12 policemen gravely injured in Lhasa riot

[Sky]

The riot in Tibet's capital Lhasa on Friday has left 12 policemen and servicemen of the armed police gravely injured, in addition to deaths of 10 civilians, a Tibet Autonomous Region government official said Saturday evening.

Two of the injured policemen are critical, said Zhang Yijiong, deputy Party secretary of Tibet Autonomous Region, at an assembly of local officials in Tibet.

"The sabotage has led to great losses of people's lives and property," Zhang said.

According to preliminary statistics, 22 buildings were set on fire and dozens of police and private vehicles were burnt.

A few vandals carrying backpacks filled with stones and bottles of inflammable liquids smashed windows, set fire to vehicles, shops and restaurants Friday afternoon in a plotted sabotage in the regional capital Friday.
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90785/6374107.html

The Chinese People's Government, following hundreds of years of precedent, has the right to suppress violent riots instigated by the Dalai Lama in the service of foreign predators seeking to partition and enslave China.

Tibet is an inalienable part of China. In the mid-13th century, Tibet was officially incorporated into the territory of the Yuan dynasty. In 1912, Sun Yat-sen, declared to the whole world: "The foundation of the country lies in the people, and the unification of lands inhabited by the Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui and Tibetan people."

The incontrovertible fact is that the Tibet under the guidance of the Communist Party of China has made unprecedented social, economic, and cultural progress. After 40 years of construction, Tibet boasts a dozen or so modern industries such as power, mining, and building materials. Modern science and technology did not exist in old Tibet. The period since the Democratic Reform has seen the establishment of agricultural, construction, public health, pharmaceutical and educational research institutions in Tibet. Education in old Tibet did not exist. Today, there are more than 200,000 students enrolled in the Tibetan autonomous region. It is incontrovertible that the vast majority of the Tibetan people do not approve of the reactionary feudal secessionism advocated by the Dalai Lama clique. It is only within the People's Republic that Tibet can become a thriving socialist society.

[pusher robot]

inalienable

incontrovertible

unprecedented
You are incontrovertibly the unprecendented, inalienable king of thriving socialist superlatives.

[Joby]

Thanks Pusher. That says it all.

Free Tibet!

[Dean]

Tibet may be better off now than it was before China took it over. But that doesn't mean that protests for its freedom from the overbearing Chinese corporate police state should be suppressed. I hope that the Tibetans can free themselves from Imperial China.

[LSD]

Tibet is an inalienable part of China. In the mid-13th century, Tibet was officially incorporated into the territory of the Yuan dynasty.

Yes, the Yuan dynasy better known as the Mongol empire. So why doesn't Ulan Bator claim sovereignty over China any more? Because times change and political lines drawn 700 years ago don't fucking matter.

It's a truly astonishing thing to watch ardent radical Maoists fall over backwards citing feudal law codes to justify imperial aggrandizement. Yes, imperial China claimed sovereignty over Tibet, it also claimed sovereignty over Vietnam, Laos, Korea, and at various times, Japan, Mongolia, and vast swashes of Rusia.

So what?

[Dejavu]

My sympathies to the Tibetan freedom fighters.

[Sky]

So why doesn't Ulan Bator claim sovereignty over China any more?

Because it can't.



Because times change and political lines drawn 700 years ago don't fucking matter.

With respect to Chinese borders, little has changed since the Ming dynasty. Since the Tang Dynasty, the Tibetans and Hans had cemented political kindship ties of unity and friendship and formed close economic and cultural relations, laying a solid foundation for the founding of a unified nation.


It's a truly astonishing thing to watch ardent radical Maoists fall over backwards citing feudal law codes to justify

The Chinese Government in Peking as well as others that support its view would hardly qualify as "radical Maoists".


imperial aggrandizement.

Such terms cannot be used to describe the situation in the Tibetan Autonomous Region. Before the Peaceful Liberation, Tibet suffered from a backward economic system, harsh economic exploitation, a rigid hierarchy, savage political oppression, and theocracy. Since the Peaceful Liberation, Tibet shaked off the penetration of imperialist forces and the political and economic shackles imposed on them. The Democratic Reform eliminated the feudal slaveholders' right to own land and the slaves' bondage to the slaveholders. The theocratic system and the privileges of the clergy were annulled. The reform liberated Tibet's serfs, making them masters of the land and others means of production and gave them personal and religious freedom.


