Anti-Police Brutality Demo, Montreal

[RNK]

So today marked the 10th annual Demonstration Against Police Brutality. It started about an hour after the end of the anti-war demo the same day, and was a stark contrast to the hippy love-fest of social democrats and neoliberals.

About a thousand people showed up for both (each). Whereas the anti-war demo involved long, drilling speaches, the anti-police protest was short and sweet. Someone on loudspeaker said that there were medics throughout the demonstration, and gave a phone number where a lawyer could be reached. And then they wished everyone good luck, and it was off.

For the first hour or so the group marched through the streets, going this way and that way, lots of snowballs thrown at anything resembling capitalism, authority or wealth -- generally, non-violent.

Until, of course, about an hour into the march, several shortbuses filled with riot cops screamed their way to an intersection ahead of the protest, sparking the first of many confrontations that would occur throughout the day. The protesters escaped unharmed, making a u-turn down another street and heading back into the downtown core.

As the police pressure increased, so did the violence. Storefronts belonging to several high-end companies were smashed (but not, of course, the local army surplus stores, where most in the ground likely got half of the stuff they were wearing) and at one point a car was torched along the way.

At this point I got the fuck out. Didn't want to be arrested today (but almost did anyway). Just as soon as I went off to the sidelines to watch with the cameramen and reporters and passers-by the police launched their first successful attempt to force a split in the group, cordoning off a small group that had to turn back the other way. The next three hours I hung around the same intersection as the riot came, left, came back, left in another direction, then suddenly, when I thought it was gone, came back yet again. Each time the same thing happened; the police would charge, causing an instantaneous panic (I heard someone remark that the protesters were scattering easier than pigeons), they'd cut off a bunch of people from the main group, and disperse them. On one occasion this resulting in about 50 people cornered along the wall of a store, surrounding by a ring of an equal number of riot police, where they were processed over the course of three hours (when I left they were still there).

I enjoyed being able to sit this one out and watch from the sidelines; it let me observe things I may not have observed otherwise. I saw several people -- and heard from more -- get jabs to the ribs, or smacked in the arm, back, or head, simply for being within arm's reach -- it didn't matter if they were protester, or college student, or middle-aged couple who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bystanders were shoved, punched and manhandled by angry, screaming cops -- protesters got it worse. I watched as one kid got shoved around by a couple of cops, and then, after going back, getting a hard jab in the chest with the blunt end of a baton. The kid got the cop back though by swinging the pole of his black flag across the cop's (helmeted, unfortunately) head with a loud "THWACK" and a roar of laughter from the crowd. And although most of the snowballs were of the soft variety there was still ample amounts of rock-hard chunks of ice lying around that undoubtedly left scores of bruises all over the cops (I saw one take a hit right in the leg with a loud "POP" and watched as he almost fell).

Cops weren't the only ones hit, though. A bystander taking a picture of the police riot line got a bottle in the head, while another guy who stupidly walked infront of the cops while on his cellphone got a chunk of ice right across the nose, totalling his sunglasses and his cellphone and his nose. Throughout the whole thing there were bystanders who were just on their casual daily routine, including families with kids, and after that incident me and a few people around me started warning parents that their kids were in danger -- something the cops hadn't been doing, who were instead letting 5-year-old kids walk around them (afterall, it would be an instant PR win for the cops if a little kid got hit in the head by a chunk of ice or beer bottle).

Overall it was interesting to get an outside perspective. And quite revealing in a lot of ways.

First, the good things. I thought it was a very good example of how a group of activists can avoid the police in an urban environment. With the help of the metro system and the underground city the protest was able to essentially disintigrate and re-form minutes later blocks away, seemingly out of nowhere. This occured several times. I'd be sitting at an intersection with maybe 10 people around, and then 5 minutes later it'd be 100 people, and then suddenly, 100 more would appear down the street and come and join, and all the while you can't help but wonder where the fuck they're coming from -- I imagine the cops felt the same. We gave those riot cops a real good workout -- traffic jams caused by the protests froze a lot of their attempts to re-enforce positions with more riot squads, forcing them to run all over the place in their heavy equipment.

Negitavely, though, I think the protest was also a prime example of how disorganized these kinds of protests are, and how pussy-whipped Canadian protesters are (but don't worry, American protesters are even more pussified). The police succeeded astonishingly in seperating and dividing the protest and scattering bits off here and there until by the end of it the protest was nothing but a scattered array of individuals and small groups over 10 square blocks of downtown. They acted with absolute impunity; every time they charged, half the protesters would run off like children fleeing the firebombing of Cambodia, leaving a handful of lone vigilantes actually putting up a fight and the other 40% kind of just walking away. And this is while being charged by no more than 10 cops, against groups of 100-200.

The protest movement in the Americas needs a serious revolutionizing. The cops were operating in independant squads of 5, for that was really all they needed to do anything, and yet a group of 100 angry anarchists couldn't do squat. It's not their fault, though; some organization needs to take place, and protest organizers need to get on the ball. I'd recommend they visit Korea and Japan to see how it's done. I mean, if ever for some reason 250 Korean protesters were shipped to a Canadian or American city, they'd basically have instant control over the entire city; police here are completely and utterly spoiled in how easy we're defeated on the streets. I'd love to see how they'd be able to match 50 guys with 10-foot-long pikes slowly walking towards them, with another 50 guys behind them getting ready to through molotovs, and I wonder how they'd be able to handle seeing their teams disappear into swarms of grabbing hands and kicking feet.

[AGITprop]

RNK, thanks for this post. I wasn't able to make it to this protest as I had my weekly branch meeting at the same time :( That being said, I have been to previous anti-police brutality protests in Montreal and this one seems to have been quite the spectacle compared to last year's. Unfortunately, that is all it is, a spectacle. I can't wait to hear Trot bashing from the Anarchists after this post but this is where I stand. This protest is nothing more than an excuse for lumpen-proletariat and Anarchists to get an adrenaline rush. I denounce this kind of activism as it is unproductive and it really is giving the cops an excuse to beat on people. I refer to anti-police brutality protests as amusement parks for cops. As much as I hate the police institution, openly intimidating them is accomplishing nothing. I must admit I enjoy watching for pure humor value, but at the end of the day, it is a poor excuse for leftists to claim that they get beaten by the police.

