Plight of the stalinist

[Thine Stalin]

On one hand we have the idealist socialists hating us, because we agree with brutal, harsh tactics, on the other we have the capitalists hating us because we are the capitalist's view of a communist poster boy, stalinists are what the capitalists hate in communists for the most part, maybe a few intelligent capitalists have their own reasoning but most hate it because of the stalinist dictators. We are not accepted by either side because our principles disagree with both sides in their own seperate ways. In alot of forms we have more in common with the nazi's than our communist brethren, but the nazi's are so right wing they're almost left. Most of you socialists think that a perfect communist regieme can be achieved with all the ideals that you want and without all the bloodshed. We want that dream as much as you but we don't think there is such a peaceful way to get there, and so we believe in the tactics that have made the world hate communists. Is that why you are so bitter? Because the stalinists have made the world hate communism?

[CheGuevara]

Yes, capitalism can only be overthrown through a violent revolution. However, it's the Stalinist's excessive use of brutal, bloody tactics after 'capitalism' has been "overthrown" in a country that many other communists don't like, such as myself.

[flames of the flag]

yeah i'd have to agreee, there are some cappies who hoate us just because of stalinism. but it pisses me off that cappies just look at the past to rebuke communism, and ignore the new theories and ideals, they just see stalinism so they can talk about bad human rights in communism. So yeah, i think you do give the rest of us commies a bad rep. but yeah its not your fault that cappies label us so heavily

[yuriandropov]

thine stalin, don't let idealistic 'leftists' tell you that stalin was no good. i'm not a stalinist, but i agree with many things he did. the USSR would be part of the third reich if it wasn't for him. i also agree with you in that, many hard line maxists have a lot in common with nazi's. i can sometimes have a reasonable conversation about politics with a nazi until he starts blabering about racism, thats when the conversation ends. (remember, the 'national socialism' you saw in germany wasn't national socialism, it was facism, something very different). anyway back to stalin, the numbers he's killed have been greatly exaggerated. if its 80million or whatever, wheres the bodies? the people stalin killed in the 30's where usually enemies of the people. its only in the later years of his life that he started to get paranoid and ordered needless killings. stalin tranformed USSR from nothing into a superpower. he was brilliant economist who realised the need to industrialise the USSR. people make the mistake of saying lenin didn't like stalin. this is not true. i've read many of the letters in which he praises stalin for his ruthlessness and loyalty to the bolsheviks. the only quarrel he had with stalin is that he thought stalin held too much power. this was a minor concern of lenins, if it was major, why didn't he have stalin killed? we know lenin had no problems with killing people, "if it is necsessary to kill 9/10 of the population in order to achieve communism, then we must do it" - lenin. the only other problem lenin had with stalin is the way stalin spoke to lenins wife, however, stalin apologised and made up with lenin before he died. anyone who denies stalin has nothing to do with communism is denying marx, lenin or engels had nothing to do with communism. these people are usually young anarchists against any form of establishment and wave the hammer and sickle to protest against war and whatever when they've probobly never done a days work in there life. to them i say, stick to growing your hair long and smoking marajuana. leave the workers revolution to the real men. why do you think there has never been a 'liberal' communist country? because the dumbass liberal peace nick 'marxists' don't have a clue that in order to achieve communism, the bouguaisis must be eliminated as a class and anyone who disagrees, should be a killed. like stalin says, "death is the great resolver, no man, no problem". considering the most popular party in russia is the communist party who are, marxist-leninist-STALINIST, and they pull in about 40% of votes and have just got over 100,000 people to march in moscow on may day, i think there many out there who agree with me.

death to capitalism!
death to the bouguasis!
death to facism!
death to racism!
death to imperialism!
long live socialism!
long live karl marx!
long live frederick engels!
long live vladimir lenin!
long live josef stalin!
long live the working class!
long live the prolaterat revolution!

[CheGuevara]

Stalin killed almost a million party members, and several million more other citizens were killed, mostly starved, because of his policies(somewhere under 10 million). Yes, I agree, claims of his being responsible for 80 million deaths, or even thirty million deaths are ludicrous. However, he was responsible for several million, and I think that's unacceptable.

Yeah, that non-agression pact with Hitler, and then his order not to fire on the Germans when they started attacking on June 21st, were real doozies, weren't they? Trotsky could've done a much better job fighting the Germans.

[Menshevik]

Thine Stalin, I bet it's real hard supporting an murderous lunatic. How can you call yourself a Communist?

[yuriandropov]

don't be so stupid! trotsky, fight the germans? i'll give you seven reasons why trotksy would have lost:
1) he wouldn't have industrialised the country fast enough because he would have kept the NEP. stalin got rid of that because he knew how important industrialising USSR was,
2) stalins economic policy was basically a war economy. soviet factories could churn out tanks like saudi arabia produces oil. under trotsky, the germans would have had a similar amount of tanks, if not more and we all know the t-34 tank and the amount of them, was the war winner.
3) stalin basically put zhukov in charge. trotsky would have been too arrogant and led the forces himself. zhukov was one of the best military strategists of all time. trotsky would have gone for personal glory.
4) trotsky was a jew. hitler would have seen a jew leading the soviet union and would have gone crazy in order to defeat it. even if it meant sacrificing western teritory.
5) my grandfather was in the great patriotic war and when the germans were closing in on moscow, stalin stayed in moscow. this was a great morale booster for the people said my grand father. trotsky would of high tailed it out of there and gone to live in a prosperous country like he did so many time during and before the revolution.
6) trotsky, although led the red army well in the civil war, had no military training. this goes back to my third point, he would of been to arrogant to let zhukov take charge and would of been defeated, especially if hitler would of deployed someone like rommel to lead the forces. which he probobly would of done for reason 4.
7) trotsky wasn't as ruthless as stalin. thats why he lost the power struggle and why lenin admired stalin more. my grandfather used to tell me that because of the atrocities the germans had commited in ukraine, the germans were so scared of what would happen to them. when USSR started advancing, the germans were so scared of soviet reprisals, a large number of them fled the battlefield. this wouldn't of happened under trotsky. he wouldn't of instilled the fear of stalin. after all, as his name says, he was a man of steel.

if it wasn't for stalin, you'd be giving the pledge of alligance to the swastika. because with USSR in hitlers hands, he could of invaded americas west coast and the the world. you should be thankful to stalin you aren't giving nazi salutes now.

[Menshevik]

Stalin killed his Senior Officer staff, he had his soldiers shot on the spot for "insubordination," the only reason Zhukov was put in charge was because he was the only General with brains still in his head! Stalin left civilians to die, he made no effort to protect his people from German invasion. He failed to moblize fast enough; he allowed the Germans to engulf his major cities without flinching. How is that a good wartime leader.

[I Will Deny You]

Oy, how my heart bleeds for you poor murderous wackos.

Violence, in some form or another, will almost undoubtedly be necessary for a communist revolution. But Stalin came into power once the revolution was over. Violence stops being necessary at some point (unless you're a paranoid lunatic, of course).

[yuriandropov]

that comment doesn't suprise me coming from someone with a name like 'menshevik'. we all know menshevism is another word for jewish takeover. the middle class lead the revolution on behalf of the working class? thats the biggest pile of bullshit i've heard in my life. menshevism would change nothing, the middle class would still rule over the working class. menshevism has jack shit to do with communism, i suggest you read marx to find out for yourself. especially read 'a world without jews' and 'the jewish question' to see what marx thinks about a jewish takeover. BTW before you say it, marx wasn't a jew, he was an atheist who was baptised a christian after his family converted. just because he had jewish ancestory, doesn't make him jewish. judaism is a religion not a race.

[Ernest Everhard]

The funny thing is that people outside of the realm of marxism have far more structured and reasoned arguments against communism, socialism, etc, than those examples provided by stalin. The problem is that the only argument you(communists, socialists, etc) choose to confront is the argument against stalinism. You try to set the paradigm at this argument, take a look around, the threads about stalinism are all started by socialist, the big debates about its legitimacy are all amongst leftists. Below are links to two arguments, on in which the moral superiority of capitalism is displayed through a liberal perspective, the second is the liberal criticism of the inherent totalitarinism in socialist theory. Read them both, Stalin was bad, capitalists think so, but he is hardly the reason why socialism/marxism/communism etc suck.


http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=210&start=10 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=210&start=10)

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...pic=138&start=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=138&start=0)

[Menshevik]

So now you're not only a nut-job Stalinist, but you're also a fucking Anti-semite, Yuri? Well, maybe not that extreme, but please, was I correct in sensing a slight hint of Anti-semitism? If I am, please feel free go fuck yourself you prick!

I don't consider myself a Menshevik, but I disagree with Leninism and therefore I am no supporter of Bolshevism.

[Thine Stalin]

In my eyes the entire jewish race has been pro-capitalist and throuought history notorious crooks, I have no sympathy for jews and I hate Israel, they are as whiney as some africanamericans in the U.S demanding compensation because their ancestors were slaves, when all they want the money for is their own personal benifit. The thing that really bugs me is when jews call germany anti-sematic for not supporting israel when jews recieve free housing and yearly compensation for the holocost. I don't hate all jews, I just hate all that the jews have done for history.

[Michael De Panama]

Communists don't oppose Stalinism strictly because it was a "violent" system. Communists mainly oppose Stalinism because it has a ruling class! Our whole fucking objective is to eliminate the division between social classes. If we don't want a capitalist bourgeoisie, we will equally, if not even more so, oppose the life under the rule of someone else who takes complete control over our lives. Stalin WAS a bourgeois leader.

It's unbelievable to see how many Stalinists have been popping up on this message board, even some people who think "I agree with some of what Stalin did". Get the fuck out! This is a proletarian revolution to grant the power into the hands of the majority! None of us want to be ruled by the wealthy minority, and this applies to Stalin and his regime as well.

[CheGuevara]

*Slaps himself for forgetting about the ruling class in Stalinism* (I'm not being sarcastic here)

Yuri, you've strictly defined Judaism as a religion, which is fine, except according to that definition, Trotsky wasn't a Jew either. It's irrelevant for your argument, but I'm just pointing that out.

Yes, Stalin staying in Moscow was the one thing I give him credit for during the war. However, I agree with others about the flaws during the war.

[yuriandropov]

anyone who believes in the talmud, i hate. its as simple as that. if thats anti-semetic then i am. but so is marx. i don't hate jews as people. like trotksy, he's not jewish in my eyes. i hate the talmud. it says that jews are superior to others. marxism is about everyone being equal. i work for the belorussian kgb and worked for the soviet kgb for 10 years. whenever we were investigating corruption, you could bet your ass there was a jew lurking somewhere in the picture. usually pulling the strings, getting the most out of it and doing the least. some would call that clever, i call it exploitation. like thine stalin says, most jews are pro-capitalist, thats because they have bred into them from an early age that they are 'god chosen people' and are therfore free to exploit others. this probobly sounds terribly anti-jewish but its not just how i feel, its the factuel truth. i'm not racist, i hate racism but i hate capitalism much, much more. judaism=capitalism simple as that. BTW menshevik, your not a menshevik, your not a bolshevik, what are you? also, michael de panama, i read your comments on stalin on a previous thread. it made me so angry i punched a hole in my wall and broke my hand. i also have to pay for the hole in my wall. stalin was a marxist-leninist. lenin made stalin. you need to read in depth the works of marx, engels and lenin. then you will understand stalin.

[Michael De Panama]

Um. You punched a hole in the wall because of me? I'm flattered. You do realize that you wrote absolutely nothing to back up your argument that Stalin was a Marxist-Leninist, right? Did you mean to do that? Because, I can just tell you that he WASN'T, and it would be just as strong an argument.

Don't you tell me to read more Marx, more Lenin, and more Engels, because I've probably read more than you have. I don't really like Lenin as much as the next commie in the bunch, so I really don't care if you say that Lenin created Stalin. The thing is, Lenin made very clear that he didn't want Stalin to get into power, because he had too much power. This was one of his last requests before he died. Marx and Engels were the two gentlemen who advocated complete political and economic democracy, where the power is in the hands of the people, and not a dictator like Stalin. You are the one who hasn't read enough Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

You are also very ignorant about the Jewish religion. I'm sure I Will Deny You and Rueben will confirm that nowhere in the Talmud does it state that "Jews are superior creatures", unless you are referring to the countless times it mentions that the Jews are the chosen people of God. All religions are like this. This is to be expected. Hell, communists also think that THEY ARE RIGHT and the CAPITALISTS ARE WRONG! Muslims believe that they are the chosen people of God. Christians believe that they are the chosen people of God. However, I know for a fact that it is not a sin in Judaism to NOT BE JEWISH, such as the Christian belief that those who do not accept Jesus are going to Hell. At least it has tolerance, unlike your Nazi stupid ass. Judaism in no way conflicts with Marxism. In fact, the religion even outlines the humane ways to treat workers.

To say that most Jews are pro-capitalist is a load of bullshit. Most people in general are pro-capitalist! Look at it! I mean, most athiests are pro-capitalist!

Trotsky, by the way, WAS A JEW! Whether or not you want to see him as one, that's what he was. It's a fact. Trotsky was jewish.

There is a lot of hypocracy in you saying that you are hate those who believe in the talmud because they feel superior to everyone. Hating anyone who believes in the talmud is feeling superiority yourself. Marx was a born Jew, who died with a lot of respect towards the practicing Jews, though he didn't agree with them. Had he had a sense of superiority over them such as you do, he would have never believed in anything concerning communism.

Never have I heard a Jew tell a non-Jew that he was better than him because be was Jewish. Many times have I heard a non-Jew tell a Jew that he was better than him because he was not Jewish. Understand?

[Capitalist]

It is finally good to see a true CHE GUEVARA COMMUNIST on this board!

Thine Stalin is what I call a True Communist = Che Guevara Communist

Funny how Hitler has become the most infamous character of the 20th century, yet in my opinion Stalin exceeded Hitler has the most infamous character of all time.

I guess because Hitler scared the shit out of Stalin during 1938 to 1941, and the 1st half of 1942, this makes Hitler the greater evil. Stalin was the Nazi Partner, Appeaser, and later Victim. Sweet Poetic Justice for their takeover of Poland, Lithuania, etc. and attempts on Finland, Romania, etc.