Yes, imperial China claimed sovereignty over Tibet, it also claimed sovereignty over Vietnam, Laos, Korea, and at various times, Japan, Mongolia, and vast swashes of Rusia

China did not "claim" sovereignty over Tibet, but exercised control over it. To accuse China of having claimed sovereignty over Vietnam, Korea, and others is incorrect. Sun Yat Sen's program called for the unification of the five races of China including the Han, Manchu, Hui, Tibetan, and Mongol. Sun Yat Sen would hardly qualify as an imperialist. It was Lenin who said:

"The real emancipation of the Chinese people from age-long slavery would be impossible without the great, sincerely democratic enthusiasm which is rousing the working masses and making them capable of miracles, and which is evident from every sentence of Sun Yat-sen’s platform."

Of course, Mao, Deng, Jiang, and Hu were the heirs of the legacy of Sun Yat Sen.

[RHIZOMES]

My sympathies to the Tibetan freedom fighters.

No.

The "freedom fighters" are nothing more than members of the old Tibetan ruling class who are angry that they were ousted from power.

Do you know anything about Tibet was like BEFORE China? It was a fuedalistic theocratic shithole.

[Bud Struggle]

No.

The "freedom fighters" are nothing more than members of the old Tibetan ruling class who are angry that they were ousted from power.

Do you know anything about Tibet was like BEFORE China? It was a fuedalistic theocratic shithole.

But it was a free fuedalistic theocratic shithole. Now the people are slaves of Communism. Every nation should be free to choose it's own fate.

Imerialism is imperialism under any guise of economic system. China should withdraw and let those poor people alone.


The incontrovertible fact is that the Tibet under the guidance of the Communist Party of China has made unprecedented social, economic, and cultural progress. After 40 years of construction, Tibet boasts a dozen or so modern industries such as power, mining, and building materials. Modern science and technology did not exist in old Tibet. The period since the Democratic Reform has seen the establishment of agricultural, construction, public health, pharmaceutical and educational research institutions in Tibet. Education in old Tibet did not exist. Today, there are more than 200,000 students enrolled in the Tibetan autonomous region. It is incontrovertible that the vast majority of the Tibetan people do not approve of the reactionary feudal secessionism advocated by the Dalai Lama clique. It is only within the People's Republic that Tibet can become a thriving socialist society.

Let this deluded kid post in the main revLeft: PLEASE!!!!:lol:

[Red_or_Dead]

But it was a free fuedalistic theocratic shithole. Now the people are slaves of Communism.

If they were really "slaves" of communism I would be the first in line to support their communist "oppressors". Tibetans are slaves to... Whatever modern Chinese economical system could be called. But definatly not communism. As for being a "free feudalistic theocratic shithole"... Why the word "free" at the begining? There is nothing free about the other three words. Sky is right when he says that Tibet has made a lot of progress under Chinese rule, tho I dont think that that is reason enough for Tibet to stay in China.


Every nation should be free to choose it's own fate.


Every individual.


Imerialism is imperialism under any guise of economic system.

At least here we agree.


China should withdraw and let those poor people alone.


If those people want it, sure. But making China withdraw is an entirely different matter alltogether.

[Vendetta]

Socialist?

China?

Don't make me laugh.

[Bud Struggle]

If they were really "slaves" of communism I would be the first in line to support their communist "oppressors". Tibetans are slaves to... Whatever modern Chinese economical system could be called. But definatly not communism. As for being a "free feudalistic theocratic shithole"... Why the word "free" at the begining? There is nothing free about the other three words. Sky is right when he says that Tibet has made a lot of progress under Chinese rule, tho I dont think that that is reason enough for Tibet to stay in China.

They were happy before. They are not happy now. Happiness belive it or not doesn't come from five year plans or steel production or corn harvested or technology produced. It comes from living life the way you want to live it. China has without a doubY failed to bring happiness to the Tibetans that way the Dali Lama could.




Every individual.

I stand corrected!




At least here we agree.

Twice!!




If those people want it, sure. But making China withdraw is an entirely different matter alltogether.

Thrice!!!

[Red_or_Dead]

I stand corrected!



Twice!!


