View Full Version : For all of u dam capitalists
man in the red suit
4th May 2002, 02:42
this is a quote from Karl Marx which I find very enlightening; "communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society;all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriation."
so howd u like that? hehe
Raztro
4th May 2002, 04:27
I love that quote...
man in the red suit
4th May 2002, 06:10
that is a very kool quote raztro, i'll have to remember that one. Was it Castro's idea to start the revolution in Bolivia or Che's? It was Che's right? Just checking....
sypher
4th May 2002, 17:30
"No me mandes muchos hombres. Mandame pocos, pero que sean muy buenos." - "Don't send me many men. Send me a few, but let them be very good."
do you think that was the fall of the revolution?
STALINSOLDIERS
4th May 2002, 18:52
yeah thats going to be the revolution im going to start..
Fires of History
4th May 2002, 20:38
Yes, Che knew he didn't need many men. After all, when they invaded Cuba they had only about 80 men, and after an early ambush by Batista's men, their numbers fell to about half that. But still they eventually won. GO CHE!
(Edited by Fires of History at 8:42 pm on May 4, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
4th May 2002, 22:01
I think there are a few points we are missing here. I think most of us can agree than
neither pure communism nor pure capitalism exists. The present systems that
contemporary empires are based on lie on a spectrum between the two theoretical
ideologies. Also, we could argue all day about the acadmic principles of each system,
but real world data proves that Capitalism is the much better system. The
free-marketcapitalist system that America represents has produced the strongest
economy that has ever existed, and the best standard of living ever. Even America's
poor live relatively well. This is a measurable fact. Notions of exploitation of thirld world
countries for the most part amount to nothing more than making excuses for nations that
have not been as industrious and ingeneous (and to some extent lucky) as the US has
been. I mean, please, exploitation? What do you call standing in line 4 hours for a loaf of
bread? Killing 50 million people (Stalin)? What more needs to be said??? Another
consideration is that capitalism encourages individual innovation and acheivement. This
principle is proven in reality in thatthe vast majority of technological innovation that has
benefitted humanity in the last 150 years has come out of the United States. This
includes both the computer you are looking at and the internet you are communicationg
through. Also, we discuss exploitation of smaller countries by the U.S, but fail to address
the fact that the US is by far the most humane and alturistic country on earth, both in
terms of dollars spent (debt relief and direct monetary aid) and in people and
organizations contrributing service and aid abroad. When there is a major naturalk
disaster, what is the only country to contribute money and resources to assist in aid? The
USA. I cant remember a time when the Soviets, Cuba, or China contributed to foreign
relief of any kind. Finally, immigration. The USA has quite a challenge accomodating the
thousands of immigrants (worker-class, mind you) that enter its borders daily. Many of
these people are risking both their and their family's life just for an opportunity to get in.
Why? Because capitalist "workers" still live much better than communist or socialist
"workers". Needless to say, China, Cuba, and the then Soviet union (failed
system,remember?) had no immigration problem. Their border control budgets were
allocated to keep people in!!! Its a self explanatory phenomenon!!! So, we could argue
academic and philisophical principals all day, but real world data and behavior makes it
self evident that the American form of Capitalism is by far the best system going today.
Also, I have been pretty much discussing economic aspects of capitalism, to say
nothing of the personal freedoms and the opportunity given to Amercian citizens to
pursue success and what makes them happy. These fundamental principles are, to say
the least, severely hindered by centrist governments. Look at real world activity, and
you see the best real world system.
pastradamus
5th May 2002, 01:12
nobody in their right mind would read that CI! too long and boring!
man in the red suit
5th May 2002, 03:03
yes pastradamus is right you capitalist imperial guy.
too long. too boring. spice it up a bit.
Communist Dominion
6th May 2002, 05:41
@ capitalist imperial, 4 hours for a loaf of bread? 50 million died? well those figures are real text book sums! ive heard that 3 million died because of direct action of stalin (goulaggs, assasination etc) and im just guessing here but stalin is no weather god, so how exactly did he cause the famine? he did the best thing possible, the collective farms saved millions of lives by feeding them! and please do not get mixed up with the 20 milion who died at stalingrad and the 30 million + who died in the nazi advance into soviet territory.
And yes your exploitation is worse, it out strips entire countries of their capital throught globelization! You impoverish millions and keep them there and dare to insult a communist leader on his action! smug one to talk slave-driver!
CI you just donīt get it do you...!?!?
We (at least me I hope most agree with me) are not saying that our system works better, we are saying that your system SPOILS poeple, fills them with greed, hate, inhumanity, gives them the desire to be richer and richer, people forget any moral code, all they can think about is MONEY, and how to get more!!!
if that is the system you want to live in then it must be because you have been "brainwashed" by cappie propoganda...and that is how the world is becoming..
bad, because of that people must wake up before itīs to late...rise up..AGAINST the SYSTEM as it is nowadays
ps
I agree with all the others you have to learn how to write so people acctuall read you writings...
----
where there is will there is a way!
Ernest Everhard
6th May 2002, 22:30
im just guessing here but stalin is no weather god, so how exactly did he cause the famine?
I don't think we need to explain the POLITICS of famine but here's an interesting link about stalin's powers over the weather.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pjones/russian/Ukra...ian_Famine.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/pjones/russian/Ukranian_Famine.html)
RGacky3
7th May 2002, 01:28
I agree with what angry said, capitalism, causes greed, but only to the rich capitalists, the proletariate, is not greedy, the proletariate only wants to live, and survive, the capitalist is greedy and always wants more, and he gets more by exploiting the proletariat.
Anarcho
7th May 2002, 07:26
The proletariat is human, and hence greedy..... otherwise why try to earn more than is needed for the basics of survival?
But that, alas, is another debate.
CD- I've told you, the collectivism of Soviet farms caused a massive drop in output.... part was the drought, part was in fact because land that was healthy and fertile wasn't being used to the best of it's potential.
Even Russian scholars today feel that the Kholkaz (sp?) were a bad idea.
Mac OS Revolutionary
7th May 2002, 09:40
The US may have a high living standards but what about all the countries that it takes advantage of to earn its flithy dollars. I wonder how many sweat shops in how many countries the companies of the US import from?
Anarcho
8th May 2002, 07:24
I still say that the problems of sweat-shop labor is not the US's to fix. It is up to the country that the shops are in to regulate their own labor laws.
Besides, what could the US do? Fine the companies, and then have them pull out of the US completely, stripping jobs away from US citizens as well?
It's a tough situation.
Mac OS Revolutionary
8th May 2002, 10:18
But by using the sweat shop goods the US is encouraging the practice!
Think, Anarcho, think..
if the U$ would fine th companies of using child labor or
underpaid persons who work in sweat-shops they would stop it and make the U$ companies fabrique their products in the U$, that way they would not get so much money of their products, and if you are gonna say to me know that they would charge more for their products, nobody would buy them..