There is no doubt that Stalin would have been screwed without American Production and later Appeasement (all those tanks and war equipment we gave to our communist allies during WW2)

FDR = Churchill = Stalin Appeasers

Hitler was responsible for about 55 million deaths.

Stalin is responsible for about 80 - 100 million deaths.

By the way, Che Guevara was also a Stalinist and a Maoist, and he never received the support of the Trotskyite Communist in Bolivia or Cuba. He even purged Cuba of the Trotsky Communists.

Quite Frankly - I don't see the difference.

They are all communists to me.

Stalin = Che Guevara = Violent Communism = Mao = Fidel

They ought to change Communist day from May 1 to Sept 11.

If you support the likes of Stalin & Che Guevara

Then you support violent attacks against American Capitalism and Imperialism

Then You support the violent attacks on the World Trade Center (American Capitalism) and Pentagon (American Imperialism)

Time to face what you are and what you represent.

If you don't represent this.

Than it is time to study your hero Che Guevara more carefully and discover that the man had the same likes of Stalin and Mao.

Ruthless & Violent Communism

[Dan Majerle]

Yuri and Thine Stalin are anti-semite and are blasphemists. They are also racists and ignorant fools. Malte ban them. Rommel was banned for his racism i think you should od the same with these clowns. Disgusting that they are allowed to partake in our political discussions when their aim is to spread their superficial dogma their parents put on them at a young age to compensate for their poverty or something. Get them out!!!!!!!!

[CheGuevara]

I didn't read their posts extremely carefully, but I think at least Yuri has differentiated between a person Jewish by ethnicity, and one Jewish by religion, and that they're attacking the latter. I think as long as they keep to that, they should at least be allowed to post in the Socialism vs Capitalism forum.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:46 am on May 9, 2002)

[Anarcho]

The problem with differenciating between the concept of Jewish as a religion, and Jewish as a race is that for most Jews, there is no difference.

If I were to ask Malte who he was, I'm sure one of the first things out of his mouth would be "Communist". He identifies with this, enough so that he feels it to be essential to who he is.

If you ask me the same question, one of the first things I say is "Father", as that is one of the most important roles I fill in life right now.

To a practicing Jew, the same question will come with the answer "Jew".

For the Jewish people, to persecute Judaism is to persecute them, just as a campaign against Socialism is a campaign against Socialists.

[Thine Stalin]

You know I find it funny how people are so f*cking bann happy because they don't agree with your ideals. You could bann us, or you could just ignore us, I'm sure there are other closet stalinists on this board who don't have the guts to come out because they see how we are ridiculed for it.

[yuriandropov]

firstly, before i come back with answers, i want to thank cheguevera for being the only person to understand my argument, he may not agree with it, but he knows what i'm saying. i don't like people who beleive what is written in the talmud, i don't hate jews as an ethnic race. i will come back with evidence that, if you take away the anti-semitism, and replace it with anti-christianity and anti-islam, judaism is facism. anyway, my responces. 'marx had respect for jews' not true! read 'a jewish question' and 'a world without jews'. he was like me, he hated the talmud, not the jewish race. also like me, he felt sorry for the jewish prolaterat because there religion is so capitalist, that if they went against capitalism, they would be seen as blasphemers. another thing someone said was, 'stalin killed 80-100million', i've said before, where are the bodies? how come there wasn't a massive decrease in population if there were so many killed? how come there is such a huge percentage of pensioners in the former USSR? wouldn't stalin have killed most of them in the 30's and 40's? it was also said that, 'if you are a stalinist, you agree with sept 11'. well, thats ridiculous. osama is as right wing as it gets. he beleives in the divine right of muslims to rule over others, so therefore, i'm against him. also, osama fought against me and my country in the 80's. i was in afghanistan when i was just 19 in 1981. i doubt i ever saw osama, butif he saw me, he would have killed me and vice versa. and about trotsky being a jew, thats nonsense. he was an atheist. judaism is a reigion not a race. i know i keep saying this but i'm just re-inforcing the fact that i'm not a racist or even a specific stalinist for that matter. dan majerele, are you a marxist? if marx heard you call someone blasphemous, he would laugh at you. we all know religion was designed to keep poor people poor. "its alright that your poor know because when you die you go to heaven" what utter bullshit. also, you sound like a member of the bougausis. are you? that sort of shit usually comes out of a rich kids mouth, "oh, you only don't like jews because your poor and there not". also, saying that i hate judaism as a religion isn't saying i think i'm superior to any jews. i'm not superior to anyone and there not superior to me. anyway, i'll leave with you with the fact that i'm not racist and i don't hate all jews. i hate people who think they have a divine right to be classed as better than someone else. i'll be back with more evidence that the talmud says that jews should rule everone else. or at least, the evidence that senior jews have took to mean that anyway.

[guerrillaradio]

By the way, Che Guevara was also a Stalinist and a Maoist...

Er...where did you get that from?? Guevara was a Marxist-Leninist.

Quite Frankly - I don't see the difference...they are all communists to me...Stalin = Che Guevara = Violent Communism = Mao = Fidel

Your own lack of intelligence serves little in an anti-communist debate, to be quite honest.

They ought to change Communist day from May 1 to Sept 11...if you support the likes of Stalin & Che Guevara...then you support violent attacks against American Capitalism and Imperialism...then You support the violent attacks on the World Trade Center (American Capitalism) and Pentagon (American Imperialism)

Ok, this is just ludricrous generalisation and sweeping statements, a speciality of arrogant American capitalists, in my experience. I do not support the 11/9 attacks, and this board as a whole took a very anti-Bin Laden stance. May I refer you to:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=17&topic=615 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=17&topic=615)

Malte banned anyone showing sympathy for the attacks, and when I challenged him later about it, he explained that he could not condone the mass murder of innocent civillians (or something like that). They're both on General Politics somewhere, I can't be arsed to find the links...

[yuriandropov]

ok, i'm back with quotes and facts. forgive the length of this post and i don't care if you ban me for anti-semitism, just as long as people read the post.

quotes from the talmud:

"the jews are called human beings, but the non jews are not human beings, they are beasts"- baba meza 11 4b

"the akum (non jew) is like a dog, though honor a dog more than a non jew"- ereget rashcrifrod 22.30

"it is permitted to take the life of a gentile (non jew)"- sepher ikkarim III c 25

"if a jew has a non jewish servant or maid who dies, one should show no sympathy to the jew. tell the jew 'god will replace 'your loss' as he would replace one of his one oxen or asses"- jene dae 377,1

i could go on and on but for now, we'll leave it there. no lets take a look at some jewsih quotations about jews:

"nations will gather together to bring homage to the people of god. the whole fortune of nations will pass into the hands of the jewsih people. men will march behind the jewish people in chains as captives and will prostate before it" - isador loeb, le probleme

"give me the power to issue and control the money of the nation and i care not who makes the rules" anselm rothschild

"everything is jewdified. our ideas animate everything. our spirit reigns oer the world. we are the lords"- dr karl munzer, the way to zion

those were all quotes by jews.

and now to top it all off, a quote no-one can deny:

"what is the practice of judaism? a practical passion and greed for profit. th what can we reduce his religius worship? exthortion. what is his real god? cash!"- karl marx, guardian july 1924

many of you may be maoist, stalinist, leninist, trotskyist etc. but surely all of you must be marxist. you can't deny the thoughts of the founder of the movement.

the fact of the matter is this. the holocaust was the greatest human tradedy in history. never has a more inhmane act been commited. but it was commited agaist working class jews. from the slums of warsaw and such. the jews with the money f****d off to palestine to kick people out of there land. what causes ant-semitism? why have muslims not been persecuted for thousands of years? why not chritians? look at what jews have done in history. do i have to remind you of the 'experiments' they were carrying out on black people in south africa? but there justified becasue there jews and the were experimented on in the holocaust right? wrong! too wrongs don't make a right. and even if it did, why not carry it out agaist germany, why in south africa? could it possibly be the jewish doctors thought they were inferior and therefore they were justified? or could it be that 'a non jew is a beast' and it is 'ok to take the life of a non jew'.
also, read the book by elizabeth donnon called, 'documents illustrative of the history of the slave trade to america' 1930. this isn't an anti-semitic book, it just proves that a vast majority of slave importers were jewish. conisidense? i don't think so.
do you know why americans have such a pretty picture of israel and not those 'damn terrorist' palestinans? lets look at the following media groups controlled or headed(has a jewish ceo or a majority on the board of directors) by jews:
walt disney
touchstone
hollywood pictures
mirimax
ESPN
time warner
HBO
warner brothers music
time magazine
people magazine
sports illustrated
MTV
sony USA
CBS
ABC
new york times
washington post
wall street journal

USA is israli occupied territory. they control the white house and they control the media. and by controlling the media, they control the people. silly hitler style jewish conspiricy, or fact? fact!

and for those of you who say the talmud doesn't say jews are superior, look at the quotes and look at the situation in palestine. i wonder what would happen if mexico invaded USA, kicked all white people out and said, 'we the mexican superior race deserve more land because of our past 'hardships'" i don't think USA would like it. zionism says basically, jews are more important than muslims so we deserve the land. i'm aware not all jews are zionist, but the vast majority are.

forgive any mispellings and again, forgive the length of the post. i fully expect to get banned after this but i just wanted to prove that my hate for the talmud, zionism, jewish facism and jewish capitalism controlling the media is justified.

[El Che]

Augostos I think we all know that the last thing "liberalsl" are prepared to do is to confront the real socialist proposals, ideals and theorys, on society and for society, respectivly. Your thread about "the moral superiority of Capitalism" is one big joke, yaping about adam smith wouldn`t convince a 3 year old and nither does it touch on any of the core issues, of moral nature, that lie at the heart of the discussion. Its the one type of debate that is avoided at all costs by the suporters of liberal economic practices, and by western societies in general, with particular distinction for US society, who`s elite rulling class does a truly remarkable job in preventing harmful discussion in an open ,"free" and somewhat democratic society.

Get real!

(Edited by El Che at 5:25 pm on May 9, 2002)

[Ernest Everhard]

apparently it hasn't convinced a very may three year olds, as this board stands testament to, but it's convinced more or less the rest of the world.

As for the word "liberal" its not in reference to, lets say, the democratic party of the US, but of the tradition of the west, of which both republicans and democrats (within the US context) are a part of. These liberals have already confronted the "real socialist proposals, ideals and theorys, on society and for society respectively in the form of totalitarian communism. Ridiculously people such as yourself would like to ignore history and propose that those events weren't communism or communistic.

I'll grant you that to object to communism on such historical grounds is only applicable in the real world and not within the context of a bboard on which theory is debated; but despite this polemical favor that me, and as far as I see, reagan, give you, you've done nothing as far as new proposals for a socialist way of life go.
The arguments that are made against communism on this board go far and beyond indictments of the stalinist perversion, they go right at the heart of socialist thought and morality and demonstrate the superiority of the path that capitalism has set humanity upon. Yet the arguments you make against capitalism are never partnered with any alternatives other than the wholesale abolition of said system and the replacement by a communist system that you guys haven't developed theoretically beyond the proposals that were seen in action in the prison camps of siberia.

Your critiques of capitalism are valid descriptions of the faults of capitalism, and I agree that they must be solved. I don't understand how twisted your perspective must be that you've developed this manichean lense in which you posit capitalists as truly evil, as people that don't want to see these problems resolved. We do. What you guys fail to realize is that these problems all existed before capitalism, and they've diminished thanks to it. As reagan lives pointed out, capitalism provides the best frame work to solve these problems.
The debate about the validity of socialism has hardly been avoided. It has pre-occupied western society for the past 150 years, and now its finally done. The west doesn't avoid this debate, it has finished it, the theoretical and empirical evidence was brought out, and socialism was seen as undesirable for reasons beyond stalin's gulags. You are not a minority within the western context because people are repressing your point of view, hardly, you are a minority because from all corners of the world, western and non-western, people disagree with what you say. They disagree because they've seen what it leads to. No stalinism isn't communism as marx envisioned, but communism inevitably leads to totalitarianism, despite your protestations. Not only historically, but theoretically.

[reagan lives]

yeah.

[El Che]

Thank you Augostos, your post perfectly ilustrates my point. Your, like all liberals, only retort to the real socialist theorys and proposals is Marxist-Leninism, which is a retort in and of its self. You say in your confusingly written post, that the theories and proposals in question only work within a totalitarian frame work. You are either ignorante or you are presenting an opinion based, well, based on your subjective "opinion" of what others would do and what path they would chose. So in other words, your statement is void of any meaning. If you are indeed ignorante you should back up your statement with your ignorance so that we may rip it a part, if you are stating your opinion, well that really amounts to nothing.

What you see in action in siberia is totalitarianism, but if you want to see examples of socialist thought, and proposals in action, I can give you the example of "wellfare" and the rights of workers, all of which are socialist conquests or ways in which socialist thought and practice has influenced modern western society. Was the USSR comunist or communistic? The USSR was not communist, because communism is the name given to a predicted social evolution that has not ocured yet. Hence only ignorante people invalidate the legitimacy of that social evolution on the grounds that the USSR says it lived communism or was communist etc... Where there socialist reforms introduced in the USSR? certainly. Does that mean those socialist reforms justify murder, oppression and lack of freedom etc etc? nop.

Furthermore Stalin and other marxist-leninist dictators introduced only minor socialist reforms. They stoped sort of the mark because they were ****s. Workers had no power and as such were unable to effectivate their emancipation. This is the nature and the faith of vanguardist states. Something that should not be confused with the socialist proposals, ideals and theorys on society and for society, respectivly.

What really matters is that you and your kind have been unable to, in truth, give a satisfactory response to the Socialist alternative. Its not easy to change things, but its possible, nothing is static, and people just might come to realise how much capitalism is aint-human and decide to do somthing about it. You cant kill ideas, and this debate is not dead, lol far from it, it is the most pretinent debate of world as we know it today. Capitalism is the dominate mod, and I daresay, the only mod of production in the world. And generation apon genarations will never cease to question it. Just like if communism ever comes to be, people will question it. Nothing is prefect, hence there is always something better. Noone knows the future so I will not make predictions, I only know what I stand for and who I am and thats all I can do, there ends my ethical responsibility. It ends with my vote and my opinion. You have nothing on me and those like me.