On another note, it was very nice to finally meet you in person RNK.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

For more info on the Montreal M-15 anti-police demo, go to:
http://forums.asse-solidarite.qc.ca/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2736

For more info on the Montreal M-15 anti-war demo, go to:
http://forums.asse-solidarite.qc.ca/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2737

MTL = Storm Center of Canadian Revolution!

[RNK]

This protest is nothing more than an excuse for lumpen-proletariat and Anarchists to get an adrenaline rush.

What it is is nothing less than an expression of the collective anger of the most exploited masses, against the capitalist system and its armed body of social stormtroopers, the police. Like I said, I saw with my own eyes police clubbing everyone within reach, screaming at and shoving old people, and one girl get face-planted into icey cement by three cops who were each twice her size as she screamed in absolute terror. I don't think it's your call to say whether or not people should protest against this shit on the basis of its "productivity". You've got to learn to stop looking at every act on the basis of how many votes it will get your NDP; sometimes things need to happen, and you should be spending less time parroting the denunciation of these revolutionary acts by the bourgeois press and more time trying to expose the truth of the matter to the masses and supporting these people rather than trying to nullify them just like the state does.


MTL = Storm Center of Canadian Revolution!

Got that right!

[RNK]

Here are a few articles about the Anti-Brutality demo from bourgeois media:

CBC.ca: Police, protesters clash at Montreal anti-brutality march (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/03/15/montreal-protest.html)


Officers in full riot gear clashed with the group of 200 protesters. Several marchers launched beer bottles, snowballs and chunks of ice at police, passersby and members of the media.

They don't waste any time in skewing events. The march was far more than 200 people, for one, and secondly, although I mentioned it, the only times people besides police were hit with thrown objects were accidents. The article of course does not mention the dozens of cases of police assaulting innocent bystanders and non-violent protesters.

Canada.com/Montreal Gazette: Clashes at anti-brutality demo (http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=3566b8a8-050f-4b9b-9eaf-5a5c0a6e6f95&p=1)

First is the obvious disconnection; this one says 300 people were there, and 47 arrested (compared to 30 arrested claimed by the CBC).

The Gazette story overall is a little more revealing of the behaviour of the police:


"They're so rough," a woman at St. Urbain St. and Sherbrooke St. said of police as one of them yelled at a man in a wheelchair : "Get out of the way, you're making trouble."

CTV.ca: Police clash with protesters at anti-brutality march (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080315/montreal_police_080315/20080315?hub=Canada)

CTV wastes no time joining the CBC:


Several marchers launched beer bottles, snowballs and chunks of ice at officers, members of the media and passersby.


There's one other incident that I'd forgotten about, that, of course, isn't mentioned.. anywhere.

At one point as the continuing back-and-forth rioting went around a corner and down a street the police set up a blockade along the entire intersection -- after letting cameras from Radio-Canada/CBC, Canoe, and other major media through to follow. An independant camera team with a cameraman/reporter and what I could only describe as sound operator or something tried to follow but were threatened with batons, shoved, and verbally harassed by the police; they protested, "why are you letting Radio-Canada and other big news networks take their cameras but not us?" The Police replied, "who do you work for?" "We are independant, we have a right to the same information" "No, you don't, you're not allowed here"

This is how the police ensure that what occurs is played in the best possible light -- for them. As the CBC and CTV have shown, and even the Gazette, western media is quick to report on the smallest infractions, and bloat and skew reality, when it goes against protesters -- but where there's the possibility of an independant writing a scathing report on police misconduct they are prevented from viewing the scene. And this is why when people like Gunther denounce protesters they are doing nothing but excacerbating this unjust and corrupt system, because rather than confront this hypocrisy and expose the truth, they do what's "easiest", mimic the opinions of the media so as to "play favorites" with people.

[Keyser]

Unfortunately, that is all it is, a spectacle.

And you think demonstrations and other street actions are not?

This action may not win over many people, but that is not the point.

The point of the anti-police brutality march is to show publicly the anger of the most oppressed sections of society and the working class (in other words, those who suffer the most from the police) have against the police and the system that imposes police tyranny on them.

What do you have against the right of oppressed people to show the public their anger and to express their opposition against the police?

Furthermore, unless you actually are doing something to assist in these people, in their struggle with the police and working to stop the police from mistreating and abusing people, what right have you got to merely just condemn these people from afar and say nothing more?

Are people just suppose to sit back and let police brutality go on?


This protest is nothing more than an excuse for lumpen-proletariat and Anarchists to get an adrenaline rush.

Of course it is.:rolleyes:

It could never have had anything to do with the fact that these people took to the streets to show their anger against the police who have abused, hurt, arrested them.

'How dare the victims of the police express themselves against the police' is more or less the line of thought you seem to have.

Nice try with the lumpen-proletariat remark. Of course Trotskyists prefer to work with well to do labour bureaucrats, trade union bosses and social democratic politicians (the NDP in Canada and the Labour Party where I live).

Labour movement bureaucrats, social democrats and those sections of the working class who have been bought out by capitalism to betray their class will never oppose the ruling class, despite the delusions of most Trotskyist groups (the IMT being the very worst offender).

The lumpen-proletariat, as you call them have a revolutionary potential that is far more solid than any class betrayer in the trade union bureaucracy or the social democratic parties and the Trotskyist groups that hang around those types.

Likewise with anarchists, despite some differences I have with anarchists, at least can claim to hold better politics and a better history of organising direct action than any Trotskyist group can ever claim to.


I denounce this kind of activism as it is unproductive

The aim of the march was for activists and those who suffered police brutality to show in public their anger against the police.

They did just that so by their own objective they did what they set out to do.

No one demo or march, nor any amount of paper selling will be productive in terms of starting off a mass upsurge of class struggle or a revolution for the simple reason that the dynamics of class struggle in the industrialised world is in a peroid of reaction and a retreat of the working class from political struggle.

Also denouncing a action, as merely critically analysing it, means you side with the police.


and it really is giving the cops an excuse to beat on people.

What a load of crap.

The police never need an excuse, they do as they please when they can get away with it.

And even if the demonstrators gave an "excuse" for the police to beat them, we should still denounce the police and show solidarity with those who fell victim to their violence.

Any other stance on that is class treason, as it excuses the actions of the police and thus siding with an institution of the state and the class enemy.

The protestors were well within their right to fight back.