Of cousre this would make the U$ economy stronger wich is not good, but the companies would stop using child-labor or grown underpaid sweat-shop workers..
wich is a good thing
and of cours there is the other way, forcing the companies to paying their workers more, f.ex. stop buying their products until..
but that would be VERY hard for all the stupid fucks
that donīt give a fuck about who makes their product
wouldnīt stop buying the products
reagan lives
8th May 2002, 16:19
...which seems to shore up Anarcho's argument that the problem can only be fixed by the countries in which the violations occur.
concerned
8th May 2002, 16:23
It's not the US responsibility to control what their companies do offshore. If China doesn't ahve any good labor laws, that is their problem and it is for them to solve.
Angry: socialism and communism spoil people even worse. They get used to the fact that they cannot really improve significantly their way of life by wortking hard, so whay work at all. And if they force you to go to work, like the Soviet Union tried to do, then they just get to work drunk and don't do much. Why care? It's not going to make any dofference for them, and they cannot get fired.
Yes, there might be a few people spoiled in capitalism. There is no perfect system. And there will always be spoiled people no matter what the system. But overall I think communism and socialism does a lot more damage.
A few..? A few..?
Are you stupid..?
The system has already brainwashed you, :)
I am not gonna argue with you īcause I know better..
btw didnīt you see the post from malti about you damn cappie fucks..YOU are supposed to stay out of here..
not that I canīt argue with you, itīs just that I have so much better to do than argue with someone who is both greedy, stupid and brainwashed..
why do you even bother to post at this page..?????
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 19:23
Talk about brainwashed, you are foillowing a system that has been proven a failure (Soviet Union). Even current countries that practice communism lag behind capitalist countries in economy, technology, and human rights, just look at the real world, and stop waiting for the government to take care of you. Why do you think all of the greatest inventions come from the USA? Because we have the freedom to pursue our ideas, and a competitive environment in which to foster them. The USA is #1 in economy, #1 in technology, # 1 in military, #1 in immigration. Those are the facts. All commmunist regimes take a bask seat to the USA. Face it.
Son of Scargill
8th May 2002, 19:56
angry.
I think you've misunderstood the sticky.This forum is the only one they are supposed to post in.
Capital Imperialist/Ernest Everhard.
I'm afraid that sweatshop labour is a problem that the developed west is not totally detached from.Second and third world nations need investment in order to compete in your neo-liberal global scheme of things.Nation undercuts nation as to how cheap they can provide labour,give tax incentives or allow them to operate with a free hand.Sometimes too freely,with disatrous consequences for the enviroment.
Also,CI,you left out the facts that the soviets were isolated by the west in terms of technology and information embargoes,yet still invented many useful things for society.Also,the SSSR was quite free with aid for other communist nations,unfortunately at the expense of its people.The US on the other hand,could exchange ideas and infomation with the majority of the worlds nations,thus giving the west an advantage over the soviets.I am certainly no apologist for Stalin,but there were major advances under his dictatorship.
I'll finish with a quote I heard in the Czech Republic recently."Under the old regime,we would pack up the car,and go for a holiday in Croatia every year.Now we can go where we like,but cannot afford to even get to Croatia."
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 20:09
The USSR was isolated from the west as we (USA) were isolated from the Warsaw nations, it was a 2 way street. Howeve, I'm sure for every soviet technological invention or innovation that has benefitted the world, I can name 10 American inventions that have done the same on an even broader scale. Communist systems provide little incentive for innovation or invention. As for third-world nations, they must take responsibility for their own economy and development, and not blame the USA for their lack of development or initiative.
Man o man, CI you are just so the "I am proud of being an amerikkan" type (to bad for you btw)
well I feel sorry for you..
and what third world nations blame their bad economy on the U$??? if you are talking about Cuba (I donīt look at them as a third-world nation) then yeah it is mostly your (U$) fault, because of the uhh what do you call it buissness ban :) (donīt know the word)
and even if you are #1 in technologie and some other things I wouldnīt be proud of being you...filthy bastards...:)
And if you are gonna be stupid and judge communism by thinking of the soviet union, wich educated every child under thir command and gave jobs to most people..
then you are..hmm..just..just..stupid..:)
ps
son of scargill, I donīt acctually know you opinions on politics, but I did not misunderstand the sticky :)
I just donīt like cappies, I know they are allowed to write here but I canīt understand why they come here and try to argue, try to tell us their system works better
stupid aint it :)
"Talk about brainwashed, you are foillowing a system that has been proven a failure (Soviet Union)."
Interesting argument. You're saying, by implication, that capitalism has succeeded where Communism failed. However, it's a rather bizarre notion of success, isn't it?
In the richest country in the world, we have people going hungry, people living on the streets, tremendous inequality in education and wealth distribution, but you say that this is a success. We have human rights violations, state sanctioned murder, prison labor, police abuse, the gov't peddling drugs, people being detained for months without probable cause and without being charged, and you say that this is a the face of success. We have a government that supports dictators, intervenes in the democratic process of foreign countries and spies domestically on citizens with beliefs that differ from policy (like the church groups that opposed funding the Contras) and you call this a success.
Golly, you sure aim low.
Some of us think that we can do better, that this isn't the best world possible. That, I suppose, is the major difference. You think that this is the best we can do, that huge inequality is not only acceptable but a good thing, and we don't. Amazingly, you believe that protecting the elite from what the rest of the world has to deal with is the best we can do.
To quote one of your boys, I think we know who the nattering nabobs of negativism really are.
vox
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 20:35
I don't have to tell you our system works better, the real world shows us that it does, if you are too blind to see it, I'm sorry. By the way, what good is it if the soviet government gave jobs and schooling to its people, if it couldn't sustain it's government? Now all of those people are without jobs or education, so it didn't work, did it? Besides, what did they teach them? Obviously not much, because the vast majority of inventions and innovations in the world come from capitalist countries, cheifly the USA!!! These are the facts, not just words
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 20:44
Vox, of course we could do better, humanity can always improve, but given every other system and country that exists, I think the USA is on the best track. You can put your liberal spin on some of our policies, thats fine. But how can you look at the shortcomings of some of our institutions and think that you can even come close to comparing them to some of the oppression and direct human rightrs violations that have occurred and are ocuuring elsewhere? By comparison the US is among if not the most humane country there is, and we are for sure the most alturistic. No other nation even comes close to giving the $$ and aid to others that we do. If you really believed that strongly about how bad it was here, you would live in a socialist country. I know its cliche', but its true
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 7:23 pm on May 8, 2002
# 1 in military.
Thats not true.There are nations with better weapons then America.The UZI by isreal and G3 by germany and loads of other weapons.M1A2 is a good tank but I think it will lose in a battle with a Merkava3.
http://anton768.freeservers.com/mk3.jpg
Merkava3
(Edited by SU37 at 4:56 pm on May 8, 2002)
reagan lives
8th May 2002, 21:00
"we have people going hungry, people living on the streets, tremendous inequality in education and wealth distribution, but you say that this is a success. We have human rights violations, state sanctioned murder, prison labor, police abuse, the gov't peddling drugs, people being detained for months without probable cause and without being charged, and you say that this is a the face of success. We have a government that supports dictators, intervenes in the democratic process of foreign countries and spies domestically on citizens with beliefs that differ from policy (like the church groups that opposed funding the Contras) and you call this a success."
Name one of the things on this list that was not experienced to a far worse degree in the USSR.