"Your critiques of capitalism are valid descriptions of the faults of capitalism, and I agree that they must be solved. I don't understand how twisted your perspective must be that you've developed this manichean lense in which you posit capitalists as truly evil, as people that don't want to see these problems resolved. We do. What you guys fail to realize is that these problems all existed before capitalism, and they've diminished thanks to it. As reagan lives pointed out, capitalism provides the best frame work to solve these problems."

Reagan lives says "capitalism was designed" lol... Anyway that "statement" of yours shows how little you know about what we critisise and propose. Socialist reforms can mitigate some problems, but the real problem is capitalism its self. Why cant you people understand that? it just doesn`t penetrate those thick heads of yours. Capitalism, despite its evolution over 700 years, at a fundamental level, remains the same. Same laws, same simple principles. Thats why you can qoute adam smith and others of similiar time frame with some relevance, thats why protectionism still has some use to those who have the power to get away with it. Capitalism can not solve its self. That is to say that it is in and of its self a problem and an injustice. You say nothing else is possible, I say a better world is possible.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist on 11:56 pm on May 8, 2002
It is finally good to see a true CHE GUEVARA COMMUNIST on this board!

Thine Stalin is what I call a True Communist = Che Guevara Communist

Funny how Hitler has become the most infamous character of the 20th century, yet in my opinion Stalin exceeded Hitler has the most infamous character of all time.

I guess because Hitler scared the shit out of Stalin during 1938 to 1941, and the 1st half of 1942, this makes Hitler the greater evil. Stalin was the Nazi Partner, Appeaser, and later Victim. Sweet Poetic Justice for their takeover of Poland, Lithuania, etc. and attempts on Finland, Romania, etc.

There is no doubt that Stalin would have been screwed without American Production and later Appeasement (all those tanks and war equipment we gave to our communist allies during WW2)

FDR = Churchill = Stalin Appeasers

Hitler was responsible for about 55 million deaths.

Stalin is responsible for about 80 - 100 million deaths.

By the way, Che Guevara was also a Stalinist and a Maoist, and he never received the support of the Trotskyite Communist in Bolivia or Cuba. He even purged Cuba of the Trotsky Communists.

Quite Frankly - I don't see the difference.

They are all communists to me.

Stalin = Che Guevara = Violent Communism = Mao = Fidel

They ought to change Communist day from May 1 to Sept 11.

If you support the likes of Stalin & Che Guevara

Then you support violent attacks against American Capitalism and Imperialism

Then You support the violent attacks on the World Trade Center (American Capitalism) and Pentagon (American Imperialism)

Time to face what you are and what you represent.

If you don't represent this.

Than it is time to study your hero Che Guevara more carefully and discover that the man had the same likes of Stalin and Mao.

Ruthless & Violent Communism
Michael De Panama, who made the post right before yours, is more of a Che Guevara than Thine Stalin could ever be. Che didn't like the USSR. He also went to pains to avoid any civilian deaths, so your whole 9/11 argument is complete bullshit. Osama bin Laden made a name for himself as an anti-Soviet. Find me one shred of evidence of communist influence on the Taliban. No wonder you said, "They are all communists to me." Your mind is so simple that you assume all people who have grievances with the US are the same, whether they overthrow a ruthless dictator who was supported by the US and hated by his people so that workers can have a better life, or they kill civilians because we're not Muslim enough.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:00 pm on May 8, 2002
anyone who believes in the talmud, i hate. its as simple as that. if thats anti-semetic then i am.
Then you are. Douchebag.


Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:00 pm on May 8, 2002
whenever we were investigating corruption, you could bet your ass there was a jew lurking somewhere in the picture. usually pulling the strings, getting the most out of it and doing the least. some would call that clever, i call it exploitation.
Unless the corruption involved the sale of cocaine, in which case it was being sold by either the Italian mob or a bunch of Hispanics, and then would be bought by them darkies.


Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:00 pm on May 8, 2002
like thine stalin says, most jews are pro-capitalist
Jewish people make up 2% of the American population, but made up more than 50% of the Communist Party during the Cold War. Some counts have shown that almost four out of five leaders of the New Left were Jewish.


Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:00 pm on May 8, 2002
they have bred into them from an early age that they are 'god chosen people' and are therfore free to exploit others.
You'd be hard pressed to find a document that's more anti-slavery than the Torah. And believing that they are G-d's chosen people doesn't mean that Jews are free to exploit others. It doesn't mean that they are free to do whatever they like. It simply means that they believe the Messiah will be Jewish.

It used to be said (and to a certain degree, it still is) that all Jews were commies. It was a blend of anti-semitic and anti-commie propoganda. Now some shitheads are saying that all Jews are capitalists. I'm not a naive person and I understand that idiocy, ignorance and anti-semitism are here to stay, but I would appreciate it if you anti-semites could at least be consistent. Either we're all capitalists or we're all commies. Take your pick, but you pondscum can't have it both ways.

[Ernest Everhard]

What then are the socialist proposals for improving society, in my eight months on this board I've yet to hear one. Indulgme, please.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 8:31 pm on May 8, 2002
In my eyes the entire jewish race has been pro-capitalist and throuought history notorious crooks
I'm a member of the Jewish race, and I'm not a crook. Neither was Luxemburg, Trotsky, Marcuse, Hoffman, Rubin . . . etc. And the reason that Jewish in "history" were called crooks is that they were forced into usury because they were not allowed to have any other jobs. For every Lansky there's a hundred Heyms.


Quote: from Thine Stalin on 8:31 pm on May 8, 2002
I just hate all that the jews have done for history.
You want history? Find me another group of people living during the time of Khazaria that let people practice any religion they wanted to. In almost every place you look in Europe (where most Jews are from) since the birth of Christ that has tolerated many relgions, there were Jews. Not every single place, but most. Moorish Spain. Pre-Crusade Languedoc. Take your pick.

Want some modern history? Jewish people worked harder than most ethnic groups to help black people during the civil rights movement. Many of the doctors who are working on cures for deadly diseases are Jewish . . . of course, not all of them are, but certainly more than the 2% of the population that we make up.

If you want some history that's a bit more specific, Che's biography would be a great place to look. You may not have any sympathy for Jews at all, but he sure did when he was in school.

[El Che]

"What then are the socialist proposals for improving society, in my eight months on this board I've yet to hear one. Indulgme, please."

You can`t be serious. I dont wish to be simplistic and I have not the time, or patience, to do what you ask without being so. If your really interested read Marx, then read other Marxists (skip Lenin :P). Its interesting reading on any number of levels. And of course its not the bible, Marx may have got alot of things wrong, but if you aren`t dogmatic then thats no problem. Niether is Marxist theory static, it does change and it does evolve and revises its self.

That in what concerns Socialism, but if we got outside socialism, we can speak for example of Chomsky, who`s positions in what concerns democracy, US interventions and the crimes of capital boardly represent the concensus within the Left, even the non marxist left. I think his ideas are particularly interesting in what concerns civil participation and the way a democracy should run, its also simple and easy to understand, therefore accessible. Though as I have said, I believe the answer lies in the progressive socialisation of society, culminating, hopefuly, with the world wide transition to what would be best described as communism

[Menshevik]

Stalinist anti-semites: the Talmud was written thousands of years ago, I know of no one (not even orthodox Jews) who takes it word for word. Jews do not believe that they are better than everyone else and that when the time comes they will be the only ones left standing. Again, thousands of years ago this was the case, but it isn't now. Your argument that all Jews are crooks and they should be abolished disgusts me. If you are against organized religion entirely, why do specifically degrade Judaism? No, I am not Jewish so I am not biased in that way, but I am somewhat biased against anyone who tries to spread hate. You need help if this is really how you feel.

And for the record I don't consider myself a communist, but more a Communist Anarchist.

[reagan lives]

"Thank you Augostos, your post perfectly ilustrates my point. Your, like all liberals, only retort to the real socialist theorys and proposals is Marxist-Leninism, which is a retort in and of its self. You say in your confusingly written post..."

I'm sorry, I just found this too funny.

"...that the theories and proposals in question only work within a totalitarian frame work. You are either ignorante or you are presenting an opinion based, well, based on your subjective "opinion" of what others would do and what path they would chose. So in other words, your statement is void of any meaning. If you are indeed ignorante you should back up your statement with your ignorance so that we may rip it a part, if you are stating your opinion, well that really amounts to nothing."

El Che, I know that you've participated in discussions about the necessary connection between communism and totalitarianism before. The fact that Agusto doesn't think it's necessary to repost the entire argument in every thread doesn't mean you can hide from it.

"What you see in action in siberia is totalitarianism, but if you want to see examples of socialist thought, and proposals in action, I can give you the example of "wellfare" and the rights of workers, all of which are socialist conquests or ways in which socialist thought and practice has influenced modern western society."

I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I think what you're saying is that the things that happened in socialist nations in the 20th century have nothing to do with socialism, but the advances that happened in the capitalist world have everything to do with socialism. I have no use for this sort of self-serving bullshit. Alright El Che, I DO want you to give me the examples that you promise here. In your first paragraph you lambast Agusto for not fully backing up summaries of arguments that he has made before, and yet here you spit out this lunacy without any kind of qualifications.

"Where there socialist reforms introduced in the USSR? certainly. Does that mean those socialist reforms justify murder, oppression and lack of freedom etc etc? nop."

Ah, it's starting to become clear. "Murder, oppression, and lack of freedom" in the USSR had nothing to do with socialism, but the same things in America unequivocally indict capitalism. Do you realize the relativism of your positions?

"This is the nature and the faith of vanguardist states. Something that should not be confused with the socialist proposals, ideals and theorys on society and for society, respectivly."

NO, El Che. The nature of the states that have attempted to institute socialism SHOULD always be considered when we talk about these "proposals, ideals, and theories." Theories are only as good as their practice. You self-styled socialists like to write off the massive atrocities that were a DIRECT RESULT of socialist attempts during the 20th century as mere "coincidences" or something like that. I've shown multiple times on this board that there is a necessary connection between the ideals you espouse and a totalitarian state structure (and my argument has nothing to do with "human nature"). You've not only ignored my argument, but you choose to address Agusto as if it never happened. Which, I suppose, is more or less your standard approach to history.

"What really matters is that you and your kind have been unable to, in truth, give a satisfactory response to the Socialist alternative."

I don't know, I have 300+ posts here that I'm pretty proud of. But that doesn't even matter, because history has given the "satisfactory response" for us.

"Reagan lives says "capitalism was designed" lol... "

What's that?

"Capitalism, despite its evolution over 700 years, at a fundamental level, remains the same. Same laws, same simple principles."

Are you serious? Think about this...I'll give you the chance to take it back.

"Thats why you can qoute adam smith and others of similiar time frame with some relevance..."

Adam Smith, who wrote the Wealth of Nations 700 years ago...and by the way, aren't you the one who's telling us to read Lenin to provide us with a modern socialist alternative??

"Capitalism can not solve its self. That is to say that it is in and of its self a problem and an injustice."

How so? Marx disagrees with you, by the way.

"Niether is Marxist theory static, it does change and it does evolve and revises its self."

I agree. For instance, it evolved into Stalinism. And I'm glad that you bring up Chomsky next, who also fails to ever provide any solutions for the problems he observes.





(Edited by reagan lives at 10:37 pm on May 9, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:34 am on May 9, 2002
They ought to change Communist day from May 1 to Sept 11.

If you support the likes of Stalin & Che Guevara

Then you support violent attacks against American Capitalism and Imperialism

Then You support the violent attacks on the World Trade Center (American Capitalism) and Pentagon (American Imperialism)


Though I will admit that I agree with you that a Stalinist should probably see the attacks on September 11th as a good thing, I must point out that you are wrong about something. The attacks on September 11th were NOT an attack against capitalism. Osama Bin Laden is one of the most successfull bourgeois businessmen in the world. If he were truly against American capitalism, he would have attacked the World Trade Organization, rather that the World Trade Center.

Che wasn't a Stalinist, by the way. He wasn't really a Maoist either, but he DID study a lot of his guerilla warfare tactics and had respect for him in that way. Che got into a lot of trouble for making comments AGAINST the communist regime in the Soviet Union. It went so far that Fidel took away his Cuban citizenship.

Stalinists, don't you find it funny how all the capitalists want to view you as the true communist?

Yuri, Marx developed his respect for the Jews later in his life. He took back all that he had written about the Jewish religion, although he still believed that society should be secular. He was never convinced that the Jewish ideology is the correct one, but he developed a bit more understanding of it as he looked into it more and debated with rabbis and such.

Menshevik asked you something I thought was very important:
"If you are against organized religion entirely, why do specifically degrade Judaism?"

I really want to hear your answer to that.

Personally, I'm not against organized religion. I think that if I have the right to believe that communism is the correct political ideology, then others should have the right to belive that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhim, Hinduism, Daoism, Grecco-Roman Paganism, or anything else they want is the correct relgious ideology. I don't mind people having beliefs. I don't mind people having capitalist beliefs. Hell, I don't even mind if people have racist beliefs against hispanics or something. The only time I will ever mind is when they impose their beliefs on me. The only time I will ever mind that someone has a religious belief is if they FORCE that belief on me (Jews, by the way, don't do this as much as Christians and Islamic folk. There haven't been too many Jewish missionaries out there, have there? But those that do this are not representative of the rest of the religion's followers. So let's not be idiots about it, kay?). The only time I will ever mind that someone has capitalist beliefs is if they force it on me. The only time I will ever mind that someone has racist beliefs is if they force it on me, and oppress me for being hispanic. Do you undertstand? What part of this seems unreasonable to you?

[El Che]

RL, you say you`ve showen that socialism in practice can lead can only work within a totalitarian frame work... This is to funny to be be true, but I expect that what you mean, is that you`ve showen this to your statisfaction. Trust me when I say, you have showen nothing.

You should do work home on Socialism, that will enable you to realise the enormities your saying, I dont really feel like wasting my time explaining them to you.