Youre softening up!:D



Thrice!!!

Not so fast! You said that China should withdraw and let those poor people alone. I said that China should withdraw, IF those people want so. There is a difference. I didnt see any statistics so far, but what if majority of Tibetans want to stay in China?


They were happy before. They are not happy now. Happiness belive it or not doesn't come from five year plans or steel production or corn harvested or technology produced. It comes from living life the way you want to live it. China has without a doubY failed to bring happiness to the Tibetans that way the Dali Lama could.


Where do you get the information that they were happy before? And where did you get the information that they are not happy at present? As for Dalailama... He and his predeccesors were the heads of an opressive feudal state. Most people were serfs. A serf cannot choose how to live, he does as he is told from his landlord. If your definition of happiness is correct, then Tibet was not a very happy place before the invasion.

Maybe China did not bring happiness, but at least I think that it has done a lot better than the feudal regime.

[Black Cross]

But it was a free fuedalistic theocratic shithole. Now the people are slaves of Communism. Every nation should be free to choose it's own fate.
Imerialism is imperialism under any guise of economic system. China should withdraw and let those poor people alone.

Well what is it, imperialism or communism? Or do you fail to see the difference?

[Bud Struggle]

Well what is it, imperialism or communism? Or do you fail to see the difference?

There is Capitalistic Imperialism, e.g. America's war in Iraq. There is Fascist Imperialism, e.g. Nazi Germany's take over of France in WWII. And there is Communist Imperialism, e.g. China's take over of Tibet.

Imperialism isn't an exclusivly of particularly economic. It's the act of aggression by one country over another nation to impose it's political and economic authority. It destroys the national soverenty of the invaded country and establishes an authitarian regime subject to the dictates of the invader.

[Dejavu]

Well the fact that the Tibetans fought such a cruel tyranny makes them heroic in my book. The monks of Tibet I know of to be some of the most pacifistic people on earth.
May they prosper!

[spartan]

There is Capitalistic Imperialism, e.g. America's war in Iraq. There is Fascist Imperialism, e.g. Nazi Germany's take over of France in WWII. And there is Communist Imperialism, e.g. China's take over of Tibet.

Imperialism isn't an exclusivly of particularly economic. It's the act of aggression by one country over another nation to impose it's political and economic authority. It destroys the national soverenty of the invaded country and establishes an authitarian regime subject to the dictates of the invader.

I agree with your analysis here except for the term "Communist Imperialism".

A more proper term for the USSR's Imperialist actions would be Social Imperialism.

[Bud Struggle]

Youre softening up!:D Maybe maybe not. :D



Not so fast! You said that China should withdraw and let those poor people alone. I said that China should withdraw, IF those people want so. There is a difference. I didnt see any statistics so far, but what if majority of Tibetans want to stay in China?

OK, a free election. Have the UN or whomever wach over it to see it's fair. That agreeable?




Where do you get the information that they were happy before? And where did you get the information that they are not happy at present? As for Dalailama... He and his predeccesors were the heads of an opressive feudal state. Most people were serfs. A serf cannot choose how to live, he does as he is told from his landlord. If your definition of happiness is correct, then Tibet was not a very happy place before the invasion.

Maybe China did not bring happiness, but at least I think that it has done a lot better than the feudal regime.

Here we have the essence of my disagreement with Communism. Personally, I wax romantic with the poet who opined:

"Money can't buy me luv."

Money has nothing to do with happiness. There are happy slaves ond unhappy masters. The greatest good for the greatest number has very little to do with money. What we need to do as humans, as brothers and sisters--is to find the things that brings the greatest happiness to the most people and then give from the heart as best we can.

[Sky]

http://www.cctv.com/english/20080320/101288.shtml


Violence in Lhasa has resulted in a heavy toll in lives and property. Official statistics indicate 13 civilians were burned or stabbed to death. Among them are five girls who worked for a clothing store.

This clothing store in Lhasa was targeted by rioters last Friday. Zhuoma is the only survivor. She says she, along with her friends, had no place to hide, and stayed inside the store when the incident took place.

Survivor Zhuoma said, "I saw flames and smoke, then I shouted hurry up, the store's on fire."

Zhuoma ran out and hid in the yard of a nearby hostel. But then she realized what had happened to her friends. Zhuoma is left shocked that she is the only survivor. Days after the violence, Zhuoma still can't accept that her friends are no longer here.