I must admit I enjoy watching for pure humor value, but at the end of the day, it is a poor excuse for leftists to claim that they get beaten by the police.


How sick, to see an alleged socialist take pleasure at seeing people getting injured by police thugs.

Then again, reformists and Trotskyists always show their true colours and their alliegence to the rule of capital when events like this happen.

[AGITprop]

What it is is nothing less than an expression of the collective anger of the most exploited masses, against the capitalist system and its armed body of social stormtroopers, the police. Like I said, I saw with my own eyes police clubbing everyone within reach, screaming at and shoving old people, and one girl get face-planted into icey cement by three cops who were each twice her size as she screamed in absolute terror. I don't think it's your call to say whether or not people should protest against this shit on the basis of its "productivity". You've got to learn to stop looking at every act on the basis of how many votes it will get your NDP; sometimes things need to happen, and you should be spending less time parroting the denunciation of these revolutionary acts by the bourgeois press and more time trying to expose the truth of the matter to the masses and supporting these people rather than trying to nullify them just like the state does.

I understand that this is an outburst of expression against the ruling class. This is obvious. What it isn't though is productive. Instead of wasting time getting arrested, we need to organize labour movements. And this has nothing to do with the NDP? You seem to use this argument every time we discuss. Firstly, there is no NDP in Quebec, nor is there even a labour union yet. Secondly, the NDP is useless without revolutionary leadership. You seem to delude yourself with the idea that every Trotskyist in Canada is pro-Jack Layton.I do support these people, but I denounce their action as unproductive. Do I claim that it is there fault? No. Many of them have no ideological basis to work with therefore resort to all sorts of tactics to express themselves. I agree that the police are violent and abuse their power, but confronting them is not a solution right now. The best thing people can do to avoid being beaten, is avoid getting into trouble. This is not a revolution yet, and people who claim that fighting cops now is productive have yet to open their eyes. The time will come for this and we have to see these action as exactly what they are. UNPRODUCTIVE.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

Please stop writing such bullshit. Please.
I don't want to start a fight with you.
But if you continue insulting me and my comrades, I'm not sure I can control myself.

[AGITprop]

Please stop writing such bullshit. Please.
I don't want to start a fight with you.
But if you continue insulting me and my comrades, I'm not sure I can control myself.

Im not insulting anyone. I am clearly stating exactly what is what. If you wish to discuss with me fine, bt threatening me with your outbursts of uncontrollable irrationality is not going to stop me from expressing me opinion.

[AGITprop]

And you think demonstrations and other street actions are not?

This action may not win over many people, but that is not the point.

The point of the anti-police brutality march is to show publicly the anger of the most oppressed sections of society and the working class (in other words, those who suffer the most from the police) have against the police and the system that imposes police tyranny on them.

Then what is the point. To what end is all of this? You are not winning over workers, you are not organizing labour movement, what exactly are you doing. Again, these actions re unproductive. The best way to avoid police brutality right now, is to avoid clashing with the law. This is not revolution yet but but many ultra-lefts such as yourself are always five steps ahead of the movement.



What do you have against the right of oppressed people to show the public their anger and to express their opposition against the police?

Furthermore, unless you actually are doing something to assist in these people, in their struggle with the police and working to stop the police from mistreating and abusing people, what right have you got to merely just condemn these people from afar and say nothing more?

Are people just suppose to sit back and let police brutality go on?

I have nothing against these people. I understand that they are mistreated by police officers, but you cannot blame the police entirely as these people do agitate the police themselves. This demo is a perfect example of that. As I said earlier, the best way to avoid police brutality is to avoid clashing with the police. Right now, under capitalism ,the police are an oppressive force, but under capitalism, we cannot fight them. This is not revolution and there is not a majority of people backing these actions against the police officers, therefore i denounce these actions and call them once again, unproductive. We need to use our energy and frustration to organize workers, not fight the police with a handful of individuals.




Nice try with the lumpen-proletariat remark. Of course Trotskyists prefer to work with well to do labour bureaucrats, trade union bosses and social democratic politicians (the NDP in Canada and the Labour Party where I live).

Labour movement bureaucrats, social democrats and those sections of the working class who have been bought out by capitalism to betray their class will never oppose the ruling class, despite the delusions of most Trotskyist groups (the IMT being the very worst offender).

You're understanding of Trotskyism is a pure reflection of your inability to understand how to organize. We do not care about working with labour union bureaucrats. In you understood entrism, what defines Trotskyism, you'd understand that we aim to eliminate the social democratic leadership of unions and labour parties.



The lumpen-proletariat, as you call them have a revolutionary potential that is far more solid than any class betrayer in the trade union bureaucracy or the social democratic parties and the Trotskyist groups that hang around those types.

Once again. You're inability to understand the importance of working within the labour unions is the reason that socialists like yourself will build nothing more than protests against the police. We go where the masses are. They are in unions and labour parties. By not approaching these, you are disregarding the majority of the workers! We aim to eliminate reformist leadership and win over the workers to Marxist ideas. As for the lumpen-proles. Yes, they do have revolutionary potential. But they are alienated from the workers. We have seen historically that the lumpen will side with whoever offers them the most. Many a time, the fascists will booze-up the lumpen and give them weapons to kill socialists. I concern myself with workers who are the ones exploited.





Also denouncing a action, as merely critically analysing it, means you side with the police. You have just proven the Marxist idea that formal logic is inferior to dialectical materialism. I applaud you. The one-sidedness of your comment is incredible. The fact that i denounce this activity means I side with the police? That is a completely ridiculous, ignorant fallacy. What it means is that I don't believe clashing against the ruling class with force at this time is productive. These people know this yet they fight the police anyway. Why? Either because they have no ideological basis to organize or they are just adrenaline junkies with no prospects and nothing to lose, looking for a good time. Hence the lumpen-proletariat





Any other stance on that is class treason, as it excuses the actions of the police and thus siding with an institution of the state and the class enemy.

The protestors were well within their right to fight back.

Once again for the benefit of your one-sided, logically limited mind, I do not excuse the action of the police. I simply am analyzing it from Marxist perspective and not siding with the state (!?) The protesters have the right to fight back if they wish, but I don't feel sorry for those who go out looking for confrontation with the police as they are not accomplishing anything but increasing their chances of being arrested, and this does nothing for the movement.




How sick, to see an alleged socialist take pleasure at seeing people getting injured by police thugs.