"I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I think what you're saying is that the things that happened in socialist nations in the 20th century have nothing to do with socialism, but the advances that happened in the capitalist world have everything to do with socialism. I have no use for this sort of self-serving bullshit. Alright El Che, I DO want you to give me the examples that you promise here. In your first paragraph you lambast Agusto for not fully backing up summaries of arguments that he has made before, and yet here you spit out this lunacy without any kind of qualifications."

What further back up do you need? I give you examples in practice, in reality. Its a solution of compromise, forced or brought about by the labor movement and socialist sell outs know as reformists. Reforms that are of course socialist in nature. Some think its enough to give wage slaves better wages, and to force them to work less etc, I do not. Regradless it is better then nothing, and the are importante victories.

"Ah, it's starting to become clear. "Murder, oppression, and lack of freedom" in the USSR had nothing to do with socialism, but the same things in America unequivocally indict capitalism. Do you realize the relativism of your positions?"

What I realise is that you have no idea what your talking about. I indict capitalism, on charges against capitalism, I dont need to confuse it with any type of political system like you do.

"Reagan lives says "capitalism was designed" lol... "

What's that?


Capitalism, in case you didn`t know, wasn`t designed. It happened. It was only after it happened that theorists started to study it to find out in what way it operated and which was the quickest path to economic domination and the inherent imperialism. Did you even read the wealth of nations? I just think its funny when you say that capitalism was desgined to solve problems. First it wasn`t designed and secondly its purpose is to dominate and to obtain power and wealth by means of economic pratice. Both by an elite within a society and by some nations over others. Your romantic fantasies about the moral nature of capitalism, how it promotes democracy, etc, are nothing but propaganda that has been shuved down your throat in order to defend the established ruling class and ruling nations. Its bullshit that you bought for gold.

Poor reagan lives.

[yuriandropov]

i thought that arguing or discussing was a two way thing? i give you things to answer and you answer them, then you give me things to answer and i answer them. it seems i'm only living up to my end of the bargain here, but, anyway, i'll answer the remarks. about jews and communism. this was a myth thought up by facists in order to stop the working class revolution. the working class in many countries is quite anti-semetic and facists said that 'if your supporting communism, youre supporting judaism' most notable example would be hitler. the other thing that connects judaism to communism is internatinalism. something that both say is good. personally, i am not for the jewish idea of a world superstate. i believe countries should keep there boundries, but just cooperate more. the last thing that connects jews with communism is the myth that marx was a jew and the fact that many mensheviks were jew. although in my eyes, mensheviks aren't communist. most people reject the idea of communism=judaism now mainly because of the lefts support of palestine, USSR's bad treatment of jews and the fact that the russian communist party top brass have been known for there anti-semetic outbursts. someone says no-one did more for blacks than jews? all i'm saying is check out what the south african doctors did to the black guys down there. also, the 'new left' has many jewish leaders. well, the new left aren't really communists. there more like social democrats and we all know lenin called social democrats social facists. i will deny you, my english isn't so good so forgive me if i;m wrong, but i detected racism when you addressed corruption. you may have been sarcastic but calling blacks 'darkies' is racist in which case i won't discuss anymore with you. and i'm going to point out one last time cause i obviosly am not getting this point across, JEWS ARE NOT A RACE, THERE A RELIGION!!! do you call christians a race? or muslims? no, so why are jews different. michael de panama, you are right to an extent when you say marx discussed judaism with rabbis and relaxed his ill feeling. but he by no means took back what he sayed. what he said was, at least the orthodox jews were jews for the right reason, to try and live a better life in the eyes of god. but he still stood firm on the fact that most 'other' jews didn't really care about there religion, they just abused it for personal gain. finally, i am against all organised religion but i single out judaism for the reasons i gave in the previous two posts. i don't know if theres any jews on here, but if there are, can you expain some of the quotations i've posted? can you explain why your hated so much? can you explain why marx hated your greedy ways? can you explain why jews did those 'experiments' on blacks in south africa? can you explain why jews had such a prominent role in the slave trade? can you explain why you feel it is right that you should live on other peoples land? can you explain why thousands of muslims have been willing to take there own lives in the past 50 years just to kill you? can you explain why you control the US media and, coninsidense, the US is the only country to support your so called 'jewish state'? you answer these questions and i'll answer any of yours about communism, stalin, lenin, anti-semitism or whatever.

[Ernest Everhard]

and despite that el che hasn't given us any examples of socialist policy proposals. Even the "socialistic" reforms you name are all justified by Smith and Mills who see them as benefiting the commonwealth by preserving competition. After all it was marx, the father of modern socialism, that discouraged what you would call socialistic reforms.

[reagan lives]

Poor El Che.

[I Will Deny You]

i thought that arguing or discussing was a two way thing? i give you things to answer and you answer them, then you give me things to answer and i answer them. it seems i'm only living up to my end of the bargain here
I'm not sure who that was directed towards since you didn't put anyone's name there, but if there's something that someone hasn't answered you need to be specific.

about jews and communism. this was a myth thought up by facists in order to stop the working class revolution. the working class in many countries is quite anti-semetic and facists said that 'if your supporting communism, youre supporting judaism' most notable example would be hitler.
It wasn't a myth. In Germany particularly there weren't as many Jewish communists as Poland, Hungary or Russia, but everywhere, a disproportionate number of communists were Jewish. The fact that business leaders said it doesn't make it automatically false.

the other thing that connects judaism to communism is internatinalism.
Maybe I missed that passage in the Talmud.

the last thing that connects jews with communism is the myth that marx was a jew and the fact that many mensheviks were jew. although in my eyes, mensheviks aren't communist. most people reject the idea of communism=judaism now mainly because of the lefts support of palestine, USSR's bad treatment of jews and the fact that the russian communist party top brass have been known for there anti-semetic outbursts.
Menshevism being supported so overwhelmingly by Jews shows a popular movement that represented a substantial amount of the group, while the USSR's anti-semitism did not stop many Jews from being proponents of communist theory, to be practiced as it's supposed to be and not corrupted by anti-semites.

someone says no-one did more for blacks than jews? all i'm saying is check out what the south african doctors did to the black guys down there.
I was talking about black people in America. Anyway, South Africa wasn't exactly paradise for Jews during Apartheid and not all of the doctors who did that were Jewish. If you really want to know what Jews in Africa are up to, why not check out a book on the Falashas or Lemba?

also, the 'new left' has many jewish leaders. well, the new left aren't really communists. there more like social democrats and we all know lenin called social democrats social facists.
Well, people have said that Lenin and Stalin (and Che) weren't real communists either. The New Left didn't have one specific ideology, but almost all members of the New Left were farther left than social democrats. Plenty of the Old Left was Jewish too, anyway.

i will deny you, my english isn't so good so forgive me if i;m wrong, but i detected racism when you addressed corruption. you may have been sarcastic but calling blacks 'darkies' is racist in which case i won't discuss anymore with you.
You're anti-semitic, which is just as prejudiced as being racist, and I'm still talking with you. Anyway, I was being sarcastic. I don't want to get too off-topic but if you search through old threads you'll learn more about my relationship with the black community.

and i'm going to point out one last time cause i obviosly am not getting this point across, JEWS ARE NOT A RACE, THERE A RELIGION!!!
I only used the term "Jewish race" in response to you saying "In my eyes the entire jewish race has been pro-capitalist and throuought history notorious crooks". If you had said "In my eyes the entire jewish GROUP has been pro-capitalist and throuought history notorious crooks" then I would have said group.

do you call christians a race? or muslims? no, so why are jews different.
I agree that Jews are not a race. The concept of a Jewish race didn't come about until the Inquisition, which was not exactly a shining moment in the history of correct analysis of Judaism. However, because there are far less Jews than there are Muslims or Christians, it's easier to categorize and study them. Geneticists have found similarities between the Lembas and Ashkenazis that aren't found in any other group. The vast majority of Jews are Ashkenazi and the second-biggest group, the Sephardim, are the "semitic" Jews, and since they have a lot in common, the term Jewish race, although not completely accurate, can be used to describe them for very simple purposes.

he still stood firm on the fact that most 'other' jews didn't really care about there religion, they just abused it for personal gain.
How, exactly, was Judaism abused for personal gain? Televangelism was never popular among Jews or Eastern Europeans, much less Jewish Eastern Europeans in the 1800's. It would be very hard to abuse Judaism for personal gain. Give me just one example of how this was done.

i don't know if theres any jews on here, but if there are, can you expain some of the quotations i've posted?
Those quotations were posted out of context. The Talmud was written by many rabbis, many of whom were in complete disagreement, and were not to be taken literally. People like yourself who are against all organized religion often clump Judaism and Christianity together, and since there is so much more information on Christianity they just assume that what's true about Christianity is true about Judaism. However, Judaism is open to much more interpretation and almost everything (with the exception of "Thou shalt not kill" ) is abstract. Also, the Talmud is not an official document and not everyone follows it at all, much less to each word, much less literally.

can you explain why your hated so much?
Jews have almost always been a minority, which makes them easy to hate. Also, Jews have always had traditions much different from most other groups in the regions where they've lived. At first, they aroused suspicion by following Kashrut laws, which insured that an animal would not feel any pain. During Roman times they were weird because they weren't polytheists. In medieval times the bubonic plague was blamed on them because they didn't get it, but the reason for this was that they didn't live near Christians (because Christians segregated them) and, unlike Christians at the time, washed their hands. They were not allowed do almost anything except for usury at that time, and when they became successful at it people were pissed off. The general sentiment, which is still around today although to a lesser degree, is that if Jews aren't doing well "it's because G-d hates them for being so mean to Jesus" and if they are doing well it's because "they're so greedy". Jews have been scapegoats because they've always been the minority.

can you explain why jews did those 'experiments' on blacks in south africa?
Jews weren't the only ones who did those experiments. And I'm not excusing everything that any Jew has ever done . . . Jerry Lewis telethons are, to be blunt, the worse thing to happen to the human race since Reefer Madness, or maybe Battlefield Earth. Cancer Schmancer has not been added to my book collection, either. What I'm saying is that Jews did not do those horrible things in South Africa because they were Jewish, and the fact that a few Jews did something does not mean that all Jews condone it.

can you explain why jews had such a prominent role in the slave trade?
Find me an ethnic group that didn't have a prominent role in the slave trade. Even black people sold African slaves to Europeans. Also, how many ethnic groups can you think of that have been enslaved more than the Jews? But if I were to go off saying that all Egyptian, Middle Eastern, German, Russian, etc. people are anti-semitic, that would be stupid and wrong.

can you explain why you feel it is right that you should live on other peoples land?
Many, many Jews are anti-Zionists. A lot of the first "settlers" of Israel in 1948 didn't want to be there, but wanted to go back to their old homes (which were destroyed or stolen) or live in Western Europe or the Americas with their families (which they were not allowed to do). The Jews living in Palestine before that lived peacefully with everyone around them. I believe that Palestinians should be allowed to return, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone more anti-occupation than I am who does not condone suicide bombings . . . Eric Alterman, perhaps. Anyway, the Palestinians did not get that land from the Romans by asking politely. Does that make every Palestinian and anti-Italian asshole? Of course not. So don't generalize. Get to know a person instead of making assumptions based on their ethnicity.

can you explain why thousands of muslims have been willing to take there own lives in the past 50 years just to kill you?
Many Europeans were willing to risk their lives to kill Africans, but that does not prove that Africans aren't worthwhile people. There were plenty of kamikaze pilots, so are you trying to say that all Europeans/Allies are bad?

can you explain why you control the US media
People say that Jews "control the media" to spread anti-semitic lies and make excuses for themselves. The prominence of Jewish people on executive boards of many popular networks, studios and newspapers is due to the fact that, coincidence or not, in the baby boomber generation Jews just so happened to end up being better media executives than WASPs. It hasn't been going on for very long at all.

the US is the only country to support your so called 'jewish state'?
The US supported Israel at first so that they wouldn't have to let more Jews into their country. Nowadays it's done by politicians who are courting the Jewish vote and Jewish money, and condoned by their Televangelist backers on very shaky theological ground.

I missed this one last time I was here, so I'll give a belated response:
they control the white house
Yeah, and it's time Goldbushowitz and Cheneystein stop supporting Israel and replace idiots like Riceberg with people who aren't so incredibly Zionist. Oh, wait . . . don't they all wear cowboy boots, with the exception of Rice? Have you seen the fundraising letters that the Republican party sends out? They rail against "northeastern liberals", which is a term for Jews in the way that "welfare mothers" is a term for black people. The only Jewish television personality in the "Jew-run" media who I pay attention to is Jon Stewart, and he and the writers for his show clearly have nothing but contempt for Bush. Well, maybe contempt and a finger.

Sh'mah Yisrael, let's go back to controlling the weather,
Lindsay

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 12:45 am on May 10, 2002)


(Edited by I Will Deny You at 12:47 am on May 10, 2002)

[El Che]

IWDY, I beg you to use bold, or italic when qouting because usualy I do so enjoy reading your stuff, but in those tiny letters its just impossible to follow the argument.

[El Che]

"and despite that el che hasn't given us any examples of socialist policy proposals. Even the "socialistic" reforms you name are all justified by Smith and Mills who see them as benefiting the commonwealth by preserving competition. After all it was marx, the father of modern socialism, that discouraged what you would call socialistic reforms."

Well... Stricktly speaking, they aren`t Socialist, in that Socialism aims higher then the said reforms. But lets not so picky about names, bacause indeed many socialists fought all their lives for the small gains in question, and they are as worthy of the destinction socialist as any intellectual. Men like Eugene Debs, James Connolly and many many anounymous comrades. It will NOT be I, who will desdain what they achived, simply because it is a solution of compromise. Further more the Socialist movement is unsperatable from the labor movement, one is simply the political extention of the other. But let me qoute my self:

"Its a solution of compromise, forced or brought about by the labor movement and socialist sell outs know as reformists."

This species is also known as "democratic socialists". I term I do not like, because it implies that just pain ole socialists aren`t democratic, which is of course a stupidity and an enormity. What its should really read is "Capitalist Socialists", i.e those that dont want to scrap capitalism any more, for whatever reason, and that seek co-existence with capitalism, while defending several defending worker rights, betterment of wages, welfare, social security etc... Some just try to do what is possible and I respect those, others think nothing else is possible and I despise those.

