Pim Fortuyn shot down.

[Hayduke]

Pim fortuyn the extreme right politic from Holland
has been shot down today.

Actually a couple of hours ago, just bringing you these news
while listening to the television.

For the Dutch People for now the only source is television or
http://www.telegraaf.nl

This is the most important turn into Dutch politics and I wonder
what the elections will be.

Could this have any effect ?

PauldavidHewson, Dutch commie and the rest, lets have
a little debate bout this.

[Hayduke]

CNN just got this uploaded.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/WORLD/europe/05/06/fortuyn.shooting/story.fortuyn.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- Maverick Dutch rightwing politician Pim Fortuyn has been shot and wounded.

Fortuyn was shot in the head several times, Dutch Radio said.

He was founder of Leefbaar Nederland (Livable Netherlands), which stunned the Netherlands in March when it won 35 percent of the vote for city council seats in Rotterdam, the second-largest city, the Associated Press reports.

Fortuyn advocates a ban on immigration and has criticized Islam as a "backward culture."

Although he no longer leads the party, polls project that it could win 24 seats in the 150-member parliament in May 15 national elections.

[Hayduke]

Finally found something bout the man that shot the gun.....
http://www.algemeendagblad.nl/images/FORTUYngroot.jpg
Pim Fortuyn neergeschoten

Pim Fortuyn is neergeschoten op het Media-park in Hilversum.Een man heeft een aantal keren op hem geschoten. De schutter is voortvluchtig.


Fortuyn werd beschoten toen hij naar zijn auto liep, na een radio-uitzending bij Ruud de Wildt op Radio 3FM. Hij is volgens ooggetuigen meermalen geraakt in hoofd, hals en borst. Hij ligt nog op straat voor de ingang van het Radio-3-gebouw, aldus een verslaggever van het NOS-journaal, die eraan twijfelt of Fortuyn nog in leven is. De dader zou een man met een baseballpet zijn geweest.
De politie heeft in verband met de aanslag op lijsttrekker Pim Fortuyn nog geen aanhouding verricht. Zij heeft het hele Media Park in Hilversum afgezet, omdat zij vermoedt dat de dader nog op het terrein is. Dat is uit politiekringen vernomen. Op de weg naast het terrein is een grote file ontstaan. Ramptoeristen verdringen zich rond de hekken.
Op het Media Park in Hilversum is een traumahelikopter geland om de neergeschoten lijsttrekker Pim Fortuyn te verzorgen.


Sorry people I know this Dutch, but very important for us Dutch people so maybe Ill translate it later.

[Hayduke]

On rtl 4 they say he's death now.
Im still listening so nothing is sure.........

[Hayduke]

Just heard that a member of Leefbaar Nederland has caught the men that shot Pim.

[PaulDavidHewson]

ok i'm here now.

utterly disgusted by this event.
Still trying to figure out things.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Think of the implications this will have if a foreigner commited this heinious crime.

[Dutch Commie]

the latest news is that the assassin is a Dutch white man

[Hayduke]

Paul David Hewson,

You are so right it takes time to settle.
And for now I can't make a judgement.....

Dutch Commie,

Luckily it was a white man goes if it was a foreigner
it would have a real negative effect against all foreigners.

Lets wait another day untill we judge bout this.

[Sasafrás]

Okay, so is this guy dead or just wounded like the above stated?

[Dutch Commie]

100% dead

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Dutch Commie on 4:28 pm on May 6, 2002
100% deadThanks

[PaulDavidHewson]

may 5th 1945. The netherlands were freed from nazi oppression.
Every year this day is celebrated. We celebrate our return of freedom and freedom of speech. Freedom to control our country like we want it as a community.

Only a day after this yearly celebrated day Pim Fortuyn gets killed. Killed for his political beliefs.

In the recent polls Pim Fortuyn was probably going to get 35 seats from a 150 available seats.
This number of votes would probably make him the next prime-minister in the Netherlands.

There is always a small group of people set on destroying democracy not realising that this only feeds right wings politics.

A sad day in Dutch history. This event will probably destroy all hopes of getting a left wing goverment.

The last political murder in the Netherlands was the murder of Willem van Nassau in 1584 by Balthasar Gerards.

R. de Lijster aka PaulDavidHewson.

[Faky]

And if his political party doesnt fall apart, it only gets more votes.. GRRR

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Faky on 1:48 pm on May 7, 2002
And if his political party doesnt fall apart, it only gets more votes.. GRRR

Sp, true

But I still hope people are wiser then that.
But the whole party could quit it so let just wait....