Then again, reformists and Trotskyists always show their true colours and their alliegence to the rule of capital when events like this happen.
I admit that I do find it hilarious that these people can believe they are accomplishing anything by confronting the police. And remember, the people who do stick around to fight police officers are those with nothing to lose, like the street punks. Workers will not put themselves in harm's way to get a chance to hit a cop when they have actual responsibilities to themselves and their families.

As for us showing our true colours. All we are doing is showing our ability to analyze this like Marxists and coming to the conclusion that this sort of action is useless.

[RNK]

I understand that this is an outburst of expression against the ruling class. This is obvious. What it isn't though is productive.

It isn't productive by your shrewd standards. You come from a position of trying to get votes in elections for the NDP or Quebec Solidaire or "organizing a labour movement", and everything to you is a means to that end.

There were labour organizers, unionists and proletarians at the anti-brutality demo. Most people who took part were proletarians, or lumpenproletarians -- people who suffer under class oppression.

Sure, smashing windows won't immediately translate into bigger IMT meetings, or more people coming to HoV video shows. What it does, though, is build at the most basic and most important level the idea of resistence. Real resistence, not electoral resistence, not platformist resistence, but the most physical and most brutal and most direct and raw form of resistence at the aspect of the oppressive state that is covered from head to toe in the blood of all those people who have been repressed and exploited and brutalized at one point or another.

It is sad that uneducated comrades like you are incapable of understanding the supreme importance of the most basic acts of resistence. You seem like you would be more than happy if rallies and demonstrations never took place, if workers filed into your meetings row on row and voted your sorry asses into power. But that isn't resistence. And every revolution needs, at its base, the spirit of resistence. And that my friend is what you lack.


The best way to avoid police brutality right now, is to avoid clashing with the law.

If this isn't the most grevious exposition of the bankruptcy of your "revolutionary" tactics, I don't know what is. What you are essentially asking is for people who are being exploited and oppressed to not fight back. That defeatist attitude is almost sickening.


I have nothing against these people. I understand that they are mistreated by police officers, but you cannot blame the police entirely as these people do agitate the police themselves.

Okay, this is sickening. You're doing nothing but regurgitating the same propaganda as every bourgeoisie in the country. What's even crazier is that you weren't there. You didn't see the police repeatedly attack the demonstration, you didn't see the police punching and hitting protesters, shoving them to the ground, intimidating and assaulting both them and innocent bystanders. You're no better than Nazi collaborateurs who urged people not to fight the Nazis because it was "hopeless".


In you understood entrism, what defines Trotskyism, you'd understand that we aim to eliminate the social democratic leadership of unions and labour parties.

Yeah, by adopting their rhetoric, joining their ranks, and suddenly making a 360 and expecting people to follow you like dogs after a chunk of fresh meat. If it looks like a bourgeoisie, and quacks like a bourgeoisie...


You're inability to understand the importance of working within the labour unions is the reason that socialists like yourself will build nothing more than protests against the police.

And what have you built, 'comrade'? A little section of half a dozen Trots who symbolically wave flags at anti-war demonstrations, and turn their backs and attack comrades who actually take to the streets to fight the most acute and brutal tool of our oppression? Organize "student strikes" which 4 months later are completely forgotten about? Atleast those same comrades who you now turn your backs on have and would still support whatever clandestine "organization" you attempt.


I do not excuse the action of the police.

You're incapable of realizing it, but you are. You're excusing their actions by urging people not to resist them, and by denouncing and attacking those that do. You've solidly joined the ranks of reaction in this country by taking up their rhetoric and hoisting their pro-Police, anti-resistence flags. It's simply a matter of you being too stupid to realize it.


Workers will not put themselves in harm's way to get a chance to hit a cop when they have actual responsibilities to themselves and their families.

Tell that to the Koreans, asshole.


As for us showing our true colours.

I think you just did; the fact that you hold workers in such a weak-spined and negative light is extremely unbecoming. How the hell can you say that you have a proper analyzation of revolutionary theory when you can't even recognize the revolutionary potential of the proletariat? When you can't even recognize what they would and would not do?


All we are doing is showing our ability to analyze this like Marxists and coming to the conclusion that this sort of action is useless.

You've shown absolutely no ability to analyze anything except from the perspective of the bourgeoisie who you attempt to mimic. As far as I'm concerned, you are no comrade of mine; I wouldn't be caught dead standing with you next to your parasitic anti-proletarianism.

[RNK]

I'd also like to point out that I am very saddened by your introverted sectarianism. No other person has painted such an "us vs. them" mentality in this thread than you; going on obnoxiously about how "we're enlightened" and "we have a proper revolutionary strategy" and "we are real Marxists" -- I have half a mind to give in to your stupid fucking game and break out the ice picks.

So give it a fucking rest. If you dont stop your self-obsessed idiocy, you will get sectarianism right back at you.

[AGITprop]

Well here is the fundamental disagreement between me and you. Your attitude is appalling. The way you address a problem is with insults and hostility and I think you are setting a horrible example especially when simple discussion would prove more effective in settling our differences, although , in the long run, your a Maoist and i'm a Trotskyist and we will not agree on fundamental things but I would never go so far as to disassociate myself from you and say that you are not a comrade. Your attitude is childish and it is frankly disgusting. We don't have to agree on anything, because what really matters is the proletariat. The real test is which comrades will organize them into revolution.

[Wanted Man]

Appalling attitudes? How about this: go suck a nut, you trotskyite apologist for police brutality? One thing is untouchable for me: 100% solidarity with all victims of political imprisonment and police brutality. Someone who cannot do that, is indeed not a comrade.

We're used to this shit. The IMT also denounced the anti-G8 protesters in Rostock and Heiligendamm last summer. Read this "enlightening" thread in OI, where Axel1917 claimed, with a straight face, that the riots were to blame on "punkie-hippies" who enjoy "orgies and raves": http://www.revleft.com/vb/rostock-g8-demonstrations-t60780/index2.html (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rostock-g8-demonstrations-t60780/index.html?t=60780)

Edit: I shouldn't even say "trotskyite", because all other trotskyists do not hold this ridiculous view, as far as I know. At the time, the IMT also translated a G8 report from the social-democratic "Linkspartei". And here's the kicker: the article from the reformists was actually more radical and had more solidarity than their own! The chairman of the "stalinist" DKP also stated that there should be no condemnation of the protests.