(Edited by El Che at 6:03 am on May 10, 2002)


(Edited by El Che at 9:43 am on May 10, 2002)

[El Che]

Well after reading that I think yuriandprov should be banned on the grounds that he is an aint semitic rasist, and on top of that he says he is a leftist. What he means is he is a stalinist, which in turn means that he is an aint semitc rasist fascist. Now fascists seem to be tolerated, after all, che guevarra him self was a Marxist-Leninst.................................. But to this date we have always banned rasistsm and I see no reason for the rules not to apply.

IWDY, you didnt have to change your post, it was something to keep in mind for future posts. But anyway thanks and sorry for any inconvinence.

[Anarcho]

Listening to Yuri is like listening to the Skinheads that I've spoken with in the past.... things sound fine, and you start thinking that maybe it's all media hype, and then he starts in on the "Jews control this and that, and are keeping others down..."

Yuri, I stated why most people refer to Jews as a race. In the US, Mormons are headed the same direction... if they are still around in 500 years, it may very well be the same tautology.

[yuriandropov]

IWDY, i never reffered to as the jews as a race. the quote you have got is from thine stalin. i will give you credit for answering the questions though, although i don't agree with most of the answers. jews don't control media? look at the facts i gave you. jews don't abuse there religion for personal gain? i know its a bad example but have you seen the film snatch? the diamond seller at the start pretends to be jewish. they are seen as good businessmen so often where those hats and pretend to be jewish even though they couldn't quote the talmud. anyway, el che, i don't care if you ban me. considering you all hate stalin so much, you don't care for freedom of speech much do you? BTW, i am a leftist, i was a member of the communist party of the soviet union. i've stated on another post how stalin was a marxist leninist and sow am i. and i'm not a racist, just look at all my posts, i only show anti-semitism to talmud readers not all jews (judaism=religion not race, there, i've said it for the 400th f*****g time!). i've said i don't care if you ban me but, why should i be banned for giving you the factuel truth? check the info i've put about the media, the talmud, the south african doctors, the jewsih quotes and the jews involvement in the slave trade. its all the truth.

[Anarcho]

Your points have been dis-credited, or at least debated.... answer the replies.

And the reason he posed as a Jew is that in the diamond markets of Antwerp, the Jews are the best and most reliable dealers in diamons and other gems.

[guerrillaradio]

Where's Capitalist?? He always does this...posts the stupidest fucking stuff and then refuses to back it up...come back!!!

[reagan lives]

"Well... Stricktly speaking, they aren`t Socialist, in that Socialism aims higher then the said reforms. But lets not so picky about names, bacause indeed many socialists fought all their lives for the small gains in question, and they are as worthy of the destinction socialist as any intellectual. Men like Eugene Debs, James Connolly and many many anounymous comrades. It will NOT be I, who will desdain what they achived, simply because it is a solution of compromise. Further more the Socialist movement is unsperatable from the labor movement, one is simply the political extention of the other."

I'm going to run the risk of sounding like Ernest Everhard here, but it's terribly appropriate. El Che, you need to get over your Manichean world view. From the looks of this ignorant statement here, it seems that you've set up this delusional reality in which you posit "socialism" as equal to "good." Therefore, if things are socialist, they are good, and if things are good, they are socialist. Capitalist labor reforms are good, so they must be socialist (no matter how much they're justified by Smith and Mill). Tell me, El Che, is ice cream socialist? Is Grandma socialist? I'm sorry, but you can't say "let's not be so picky about names" when it suits you, then turn around and say "oh, we're talking about socialism, not Stalinism or Leninism, these distinctions are very important."

I'll ask you again, El Che. You said:
"I can give you the example of 'wellfare' and the rights of workers, all of which are socialist conquests or ways in which socialist thought and practice has influenced modern western society."

Explain to me how those things are "socialist." And DON'T say "let's not be picky about names, they just are."

[I Will Deny You]

IWDY, i never reffered to as the jews as a race. the quote you have got is from thine stalin.
Well, sorry. I thought it was from you. I apologize for my mistake.

jews don't control media? look at the facts i gave you.
I'm not debating that Jewish people are in many high-level positions in the media. But what's untrue is that they got there because they're Jewish and that they use the media to push a Jewish agenda.

jews don't abuse there religion for personal gain? i know its a bad example but have you seen the film snatch? the diamond seller at the start pretends to be jewish. they are seen as good businessmen so often where those hats and pretend to be jewish even though they couldn't quote the talmud.
Jewish people abusing others is only to be expected once in a while, considering the fact that there are millions of us. But what you need to learn to do is differentiate between a Jew who abuses others and a Jew who abuses others because he is Jewish, or a Jew who abuses the religion itself. The most recent example of this is Sabbatai Zevi, so you may as well give up now. I'd write a longer reply to this comment, but it didn't make a whole lot of sense so I really don't know what to say.

i only show anti-semitism to talmud readers not all jews (judaism=religion not race, there, i've said it for the 400th f*****g time!).
Actually, you've showed complete and total anti-semitism.

check the info i've put about the media, the talmud, the south african doctors, the jewsih quotes and the jews involvement in the slave trade. its all the truth.
What you haven't been able to do, because it's impossible, is connect a few Jews who have done bad things with the entire Jewish religion and all those who follow it. You should certainly condemn Jewish slave traders, but you should do so because they were slave traders and not because they were Jewish. They deserve the same amount of wrath as non-Jewish slave traders. The same goes for the South African doctors.

Shabbat Shalom,
Lindsay

[Thine Stalin]

You realise all you utopian socialists are being incredibly ignorant, you haven't taken in a word of what me and yuri or the capitalists have said, you just repeat yourselves over and over, maybe you might glance at what we say and just assume we are anti-semites, maybe we are, I don't care. I explained to you I hate the jewish culture, the jews raised to be well.. 'jewish' and yuri explained his side, and yet you assume we are racists, as yuri said, judaism is not a race, its a religon, explain how that makes it racist, saying you hate israel is more racist than what we have said and yet many of you have proclaimed it seeing their atrocities against the palestinians.

Actually take in what we say instead of just nit picking, I bet you'd criticize our punctuation if you ran out of things. Actually try and listen and learn, I know its hard because your a bunch of teenagers who they're always right and know everything but learning now and remembering is better than reaching adulthood with your stupid utopian ideals floating around your mind and assuming anyone who criticizes jews is anti-sematic.. oh wait, thats accepted in the U.S isn't it? Mostly by white christian capitalists, right? Oh I forget, you selfish people might as well be because you have no regard for your future generations as I explained before. You all seem pretty capitalist to me.

You're going to be capitalists when you grow up, so stop trying to act 'rebellious' now and get on with growing up and try actually listening to what other people have to say instead of just assuming everything.

And I'm sure you could fine ways of being rebellious more suited to your personalities if you want to.

If you want communism, you'll be a stalinist, if you want to dream of a false reality, where communism works out perfect, being a utopian socialist as you are now. Either way, you live with the stalinist world and get communism or you live with the capitalist world and dream of utopian socialism.

[I Will Deny You]

maybe you might glance at what we say and just assume we are anti-semites, maybe we are, I don't care.
You don't sound like much of an egalitarian to me.

I explained to you I hate the jewish culture, the jews raised to be well.. 'jewish'
The problem is, you don't seem to know jack shit about Jewish culture.

and yet you assume we are racists, as yuri said, judaism is not a race, its a religon, explain how that makes it racist
I never said that it was racist. It is, however, prejudiced. It's prejudice based on religion instead of race, but it's just as bad.

saying you hate israel is more racist than what we have said and yet many of you have proclaimed it seeing their atrocities against the palestinians.
Being anti-Israel is hardly ever racist and is not prejudiced unless you dislike Israel because it's full of Jews, instead of disliking it because of the human rights violations that the Israeli government commits.

Actually take in what we say instead of just nit picking
If I only disputed a few small points, that would be nit picking. But I am disputing the entire basis of your and Yuri's argument . . . that's not nit picking, it's proving you wrong.

Actually try and listen and learn, I know its hard because your a bunch of teenagers
I'm 23.

assuming anyone who criticizes jews is anti-sematic..
If you criticize one single Jew, and not because that person is Jewish but because of an error that they made, that's not anti-semitism. But when you say that all Jews are greedy, that's anti-semitism.

oh wait, thats accepted in the U.S isn't it? Mostly by white christian capitalists, right? Oh I forget, you selfish people might as well be because you have no regard for your future generations as I explained before. You all seem pretty capitalist to me.
Being white or Christian has nothing to do with a person's worth . . . or are you prejudiced against Christians and whites as well as Jews?

You're going to be capitalists when you grow up, so stop trying to act 'rebellious' now and get on with growing up and try actually listening to what other people have to say instead of just assuming everything.
I'm already through with puberty, thankyouverymuch.

And I'm sure you could fine ways of being rebellious more suited to your personalities if you want to.
This whole tangent was completely pointless and off-topic.

If you want communism, you'll be a stalinist
No, if I wanted mass murder I'd be a Stalinist.

if you want to dream of a false reality, where communism works out perfect, being a utopian socialist as you are now. Either way, you live with the stalinist world and get communism or you live with the capitalist world and dream of utopian socialism.
Stalinism's merits have already been debated elsewhere, and I think that we anti-Stalinists have a fairly good case to say the very least.

[Menshevik]

Really, could one of the professed Stalinists please explain to me why they think Stalinism is the most supreme form of Communism. I would really like to why you that way, nothing more.

[yuriandropov]

i never said stalinsim was the supreme for of communism, it isn't, it is the ONLY form of communism. to begin with anyway. every attempt to form marxist-leninism has led to stalinism. why? because the two are inseperable. they are the same. communism is the economic ideas of karl marx, the social and political ideas of karl marx and frederick engels, and the revolutionary skills of vladimir illyich lenin. thats what stalin followed. what would happen if i came into power and said, 'all men are equal and shall be payed equally!', that would lead to chaos, dissulusion and corruption. communism must be implemented slowly over maybe 100 years or more. stalinism comes first, then and only then can we begin to move further left towards trotskyist ideals. BTW, if stalinism sucks, how come stalinists always get into power? when was the last trotskyist government? what happened to 'permanent revolution'? stalinist governments are still here in cuba, china, vietnam, N. Korea, laos, moldova, belarus, congo, ethiopia. parliments of russia, ukraine etc are dominated with stalinists. soon (within at least 10 years) USSR will be back. look at where the stalinist governments have come back to power. poland, romania, bulgaria, hungary. they still hold much power in other eastern european countries too. stalinism is the only way forward for the communist movement. it is for the working class. the working class aren't interested in anti-war, free speech, anarchy, pro-life, anti death penalty. all the stuff you 'marxists' are into. they just want to be kept from exploitation from the middle class. thats what communism does. stalinism is anti-semitic, so are many working class. stalinism is patriotic, so is the working class. stalinism IS the working class. thats why stalinism is still so popular. it appeals to the working class like nothing else.

[Michael De Panama]

Yuri, you mentioned how you only hate Jews who study the Talmud. Yet later on you said "that most 'other' jews didn't really care about there religion, they just abused it for personal gain." If they didn't care about their religion, then they obviously don't follow the Talmud. And if, in your eyes, the only people who are Jewish are those that follow the Talmud, then why do you even consider these people Jewish? I thought, as you said, Judaism is a religion and not a race?

I Will Deny You answered a lot of what I had to say. But I must ask: Isn't the Torah the official jewish holy book? Isn't the Talmud just the book of interpretations? I may be wrong. I don't know. But can you, Yuri, find any quotes from the Torah that support your rediculous anti-semetic claims?

It seems to me that you are assuming that whatever Marx wrote in his early years MUST be true. Instead of learning about a religion from an economist, learn about it from a rabbi.

Marx, unlike you, attacked all religion without prejudice towards one single religion. Your answer, "i am against all organised religion but i single out judaism for the reasons i gave in the previous two posts.", does not fly with me. You tell me SPECIFICALLY why you have singled out this one religion to talk about. Now.

I'm not denying that there are evil Jews out there, but that doesn't make Jews evil. There ARE those people out there that follow Judaism and exploit it, but they are a veeeeeery small minority within the already small minority of the Jews. There are a lot more Christians that exploit people through their religion. Look at Benny Hinn. The man's a millionaire all because he decieved people into thinking that if they give him money, Jesus will cure them of their cancer or their diabetese through the touch of this man's hand on their forehead. Then they die anyway! It's absolutely disgusting. Fundamentalist Christian ideology assisted the genocide of the Native Americans, the attempted genocide on the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition and in the Holocaust, and the murder of millions of other people in Africa and elsewhere. Let's not forget about the Crusades. I hate all of that. However, I have no hatred for the Christians as a group of people. Nor do I have hatred for their ideology.

Just because someone is associated with a group of people doesn't mean that the rest of the group of people associates themselves to him. My sister, for example, has red hair. Does that mean that I have red hair, or that the rest of my family has red hair, or that all latinos have red hair? No. In fact, there is an extremely small minority of latinos with red hair. Very very small minority. I have black hair. So does my mother, my father, my other sister, and the rest of my family. But, based on your silly logic, I have red hair. Che Guevara must have had red hair as well.

Thine Stalin, this is what you just told me: "I am not going to respound to any points that anyone brought me, and instead use this time to tell you how you need to respound to what I'm saying, despite the fact that I am bringing absolutely NOTHING new to the table. Facts and logic definitely aren't on my side, so I will resort to attacking your personal character. I am right. You are wrong. Deal."

It seems that you are attacking my communistness at every chance you get. You either call me an "anarchist", a "utopian communist", or a "capitalist".

If I seem pretty capitalist to you, that's probably because you don't even know what capitalism is. It's probably because you never took the time to look into the Communist Manifesto.

If it seems that I keep repeating myself, you're probably right. I AM repeating yourself, because you aren't getting it through your fucking head.

Next time bring me some points to respound to, rather than just childishly attacking my integrity.