[PaulDavidHewson]

Just heard from a official statement that the political party will continue.

It's a good thing too, if one lunatic with a gun could decide which political party can continue and which ones cannot than democracy means nothing.

Anyway, there are left-wing parties, so it's only logical that there are right-wing parties.

Also I was there yesterday with the riots in The Hague. I can tell you that alot of people there are just people looking to riot. I reckognise many of them from the local soccer team(FC Den Haag).
They take every oppertunity there is to riot.
Others there rioting where underaged and also there was a small group of Neo-nazis.
And another group of people there were people watching like myself, but some of them pick up a brick and throw it just for the hell of it.

The actual amount of people rioting yesterday was somewhere between 100-200 people and after the fist few police assaults only the hard-core still stayed(friends from each other, etc)

I was standing very close to all of this and i'm present at every little riot that goes on in The Hague.
I know the mentality of this group and their mean reason is just boredom.

I never riot myself, I just like to watch everything from upclose.

(Edited by PaulDavidHewson at 11:50 am on May 7, 2002)

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 3:40 pm on May 7, 2002
Just heard from a official statement that the political party will continue.

It's a good thing too, if one lunatic with a gun could decide which political party can continue and which ones cannot than democracy means nothing.

Anyway, there are left-wing parties, so it's only logical that there are right-wing parties.

Also I was there yesterday with the riots in The Hague. I can tell you that alot of people there are just people looking to riot. I reckognise many of them from the local soccer team(FC Den Haag).
They take every oppertunity there is to riot.
Others there rioting where underaged and also there was a small group of Neo-nazis.
And another group of people there were people watching like myself, but some of them pick up a brick and throw it just for the hell of it.

The actual amount of people rioting yesterday was somewhere between 100-200 people and after the fist few police assaults only the hard-core still stayed(friends from each other, etc)

I was standing very close to all of this and i'm present at every little riot that goes on in The Hague.
I know the mentality of this group and their mean reason is just boredom.

I never riot myself, I just like to watch everything from upclose.

(Edited by PaulDavidHewson at 11:50 am on May 7, 2002)


You have the telegraaf Hewson,

If not check their site at www.telegraaf.nl

Big picture of Fortuyn lying down and some more info bout
the men who killed him.

[queen of diamonds]

"what doesn't kill us can only make us stronger"
perhaps a bad quote for the occaison, but right - wing parties aren't dead in any sense of the word, and this can only feed them
it's undemocratic & it undermines everything that democracy represents, but besides that, it's also completely ineffective

someone, grow a brain!! please!

[PaulDavidHewson]

It would be wise for every dutch person here who doesn't want a right-wing coalition to vote PVDA.

The bigger PVDA gets the more likely it is that the can form a coalition with CDA and "groen links".

And else they might be able to be strong in the opposition.

DDay, you still going to vote for SP?

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 10:05 pm on May 7, 2002
It would be wise for every dutch person here who doesn't want a right-wing coalition to vote PVDA.

The bigger PVDA gets the more likely it is that the can form a coalition with CDA and "groen links".

And else they might be able to be strong in the opposition.


Wish I could, but D-Day isnt allowed to vote yet.....
Its a matter of age.

But if I could it would be still SP, at the moment im really sick of " Paars ", extreme right wing parties and people dare to call themself leftist and live in expensive villa's " groen links ".

SP is the only party that has plans I like and can agree with.

Your voting PVDA yourself Hewson ?
DDay, you still going to vote for SP?

[CheGuevara]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Yes I was planning to vote SP/CDA or PVDA, not sure yet.

But now I'm going to vote PVDA for sure, I hope they get more votes than VVD or LPF, so they can form a coalition with CDA.

[Faky]

I'm really sure I'll vote for SP, because Pvda isnt that a socialistic party anymore..

[Thine Stalin]

I wondered who that was, I got forwarded a couple emails from my dutch friends talking about him, unfortantly I can't speak dutch so I just knew his name and his photo.

One dutch girl tell me he was socialist, other say nationalist, I dunno..

[Hayduke]

Fortuyn was a nationalist.
He told the lies of our old gonverment " Paars " wich made
him very popular...but SP " Socialist Party " is screaming these
for ages.
Pim Fortuyn came into the news with arguments like
" the islam is a idiotic culture "The man himself is gay
so that might explain the argument.
Well cause of these arguments he got as well as many people behind him " we have many problems with immigrants " as well as against him......

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 5:19 pm on May 7, 2002
Good riddance to bad rubbish.


Do you think before you type??