[Wanted Man]

Anyway, to get back on topic a bit. It is absolutely vital to militantly mobilize against police brutality. As RNK's report shows, there are many tactical issues that should be improved, but it is the correct thing to do strategically. I'll explain why.

The role of riot police in demonstrations can be seen quite clearly in the G8. There, the police's short-term tactical objective was simple: to physically reduce the anti-capitalist movement as much as possible, and to gain intelligence on it, intimidate and split it psychologically. At the G8, the police adopted a tactic of escalation that clashes with the very basics of the "rule of law" that they're supposed to defend (not that it matters in the grand scheme of things). They beat as many people (protestors and journalists alike) as possible, they arrested as many people as possible. They put them in cages without feeding them, tortured them (yes, the free west tortures, get over it), sexually assaulted female prisoners, threatened imprisoned journalists, refused legal help, etc. Before the actions, they raided activist houses to gain insight on the networks.

In short, every large protest is not just an opportunity to wave flags and sell boring newspapers. It is a direct struggle with the capitalist state. There are some people who would rather the capitalist state win, so that they do not have to be confronted with this reality. Think of the IMT, who call for the exclusion of "rioters" from demonstrations, or Attac, who denounced the "rioters" in front of the camera and allowed police surveillance.

Therefore, agitation against police brutality serves a purpose: to mobilize people who would otherwise be intimidated (after being beaten up and put in a cage at a demo), and to avoid conceding ground to the state. To do this efficiently is a victory. Failure to do so is still better than doing nothing at all.

[RNK]

Well here is the fundamental disagreement between me and you.

"Fundamental disagreement", comrade, assumes some commonality or equity between our ideologies, where there is none; your "ideological difference" amounts to little more than gross betrayal of revolution, a sickening tendency to adopt and conform to bourgeois 'history' and an abandonment of resistence and struggle in favour of collaboration and obeying bourgeois law. No, you are not my comrade, and I will never stand with you, insomuch as you have already decided to stand with the bourgeoisie against me. Fucking traitor.


Anyway, to get back on topic a bit. It is absolutely vital to militantly mobilize against police brutality. As RNK's report shows, there are many tactical issues that should be improved, but it is the correct thing to do strategically. I'll explain why.

I agree. A riot is a mini-revolution in the making and its organizational potential (which Glick here has demonstrated a lack of understanding of) can be phenomenal. We have to protest against the police; they are the most tangible face of capitalist repression. Lenin knew this, even Trotsky knew this - and as a revolutionary movement grows in size and scope, such protests will naturally grow. And one day, instead of 500 or 1000 protesters, it's 10,000 or 20,000 class-conscious individuals expressing their collective anger and detestation of capitalism's armed stormtroops, and what have you got then?

But it's clear that by taking such a stance Glick has placed himself into a counter-revolutionary position, one diametrically opposed to mass insurrection and mass upheavel and one that wishes to conform "revolution" within the confines of bourgeois legality.

[Wanted Man]

Well said. :)

You know, I'm surprised that nobody has yet shown up to suggest that "cops are workers too", and that a slogan like "acab" (all cops are bastards) is shit. Well, perhaps not every individual cop is a bastard. But it sounds a lot better than "CIGTTBB" (cops in general tend to be bastards). I also do not think that all police unions are progressive. During the G8, police unions wanted authority to use live ammo on protesters. Now that's one union action I wouldn't support too soon! :p

[RNK]

'Comrades' like Glick would probably support that, and blame protesters for "inciting the police".

"If you don't want to get shot, well, don't protest!"

[Orange Revolution]

Interesting debate, a 'slight difference of opinion', but as an old hand who has seen countless 'Police Actions', I've been charged with horses and riot vans, held hostage for 8 hours with scores of totally innocent bystanders, and been beaten to shit by snatch squads. In my experience Police the world over regard themselves as a brotherhood which not only upholds the law, it is the law! To that end, if they are 'going to a party all dressed up, they are going to dance'. From the miners strikes in the 80's, when London coppers were all waving their overtime money at the penniless miners, right up to the recent Anti-War demos, they have tried to precipitate the violence. I say we must stand against this if only to grab the media headlines and make people aware the issue(s) exist. This does not make me a 'street punk', 'with nothing to lose'! Theory is all well and good, whichever you subscribe to, but actions speak louder than words...

I also don't know of anyone organising a labour movement to solve the immediate problem of Police brutality, usually they have been gassed and arrested long before they can write down the minutes of the first meeting:D

[RNK]

It is not a "slight difference of opinion". The fact of the matter is, and Glick has explained this thoroughly, people like him do not hesitate to denounce, and attack, elements of revolutionized workers, class-conscious youth and other extremely progressive members of society because they do not "fit" with his "strategy" for "revolution". They adopt the anti-worker mentality of the police, of the state and of reactionaries throughout society (and reactionary tendencies throughout society), in an effort to agitate an us versus them mentality to "win votes" -- they will not hesitate to, essentially, turn their backs on, betray, and backstab elements of progressive revolutionary forces if they feel it will "win them respect" with other far less progressive tendencies (ie, "no worker would risk themselves violently protesting against the police, therefore I will adopt that principle, denounce violence against police, and workers will then follow us rather than them"). It is sectarian, it is divisive, and most of all it is counter-revolutionary; they are not fighting for revolution, they fight for what they feel the masses want and in the end exactly what the bourgeoisie wants -- reformism, pacifism, impotency.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well said. :)

You know, I'm surprised that nobody has yet shown up to suggest that "cops are workers too", and that a slogan like "acab" (all cops are bastards) is shit. Well, perhaps not every individual cop is a bastard. But it sounds a lot better than "CIGTTBB" (cops in general tend to be bastards). I also do not think that all police unions are progressive. During the G8, police unions wanted authority to use live ammo on protesters. Now that's one union action I wouldn't support too soon! :p

Hmmm... if strike-breakers are brought in to break up cop strikes, should we ironically side with the strike-breakers? :confused:

[Guest1]

RNK, you're a Maoist, think this through from a guerrilla war perspective.

Outnumbered, outgunned, untrained and ill-equipped, what does a good guerrilla leader do? Go to battle every chance you get, even if your small force gets wiped out? Or choose battles on your own terms, battles you can win, until your are organized enough to take on the enemy?