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:35 pm on May 8, 2002
I don't have to tell you our system works better, the real world shows us that it does, if you are too blind to see it, I'm sorry. By the way, what good is it if the soviet government gave jobs and schooling to its people, if it couldn't sustain it's government? Now all of those people are without jobs or education, so it didn't work, did it? Besides, what did they teach them? Obviously not much, because the vast majority of inventions and innovations in the world come from capitalist countries, cheifly the USA!!! These are the facts, not just words
So socalist nations never created good weapons.The man how created the M16 was fully schooled and very smart ,The man who created the AK-47 didn't have a very good eduction and created a way better gun.The m16 jammed and had to be cleaned every day.The Ak-47 never has to be cleaned and hafe of its parts can be broken and it will still work prefect.Get your facts straight.
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 21:06
SU-37, thoise are single weapons, i'm talking over-all military, and by the way, the abhrams would devastate any modern tank, including the merkava, or leopard, our air force is far superior to anyones (the SU-37 is a good dog-fighter, but we are not in the age of dog-fighting, the f-22 raptor or even an f-14 would take out the su-37 before it even saw an enemy aircraft) and, of course, the true power of any military has a foundation in its Navy, and no other country even comes close to the US Navy. The US Military is by far the most dominant force on earth, bar none
"No other nation even comes close to giving the $$ and aid to others that we do."
Actually, the USA gives less, as a percentage of its GDP, than any other industrialized nation in the world. Feel free to look it up, it's a figure that's widely available online.
The whole "others are worse" argument is rather weak. I suppose that the argument could be made that someone who has killed three people is somehow "better" than a person who has killed ten people, but either way, they're both pretty bad, no?
As for the US being altruistic, please give an example. I can't think of any instance where the US did not act solely in its own self-interest.
By the way, if you're looking for someone to defend the Leninist-Stalinist regime of the USSR, you'll have to find someone else. I'm opposed to Leninism in theory and practice, and I've always maintained that stance. I'm not quite sure how someone can call Authoritarian Collectivism a communist system, but they do (though Marx himself was opposed to collectivism, but that's another story).
I suppose my question is how can you look at the shortcomings of the USA and call it a success when, very clearly, there is so much more to be done?
vox
Moskitto
8th May 2002, 21:56
If communists are dumb then explain Albert Einstein.
"SU-37, thoise are single weapons, i'm talking over-all military, and by the way, the abhrams would devastate any modern tank, including the merkava, or leopard, our air force is far superior to anyones (the SU-37 is a good dog-fighter, but we are not in the age of dog-fighting, the f-22 raptor or even an f-14 would take out the su-37 before it even saw an enemy aircraft) and, of course, the true power of any military has a foundation in its Navy, and no other country even comes close to the US Navy. The US Military is by far the most dominant force on earth, bar none"
WOW that proves the left wingers wrong doesn't it...
I can't be arsed reading the first couple of pages, coz its all very samey...so the right wingers are now proving their superioty bby stating they can oppress better, by making better weapons? Why don't all the left wingers do as i do...and not bother with this section. Its really not worth all the energy. let them believe what they want. They are going to believe what they want either way, so don't bother with them. PLEASE!!!
Moskitto
8th May 2002, 22:31
A communist invented the nuclear Bomb (Albert Einstein.)
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 22:36
of course the contributions as a percentage of gdp will be relatively smaller, our gdp towers over even the country with the 2nd highest gdp, besides, its still more than a communist country or any other country would give any other nation that is not a member state. and are you really saying that you can't remember when the US gave aid outside of its own interest? how about that earthquake in pakistan about 5 years ago? remember? we have no vested interest in pakistan, but we sent aid, $$, and relief workers there somalia? we have no infrastructure or investment there, etheopia? in all of these examples, we were the siongle largest contributor of aid, look it up
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 9:06 pm on May 8, 2002
SU-37, thoise are single weapons, i'm talking over-all military, and by the way, the abhrams would devastate any modern tank, including the merkava, or leopard, our air force is far superior to anyones (the SU-37 is a good dog-fighter, but we are not in the age of dog-fighting, the f-22 raptor or even an f-14 would take out the su-37 before it even saw an enemy aircraft) and, of course, the true power of any military has a foundation in its Navy, and no other country even comes close to the US Navy. The US Military is by far the most dominant force on earth, bar none
F-14 had problems fighting Mig25's and Mig21's.But the F-22 is a good match to the Su-37.Su-37 is up-to date aircraft and has TVL system and way better radar then the F-14. You are just a dumbass that doesn't have a clue about notting but thinks he does.Abram M1A2 is a deadly tank but not the best in the world ,you moron.Merkava3's are one of the world's best tanks.F-14 an old out of date fighter.Su-37 made its test flight in 1996.I have never met a person on online as stupid and dumb as you in all my life.Your facts must come from CNN.com or one of Bush's speechs.Also your grammar is bad ,plus theres something callled an Edit button
(Edited by SU37 at 6:50 pm on May 8, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 22:44
where is your source that einstein was a commie??? why didn't he defect to the soviet union, then? besides, I never said that any individual was dumb, I said communism does not foster the individuality and competitive spirit necessary for intelligent people to realize their fiull potential and maximize their contribution to society, history shows us this
reagan lives
8th May 2002, 22:49
vox...there will always be a long way to go. There will always be improvements to be made. There will always be things to fight for. Capitalism, as I've said before, is great because it is designed on exactly this premise. It is about evolution and innovation. It will always have a long way to go, but it will always be moving towards the goal.
If you're looking for someone to defend all the social problems that you brought up, you'll have to find someone else. I want to see those things fixed as much as you do. I just believe that the answers to those problems lie in the framework of successful capitalism.
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 22:58
SU-37 your language and your idiotic comments indicate your intelligence. The F-14's never had a problem dogfighting mig 25's or mig 21's, the f-14 is an interceptor, and would score a kill on a mig 21 or mig 25 before those planes would even see it. The only time migs went against f-14's in real life was 2 times in the 1980's, on 2 different occaisions, US Tomcats went against mig fighters from Syria the score? f-14's:4 kills, migs: 0, go read your history, how old are you, 12? Russians have enough of a time just keeping their equipment working let alone trying to compete with American technology, how stupid the soviets were to build a dogfighter for 21st century combat. You'll never see the Raptor caus'e its stealth, and can fly supersonic without afterburners, the su-37 wouldn't have a chance
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 23:06
oh, and the abhrams has much better opticcs, laser range finder, and fire control system than your sorry merkava, and its faster and more manuverable. I'd be surprised to see the merkava even run for more than 5 minutes before breaking down, sorry ass russian hardware
F-22 is a missle plantform not a dogfigther.Also a the Su-37 has a Infar-Red Scanner that picks up any object with heat on it.Stealth is no good againest a Infar-Red Scanner.Also a B-117 was shot down over Serba by SAMS ,Pickedup on Infar-Red,the aircraft was in Stealth mode.Also The Mig29 has Infar-RED too!.Su-37 is a super-manoeuvarble,and is all-out preforming fighter.I laughed at your last post,you sound more idiotic then other cappies in this form.
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:06 pm on May 8, 2002
oh, and the abhrams has much better opticcs, laser range finder, and fire control system than your sorry merkava, and its faster and more manuverable. I'd be surprised to see the merkava even run for more than 5 minutes before breaking down, sorry ass russian hardware
The Merkava3 and the Merkava series is a series from Isreali,god your a moron.