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from D DAY on 3:18 pm on May 8, 2002
Pim Fortuyn came into the news with arguments like
" the islam is a idiotic culture "The man himself is gay
so that might explain the argument.


:o Er...sorry??

Picking up on the immigration point, my half-Dutch friend was today telling me how he kinda liked Fortuyn cos apparently Amsterdam's swarming with immigrants and he thinks that enough's enough. Of course, I gave him a lecture on how bigoted he was being, but I couldn't debate immigration with him cos I've never been to Holland. Is it a serious problem over there??

[CheGuevara]

What the fuck? You're crying over this guy's death? Give me a break.

I look forward to the day when we can go hunting down la migra.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:22 pm on May 8, 2002)

[Hayduke]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 10:55 pm on May 8, 2002

Quote: from D DAY on 3:18 pm on May 8, 2002
Pim Fortuyn came into the news with arguments like
" the islam is a idiotic culture "The man himself is gay
so that might explain the argument.


:o Er...sorry??

Picking up on the immigration point, my half-Dutch friend was today telling me how he kinda liked Fortuyn cos apparently Amsterdam's swarming with immigrants and he thinks that enough's enough. Of course, I gave him a lecture on how bigoted he was being, but I couldn't debate immigration with him cos I've never been to Holland. Is it a serious problem over there??

Pim Fortuyn is gay and we have had turkish people calling gays idiots ect ect..... so I think that were Pim's hate towards the Islam comes from.

Bout the immigrants. Well dont know bout the rest of Holland but I live in a turkish hood. I got no problems with them. Well you got many immigrant kids that like to mess around with everbody.
Like kicking someone in his stomach for nothing. Happend to a friend of mine a few weeks ago. We also have many immigrants that come here take insurance for a couple of " made up " kids and go live as a god in their own country. Most People are sick of this.

Hope this explains it.....any more questions dont be afraid to ask.

Cheers

D-Day

[Ernest Everhard]

Fortuyn's Folly

How an assassinated Dutch politician frustrated journalists.

By Charles Paul Freund



Pim Fortuyn, the assassinated Dutch politician who was highly critical of Muslim immigration, is being universally described in the major media as "right wing," "far right wing," "extreme right wing," etc. Most accounts lump him and his political movement, which was expected to do well in the national elections scheduled for next week, with various anti-immigrant movements elsewhere in Europe. The New York Times, for example, wrote on its front page Tuesday that Fortuyn "carried the same strong anti-immigrant message that has helped propel a resurgent far right to political triumphs in Austria, Denmark, Belgium, and, through Jean-Marie Le Pen, France."

This is a pretty lazy way to tell Fortuyn's story, and fails entirely to take into account his own rhetoric. It illustrates how the process of straining political events through the standard journalistic narrative templates - especially the right-vs.-left narrative -- can simplify a story so greatly that it emerges as a different story, perhaps even the wrong story.

Fortuyn's case is considerably more interesting than are the merely xenophobic political movements of Denmark or Belgium, because he attempted to turn Europe's immigration debate on its head. Although Fortuyn was certainly a "rightist" -- he compared himself to Italy's Silvio Berlusconi -- he described his movement not as an anti-immigrant crusade, but as an effort to save Dutch liberal ideals. Indeed, as an openly gay politician, he often described his positions in terms of gay identity politics. In brief, he coopted a "progressive" rhetoric.

Fortuyn consistently played a "victimhood" card in his immigration statements, claiming that the Dutch tradition of tolerance was under attack by an intolerant Islam that rejected assimilation, that his identity as a gay man was threatened by gay-bashing Muslims who characterized him as "lower than a pig," and that the ideal of gender equality was being undermined by Muslim attitudes toward women. Whatever else one may say about Fortuyn and his movement, an easy characterization of him as "extreme right" seems to miss the point of his rhetorical challenge.

Of course, this characterization did not begin with his slaying. Although the American press largely ignored Fortuyn's rise, the European press covered him closely -- especially after his party essentially won the March municipal elections in Rotterdam -- and it consistently described him in these same terms. In April, Fortuyn attempted to address the issue directly, telling a group of reporters that "I find it intolerable that I am being compared with statesmen such as [Austria's Joerg] Haider and Le Pen. My policies are multi-ethnic and certainly not racist."


Fortuyn pointed out that he did not call for repatriating immigrants, as did some politicians elsewhere, but rather argued for their assimilation into Dutch culture and its pro-diversity traditions. (It should be noted that, according to Fortuyn, the densely-populated Netherlands is "full.") He also claimed that as much as 20 percent of his support in the Rotterdam vote came from ethnic minorities. Indeed, some of his party's candidates are non-white immigrants from such places as Cape Verde.