[yuriandropov]

IWDY, yes i hate those doctors in south africa as people first not jews. but its a slight coninsidense that jews have been involved in all these terrible acts against others. (palestine, south africa, slave trade, globalisation). about the media, no the jews haven't got there because there jewish, but they do manipulate there positions to be pro israli (there (USA) the only country that is, doesn't that tell you something). about me showing complete anti-semitism against all jews. not true. i just don't like talmud readers, not all jews. there is a guy on this forum who is jewish (i think) called reuban. he is anti-israli and communist. as long as he's communist for the right reasons, i have no problem with him. it happens that about 99% of jews are pro israel, pro capitalist, pro zionist etc. although i don now admit that both me and thine stalin are anti semitic. i checked the dictionary for semitic and it said something like, beliefs, customs and traditions of jewish people. as i am against there beliefs, i am anti-semitic. i hate jews for there beliefs, not there big noses (sorry for the blatant generalisation but i'm just trying to get my point across that if i hated jews for having big noses or something, i would be racist, i hate them for beliefs so i'm anti semitic). you say i'm predjudice, so. surely you must be predjudice against capitalists? i'm against anyone who doesn't support the working class. listen to thine stalin, he has a lot more sense than most other 'leftists' on this board. most people berating me and him for our beliefs are middle class, suburban rich teenagers who take communism because its 'against the norm'. answer thine stalins comments about why you want your 'utopian society' now. thats greedy, like capitalists. you should settle for a good life with stalinism and be safe knowing that generations after us will be living in a classless society. most of you would live to see true socialism, maybe communism, if we started stalinism now. like thine stalin says, either live in capitalism and dream, or make stalinism and create communism.

[Thine Stalin]

I will deny you, you assume again, I didn't direct my post at you in paticular, in fact I respect you more than the other idealists because you actually back up what you say. Micheal does but he is so insulting to me I just have no respect for him, if he isn't mature to not make personal attacks, his problem. I meant in general on most of the things I said, like I know not everyone replying is an adolescent, but I assume most are by what they say.

[Anarcho]

Yuri, somone else already stated that most groups of humanity worked in Slave trade, globalization, and massive capitalist growth.

Pick another thing that you think was dominated by the Jewish people, so we can prove you wrong there too.

[yuriandropov]

how have you proven me wrong? any one you! i have provided facts and the page numbers of the books to back it up. all you have provided is rhetoric. i'll ask you a non factuel question. why do so many different groups hate jews? its one of the few things, conservatives, facists, nazis, communists (real communists) and even people with no political affiliation agree on. and don't just say, 'there a minority group'. satanists are a minority group, when has anyone tried to wipe out the satanist population? again no one has answered the question thine stalin posed about capitalism. communism takes years to implement, but you don't care about that, you want it now! that is very capitalistic. anyway, i must go now. i'll be back later to answer the points i haven't yet.

[peaccenicked]

This whole thread is sick and does not belong on this site.
Firstly, all anti-semitism is banned even if it is diguised as anti religion and marx criticised Judaism not Jews.
Disguising Stalinism as a 'new realism' is a pathetic apology for mass murder. ThineStalin and Yuriandropov
should know better and I think banned from this site.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 12:29 pm on May 11, 2002)

[El Che]

"I'll ask you again, El Che. You said:
"I can give you the example of 'wellfare' and the rights of workers, all of which are socialist conquests or ways in which socialist thought and practice has influenced modern western society."

Explain to me how those things are "socialist." And DON'T say "let's not be picky about names, they just are.""

Well, to put it very simply, so that maybe you`ll understand, they aren`t socialist victories, but rather the are for the most part victories of socialists and victories of the labor movement. I say this because it is indeed true that many true socialists indeed fought to achive the victories in question. Socialism though, is something else althogether, granted. May it soon come to deliver us from evil.

[Guest]

Many "capitalists" also fought to achieve the victories in question. So what's your point?

[El Che]

"Many "capitalists" also fought to achieve the victories in question."

Not so.

"So what's your point?"

My point is to clarify your doubts, and destroy your objections.

[Guest]

OK, I deny that socialists fought for those achievements. Nyah.

[El Che]

You cant deny history. Well you can... But who cares really?

[Guest]

Oh, but you can. I see now.

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 12:26 pm on May 11, 2002
This whole thread is sick and does not belong on this site.
Firstly, all anti-semitism is banned even if it is diguised as anti religion and marx criticised Judaism not Jews.
Disguising Stalinism as a 'new realism' is a pathetic apology for mass murder. ThineStalin and Yuriandropov
should know better and I think banned from this site.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 12:29 pm on May 11, 2002)


We haven't been anti-sematic or racist at all, we gave our reasons behind our thinking. Why are you all so insistant on having us banned? Is it too difficult to argue with us?

Why then? IWDY hasn't suggested banning although she's jewish and has more reason than any of you to suggest it, besides that she's the only one pretty much whose given reasoning behind her arguements against me and yuri that I've seen.

[peaccenicked]

"we all know menshevism is another word for jewish takeover''
Who we?certainly no historian of any note. This smacks of fascist conspiracy theory. The very bile of racist poison.

[Reuben]

well I do not think it is your palace to start saying who is jewish and who isnt and start defining it. I certainly would consider myself jewish even though I am an atheist much alike many other ethnic jews. For allo intents they were an ethnic group, they spoke their own language (yiddish) as their first language.


i work for the belorussian kgb and worked for the soviet kgb for 10 years. whenever we were investigating corruption, you could bet your ass there was a jew lurking somewhere in the picture. usually pulling the strings, getting the most out of it and doing the least. some would call that clever, i call it exploitation.


Dont pretend it is just religious disagreement . what youare latching onto is the traditional antisemitic movement.

Basically what you are saying is that you do not mind jews if they assimilate. Furthermore if you go to the website of the british natioal party, you will find that they only profess to have a problem with the islamic religion

[yuriandropov]

if it wasn't for menshevism, the world would be communist now. german facism was a reaction to menshevism. mensheviks wanted to unite germany and russia as one country. as most leading mensheviks were jews, hitler just told the crowd what they wanted to hear. he said, 'the jews want to takeover germany'. if there was no menshevism, the communist revolution would have succeded in 1921. stalin would have made sure of it. he would have made sure the revolution happened, but he wouldn't have united germany and russia, something that would of appeased members of the german left who were also nationalistic. also, the menshevik ideals were against communism. they thought the revolution should be led by the middle class. to me, that is swapping one form of exploitation for another. capitalism, to state jewish capitalism. anyway, i can't be bothered to keep denying my racism. look at previous threads. i am pro-black civil rights, i am pro-palestinian, i side with the muslim world (mainly iran and iraq) against the USA. if i was racist, i would be just pro white. as it is, i can't stand racists. i may be anti-semitic, but i'm not obsessed with political correctness like most of you others. the truth is, you know the majority of jews have been assholes through-out history, you know what israel is doing is wrong, you know jews have to take some blame for there persecution over the past 2000 years, you know the talmud teaches facism, you know sharon is a right wing bastard and you know jews control a lot of american media and use it for there own benefit. the difference is, me and thine stalin have the guts to say it. most of you are worried about being labeled 'politically incorrect' or 'anti-semitic'. you can call me anti-semitic if you want. just remember, i'm not the first guy to hold a grudge against the religion of judaism for its immoral teaching, and i sure as shit won't be the last.

BTW if your first reaction to someone who disagree with you is to ban them, you shouldn't be on a BB. the whole point is to argue. otherwise you just go round in circles agreeing with each other.

[peaccenicked]

"Of course the general community rules are still valid here: No posts which are rascist, anti-semitic, knowingly false and/or defamatory, hateful, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy. "
These are the rules and your specific attitude is anti semitic and by rational logic racist.
I hardly see the point in an argument when the depth of irrational prejudice you display is appalling.
Your "knowledge" of history is dangerously flawed and offensive and that if you want to call politically correct, then so be it. Every anti racist knows and this is ABC that any over generalisation (assholes) is just not on, the sooner your ignorant attitudes dissappear from this site the better.

[yuriandropov]

rather than dismissing anything that, in the slightest way depicts jews as bad, as 'anti-semitic rhetoric' why don't you just answer the points?

[peaccenicked]

Menshevism was the minority position of RSDLP. It was a hotch potch of political ideas characterised by loose organisation. Right mensheviks were pro war. There was nothing particularly jewish about it.
The rise of german fascism was a direct reaction to bolshevism. The west supported because they felt threatened by the communists. Menshevism which was largely the political position of the the second international was pro war and reformist. Lenin charactererised it as the yellow international. He rightly was most concerned with its political content, which ultimately was toothless against fascism but Stalin did not help at all by taking the sectarian position of calling these people ''social fascists''. Thus undermining any possible alliance.
Your position is dangerous as it coincides with modern day nazism and the logic you apply is akin to a violent irrationalism, something that has only brought shame and disaster to the international labour movement.
I find it difficult to respond to your utter blindness.

[Michael De Panama]

I posted a huge post back there and you didn't even respound to ANYTHING! Cowards.

Thine Stalin, you know damn well that you are the only one who is relying on personal attacks to boost his argument. If I ever insult you, it is never without providing you with something else to respound to.

Now respound to my last post, fuckheads.

[Reuben]

this ridiculous as an argument. You are saying that because you are not racist against blacks etc. you cant be racist against.


Whoever you are talking about religious/secualr or whatever, everything thaat you say can be traced back to an age old anti-semitc tradition.

Can I just I ask you something. I am a part of the secular (non religious) jewish community. I do not believe, however I regard myself as jewish and my father is a proud yiddish speaker. Do you have a problem?


By the way, what do you think of Yevgeny Yevtushenko

[Reuben]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 12:31 am on May 12, 2002[br you know the majority of jews have been assholes through-out history, you know what israel is doing is wrong, you know jews have to take some blame for there persecution over the past 2000 years, you know the talmud teaches facism, you know sharon is a right wing bastard and you know jews control a lot of american media and use it for there own benefit.


I thought you said it was only believers in judaism who you attacked and regarded as jewish. Sharon is an atheist! noew you show your true colours.

ANd by the way, the majority of jews in russai prior to the revolution were a) not middle class, many lives in what we call shtetls, little huts. Furthermore they were amongst the most oppressed oppressed groups in russia.

PLease answer all my points ESPECIALLY REGARDING SHARONS ATHEISM

[yuriandropov]

yevgeny yetushenko, don't know who he is. sharon atheist, well, thats precisly my point. if he is atheist why does he were that stupid fucking hat? why does he talk about the spititual home of the jewish people? why does he reject any ideas of a palestinian state? if he didn't believe in religion, he wouldn't beleive that any religion has the right to any peice of land would he? he is like many 'jews' he abuses his ethnic heritage as a jew so he can do whatever he wants. why? because the talmud says he can. michael de panama, i didn't see your post, i'll answer it later. i'm fed up with this bull shit. say anything about jews and your an anti-semitic racist. thats the way it works isn't it? that bull shit poilitcal correctness is just a way of saying 'suport our sham of a jewish state or we'll say your an anti-semitic hitler follower'.

[Reuben]

s o your opinions do not just relate to religious jewsm they relate to ethnic jews as well. my question related to the fact that you said you would not regard him as jewish.

Asl o regarding my post on my own background. Answer my question what would you think of me

[yuriandropov]

your own background, if i knew you were jewish, i would be inclined to think you were a zionist. this would be one of the first questions i would ask you. when i found out you weren't a zionist, i would be ok with you. you may think that generalising saying 'all jews are zionist' but i think you realise 95% are. anyway, i want to ask you a question. what do you think of the talmud and the jewish religion? surely you must realise that zionists get there facist ammo from the talmud? once again, i don't hate non religious, anti-zionist jews. i hate sharon because he is the biggest zionist out there and he is a facist. not because he is an ethnic jew. (i also personally beleive he draws his information from the talmud, but i don't know enough about his religious beleifs to comment)

[El Che]

yuriandropov do you think that jews are different from any other person??? Dont you get it? All men are equal!!!1 And you call your self a marxist for chirst sakes. Just because you dont like what some reglion says doesn`t mean that the people that follow that religion are any different from anyone else. WAKE UP!

[yuriandropov]

el che, i don't think i'm better than a religious jew. i just don't like them. do you like capitalists? cause i don't. just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you think your better than them. marx didn't like religious jews, is he not a marxist? engels didn't like chinese or slavs, is he not marxist? lenin hated all members of the middle class, is he not marxist? this world is full of enemies of the working class. whoever is one, i hate.

[Reuben]

you know jews have to take some blame for there persecution over the past 2000 years, you know the talmud teaches facism

Racism does not stem from minorities it stems from racism. Would you say that muslims have to take some blame for islamaphobia because of what happend on 9/11.

Furthermore , if anti-jewish feeling eminates from the talmud, then why have religious and non-religious jews been attacked indiscriminately along side religious jews. As I said before I am an atheist but have been attacked as a jew. I am also proud to identify as a jew.

WWhen my family left Vitebsk, they anti-semitism they were leaving had nothing to do with the jewish religion (although it did have something to do with lies told about the jewish religion such as drinking blood on passover). It had much more to do with the jewish conspiracy theory and forgeries such as the ELders of Zion (from which you seem to have obtained most of your info) and the lies of the russian orthodox church

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 4:43 am on May 12, 2002
I posted a huge post back there and you didn't even respound to ANYTHING! Cowards.

Thine Stalin, you know damn well that you are the only one who is relying on personal attacks to boost his argument. If I ever insult you, it is never without providing you with something else to respound to.

Now respound to my last post, fuckheads.


I've read your posts, and they often reflect the same thing, I'm not going to respond to the same thing, I realise I repeat myself, and thats why I would understand if you just don't bother responding to me.

As for the insult thing, you regularly toss out insults, such as you did at the end of your post. Remember when I told you socialism was just the hippie's wimpy form of communism you got really upset and flamed my posts for the next 2 months. Calling me fuckhead at the end of your post without explaining why I was fuckhead added bit of irony :)

I haven't personally insulted you or anybody here.

[Reuben]

ok, a question for you supportters of Stalin. You say that you only oppose the jewish religion, yet in the early 1950s stalin purged all the yiddish(secular jewish language) writers and secular jewish cultural in a wave of undeniable racism. How do you feel about this?

[yuriandropov]

most (if not all) soviet yiddish writers of the 50's were either trotskyists, zionists or capitalists. either way they were enemies of the workng class.

[Reuben]

Wow your potential for talking rubbish just grows and grows.

