about economics. Sweden, on the other hand, don't have oil money. The government has a very tough time. But it's also the best government in the whole damn friggin' world, and they're very good at economics. I wish other countries could do the same as them, including Norway.

[Sirion]

Norway is indeed a special case in politics. We got oil money, but this won't last forever. However, we also have a huge oil fund, and unless a the right wing gets it's will, Norway will still benefit from this for years to come, and therefore be an ideal state to esablish true socialism in.

Norway was SOMEWHAT socialisticly INSPIRED untill about 1986, when The Norwegian Workers Party, while being a social-democratic party, was quite socialistic, changed their political stands drasticly over a quite short time.

Somethings most Norwegian people don't seem to get when it comes to prices, is that Norway is a high wage country, much higher than Sweden, and that the prices (especially on food) are higher.

The original meaning of this topic is... meaningless. While this is injustice, it has happened everywhere, and were a natural responce. I actually know people that what the article told about has happened to, and I know that this are exaggerations. What mentioned were the extreme cases, and not what happened to everyone. Also, you must remember: The germans had killed thousands of people everywhere. Now, a rethorical question: "Would you be friendly to someone that was the child of someone that had killed, or was allied to someone who had killed your neighbour, friend or family?"

Finally, Norway is not socialist. While The Norwegian Workers Party was the largest party for many years, they were really only bootlicking USA-lovers for many decades (they were originally the first Norwegian communist party), and Norway is today an advanced capitalist nation. However, largely because of the Worker's Party's socialist influence, Norway is today the country in the world listed as the best one to live in, and the class differences are the smallest in the world.
The right wing are, however, gaining influence, and things are getting worse here.

And, yes. I am Norwegian, and have been so all my life, so I claim to know this fairly well.

(Edited by Sirion at 8:38 pm on Jan. 7, 2003)


(Edited by Sirion at 8:45 pm on Jan. 7, 2003)

[RGacky3]

where in NOrway are you from sabre?

recently the labour party made a pact with the farmers party and the christian party,

I don't think however that in the 1980s they gave up socialism like the british did compleatly. I don't think that Norway could have changed from socialism to capitalism so fast, and still benefited from all the socialist polecies as it does now, they must still have some socialism to keep the equality and the high living standard.

Another fact, Norway is one of the highest foriegn aid provider!

[RGacky3]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 6:00 pm on Jan. 8, 2003
where in NOrway are you from sabre?

recently the labour party made a pact with the farmers party and the christian party,

I don't think however that in the 1980s they gave up socialism like the british did compleatly. I don't think that Norway could have changed from socialism to capitalism so fast, and still benefited from all the socialist polecies as it does now, they must still have some socialism to keep the equality and the high living standard.

mabey I'm just too damn patriotic and nostagic.

Another fact, Norway is one of the highest foriegn aid provider!

[Sirion]

Socialism in its true form has never existed in Norway (just as captalism never has, and never will), but the Workers Party did not have the guts to do any major reforms toward socialism under the cold war, and abandoned socialism completely in the middle eighties (today, the party equal to the old Workers Party is The Socialistic Peoples-Party). However, they are still social-democratic, and considered a leftist party (by Norwegian standards, which are a bt more rigid than the usual), and haven't accepted the "curse" of neo-liberalism untill recently, which is (extremely simplified), along with the large amounts of oil, why Norway remains nr. one in standard of living.

The latest years, norway has had a large turover in the politic scene. The largest party suddenly became a right-wing party, and the Workers Party had lost hordes of voters compared to the middle 90's. The good news is that a somewhat more socialistic party, The Socialistic Peoples Party, and that the left are slwly but surely gaining back the voters.

Still, the one true large communist party left, the Red Electors Alliance, has been stable (but very low) through the turmoil.

(Edited by Sirion at 7:33 pm on Jan. 8, 2003)