Reporters treated Fortuyn's statements as political spin, which they certainly were. London's Financial Times, however, went out of its way to counter his statements in its own news account. According to the FT's April 10 story, Fortuyn's talk about diversity, gender equality, and gay dignity merely provided a convenient "way out" for Dutch voters who are concerned about immigration issues, but "who have no wish to be branded racist." This may well be true, but the paper offered no evidence to support the assertion, which came across as attempted mind-reading rather than journalism. Nor did the paper bother to challenge Fortuyn's claim to significant ethnic support. As for his party's non-white candidates, Fortuyn is "parading" them.

Maybe he was parading them, and maybe his whole rhetorical campaign setting immigration against diversity, gay dignity, and so on, was no more than a ploy. But what is striking about the case has been the effort by those writing about Fortuyn to protect progressive language and rhetoric from him. Fortuyn, both alive and dead, is categorized as a xenophobic right-wing extremist, period. That he was a gay former academic who formulated a series of unusual rhetorical positions is buried deep in the accounts about him, and treated as a series of curiosities. Perhaps that is because if Fortuyn's pro-diversity, gay-identity rhetoric were treated as central to his political challenge, then the power that such rhetoric currently enjoys might be undermined.

For now, appeals to diversity, gender equality, etc., are reserved for groups that, in contemporary journalistic discourse, are given "oppressed" status. When such groups use these appeals, or when these appeals are used on their behalf, it's legitimate. But when the same appeals are used to argue against the apparent interests of such groups, it's a category violation. In other words, you can't allow the villain any of the good lines without either raising the status of the villain or lowering the status of the lines, and that in the end that is one of the most revealing aspects of the Fortuyn story.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Well, the problem Fortuyn stated was:
It is ridiculous that muslim men go back to their own country to marry some female from a more backward village. Muslim men find western woman to emancipated.
They like their wives to be obedient.

Futhermore, I live in The hague as I stated before and we have a big immigrant problem here.
Facts:
- My mother got stabbed in her neck by immigrants from Marocco
- My brother got robbed at gun point by north african imigrants.
- A friend of mine got robbed twice in fron of his own door and beat up.
- When I was younger I got harassed a lot by north african immigrants.
- North african immigrants broke into my grandfather's house and looted the place.
- North African immiogrants always cause riots here in the Hague whenever they get the chance(mostly for nothing, but just out of boredom)
- I've seen nort-african immigrants riots along with Fortuyn supporters when it was clear that Fortuyn was dead.
- north african immigrants have stolen my motorbike and various bikes on at least 8 occasions.
- A friend of mine was robbed from his cellphone while making a phone call.(they jerked the phone from his hand and drove off)

The list goes on and on..

- 80% of our prison capicity is momentarily being occupied by north african immigrants.(Immigrants make up for about 6% of the total population here in the Netherlands)
- The large cities here in the netherlands consists for 50% out of immigrants.


Yes, there is a problem here in the netherlands with immigrants.
The problem is that they don't intigrate into the Dutch society because they come from a more backwarded and stricter region of the world.

Also Dutch law system is extremely lenient, so they think they can get away with everything.

I have some north african immigrants who are friends of mine and even they agree that there is a problem and they are often ashmed they way their people act here in the Netherlands.

If you look at them in a way they don't like they WILL beat you up without a doubt, or even worse stab you a few times if you put up a fight.

When Fortuyn said "idiotic culture" he meant that Islam is more backwarded and not modern.(semi-medieval culture)

I'm not a supporter of him, but he did make some valid points, I don't agree on his foreigner policy but I do agree that some stricter measures must be taken if we want to preserve our safety.

[PaulDavidHewson]

"CheGuevara:
What the fuck? You're crying over this guy's death? Give me a break.

I look forward to the day when we can go hunting down la migra.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:22 pm on May 8, 2002) "


Ok, i'll explain one more time.
We live in a democracy. People vote left/ right/centre/centre-left/centre-right/etc/etc.

A massive amount of the dutch population supported this man. He was going to smash the opposition with the ammounts of votes he'd get if he were still alive.

The day you murder a political leader for his beliefs when a massive amount of citizens agree with him that is the day you murder democracy.
This means a individual or a minority can actually decide who can talk and who can't.

The last political murder in the nertherlands was in 1584.

We have always taken pride in the fact that almost every politician in the Netherlands can walk freely on a saturday in a mall and not get harassed, he can walk there freely without bodyguards, because no one will harm him/her, but now this has ended.