SU37 I agree with you but I still think the Saab JAS-39A Gripen is one of the best combat aircraft exizting..
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 23:25
please, I never said the f-22 was a dogfighter, it is an all out air superiority fighter, the russians are stupid to design a dog-fighter when it will be intercepted from long range by the f-22, and the thrust nozzles on the f-22 are designed to reduce heat signature, which will compromise infa-red ability, and there is no b-117, idiot, it was an f-117, and that was a lucky shot in the dark, not infa-red, anyway, we rocked the balkans with our air superiority, no question about it, and american fighters have beaten mig fighters throughout history
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 23:27
please, the f-22 raptor is the best fighter aircraft in existence, bar none. The US has always had the best air-power, bar none, the gripen and typhoon cant even compete
Engine power:1200hp.
Main gun:120mm smoothbore.
Fuel tank:1,400litres of fuel.
Also the Mk3 has LWS-2 laser warning system against anti tank missles.The turret and hull are fitted with modular armour system,which can be changed on the field and also brick additional amour and good against the newest anti-tank missles.Mk3 has hunter/killer capacity. But 80% of the time the tank that fires first , comes out the winner.
(Edited by SU37 at 7:48 pm on May 8, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
8th May 2002, 23:52
abhrams: 1500 hp gas turbine, 120mm smooth bore, hydrokinetic transmission, thermal imaging systerm, day/night optics, digital ballistics fire control array, 275 mile range
If the Merkava3 fires first it at 1000m,M1A2 has 10 seconds to return fire.Isreali loader can load a round into the main gun in about 4 to 5 or 6 seconds.
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:52 pm on May 8, 2002
abhrams: 1500 hp gas turbine, 120mm smooth bore, hydrokinetic transmission, thermal imaging systerm, day/night optics, digital ballistics fire control array, 275 mile range
The eginee in a M1A2 was changed to a lowerhp speed. The M1A2 can go about 80 or 85kph.Mk3 can go about 55kph.
(Edited by SU37 at 8:06 pm on May 8, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:04
Thats true, but the optics and range finder on the abhrams dictate that the abrhams will get 1st shot, what is the range of a statndard Merk round???
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:09
abhrams has ERM (extended range munition) that can provive lethality from 8 km, standard HEAT roung I think is 3 km
CI why do you say gripen cannot compete..?
Saab JAS-39A
wights: 6622kg
Max speed: over mach 2
Powerplant: one general electric Volvo Flygmotor RM12 turbofan
Armament: one 27mm BK27 cannon; seven hardpoints; RB74 (sidewinder), AIM-120
AAMRAM AAMīs; RB75 (Maverick), RB15f ASMīs; munitions dispensers;bombs; rockets
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:04 am on May 9, 2002
Thats true, but the optics and range finder on the abhrams dictate that the abrhams will get 1st shot, what is the range of a statndard Merk round???
Merk's don't have there own round. They have a smoothbore 120mm main gun and can fire most all the same rounds that a M1A2 can fire.Merk3's usally carry TPCSDS-T rounds that have a max of 8000 miles.
(Edited by SU37 at 8:23 pm on May 8, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:21
I was just being faciscious, actually I'm pretty impressed with the gripen and Typhoon,. I'm just not a huge delta wing fan, good for attack platforms, but hindering in air to air combat I think the F-22, F-14, and f-18 are still the best warplanes available
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:29
don't forget f-16's and f-15's flown by the iraeli airforce have and extremely dominant success rate against adversaries flying migs, and the only time american fighters engaged migs after vietnam it was f-14's against syrian migs, f-14's shot down 4 of them without losing 1 tomcat
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:29 am on May 9, 2002
don't forget f-16's and f-15's flown by the iraeli airforce have and extremely dominant success rate against adversaries flying migs, and the only time american fighters engaged migs after vietnam it was f-14's against syrian migs, f-14's shot down 4 of them without losing 1 tomcat
Syrian pilots aren't trainned as good as Russian
pilots plus the Mig's that were sold to them were
lowered in tech ,and not as good as the Russian Mig's.Russian makes the Mig's that they sell less powerful and not as good so they will not be as good as the Russian ones.So the F-14's were fighting a lower and not as powerful version of the Mig not the Best version of it like the Russsians have.Thats why the F-22 it was getting high kills.
(Edited by SU37 at 8:46 pm on May 8, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:46
That makes sense, but even F-16's, which are relatively cheap and lo-tech, are effective against migs with the israeli air force. If we had gone into a conventional war with the soviets, The USA would have dominated the skies and seas
If it came to that point the Soviet Union would have just lunch a nuclear strike against America and end it all right there.
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 00:58
In that case we would have launched a nuclear strike too, i'm just talking about a conventional war
Ak-74 is a good weapon and works in all weather and never jams and most parts in it can be broken and it will still work perfect.Also never needs cleaning.SAMS shooting down a F-117 in serbia was no a lucky shot ,Infar-red radar did pick it up on a scan and by scanning it helped SAM operators pin point the aircraft.
(Edited by SU37 at 9:16 pm on May 8, 2002)
Ernest Everhard
9th May 2002, 01:16
when did a sam ever shoot down an f-117 in siberia?
LeonardoDaVinci
9th May 2002, 01:22
Dear IC, as an aerospace engineer who knows his shit, I can assure you that in terms of performance and agility, russian aircraft are second to non. However, I will concede that american aircraft are superior in terms of electronics and stealth design. Nevertheless, it is more than expected considering the amount of funding that goes into these projects. Ask any (non-american engineer) and they will tell you that if the Russians had half the funds of the american fighter projects they would've designed a much faster, agile and technologically superior aircraft. However, they could not endlessly pour money into these projects as they had many other social projects to pursue such as education and health (to ensure that nobody had to worry about not receiving decent a education or healthcare because they are poor). That is why you will find that the Russians had an endless supply of talented scientists and engineers whom are renowned worldwide for their expertise. Also, let us not forget that until WWII Germany was the most superior aviation power in the globe (the Messerschmit 262 being the world's 1st operational jet fighter). However, after the war America had to steal most of the Germans technology and scientists in order to catch up.
Also in the field of astronautics and space engineering you will find that the russians have the upper hand. Fist Satellite in orbit, first man in space, first woman...etc. At the end, the only thing that hindered their progress was the lack of funding. So please do not go on about this bullshit and how americans are technologically superior than everyone else, because simply THEY ARE NOT.
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 01:28
ak-47 is a good weapon, but m-16 has most problems worked out, can fire more rounds per minute at higher velocity than ak47, and rounds are smaller so soldier can carry more clips, I thought f-117 was shot down at night and was pure luck, i'll have to research
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 01:44
Pure conjecture, leonardo, and if you are such a hot stuff engineer, then tell me what the difference is as to who is in space 1st, I can say that we were first on the moon, first to have a re-usable space vehicle, and we lead the space-station program, all of which are of more substance than just putting someone in orbit, and don't give me "woulda, shoulda, coulda hypotheses to make excuses for the soviets falling behind the US, I doubt whether you are actually an engineer or just some liberal commie geek making excuses for the loser of the cold war.