Clearly no one condemns the anti-police brutality protests on principle, we condemn them as a waste of time, and a trap which does nothing but detract from the goal of building our revolutionary forces.

Riots are not the revolution. In fact, your attempt to associate Lenin to these anarchist tactics is baffling. Lenin dedicated countless hours to defeating the narodnik, individual terrorist tactics that were in vogue at the time in Russia. This was the prerequisite to building the bolshevik revolution. He had to destroy the hold that this kind of "romantic terrorism" had on the movement.

It's not enough to be a romantic martyr, fighting a lost cause against the police, we must build a revolutionary movement of the whole of the working class.

The formless anger of a riot is the immature expression of discontent. Our role as Marxists isn't to worship it, it's to build something more coherent out of it, and push off direct physical confrontations with the enemy as long as possible, preferably until our forces can win such a confrontation.

If Lenin supported rioting at all times and under any circumstances, then why did he put all his energy into preventing insurrection during the July days in 1917, when the protests were all armed, and hundreds of thousands strong?

Your protests are clearly not armed, and don't have anywhere near those kinds of numbers, what makes them more likely to succeed than those July protests?

[chegitz guevara]

CyM for the win.

[RNK]

I never said that these kinds of riots are "the revolution", but they are certainly in no way shape or form exclusive of it. And I have said already that I do not support these kinda of riots on the grounds that they "might succeed" -- we all know they won't, no more than the plethora of anti-war protests, anti-capitalist demonstrations or any other mundane and subdued gathering of a couple hundred people that is essentially ignored by everyone else.

And that's the point. You were at the anti-war protest earlier that day. Do you really think a couple hundred people marching through downtown Montreal, shouting this or that slogan, is going to have any impact on the war? Do you think gathering around and listening to the same speeches a dozen times over, handing out the same leaflets that bear the same messages to the same people (while they're handing you theirs) is going to change anything either? Anti-war protests aren't the revolution, but you don't seem to have a problem taking part in them. But we take part in them anyway, out of principle, because it's the right thing to do, and we do it because it might lead to something, because our pamphlets might interest a few people, because the entire thing might generate a tiny increase in support for revolutionary ideals.

So if you're arguing against the anti-brutality demos on the basis of productivity then maybe we should all refrain from any activity that doesn't have a clear, realistic chance of sparking a spontaneous society-wide revolution.

And if you're arguing against the anti-brutality demos on the basis of it "turning people away" then likewise I'd say that the majority of the population at this present time is turned away by pretty much all aspects of revolutionary politics. And while it may be harder to defend malicious propaganda against "hooligan anarchists" it doesn't change the fact that protesting police brutality is the right thing to do from a moral and material standpoint, and it doesn't change the fact that condemning and denouncing it is reactionary and anti-progressive stance. As I said, if you various shades of pacifists supported protesting police brutality rather than protesting their victims, then it just might become more productive. I can understand some average Joe Lafluer being detested by these kinds of actions, but we are supposed to know better, and there's no excuse for a self-proclaimed revolutionary to adopt the rhetoric of reactionaries.

[RNK]

if strike-breakers are brought in to break up cop strikes, should we ironically side with the strike-breakers?

Any strike-breakers brought in to break up cop strikes would inevitably be members of the same clique as the cops themselves. It'd be very interesting to see employed cops attacking striking cops. There would, of course, be no reason to support the strike-breakers under any circumstances.

[AGITprop]

RNK, I dont understand how I am adopting the rhetoric of reactionaries. And I'm glad we agree that these protests are not the revolution. That being said. I believe that it is important that we are present at these protests to help put out our ideas to those who will eventually realize that more serious action is necessary. What I don't think we agree with is the fact that, historically, anti-police brutality protests, which I am in solidarity with (!), are known to start riots which cause clashes between the armed wing of the ruling class and a small minority. And on this point, I call it out as being unproductive! If it were a protest, as the anti-war demo was, where we had the chance to put out propaganda, I would attend, as would many others, but alot of us know that historically, these turn into riots, and getting arrested right now is in no ones interest, as we do not have a majority of people backing this. Don't get me wrong as you already have, I don't denounce the people in these riots and call their struggle out as being a bad one, I denounce the futility of this direct action at this time and in no way side with the bourgeoisie or ruling class government. And I think that instead of swearing at me and acting in a hostile manner we could easily resolved our issues without stirring a shit storm. So, I would like to clear things up between us as I do consider you a comrade, and would appreciate if we could have civil discussion in the future.

[RNK]

This protest is nothing more than an excuse for lumpen-proletariat and Anarchists to get an adrenaline rush.


at the end of the day, it is a poor excuse for leftists to claim that they get beaten by the police.


I understand that they are mistreated by police officers, but you cannot blame the police entirely as these people do agitate the police themselves.


therefore i denounce these actions and call them once again, unproductive.


Either because they have no ideological basis to organize or they are just adrenaline junkies with no prospects and nothing to lose, looking for a good time.


the people who do stick around to fight police officers are those with nothing to lose, like the street punks.

You're doing your best to backpeddle now, but your previous quotes quite clearly show a striking similarity, if not outright mimicry, of a reactionary, counter-revolutionary mindset.

I can understand if you're too afraid to get arrested, or if you think it is unproductive, and I wouldn't shun you if this was indeed the sum of your arguement. But it isn't. While you've rattled on about "unproductivity" you've also said quite a number of absolutely unaccepable things and this is why I shun you.

[AGITprop]

You're doing your best to backpeddle now, but your previous quotes quite clearly show a striking similarity, if not outright mimicry, of a reactionary, counter-revolutionary mindset.

I can understand if you're too afraid to get arrested, or if you think it is unproductive, and I wouldn't shun you if this was indeed the sum of your arguement. But it isn't. While you've rattled on about "unproductivity" you've also said quite a number of absolutely unaccepable things and this is why I shun you.

I'm not backpedaling, as I still stand behind all that I've said with conviction. You just refuse to accept the context in which they are being said and are trying to paint me as a counter-revolutionary. Honestly, I could not care less if you wish to act this way and I don't intend to argue any further.

[Keyser]

To Gunther Glick:

Where RNK, myself and others have an issue with you is the language you used. What your posts, espcially the first one, on this thread implied you denounced outright the plight, methods and cause of the protest and it's participants. That is very different from constructive criticism, which I would encourage every socialist and communist to use in all circumstances. Constructive criticism whilst offereing support and solidarity means that a person can state their disagreement with a position or issue and offer a viable alternative but at the same time does not mean rejecting the methods of struggle outright to the point that it entails support or at least support by default for the side of the class enemy.