Oh, btw what is the overall age of people posting here?? There are too many retarded and narrow-minded fools here trying to make a point without arguments/proof.

I challenge everyone who is underaged here to actually think before posting.
People won't find you COOL because you say things like:
"I'm going to fuck up the US goverment, muhahaha, Che would have wanted me to do this!!"
They will acutally find you retarded and a waste of bandwith.
So think first then rethink and then post.

(Edited by PaulDavidHewson at 7:58 pm on May 8, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

A massive amount of the German population supported Hitler.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 11:52 pm on May 8, 2002
"CheGuevara:
What the fuck? You're crying over this guy's death? Give me a break.

I look forward to the day when we can go hunting down la migra.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:22 pm on May 8, 2002) "


Ok, i'll explain one more time.
We live in a democracy. People vote left/ right/centre/centre-left/centre-right/etc/etc.

A massive amount of the dutch population supported this man. He was going to smash the opposition with the ammounts of votes he'd get if he were still alive.

The day you murder a political leader for his beliefs when a massive amount of citizens agree with him that is the day you murder democracy.
This means a individual or a minority can actually decide who can talk and who can't.

The last political murder in the nertherlands was in 1584.

We have always taken pride in the fact that almost every politician in the Netherlands can walk freely on a saturday in a mall and not get harassed, he can walk there freely without bodyguards, because no one will harm him/her, but now this has ended.


Oh, btw what is the overall age of people posting here?? There are too many retarded and narrow-minded fools here trying to make a point without arguments/proof.

I challenge everyone who is underaged here to actually think before posting.
People won't find you COOL because you say things like:
"I'm going to fuck up the US goverment, muhahaha, Che would have wanted me to do this!!"
They will acutally find you retarded and a waste of bandwith.
So think first then rethink and then post.

(Edited by PaulDavidHewson at 7:58 pm on May 8, 2002)


Lets be honest Hewson with our laws you get away with everything. Even I a boy that grew up here knows that.

You are right bout alot of facts, also about the way they will
beat you up if you look at them the wrong way.
So True.

But I have some nice Turkish friends, so I dont like the way people generalize this prob as all the immigrants. And thats why I really hoped the man that killed fortuyn wouldnt be a immigrant.

Bout your challenge Hewson, I guess I fall under the underaged people but like the problem with the immigrants dont generalize to all of us.

D-Day

[PaulDavidHewson]

I was actually referring to people like StalinSoldiers amongst others, but I didn't want to harm anyone's feeling by referring to them.
Those who make lame remarks as I stated before know they are being adressed.
And you are not one of them :)

You are right of course by saying that you should not generalise, but it's very difficult to discuss specific cases and the likes in a thread with broad issues.

It is almost difficult not to generalise in the case of immigrants in the Netherlands, since such a large portion of immigrant youth is responsible.
I actually feel compelled to say: "there are always exceptions to the rule"
Your Turkish friends are exceptions to the rule.
But Again I can tell you that I have some Maroccan and Turkish friends.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 12:45 am on May 9, 2002

It is almost difficult not to generalise in the case of immigrants in the Netherlands, since such a large portion of immigrant youth is responsible.
I actually feel compelled to say: "there are always exceptions to the rule"
Your Turkish friends are exceptions to the rule.
But Again I can tell you that I have some Maroccan and Turkish friends.

And I will not doubt it Comrade,

I just hope that there youth can see if they keep doing this, it could harm their people in Holland. Their actions make people like Pim Fortuyn get votes. Their Messing around could really mean a danger to their fellow people in Holland.
Let just hope that they could see it fast enough....

[PaulDavidHewson]

How do people feel here that a left-extremist murdered Pim fortuyn?

The man murdered Fortuyn because Fortuyn wanted free trade for the Mink-fur business.
The man is believed to be an extreme animal-right defender.

[CheGuevara]

I couldn't care less. Good riddance to bad rubbish. However, I would say that it's a little extreme to kill someone just because they support free trade of mink coats. I find mink coats disgusting, but I'm not one of those crazy people who insists that animals lives are worth as much as those of humans. Combined with his other shit, however, I'm not crying my eyes out.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 12:13 am on May 11, 2002
How do people feel here that a left-extremist murdered Pim fortuyn?

The man murdered Fortuyn because Fortuyn wanted free trade for the Mink-fur business.
The man is believed to be an extreme animal-right defender.


Doesnt do anything to me either.
The guy might be left but almost everbody is only looking at the animal right defender.......

Most of them dont even know he's left.