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 01:54
Besides, do you think the us is without its budget limitations? The russians certainly coulld aford to build 3 times the hardware we had, but they couldn't spend that money on tech??? BS! They chose to go with big #'s, not ability, the "budget"m excuse is weak as heck!!! LOL
Astrofro2001
9th May 2002, 01:57
The differance in my opinion of American Vs. Soviet aircraft didn't lye in what they were good in, rather what they were used for. The MIG was definitly a superior airplane when considering dogfights, but American aircrafts were more well rounded having the speed capability, the manuverability, and the amount of payload carried by the aircraft. The advancment in stealth was mainly because American planes were developed for bombing and air to ground warfare. If you research some of the future designs for US military airfcraft you will realize that they focus on speed and payload, mainly the ability to get in get out safely. Leonardo you say that the only reason that the US beat out everyone in the armsrace is because they didnt have money, well maybe this points out that Communism doesn't allow quick advancments. Communism was made to work over a long period of time.
AND by the way, the US is the MOST technologically advanced country in the world bar none. Please name a current country that is ahead in any areas of importance(please no Sony TVs and shit like that)
The F-117 was downed over serbia. heres images to prove it.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117-nn1.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117-nn2.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117-nn3.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117-nn4.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117-nn5.jpg
(Edited by SU37 at 10:01 pm on May 8, 2002)
Smoking Frog II
9th May 2002, 13:38
DOWN WITH THE CIA
No secret police
LeonardoDaVinci
9th May 2002, 13:49
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:44 am on May 9, 2002
I doubt whether you are actually an engineer or just some liberal commie geek making excuses for the loser of the cold war.
Dear IC,
POINT 1- I could always send you copies of my BEng and MSc dissertations, but I doubt that an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself who spends half of his time in front of a computer calling others names has the time to to read them.
POINT 2- I ain't no communist. You obviously belong to that ignorant section of the US population which thinks that everyone who disagrees with their 'HOLY' ideology is a commie.
POINT 3- Like I said, most of my lecturers when I was at university "other commies" and my current colleagues truly believe that russian and in fact most east european engineers are more knowledgable than their american counterparts. Not because the russians are intellectually superior or anything of the kind. But simply due to their advanced educational system.
POINT 4- Don't expect me to send you a reply every time you act like a child and send me a post to prove me wrong. Maybe you don't have a life or anything better to do with your precious time, but don't expect others to be the same.
LdV
Where do you work Iīm impressed, aerospace engineer,
do you work for some military or..?
I am planning to be a military air-force pilot...
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 16:24
LDV, it just seems that if you were uch a great engineer you would recognize that the USA is the most technologically advance country, and if russian and eastern european countries have such great educational systems, then why are all of the greatest inventions and innovations of modern times coming from the west? Don't talk theory to me, professor, talk facts.
CI, are you a moron?
He just said that if the russians had the fundings they WOULD be far more advanced!
That is a FACT!
ps
We have better educational systems than you do :)
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 16:47
Angry, you are a moron and you are making excuses. That the same attitude that made you lose the cold war. The west has funding problems too, we have to budget for education and welfare just like you do, your sorry as communist system is a proven failure, don't make excuses. The truth is in the facts. Even when the soviet union was strong it contributed very little to the world in inventions or innovations. You don't know what you're talking about. That is why the USA beat the Soviets, you just make excuses for why your not as good as us, look at the facts, dont just talk
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 16:48
Who invented that computer you're using? Who invented the internet?? THE U.S.A.!!! So who has the educated people now?
Ernest Everhard
9th May 2002, 19:08
The ability for capital investments and labor to provide the "funding" is also a function of a society's development. In this respect the US was also more advanced.
So..you are a native amerikkan??
hmm...I aint going to argue with you about who has the better education system īcause I know we have a better one :)
and you do know the amerikkan nation are all immigrants, :) from europe :)
We have more interesting history than you we have more diffrent culture :)
we are just simply more interesting than you...:)
and I was giving you a fact, RUSSIA WOULD BE FAR MORE ADVANCED IN TECHNOLOGY IF THEY HAD THE FUNDINGS, + THAT I AM FROM ICELAND YOU FUCKING MORON! :)
you know you are just dumb I have heard some of you "celebrities" (or however you write it) thought they could drive to iceland. LOL know ho has the better education system if you are going to say some stupid facts like that...:)
so I ask you to shut up :)
ps
the smileys are just to let you know I am laughing at you
:)
Ernest Everhard
9th May 2002, 20:12
That was cute, especially the smileys...
concerned
9th May 2002, 20:23
hey angry, what's the matter can't answer a question?
I think you are the one giving up the "stupid facts".
And you are also SO conceited, "we are just simply more interesting than you"...pityful. Yeah I am sure a boring frozen island like Iceland is in fact very interesting.
Anyway what made me laugh the most was:
"RUSSIA WOULD BE FAR MORE ADVANCED IN TECHNOLOGY IF THEY HAD THE FUNDINGS",
sure, and WHY don't they have the fundings? Where did the US got their fundings? Precisely it was the capitalist system that allowed the US to get the fundings for the technological innovation.
What you are saying is that Russia would be rich, if only they could have the money....mmm interesting... I would be a rock star, if only I could play music....
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 20:27
The true moron is you, because you don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion, your claim that russia "would be better with funding" is pure conjecture. Apparently the Icelandic educatiuon system is among the worst, because you don't even know the definition of a "fact". No wonder iceland has never contributed aything to the world. Oh, and our histoiry may be short, but in our 200 years we have given more to the world than Iceland ever has, Iceland, ha ha ha, what a useless country of idiots
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 20:31
Oh, by the way, don't forget to thank the USA for that computer and the internet, we invented both of them
Ernest Everhard
9th May 2002, 20:49
are you knocking bjork?
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 20:51
LOL, ERNEST
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:28 am on May 9, 2002
ak-47 is a good weapon, but m-16 has most problems worked out, can fire more rounds per minute at higher velocity than ak47, and rounds are smaller so soldier can carry more clips, I thought f-117 was shot down at night and was pure luck, i'll have to research
I said Ak-74 not Ak-47,can you read IC?.AK-74 still is a way better weapon.M16A2 needs to be cleaned every day or it will jam,M16A2 is more of a street fighter weapon.In jungles and deserts are not really M16A2 friendly.The weapon will still work but it will need cleaning most of the time.M16A2 is a long rang assault rifle.I wound but my money on a AK-74 anyday. AK-74s never jam or need cleaning and work prefect in all battle fields.The Ak-74 is an improved verson of the Ak-47.
Kalashnivkov 1974 assualt rifle
http://www.kalashnikov.guns.ru/images/99.jpg
(Edited by SU37 at 4:53 pm on May 9, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
9th May 2002, 20:59
yes, the AK series is a a good group of rifles, you have me there, but our air force and navy are far superior to eastern counterparts
angry
10th May 2002, 00:02
CI hello again I see you are know making fun of me for being Icelandic :) acctually I have never said that I was proud of being icelandic
hmm...what have we invented..? we have invented all kinds of stuff for the fish industry :) (wich btw is important in ase you didnīt know :)) and what remarkable things have we done..? hmm we have never ever declared war on any nation or anything like that :)
And I ask you not to talk about iceland if you donīt know anything about it (wich you donīt) I asked ou that question about your history because I wanted to know if you knew that you were european :) like you all are..
ps
Ernest, Björk worked for my father once :) not that I am proud of it or anything (because I donīt like her music that much but she has done some great things for Iceland...:)
angry
10th May 2002, 00:07
SU37, hello there :) Iīve seen you know a lot about weapons and stuff are you a soldier..?