I have read some of your criticisms of the protest, if you really are not opposing this protest out of any sectarian motivations, then my suggestion is that you attend the meeting of anti-police brutality groups and upon listening and learning the positions of these groups and why the people involved wish to show publicly their opposition to the police, offer your own suggestions and if you hold disagreements with them, to debate those disagreements with them and find some point on which all ideas can be exhanged and worked upon.

I too have some suggestions for the anti-police brutality demonstrators in terms of their methods and their work. Just because they at present don't use the methods I think would be useful to their struggle, does not mean that I denounce them and it certainly means I would never write them off and speak in a way that would imply support or sympathy for the police (who are armed enemies of the working class).

Likewise, I don't agree with every single position of the party (www.cpgb-ml.org.uk (http://www.cpgb-ml.org.uk)) I am a member of, but that does not mean I write off my party nor do I leave/split it in a sectarian manner. I simply debate my differences on party policy and contribute to a healthy culture of inter-party debate and politics.

Also, if your criticisms are constructive and not sectarian, what do you think would be a more effective method of resisting police oppression?


What I don't think we agree with is the fact that, historically, anti-police brutality protests, which I am in solidarity with (!), are known to start riots which cause clashes between the armed wing of the ruling class and a small minority.

Unless you where there to witness that, you cannot lay the blame on either the police or the protestors on who started the violence. I was not there and likewise I am not going to speculate on who started the violence first.

That said, many a protest the police themselves start violence or provoke protestors to such a extent that they know violence will occur.

Also, even if the protestors started violence against the police, how is that relevant? Let's use a materialist analysis here and be consistent in siding with the forces that line up against the bourgeois state and class. It is not a question of who started what, but that we support our class side against the class enemy, even if we do start it.

[AGITprop]

Where RNK, myself and others have an issue with you is the language you used. What your posts, espcially the first one, on this thread implied you denounced outright the plight, methods and cause of the protest and it's participants. That is very different from constructive criticism, which I would encourage every socialist and communist to use in all circumstances. Constructive criticism whilst offereing support and solidarity means that a person can state their disagreement with a position or issue and offer a viable alternative but at the same time does not mean rejecting the methods of struggle outright to the point that it entails support or at least support by default for the side of the class enemy.
Alright, perhaps the language used was inappropriate and conveyed a perceivably different message. I am constructively criticizing the situation. I said that protests are effective in terms of comrades being able to hand out propaganda and show our solidarity. But your idea of my support by default for the ruling class is a logical flaw and it is immature. You are blatantly lying because anyone who knows me on and especially off this board will know where I stand. This was my position on the protest and RNK chose to label me as a counter-revolutionary. I had expected much more from him.


I have read some of your criticisms of the protest, if you really are not opposing this protest out of any sectarian motivations, then my suggestion is that you attend the meeting of anti-police brutality groups and upon listening and learning the positions of these groups and why the people involved wish to show publicly their opposition to the police, offer your own suggestions and if you hold disagreements with them, to debate those disagreements with them and find some point on which all ideas can be exhanged and worked upon. This is a great suggestion, unfortunately I do not have the time to do such a thing. And again, I do support their effort in combating oppression through the police. I do stand in solidarity and I support protests to raise awareness and denounce brutality. But as I have been to these protests the last two years, I know what they turn into. I've had to run from police officers ready to strike me with their batons because I was in the crowd who instigated the attacks. Though I will agree that police do incite as well. What I denounce is the fact that people are willing to stay behind and fight the police when they clearly are not armed and not in any position to fight. This is ridiculous. Once the violence starts, I strongly believe it is time to leave. It gives us a much better image in front of others who support the fight against police brutality and doesn't make us out to be hooligans.





Also, if your criticisms are constructive and not sectarian, what do you think would be a more effective method of resisting police oppression? Under capitalism and control of the ruling bourgeois class we cannot fight the police. I do support protests and I think that any brutality on the part of the police should be avoided and if that is impossible to report it to the media, right articles and raise awareness. For now that is all we can do if we are interested in fighting this. We are in no position to literally fight them. It is immature to think otherwise. We have not reached revolution yet.




Unless you where there to witness that, you cannot lay the blame on either the police or the protestors on who started the violence. I was not there and likewise I am not going to speculate on who started the violence first. Fair enough. But in my experience with these protests, they have always been violent. From what I have seen in the past it is usually lumpen-proles with literally nothing to lose who have incited violence and the police were aways glad to reciprocate. This is why I reiterate the importance of avoiding violence because this will lead nowhere except a jail cell. Any comrade who sees himself more useful in jail-cell is fooling himself into thinking his actions are productive at this time.



Also, even if the protestors started violence against the police, how is that relevant? Let's use a materialist analysis here and be consistent in siding with the forces that line up against the bourgeois state and class. It is not a question of who started what, but that we support our class side against the class enemy, even if we do start it. I disagree. I will not work with leftists who put my life in danger at this time as it is useless. Fighting police officers right now is an immature expression of class struggle. We need to concentrate on organizing and not getting arrested because their will be fighting, and it will be much more serious that a handful of activists pummeling police officers with ice and bottles. That is why I denounce the use of violence in protests of that size.

Also, I appreciate your use of civility in discussing with me.

[RNK]

I do stand in solidarity and I support protests to raise awareness and denounce brutality.

Yet you call those who actually do [protest street punks, adrenaline junkies and kids with nothing to lose looking for a fight.

Of course, the fact that I was there and am sitting here telling you that the police attacked us first is meaningless to you. Despite this fact you continue to act as if we started it, and in some twisted, sickening way, blame us for being the victims of police brutality!

I suppose when the RCP held that demonstration in St Jerome last summer, they provoked the police into attacking and shutting us down, vandalizing and stealing our equipment, and arresting almost a dozen of us. I suppose when the undercover cops at Montebello strode through the protest with rocks in hand, we provoked them. Hell, I bet Sean Bell provoked the police into gunning him down, and every other deceased victim of police brutality "deserves what they got" for not adopting the good ol' Trot strategy of tucking their tails between their legs and running the other way and doing everything possible to avoid pissing anyone off.