WHat you said was simply forged out of steryotypes to falsely justify Stalins action/.. THis I can back up with examples.


(Edited by Reuben at 7:38 pm on May 12, 2002)

[yuriandropov]

i support it for the same reason i said above. they were enemies of the working class. on the whole, jews, even working class jews found it hard assimilating to the soviet way of life. many jews in the USSR didn't see themselves as soviets, they saw themselves as jewish. this is a form of anti-soviet nationalism. they would be dealt with the same way stalin dealt with the chechen rebels. excile them. so stalin wasn't being racist towards non-russians (he himself was georgian who spoke russian with a thick accent), he was crushing any form of nationalism and rightly so.

[Reuben]

WHat you said WAS simply forged out of steryotypes to falsely justify Stalins action/.. THis I can back up with examples.

The point is that they were purged because they were yiddish writers and their association with a minority language and culture.

ON the twelth of August 1952, 13 members of the JEwish Peoples anti-facist committee were executed. This commitee had been set up by stalin to try to enlist jewish efforts to fight Nazism and those from the committee who were executed included some of his most ardent supporters.

Those executed included yiddish poets itsik ffeffer, Leib Kvitko and Peretz Parkish. yiddish Writeres david Bergolson and Shmeul Halkin as well as r benjamin zuskin who was the leading actor at the moscow state jewish theatre.

Feffer one of the yiddish poets to be executed had toured the world during the war in his uniform as a red army Colonel raising millions of pounds from jewish audiences for the soviet war effort. (as you can see he was by no means a trotskyist, capitalist or zionist, he was just unforunate enough to be jewish).

After the war a big patriotic drive was taken up by the russian authorities who even began celebrating czarist expansionism. They had decided that all plays must celebrate russians in terms of scientific acheivement etc. Jewish novelist Ilya Ehrenberg was even to make the names of his characters 'more russian'.

It was in this atmosphere that a witch hunt ensued with jewish choirs and drama tgrous dissapearing. In the autonomous jewish region of Birziobizhan, a vast library of yiddish works was destroyed. The witch hunt was not dissimallar to mcarthyism, not least in the sense that many of those targetted in america shared the dsame ethnic background as those targetted in russia

It was in this context that the members of the Jewish peoples anti facist committe mentioned earlier were executed not because theuy were trotskyists or zionists or whatever but because they were yiddish writers and jews.
Now what do you think of this racist abomination


(Edited by Reuben at 7:44 pm on May 12, 2002)

[Reuben]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 7:11 pm on May 12, 2002
i support it for the same reason i said above. they were enemies of the working class. on the whole, jews, even working class jews found it hard assimilating to the soviet way of life. many jews in the USSR didn't see themselves as soviets, they saw themselves as jewish. this is a form of anti-soviet nationalism. they would be dealt with the same way stalin dealt with the chechen rebels. excile them. so stalin wasn't being racist towards non-russians (he himself was georgian who spoke russian with a thick accent), he was crushing any form of nationalism and rightly so.


Refusing to assimalite and sacrifice your minority identiy does not equate to nationalismm. They had every right to see themselves jewish. No one should be forced to assimilate. Here in britain we haveethnic minority groups who may see themselves as pakistani or arabic. does this warrant persecution?

maybe we have got to the bottom of the fact that you are just a small minded majoritairianist

[yuriandropov]

1952, i think thats probobly when the paranoia set in and yes, i can admit stalin started to get paranoid in the early 50's. i still think he acted for the good of the people and not just for racist pleasure like hitler would do (or like you think stalin did)

[El Che]

"el che, i don't think i'm better than a religious jew. i just don't like them. do you like capitalists? cause i don't. just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you think your better than them. marx didn't like religious jews, is he not a marxist? engels didn't like chinese or slavs, is he not marxist? lenin hated all members of the middle class, is he not marxist? this world is full of enemies of the working class. whoever is one, i hate."

I really dont give a flying truttle foot, what you hate. Go slam your head into a wall or something. Or punch your self unconsciente. Haha, that`ll work out all your frustration and you`ll forget all about Jews.

(Edited by El Che at 7:54 pm on May 12, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Isn't the Torah the official jewish holy book? Isn't the Talmud just the book of interpretations?
Exactly. Like I said before, the Talmud is made entirely of interpretations. It was written by many different people, and there are a ton of contradictions and gray areas in it.

IWDY, yes i hate those doctors in south africa as people first not jews. but its a slight coninsidense that jews have been involved in all these terrible acts against others. (palestine, south africa, slave trade, globalisation). about the media, no the jews haven't got there because there jewish, but they do manipulate there positions to be pro israli (there (USA) the only country that is, doesn't that tell you something). about me showing complete anti-semitism against all jews. not true. i just don't like talmud readers, not all jews.
I'd be interested to know the number of Jewish slave traders, torture doctors and media CEOs who have read the Talmud.

there is a guy on this forum who is jewish (i think) called reuban. he is anti-israli and communist. as long as he's communist for the right reasons, i have no problem with him. it happens that about 99% of jews are pro israel, pro capitalist, pro zionist etc.
I've got a funny little feeling that I know more Jewish people than you do, and far less than 99% of Jewish people are pro-Israel, pro-capitalism or pro-Zionism.

most people berating me and him for our beliefs are middle class, suburban rich teenagers who take communism because its 'against the norm'.
How would you know that? It's untrue, anyway.

how have you proven me wrong? any one you! i have provided facts and the page numbers of the books to back it up. all you have provided is rhetoric. i'll ask you a non factuel question. why do so many different groups hate jews? its one of the few things, conservatives, facists, nazis, communists (real communists) and even people with no political affiliation agree on. and don't just say, 'there a minority group'.
Why do so many people hate women? They have been marginalized in nearly every society . . . much more so than even Jews. Tell me the difference between Jews and women when it comes to this, tell me you're a misogynist, or admit that you're wrong.

look at previous threads. i am pro-black civil rights, i am pro-palestinian, i side with the muslim world (mainly iran and iraq) against the USA. if i was racist, i would be just pro white.
Racist does not just mean being pro-white. There are plenty of people in my neighborhood who don't like me because I'm half-white and they're anti-white. And Sadaam Hussein is racist. (Not to mention capitalist, but that's another story.)

the truth is, you know the majority of jews have been assholes through-out history
Jews have been around for thousands of years, and more often than not, it's been other nations/peoples who were assholes to Jews.

you know what israel is doing is wrong
Israel does not represent the world's Jews!

you know sharon is a right wing bastard
Sharon is one of the world's Jews out of millions. I can think of more than one Russian who's an asshole, but you don't see me going around spewing anti-Russia bullshit.

surely you must realise that zionists get there facist ammo from the talmud?
So do many anti-Zionist Jews.

Gay slug en cap en vant,
Lindsay

[yuriandropov]

ok ,for the last time i'll give you my reasons for my hate of the jewish religion:
1- judaism teaches that its people ar better than others, thats facism.
2- the majority of jews are pro zionist or pro-capitalist (this is true for the soviet union anyway. i can't say too much here, but lets just say i know. e-mail me if you want too know how)
3- jews in the USSR classed themselves as jews first and soviets second (if at all!), thats nationalism, i fought for years to stop that.
4- most soviet corruption had jews behind it. (same applies as 2, e-mail me if you want to know how)
5- i hate jews who believe in judaism, but there are also jews who just use it as an excuse to get what they want. e.g. sharon, if he was a religious man, he wouldn't be violent, so he is using judaism and 'antisemitism' as an exuse for oppressing palestinians.
6- they don't integrate into society, thats why they want there own country! i can only speak for USSR. but they never integrated themselves into the soviet system.
7-what jews did in south africa was a digrace to humanity. 90% of those doctors were jewish. i know that doesn't mean i should hate all jews. but there are probobly nazis who thought the holocaust shouldn't have happened, but you'd still probobly hate all nazis. its all about core beliefs, i hate there core beliefs.

jews aren't the only group of people i don't like. i'm only saying i don't like them particularly because i've been asked about them. i don't like islamic fundamentalists because they twist a peaceful religion into facism. i don't like capitalists and i don't think you need a reason there. i don't particularly like religious people as i think religion is a form of facism. i don't like catholothism because its logic has a pope sitting in a palace while millions starve each day. i don't like monarchist for the same reason. i don't like liberals because they advocate capitalism. i don't like conservatives as i find them ignorant and greedy. i don't like anarcho-communists or trotskyist as they seem more interested in equality for other groups of people apart from the working class. there i've said it, now are you going to berate me and call me a racist for not liking these people? or is it ok not to like people apart from jews? cause that would make me a nazi wouldn't it? i hate judaism for the same reason you hate capitalism. you don't believe in it. how hard is that to understand?

[yuriandropov]

'jews have been around for thousands of years and, more often than not, it been other people/nations that have been assholes to jew'

oh give me a fucking break!!! now i'm not aware of your religious or ethnic background, but you HAVE to be jewish in making a comment like that. that is unbeleivable!!

'why do so many people hate women' well, i don't know i'm not mysogonist as you think nor have i posted anything to suggest i am. lots more people hate jews than women anyway.

sadam, capitalist? iraq was a key soviet ally and most of its industries are state owned. he is racist though.

how many slave traders and torture doctors read the talmud? neither you or i have the information on that, but i'd make a large bet that most of them had prior knowledge of it. and lets just say, i bet it didn't deter them in there exploitation of the 'gentile'

anyway, i could write a book longer than war and peace about that statement about other nations being assholes too jews. where to begin on such a ridiculous comment? i'll be back later.

[Communist Dominion]

It does seem jews have a kind of instinctal capitalistic nature about them, but this still is no reason to hate the entire people, but also yes id beleive that about corruption and jews in the soviet union.

[Dan Majerle]

You stalinist scum. Read Lev Copelev then come back to me

[Reuben]

Quote: from Communist Dominion on 5:43 am on May 13, 2002
It does seem jews have a kind of instinctal capitalistic nature about them, but this still is no reason to hate the entire people, but also yes id beleive that about corruption and jews in the soviet union.


So now we have denegenerated to race science. This is nothing other than a product of historical anti-semitism. I will educate you and hopefully you will change your views.

For years the jews were forced to be tax collecters and money lenders. In europe they were not allowed into other jobs. So the myth as grown up amongst people such as youself that jews are capitalistic.

Furthermore it is sadly ironic (not least for my people) that if we are to go to and extreme right sit such as www.jewwatch.com, jews will be asssociated with communism. And it just happens that when go to a far left wing site there are people accusing jews of being capitalistic.


Furthermore would you agree that Rosa LUxumberg was capitalistic, or trotsky, or erlich, or zyeglboim. If you look at 1930s poland the predominant jewish political organisation was the Marxist bund.

When we (the jews) first came to the west we were attacked for being poor, and seen as disease ridden. ANd yet the minute we acheive any kind of prosperity bastards like you cant wait to lay into us for that

[I Will Deny You]

you HAVE to be jewish in making a comment like that.
Well, I said something that you disagree with. So how could I be anything but?

'jews have been around for thousands of years and, more often than not, it been other people/nations that have been assholes to jew'
When you quote me, please copy and paste. I don't want the rest of this forum to think that my capitalization skills are nonexistant like yours.

lots more people hate jews than women anyway.
Oh, really? There are a couple million Jews on this planet, but there are (give or take a few million) roughly three billion women on this planet. Even in medieval Europe, one of the most oppressive societies in the history of the world (and not only for the reasons that Reuben gave, although I sure would love to hear your response to them), a Jewish man had it much better than a Christian woman. How many men who live in neighborhoods where 50% of the population is Jewish would have hit Jews in the past year? But how many would have hit women? America is the country whose government I know the most about, and while Geraldine Ferraro was nominated for Vice President more than a decade before Joseph Lieberman was, Lieberman got more of the vote than anyone else. (Electoral college be damned.) This is especially striking when you think about the fact that for every Jew in America, there are at least 25 women. And if you talk to Jewish women and ask them if they get more crap because they're Jewish or because they're women, they will undoubtedly say because they're women.

sadam, capitalist? iraq was a key soviet ally and most of its industries are state owned. he is racist though.
Sadaam Hussein has a history of executing the people who are closest to him and using whoever or whatever he needs to for his own gain. He was a spy for America during the Cold War and would not be in power today if it weren't for them. He was a Soviet ally and an American ally. And having state-owned industries alone cannot mean that he is a communist. He is just power hungry.

how many slave traders and torture doctors read the talmud? neither you or i have the information on that, but i'd make a large bet that most of them had prior knowledge of it. and lets just say, i bet it didn't deter them in there exploitation of the 'gentile'
Once again, the Talmud is not official and was written by many, many rabbis. For every passage in the Talmud that you quoted that may or may not condone what was done by slave traders and torture doctors, there would have been ten or twenty condemning those practices. And there is absolutely nothing that you have quoted from the Torah, the be-all, end-all of Judaism, that would have possibly condoned what was done by these people. The Ten Commandments, the most important of the 500+ mitzvot, are unquestionably anti-torture and anti-slave trade. The Torah in its entirety is certainly anti-torture and anti-slave trade.

anyway, i could write a book longer than war and peace about that statement about other nations being assholes too jews. where to begin on such a ridiculous comment? i'll be back later.
Instead of writing a book longer than War and Peace, why not simply give some evidence? In ancient times, Abraham, a legendary ancestor of both the Jews and Muslims, was kicked out of Sumeria. The Babylonians and Egyptians are probably the most famous of the first civilizations that exploited the Jews. (Who did the Jews exploit in those times?) The Romans and Greeks oppressed the Jews, and don't even try to tell me that it was because they were greedy capitalists. It was because they were monotheists, and one of the religious groups with the most balls when it came to standing up for their beliefs. There was no one who was exploited by the Jews at this time. After the Romans kicked them out, they wandered the earth for years and years and wouldn't have been able to find the time to exploit anyone because they were too busy trying to get food for their children. Like Reuben and I already said, they were oppressed a lot in Medieval Europe. In Khazaria they wre in power, but didn't exploit anyone. In the Languedoc they weren't in power and weren't exploited. In Moorish Spain they were neither exploited nor exploiting anyone else, but once the Inquisition started they didn't have an easy time. In Russia they never had a great deal of power. Up until the twentieth century in America they didn't have any power at all, and in the last 100 years they had power in communist, civil rights and anti-Vietnam organizations.