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 00:10
i know about commercial fishing, i fished in kodiak, alaska several summers
angry
10th May 2002, 00:15
lol, :), ok, that is not what I was talking about I was talking about fishing on big ships who fish like you know cod that is what you call it right..:)
well I see we have at least one thing incommon, fishing that is..:)
Quote: from angry on 12:07 am on May 10, 2002
SU37, hello there :) Iīve seen you know a lot about weapons and stuff are you a soldier..?
Nope,I no soldier.I just like and know alot about weapons.
man in the red suit
10th May 2002, 00:33
CI,
leave the icelanders alone for Christ's sake they're not idiots. Your from America yet I don't acuse you of being an idiot. Have some respect for other people and their ideals. You are simply disgracing your capitalist people and proving that you are not an intellectual person. :(
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 00:39
lol, I guess so, when I say commercial fishing i mean large boats, like trawlers, for crab and salmon, not really big ships, but they are, like, 50-100 ft long (sorry, we don't use the metric system, lol) but it is large-scale business fishing
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 00:40
man in red suit, i was merely responding to his personal attacks at me, besides, this is all just fun
angry
10th May 2002, 00:50
yeah you may say that it is all just fun :)
but mostly I mean what I say when I post here at this page..:)
but then again we Icelanders are rather radical f.ex.
a guy who has a tv show here threw a molotov cocktail into the amerikkan embassy in reykjavík (the capital city for those who donīt know) :)
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:40 am on May 10, 2002
besides, this is all just fun
"Besides,this is all just fun!"-Capitalist Imperial
http://anton768.freeservers.com/tank.jpg
(Edited by SU37 at 8:58 pm on May 9, 2002)
man in the red suit
10th May 2002, 00:53
oh! I apologize CI. I did not know that u were attacked first. It was ignorant of me to come to such harsh conclusions. I did not mean to take this so seriously either.
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 01:17
SU37, LOL, LOL, LOL, that is great!!! LOL LOL, you're actually pretty cool!!!
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 01:21
I watch "worlds strongest man" competition on ESPN (american sports channel) they have some gigantic dudes from iceland, they are always competing in the strong-man competitions! They are huge!!! They can lift up whole cars and hold them up!!!
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:21 am on May 10, 2002
I watch "worlds strongest man" competition on ESPN (american sports channel) they have some gigantic dudes from iceland, they are always competing in the strong-man competitions! They are huge!!! They can lift up whole cars and hold them up!!!How gay
angry
10th May 2002, 15:00
LOL SU37 :)
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 17:32
You guys are stupid, as usual you are jealous of Americas strength and America's supreme military power, oh, and su37m the f-14 can fire on 6 targets all at once,and the phoenix air-to-air missle flies at mach 5+, the fastest missle ever!!! the su-37 won't have a chance to dogfight, the f-14 will have killed it from long range
angry
10th May 2002, 18:23
WOW, lol we jealous of america?? LOL that is the most rediculus statement ever! but it is your opinion and you are allowed to have an opinion (unfortunatly) :)
We are NOT jealous, no way. I would shoot myself before moving to the states, (noting personal btw).
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 18:28
angry where are u from?
angry
10th May 2002, 19:43
Are you braindead, nothing personal, or just destracted or something..?
Iīve told you a million times I am from Iceland..
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 19:45
oh, yeah, thats right, your that guy from the country that doesn't matter
angry
10th May 2002, 19:46
And btw, if you are gonna make fun of me for that, I would much more prefer to live here than in the states..:)
angry
10th May 2002, 19:49
Doesnīt matter..?
:) good :) because then I donīt have to be afraid like you all are about terrorism..(wich I donīt like btw so I wonīt be misunderstood)
And if we donīt matter why do you have a military base here??????
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 19:55
I'm just kidding, but you know our countries are allies, and we protect you. Besides, Americans are not afraid of terrorism, united we stand!! we will fight for freedom as we always have, and we will stand in the face of terrorism, and we will be victorious as usual!!!
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 19:57
By the way have you ever been to the USA???
angry
10th May 2002, 20:00
LOL! that is what I am talking about..:) you are all the same :) protect us from what..? you know we donīt want you here..?
united we stand!! we will fight for freedom as we always have, and we will stand in the face of terrorism, and we will be victorious as usual!!!
"victorious as usual" as usual..?
there is nothing "as usual" what are you talkning about..? oh yeah you think you won vietnam :) and all the other usless wars you have been trough!
angry
10th May 2002, 20:03
No, Iīve seen american films..and pictures from my friends trips to america and my fathers..that is enough for me :) + it costs awful lot!
You are not afraid of terrorism? what about all you so called "celebrities" they donīt even dare to go on plane anymore..:)
angry
10th May 2002, 20:08
btw, first we are both on-line why donīt you come to irc some dalnet server and #MarxChat :) okey? I will be there :)
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 20:15
our celebrities go on planes, thats just media hype saying they don't, we are strong people, and vietnam was a mistake, I admit that, but you can't use vitnam against us when we've won every other war we've been in, vietnam was a mistake, but in terms of body-count we were very effective, our government just would not let us go into the north. If we did, we could have decimated them. we chose to leave. By the way, don't you think it would only be fair for you to visit the USA before judging it? also, you may want us gone, but we contribute a lot to your economy, and you never know when china may make a move against europe, then you'll be glad we are there for you
angry
10th May 2002, 20:20
Why I like China!
well visit, hmm..nah I am not so sure I think there will be monsters eating me or some nah just kidding..:)
but it is not quite true that you do much for our economy..! there are only like one hundred persons who work for you here..or less..so..nahh I donīt think so..:) what about operation "desert storm"???
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 20:25
Desert storm was a tremendous victory, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world at the time, and we destroyed their forces, now, keep in mind it was never an objective to take out saddam hussein, that would have made iraq even more unstable, but in terms of destroying iraq's forces and liberating kuwait (which were our objectives), we were very successful, all of nato agrees on that!!!
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 20:47
cant chat, i'm at work and my workstation is not enabled for real-time chat
angry
10th May 2002, 21:09
Hmm where you so successfull in liberating Kuwait..?
what do you do for a living..?
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 21:14
I think we were very succesful, saddam is totally out of kuwait, and they are freely trading oil again. By the way, we are going back into iraq soon to take out saddam and destroy the weapons he has rebuilt as part of the war on terror, whatch for those events later in the year. I live/work in california for Ford Motor Company. I am a financial analyst, with interests in history, aviation, and military
angry
10th May 2002, 21:19
Yeah I heard you were going back in and I donīt think that is such a good idea, for the man is insane and he has nuclear weapons...so..
btw do you think your president is such a smart man that he can control this operation..?