Survivor Zhuoma said, "I never thought about that. We were happy together that morning, but it suddenly changed hours later. I can't believe it, I can't accept the truth that they have left me. I want to ask the rioters why did they do it? I really can't understand why the rioters killed innocent civilians,why they killed our sisters. We, as employees, don't have much money. If they want money, why do they rob us of our lives?"

18-year-old Chen Jia was the youngest among the five victims. Beside the debris, her father can't help himself.

Chen Jia's father said, "My daughter was so feminine, we all loved her."
In an earlier message sent to her loved ones, she said: "Dad, it's so violent outside, we can just stay at the store. Don't worry about me, and tell mother and sister to stay at home and take care."

Official statistics show that so far 156 rioters have surrendered. Local police say they are confident they'll arrest those behind the riots, and will severely punish them.

[Random Precision]

Tibet is an inalienable part of China. In the mid-13th century, Tibet was officially incorporated into the territory of the Yuan dynasty. In 1912, Sun Yat-sen, declared to the whole world: "The foundation of the country lies in the people, and the unification of lands inhabited by the Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui and Tibetan people."

The governing of Ireland by Great Britain had been firmly established since the Norman conquest in 1167 and reaffirmed by expeditions under the rules of Queen Elizabeth I and Oliver Cromwell. The "freely elected" Irish and British parliaments even passed an act of union for the two countries in 1801. What, therefore, did those pesky Irish think they were doing a century later when they were fighting for their own country? Their country was an inalienable part of Great Britain, after all. :rolleyes:

[Sky]

That is a superficial argument because China has never been an imperialist power the way England has. In fact, China had long been subject to semi-colonial humiliation where its territory was under the de facto rule of imperialist powers. And unlike the Irish people towards imperialist England, the people of Tibet have an unbreakable bond with their Han Chinese brothers and are overwhelmingly loyal to People's China.


11th Panchen Lama condemns Lhasa riot
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-03/16/content_6540183.htm


It is also significant to analyze the origins and motives of separatist forces in Tibet. After China was reduced to a semi-colony after the Opium War of 1840, imperialist forces exploited the weakness of the Qing Dynasty and began plotting to carve up China. Tibetan separatism was a tool of the imperialist powers who committed aggression China.

Prior to the democratic reforms of 1959, Tibet had long been a society of slavery under the deospotic rule of the lamas, a society which was far worse than European serfdom of the Middle Ages. Under people's rule, Tibet has made immense progress.

[luxemburg89]

Tibet may be better off now than it was before China took it over. But that doesn't mean that protests for its freedom from the overbearing Chinese corporate police state should be suppressed. I hope that the Tibetans can free themselves from Imperial China.

Excellent point. That's exactly as it is. China is not a Socialist or Communist power it is an Imperial and expansive empire - as once it was - just under the guise of 'Communism'. It is an insult to all pacifistic socialists and communists out there. At the risk of angering a lot of people on this site (to be honest I don't give a shit) I fully support any action that seeks to disrupt or even destroy the Chinese state in its current form.

Sky: no Socialism will ever come out of China. We have to remove the government and start all over again - and must not build Socialism on top of millions and millions of dead bodies and the oppression of workers.

[Sky]

China is not a Socialist or Communist power

An argument to the contrary has not been made.


it is an Imperial and expansive empire - as once it was - just under the guise of 'Communism'.
The characterization of China as an imperialist power is improper. China is a developing country striving to maintain sovereignty and independence from imperialism.

Calling China "expansive" is simply false. China pursues a policy of friendship and peace with her neighbors.



I fully support any action that seeks to disrupt or even destroy the Chinese state in its current form.

The Chinese penal code contains:

Whoever organizes, plots, or acts to subvert the political power of the state and overthrow the socialist system, the ringleaders or those whose crimes are grave are to be sentenced to life imprisonment, or not less than 10 years of fixed-term imprisonment
http://www.com-law.net/findlaw/crime/criminallaw2.html

[RedStarOverChina]

But it was a free fuedalistic theocratic shithole.

Not exactly.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/RedStarOverChina/ATgAAAD2BuzkgtIfbvmt3SWNNYMrF7yui-X.jpg