That was a concise history. If you want any more examples, I have no illusions that you will be afraid to ask.

[yuriandropov]

is this che-live.com or moses-lives.com? as the only people debating my points see to be jewish. IWDY, i take it that from that remark you are jewish. i can't say its a suprise. when i said jews are hated more than women, i meant the percentage of people that hate jews, is greater than that of women haters. it doesn't matter that there are more women in the world.
about copying and pasting, i don't know how.
i've already given my reasons for not liking jews and what they've done in history, not to mention what they've done to my country (i've still had no e-mails????) and to the communist movement worldwide. virtually fucking destroyed it! and left the true marxist-leninist-stalinists to pick up the pieces. if jews weren't involved in marxism, then there would be no need for nazism. all nazism is, is a reaction to jewish communism. if jews weren't in communism, the working class that supported hitler, would have supported the communists! (remember, hitler, in theory, was a staunch anti-capitalist). but, because the jews got greedy (again) they had to try and hijack communism for there own personal gains. could you imagine a jewish communist government? equality for all! exept gentiles. if jews would control the means of production, they would keep it all for themselves! what happened when jewish communism failed? they all hijacked capitalism? now they control the means of production, but not in communist countries, but in capitalist ones. well, thank goodness, jewish bouguais communism is dead. now its time for marxism-leninism-stalinism to take its place as leader of the communist prolaterat revolution.

[Reuben]

god you are an absolute fascists and a racist .

You said you only dislike the jewish religion yet you admitted you agreed with stalins pogrom against the secular jewish nation.
You have also shown the extent to which your hatred of jews is tied in with ethnicity annd a general hat of minorities when you said you hate jews because they continued to identify as jews not as soviet citizens.

ANd to say that jews caused nazism is absolute crap you filthy little nazi.


ANd your country was as much their country. It is bastards like stalin who destroyed it.


I bet you are a nazi posing as a stalinist.

Thine stalin, for your own benefit distance yourself from this lunatic whose opinions are BASED ON NOTHING BUT THE PROOTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION

[El Che]

Yuri everybody on this entire site suports what IWDY and ruben are saying, they just aren`t discussion you "points" because they cant stand people like you and because your BS doesnt even deserve a reply. Its nothing but rascism and hate for people that are just like any other people except that they sometimes have to suffer because of idiots like you. Drop dead.

And also, stalin murdered the socialist movement, but im not going to discuss that with you either because you are not worth my time.

(Edited by El Che at 7:00 pm on May 13, 2002)

[Moskitto]

What's going on, I've been away for a few days.

Anyone, Anti-Seminites, shut up. You look like fools who are a good comedy show.

[yuriandropov]

my points don't deserve responces? that cause you have none. just rhetoric. why hasen't anyone relied to my stalin thread? cause all you can say about stalin is, 'he fucked everything up' 'he was shit' nothing constructive. no-one can deny his achievements. why does everyone agree with IWDY and reuban? because harldy anyone on this site has a fucking clue what communism is. communism is the working class taking control, not some bull shit utopia where everyone loves each other. i'm a nazi, fuck you! i don't like resorting to personal insults, but if my late grandfather (who fought against the nazis) heard that, he would go crazy. who on this site is working class? who believes that the working class ruling over the middle class is the only way to achieve communism? anyone who isn't the working class is my enemy. in the soviet union, jews didn't class themselves as working class, even the poorer ones. they were always jewish. yes, it was there country as much as mine, but they didn't see it lke that, thats why they didn't assimilate. i will give credit to I Will Deny You. she is the only person who has confronted my arguments and sort of answered my points. she is also the only person who hasn't used petty insults in the argument. reuban, you just twist the truth into bullshit. you are just trying to make people feel sorry for jews. and its working! my opinions on jews are based on fucking fact. reuban, i'm going to e-mail you to give even more reasons for my hate of judaism. reasons that i can't give on the site.

ps reuban, can you speak russian? if so i'll e-mail you in russian (or belorussian/ukrainian if thats easier) as it would be easier for me.

(Edited by yuriandropov at 7:40 pm on May 13, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from El Che on 6:59 pm on May 13, 2002
Yuri everybody on this entire site suports what IWDY and ruben are saying, they just aren`t discussion you "points" because they cant stand people like you and because your BS doesnt even deserve a reply. Its nothing but rascism and hate for people that are just like any other people except that they sometimes have to suffer because of idiots like you. Drop dead.

And also, stalin murdered the socialist movement, but im not going to discuss that with you either because you are not worth my time.

(Edited by El Che at 7:00 pm on May 13, 2002)


I think you're wrong, me, stalinsoldiers both agree with yuri, unfortantly, SS was banned because his political views weren't mainstream socialist enough, I suppose me and yuri will be next.

I think we're not worth your time because yuri's realist reasoning out does your idealistic thinking.

[yuriandropov]

if you want to keep denying realism and live in a fantasy world, then ban me and thine stalin. if you want to realise what true communism is, listen to what we say and learn.

[Reuben]

thine stalin I am not heavily keen on banning. so far I have not had any autocation with you, just yuriandropov.

there are two question however that I would really like you to answer. a) I asked before how either of the stalinists would feel about Stalins undeniably racist purges against secular (non-religious) jews, particularly yiddish writers and cultural leaders?

B) you do not have to answer this, but are you prepared to distance yourself from yuriandropov who blamed jews for the holocaust saying " if jews weren't involved in marxism, then there would be no need for nazism. all nazism is, is a reaction to jewish communism."

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 9:47 pm on May 13, 2002
if you want to keep denying realism and live in a fantasy world, then ban me and thine stalin. if you want to realise what true communism is, listen to what we say and learn.


I'm sick of all you stalinist fools. It's you who's living in the past and who's believing in an odd and also inhuman kind of marxist ideology which hasn't any relevance in todays world. Most stalinists are organized within tiny political sects, isolated and not taken seriosly within the left-wing. You are the dreamer, not us.

[yuriandropov]

hold on there reuban! that sounds like your twisting my words around. i never said jews were responsible for the holocaust. thats just ridiculous. the holocaust was one of (if not the most) barbaric, inhumane act ever commited by man. if you lost anyone in it, i am very sorry for you. a member of my own family was killed at one of the death camps. he wasn't jewish and he didn't have to suffer the terrible tortures jews did (he was shot pretty much on arrival i'm led to beleive) but i still feel terrible about the holocaust. the holocaust was a race thing, nothing to do with religion. one of the main reasons hitler didn't like jews was for there apperance.
what i said about nazism, was, it was a reaction to jewish communism. or a jewish world takeover. the holocaust probobly still would of happened without nazism. hitler just would of though of a new name to call his party. he may of even joined the communists! hitler was hell bent on destroying the jewish race full stop. if he wasn't a nazi, he still would have done something to get in power and carry out the atrocities he did.
about the seclular jews under stalin. i have my reasons for supporting stalin on this and it has nothing to do with me being racist. again, i ask you to send me an individuel e-mail if you wish to know.

[yuriandropov]

malte, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! were living in the past? how many trotskyist parties hold power in the world? when was the last time you heard the phrase 'permanent revolution'? face it, stalinism has triumphed over trotskyism. why, because while trotskyist are crying over inequality for jews or promoting hippie festivals and the like, stalinists are launching coups and taking power. the KPRF (russia stalinist party) has almost 1,000,000 ACTIVE members. at a recent may day parade, they had over 100,000 marchers and 100,000 trade unionists took part in a seperate rally. and that was in moscow! once considered the most anti-communist city in russia! in the next 15 years at most, stalinists will take back all power in russia and reform the mighty USSR. stalinists control the duma now anyway. stalinist governments have been reinstated in bulgaria, romania, poland, east berlin, moldova, hungary. stalinist governments remain in belarus, ukraine, china, cuba, laos, vietnam, N.korea and soon to be russia. where is your brand of 'marxism' popular? don't make me laugh.

[Guest1]

Fuck you yuri. You obviously don't understand what communism is. You call yourself a communist cause it's convenient. Communism is about equality. And please, stop pretending you speak for the "poor" Palestinians. I'm a Palestinian and your nazi rhetoric rings hollow to me. I fight against Zionism not because of it's claim to be a "Jewish" cause, but because of its inherent racism. So what's the point of fighting Zionist racism if I bend over to yours? Last month, there were dozens of American Jews in the west bank, defying Israeli occupation forces and giving aid to Palestinians besieged by Ariel Sharon's forces. These people, contrary to Zionist propaganda (there was a full page ad in the newspaper about this), as well as Nazi propaganda, are NOT an insignificant portion of Jews across the world. And in response to your bullshit about Judaism being a fascist religion, EVERY religion believes it is the right religion. It is the reason I became an Atheist, having been born a muslim. But religion is only what one makes of it. If a Jew does not want to be a racist, then that is his choice. His religion doesn't make him a racist. This applies to every religion, so STOP TRYING TO LUMP PEOPLE IN A SINGLE GROUP BECAUSE OF RELIGION. You are no better than the Zionists you claim to hate.

[Edelweiss]

yuri, you are simply lying. Most countries you mentioned have social-democratic or reform-communist governments. btw: I'm not a trotskyist.

[yuriandropov]

all the countries i mentioned have either the former stalinist (reformed) party or a stalinist party in charge. either way, they are either stalinist in there beleifs, or more stalinist than trotskyist.

if you are not trotskyist, what are you? i class marxist, leninist and stalinist in the same bracket. you are either maoist or democratic socialist.

[El Che]

"i class marxist, leninist and stalinist in the same bracket."

Well, then thats your problem isn`t it?

[Edelweiss]

yuri, the only country on your list with a really stalinist government is North Korea. And we all now how fucked up the situation there is. The people are starving.
What I am? I'm not very dogmatic in my views, I'm a socialist and anti-fascist but I don't cage myself with any ideological walls.

[Guest1]

Quote: from Malte on 7:42 pm on May 13, 2002
What I am? I'm not very dogmatic in my views, I'm a socialist and anti-fascist but I don't cage myself with any ideological walls.


You are what you believe, not the label people put on you. We need to distance ourselves from this tendency to align ourselves. We have our own thoughts, our own beliefs, and cookie cutter labels have nothing to do with it.

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Malte on 12:42 am on May 14, 2002
yuri, the only country on your list with a really stalinist government is North Korea. And we all now how fucked up the situation there is. The people are starving.
What I am? I'm not very dogmatic in my views, I'm a socialist and anti-fascist but I don't cage myself with any ideological walls.



But your beloved castro doesn't? He is in the closing stages of a stalinist regieme, look at cuba now compared to 20 years ago, I'm sure you'll notice a difference. China too. They are both fine examples of the stalinist regieme withdrawing once its not needed and bringing a more idealists goverment in place. If it becomes necessary to remind the people of their goals then another stalinist regieme should be installed again.

[Guest]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 12:24 pm on May 14, 2002
. If it becomes necessary to remind the people of their goals then another stalinist regieme should be installed again.

Who are you to tell me what my goals are, or your government? Isn't the whole point of socialism to get away from being told how to live and what to do by the government?

And if I choose to live in such a way, in your Stalinist country, that goes against what you say, but harms no-one, am I to be put against a wall and shot?

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 6:48 pm on May 13, 2002
is this che-live.com or moses-lives.com?

That's disgusting. You are a bigot, plain and simple. And I'm shocked that a Russian can be a Stalinist. Do you not have parents or family members who remember Stalin?? Or did he purge them too (it's OK, like you said, they probably didn't deserve to live anyway).

"SS was banned because his political views weren't mainstream socialist enough..."

SS was banned cos everytime someone disputed him his reply was "fuck you, motherfucker" and he constantly used anti-semitism and supported Bin Laden. I think the main reason was the fact that his arguments had no logic and he was more likely to insult than debate.

Examples:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=22&topic=334 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=334)

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=615&start=50 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=17&topic=615&start=50)

There loadsa others, someone else post some links. Is he still allowed on this forum btw??

[yuriandropov]

your shocked a russian can be a stalinist? you really don't know what going on in russia do you? people are dying from hunger, mafia controls country, even less democracy than in stalins day, homeless people line big city streets, drugs and prostitution everywhere, massive population decrease as all people with any kind of money are moving abroad,as well as young girls moving abroad for prostitution (israel won't even let any russian girl in because they now what there there for!) massive, massive corruption, awful economy (as soon as oil prices drop, russian economy will again collapse). why do you think people want the old days back? in soviet times, not only was USSR a mightly country but you were GUARENTEED, food on the table (pre peristroika anyway), a roof over your head, a job, clothes, free education and free health care.
i was looking on the internet the other day at some US universities. it cost about $20,000 a year to attend! thats inhumane and a disgrace and don't tell me about scholarhips as they only exist to the very gifted. in russia, no one pays anything for education (something that is still around from stalins days). to me, the idea of 'buying' an education is disgraceful. russia stalinist party gets 10's of millions of votes and within 15 years, will be back in power. possibly from another revolution. you need to visit russia, speak to many russians and look at the situation there before you make assumptians.

anyway, unfortunatly for you, i will only be here to educate you on the benefits of stalinism for the next couple of weeks as i am on holiday in england and there is hardly any internet in USSR (because like everything, in russia, only the mafia get computers). also, i never would of even dreamed of vacationing in another country in soviet days. there was so many great destinations, especially in the crimea, but even thats bleak and full of war criminals now days. i am staying with members of my family in england and they all say the same, as soon as KPRF get back in total control of power, they will return to USSR. you have probobly been fed western bullshit about russia being free and all that nonsense. well, the 'free market' hasn't come, the mafia control the economy. western media will say, 'russia has freedom of speech now' well that bullshit too. there is slight freedom of speech but what would a dog prefer, more food and a better life, or to just bark as loud as he can all day? i could go on and on but i won't bore you with the details. just to say, don't assume things, judge for yourself.

[Edelweiss]

yuri, you are sounding like an old Nazi who's defending Hitler because there was no umemployment and a lower criminal rate in Germany when he ruled. Anyway, I'm totally sick of this discussion, especially of the anti-semitism included in yuri's statements and I have decided to lock this topic along with the "White supremist views on 11/9" topic in GPT.