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:32 pm on May 10, 2002
You guys are stupid, as usual you are jealous of Americas strength and America's supreme military power, oh, and su37m the f-14 can fire on 6 targets all at once,and the phoenix air-to-air missle flies at mach 5+, the fastest missle ever!!! the su-37 won't have a chance to dogfight, the f-14 will have killed it from long range
The only aircraft that can fire at 6 targets at once at long ranges is the F-22,not the F-14.You really are an idiot. Also strong- men contests are gay and shows how gay Capitalism is.
(Edited by SU37 at 5:25 pm on May 10, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 21:32
Well, i don't thik saddam had nukes yet, but he is trying to get them, that is why we need to stop him before he actualy has them. Also, I think out president is smart enough to let the pentagon our military headquarters) handle military affairs, let the military make most of the decisions. That was one of the biggest problems in vietnam, our congress (mostly democrats, of course) was trying to run the war from Washington, instead of leting our genrals do what had to be done. We learned from this, though, and I think Bush will let the pentagon run the war, thats what worked in desert storm, and I'm confident it wll work again
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 21:35
su37 you are the idiot because the f-14 can fire on 6 targets at once, go to any f-14 website to confirm if you think i'm wrong, and you'll see, where are u from, anyway?
angry
10th May 2002, 21:38
I think he has them or at least biocemical weapons..
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 21:43
yes, he definately has biological and chemical weapons, it is possible he has nukes, but not likely at this point, I hope our intelligence would find out if he did, either way, he's going down later this year
IC,your talking from your ass again.The F-14 can engage the six at once put not at long ranges the F-22 is the only fighter that can do that.Your mixing aircraft together and posting lies in this topic to make your self look smart.Also your grammar stinks,what are you a 12 year old?.Russian made a match for the F-14 years ago,Mig-29.Russian fighters are for all-out preformce.
MIG-29
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-29-01p03.jpg
(Edited by SU37 at 6:14 pm on May 10, 2002)
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 22:25
The mig-29 sucks, the f-14 can engage six at long range, I don't know where you are from, but your grammar is the one that sucks, i don't know where you get your logic, but russian aircraft have enough problems staying in the air let alone beating out american fighters, please argue with facts bnot just profanity and personal attacks, it just makes you look dumber
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:25 pm on May 10, 2002
The mig-29 sucks, the f-14 can engage six at long range, I don't know where you are from, but your grammar is the one that sucks, i don't know where you get your logic, but russian aircraft have enough problems staying in the air let alone beating out american fighters, please argue with facts bnot just profanity and personal attacks, it just makes you look dumberThe Mig-29 doesn't have the best system but it can engage F-18's with no problems.You need to go back to school, boy.Your spelling and grammar really do need improment.
There is somthing called Red october ,where East German Mig-29 pilots go against American F-18 pilots in war games,and Mig-29s have gotten on F-18's.Mig-29's are up-dated to fit Russian Air-Defense standards.
angry
10th May 2002, 22:43
I still think gripen is the best..:) yo must admit the plane is beutifully designed and has all the equipment that the fīs have and Migs :) no offence :)
but I think saddam is not afraid to use the biological weapons he has..
angry
10th May 2002, 23:02
Iīve been looking trough gripens info, and with no doubt I can say that it is the best fighter aircraft in the world, it has everything, it will be updated when something new comes along + that there are many countries showing interests in it.
It is the first 21. century fighter aircraft made yet.
it is technologically far more advanced than any other plane exizting! :) I am going to fly that thing one day! :)
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 23:02
I agree that saddam is not afraid to use those weapons, he is crazy, but we have the equipment and weapons to protect ourselves and neutralize his weapons. I like the gripen and eurofighter typhoon, but delta wing design is weak in a dogfight, very good for payload in the surface attack role, though. And su-37, I agree the f-18 may have trouble against mig 29, f-18 is really primarily a strike fighter air-to air combatant is secondary, but the f-14 was designed exclusively for fleet defense and long-range air interception, and 6 out of 7 times it wil beat the mig -29. Also, the russian navy carriers cant even launch very heavily-loaded planes, their carriers aren't big enough and their catapults aren't as good as a US carrier's, so Russian carriers doon't even have very good strike capability from a carrier, they can mostly just launch fighters for air-to air fleet defense. American carriers are large enough to launch heavy-payload attack planes to strike surface targets, and that is a huge advantage. You can check the stats and see, russian carriers cant project their power inland for heavy ground strikes like US carriers. They cant launch attack planes with heavy payloads and external fuel tanks.
Capitalist Imperial
10th May 2002, 23:07
Oh, angry, the typhoon and gripen are advanced, but by far the most advanced fighter today id the f-22 raptor. It has stealth ability, it is a good dogfighter and attack plane, and it is the only plane that can fly supersonic without afterburners. It is the best fighter plane that exists tody, bar none. Even european military commanders have to admit this.
angry
11th May 2002, 01:54
Well, I donīt agree check out gripenīs homepaage www.gripen.com it has every information you need to convince yourself that it is the best plane..:)
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:07 pm on May 10, 2002
Oh, angry, the typhoon and gripen are advanced, but by far the most advanced fighter today id the f-22 raptor. It has stealth ability, it is a good dogfighter and attack plane, and it is the only plane that can fly supersonic without afterburners. It is the best fighter plane that exists tody, bar none. Even european military commanders have to admit this.
F-22 is not a dogfighter,its a missle platform.Russian aircraft are bulid for dogfighting and SU-37,MIG-29,and SU-27 flankers are the main dogfigthers of the sky.F-22's are good for taking out bombers and figthing from long ranges,but a F-22 in combat with a SU-37 or SU-27 in close range combat ,SU-37 or SU-27 would be the winner.The hole point of the F-22 is "you can't see me".
(Edited by SU37 at 10:54 pm on May 10, 2002)
Guest
12th May 2002, 02:39
Hey, its CI in a diferent comp, angry, i will research the gripen and typhoon more, but you much go and reseach the F-22 raptor, and then we'll talk more, and then you'll agree that the F-22 is the worlds most advanced, state of the art warplane SU37, I know that the su-37 is probably the worlds best dogfighter, but what i'm saying is that 21st century air combat will rarely be dogfighting, especially against american planes. But the f-22 can still dogfight against most planes, and we are currently developing a supreme dogfighter with forward swept wings and front canards, so watch for that in the future
angry
12th May 2002, 16:59
Where can I get information about the F-22 Raptor..?
though I am convinced your prespectives on the gripen are gonna change to the better..:)
Guest
13th May 2002, 05:54
Good Lord, people once you progress past the age of 17 you'll realize that you'll have to choose between putting up with corporate crap, or being homeless. I choose the former. Oh, and give the political propaganda crap a rest. You're just as bad as the corporate types when it comes to trying to "justify" what you "stand for." You disguise your real purpose behind a wall of ambiguous politician speak and philosophical mumbo jumbo because you think you'll sound more convincing that way. Admit it, guys, you yourselves can't put your ideas into clear, concise wordings because you know you'll end up contradicting yourselves.
Guest
13th May 2002, 06:16
I agree, most of you kids seem pretty uninformed. I choose not to rumage through all these posts, but i felt i should say that there has never trully been a true communistic regime, it is all tolitarian socialism. communism is a geat ideal, but as we know it so far never a great practice. politians are jhevoa's wittnesses. stop bosting about something you have never experienced. live for the future, forget about being "communist" just fight for equality. Saying you are communist is just as limiting and ill willed as saying you are capitalist. fight for yourself. a better world is possible and when it is accomplised <that is if our earth is still perserved> it will be under a just socialist rule.
damn the human condition
yes i am sure i sounded like some prophetic cappy or whatever the clever termenology is.
pardon the misspellings it is late
angry
13th May 2002, 16:58
who are you..? and why did you post here?
and if you would have given yourself time to read this, you would have known that most of us have jobs, not just kids around here..
even if you donīt belive in the communist system (wich I admit hasnīt worked so well, so far) then why do you come here and try to change our belives? wich are just social...? we have all (I think) realised that we have to put up with the system as it is nowadays, but we can boycott some companies, you just sound like you have given up all hope in humanty, sad...
"You're just as bad as the corporate types when it comes to trying to "justify" what you "stand for."
tell my how?
this is sad...
Quote: from Guest on 2:39 am on May 12, 2002
Hey, its CI in a diferent comp, angry, i will research the gripen and typhoon more, but you much go and reseach the F-22 raptor, and then we'll talk more, and then you'll agree that the F-22 is the worlds most advanced, state of the art warplane SU37, I know that the su-37 is probably the worlds best dogfighter, but what i'm saying is that 21st century air combat will rarely be dogfighting, especially against american planes. But the f-22 can still dogfight against most planes, and we are currently developing a supreme dogfighter with forward swept wings and front canards, so watch for that in the future
Russia is making an aircraft that is stealth and has dogfighting as good as the Su-37, Its the MIG1.42MFI and nicknamed"Raptor killer" Its basicly a stealth aircraft like the F-22, but way better.The MIG1.42MFI is a fighter dog fighter like the Su-37 but it going to be stealth.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/i42-1.jpg
Capitalist Imperial
13th May 2002, 22:21
Was that a picture of the new mig? it didn't look stealth, besides, there will be no "raptor killer", the f-22 rules all, thr russians can't keep up with american technology
Moskitto
13th May 2002, 23:26
it didn't look stealth
Stealth technology doesn't work, The only thing stealth does is when picked up by primitive radar systems it reduces the size of the size of the stealth aircraft to give the same reflection as a golf ball. Yeah, I'd like to see a golfball flying at bombing altitude.
If you've got a radar with a separate reciever points (like the Chinese have) the plane can be picked up. Also the British have a cruise missile system which can detect them and recent evidence shows that Iraqis could see the stealth bombers but they just couldn't get the information to their SAM quickly enough.
Capitalist Imperial
13th May 2002, 23:51
a lot of evidence stealth doesn't work, but in real-world application it worked in iraq and in bosnia, where soviet hardware was ineffective against it
Capitalist Imperial
13th May 2002, 23:52
guess what else doesn't work in 21st century air combat? dogfighting
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 6:21 pm on May 13, 2002
Was that a picture of the new mig? it didn't look stealth, besides, there will be no "raptor killer", the f-22 rules all, thr russians can't keep up with american technology
How could you sit there and mock the aircraft when you know notting about it.Your going by what your fucking CNN told ya or MSNBC.Theres an old saying IC"things don't appear what they sem to be".All I hear from you IC is "Russia sucks,america rules blah blah blah fuck you blah blah blah",You don't have a clue about notthing but think you do.
(Edited by SU37 at 9:29 pm on May 13, 2002)
man in the red suit
14th May 2002, 01:33
christ u guys turned this into a fucking airplane war.
Fuck technology. Tvs are awesome and the telephone is ok too. fuck everything else. Even computers!! the internet helps me deal with the fact that I live here.
Oh *****.. *****.. *****.. *****.
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 17:21
lol, su37, look, i know that russian aircraft and equipment is very capable, and i don't get my military info from american news channels, they are left-wing too, i just think in proxy wars between th us and the soviets (vietnam, iraq, and bosnia (which wasn't really a proxy war but it was us vs ex-soviet hardware)), us weaponry seems to have had the edge. it would have been interesting to see what a full scale conventional confrontation (no nukes) between the us and the USSR would have yielded, buy I understand that Soviet/russian weapons are very capable and effective, i just like american weapons because i am a patriot, are you from russian heritage, did you immigrate, or were you born here, su37???
american news channels are left-wing... ....... REALLY??????? they werent when i watched TV, but maybe they always switched only for me, when i happened to turn on the news...
;)
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 19:18
Fabi, are you from US?? if you watch news over time, you see its left wing slant, but thats just my opinion
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:21 pm on May 14, 2002
lol, su37, look, i know that russian aircraft and equipment is very capable, and i don't get my military info from american news channels, they are left-wing too, i just think in proxy wars between th us and the soviets (vietnam, iraq, and bosnia (which wasn't really a proxy war but it was us vs ex-soviet hardware)), us weaponry seems to have had the edge. it would have been interesting to see what a full scale conventional confrontation (no nukes) between the us and the USSR would have yielded, buy I understand that Soviet/russian weapons are very capable and effective, i just like american weapons because i am a patriot, are you from russian heritage, did you immigrate, or were you born here, su37???
Sorry I couldn't responde so fast,I do have a job from 6am to 2pm.Im have no russian in me,just irish.I just like Russian weapons and other miltary forces.
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 20:55
do you like U.S. weapons?
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:55 pm on May 14, 2002
do you like U.S. weapons?Some, like the M-60 and LAW rocket.
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 21:02
yeah, the m-60 will brint it too you, great for cover fire and suppression, i like the law, also, do you prefer the law or rpg??
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 9:02 pm on May 14, 2002
yeah, the m-60 will brint it too you, great for cover fire and suppression, i like the law, also, do you prefer the law or rpg??RPG's don't have good aim but LAWs do,LAWs are laser guided.I like RPG's but I will take LAWs anyday.
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 21:14
TOW is pretty good, not as mobile, but versatile where it can be mounted
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 21:17
Is russia still making the Hacoc attack helicopter? That looks pretty cool, but I don't know if it can compete with the new US Comanche stealth chopper
I remeber you saying American tech is better then Russian/Soviet tech and has been.The U-2 was shot down over Cuba in 1962 ,when two Soviet SA-1 SAMs were shot up,the U-2 doged the first one but the second one was a direct hit.Russia has the best SAM systems.
A U-2 was downed by a SAM in may,1960 over the USSR.The pilot was francis gaypowers.
Soviet SA-1 Surface To Air Missile
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/ru_lavochkin_missile_sa-1_02.jpg
(Edited by SU37 at 4:35 pm on May 14, 2002)
im not american but i have spent quite some time there.... and enough to know about american news.... at least to know a litte bit about it...
maybe the news are not entirely conservative or right-winged... but i dont think they come that 'leftist'-flavored.....
Capitalist Imperial
14th May 2002, 22:26
yeah, I know the russian ground to air defenses are very good, but the u-2 can't manuever for anything, so I would expect it to get hit if there is a lock on it, american sams have not really been tested, so we can't say how good they are, but didn't some west german pilot fly a Cessna right over the russian air defenses and land in red square back in the 80's? how did that happen?
(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:27 pm on May 14, 2002)
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