Whatever. I don't give a shit as long as you stay out of my way.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

I will not work with leftists who put my life in danger at this time as it is useless.Alright, I think your stance is clear.
When you become revolutionary, please get in touch with us.
Until then, good luck with your reformist projects.

[nvm]

I liked CyM's post and I agree 100%
Gunther Glic has a point too.
RNK you seem confused

[AGITprop]

Alright, I think your stance is clear.
When you become revolutionary, please get in touch with us.
Until then, good luck with your reformist projects.

Perhaps you should understand the word reformism before using it and labeling someone as such. You'll make more enemies talking about things you don't understand than by speaking the truth.

[Magic Snowman]

Yet you call those who actually do [protest street punks, adrenaline junkies and kids with nothing to lose looking for a fight.

Of course, the fact that I was there and am sitting here telling you that the police attacked us first is meaningless to you. Despite this fact you continue to act as if we started it, and in some twisted, sickening way, blame us for being the victims of police brutality!


RNK, you can't seriously be claiming that people who show up to a anti-police brutality march and start smashing storefronts and torching cars aren't looking to provoke a confrontation with the police. You know the oppressive system we live under. You know that breaking a Starbucks window in front of a line of guys with the word "POLICE" on their helmets is likely to get you beat with big sticks.

Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with protesting police brutality. I fully support marching down the street yelling "FUCK THE POLICE" or "LES POLICES AUX SERVICE DES RICHES ET DES FACISTES" as loud as you want. In fact I did so myself a few months ago after the riot squad attacked striking students at UQAM. But once it turns into a street battle, your average worker is just going to be turned away.


And if you're arguing against the anti-brutality demos on the basis of it "turning people away" then likewise I'd say that the majority of the population at this present time is turned away by pretty much all aspects of revolutionary politics. And while it may be harder to defend malicious propaganda against "hooligan anarchists" it doesn't change the fact that protesting police brutality is the right thing to do from a moral and material standpoint, and it doesn't change the fact that condemning and denouncing it is reactionary and anti-progressive stance. As I said, if you various shades of pacifists supported protesting police brutality rather than protesting their victims, then it just might become more productive. I can understand some average Joe Lafluer being detested by these kinds of actions, but we are supposed to know better, and there's no excuse for a self-proclaimed revolutionary to adopt the rhetoric of reactionaries.

But that is exactly the point. All the Joe Lafluers out there working in factories or McDonald'ses or whatever, have to be won over to revolutionary ideas otherwise there WILL NEVER BE ANY KIND OF REVOLUTION. Our scattered groups of convicted revolutionaries will never overthrow global capitalism by ourselves, we need to demonstrate to the workers of worlds that that's the only way out of their oppression. And that means building patiently, not jumping five steps ahead of them and playing into the hands of the bourgeoisie's spin-machine.

[RNK]

Jesus Christ, you people are like fucking cockroaches.


RNK, you can't seriously be claiming that people who show up to a anti-police brutality march and start smashing storefronts and torching cars aren't looking to provoke a confrontation with the police.

Hi, if you'd bothered to read any of my 5 or so previous posts in this thread, I'd bother replying to you seriously. Unfortunately you haven't, so unfortunately I won't.


In fact I did so myself a few months ago after the riot squad attacked striking students at UQAM. But once it turns into a street battle, your average worker is just going to be turned away.

And when those riot cops "attacked" :lol: you, did you turn around and run and vow never to return, else you risked "inciting the police into beating you"?

I'll say it one last time: The police attacked us on Saturday, several times, infact, before we started reciprocating. And while there were a small minority who seemed more interested in causing trouble, smashing windows and looting, they were a minority and were shunned by the majority.

In any case, this is an incredibly important example of what side Montreal Trotskyists are really on - the one opposed to the victims of capitalism, and the one that supports the unopposed continuation of bourgeois rule. I'd have thought you guys better, but apparently I was wrong. I hope the RCP realizes this before it's too late.

[AGITprop]

Jesus Christ, you people are like fucking cockroaches. That's a good thing.


I'll say it one last time: The police attacked us on Saturday, several times, infact, before we started reciprocating. And while there were a small minority who seemed more interested in causing trouble, smashing windows and looting, they were a minority and were shunned by the majority. This is understood. The police attacked you first. I don't agree that, fighting back was tactically useful at all at this time



In any case, this is an incredibly important example of what side Montreal Trotskyists are really on - the one opposed to the victims of capitalism, and the one that supports the unopposed continuation of bourgeois rule. I'd have thought you guys better, but apparently I was wrong. I hope the RCP realizes this before it's too late.
You are definitely suffering from delusions. Your formal logic is limiting you to one conclusion, that we support the bourgeoisie. If we don't agree with RCP methods, we must be the enemy. NO, I can assure we are not your enemies. The fact of the matter is, our principles are opposed to yours when dealing with this kind of situation. You can either deal with maturely or not.

[Wanted Man]

Jesus Christ, you people are like fucking cockroaches.
It looks like the Montreal IMT has found something 'productive' to do: send all its members to RevLeft to argue with you about anti-police brutality actions. It seems pretty useless to argue with them, they are robots, programmed to believe their shitty trotskyite line. You'd have more luck deprogramming a Scientologist or a LaRouchite.


This is understood. The police attacked you first. I don't agree that, fighting back was tactically useful at all at this time
Really? What should they have done, then?

[Guest1]

It looks like the Montreal IMT has found something 'productive' to do: send all its members to RevLeft to argue with you about anti-police brutality actions. It seems pretty useless to argue with them, they are robots, programmed to believe their shitty trotskyite line. You'd have more luck deprogramming a Scientologist or a LaRouchite.
The vast majority of the IMT members in montreal think this place is too fucked up to waste time on. I tend to agree, but there's no reason for me not to post here on my free time, same with the few others that do.


Really? What should they have done, then?
Leave and not get arrested.

It is actually pretty simple, there is no reason to allow ourselves to be provoked into a battle we can't win.

Organizing a left tendency in the unions seems to me to be a better use of our time than getting ourselves beaten and arrested.

[RNK]

It looks like the Montreal IMT has found something 'productive' to do: send all its members to RevLeft to argue with you about anti-police brutality actions.

:lol:


Leave and not get arrested.

Tuck our tails between our legs.


there is no reason to allow ourselves to be provoked into a battle we can't win.

First of all, that's just defeatism talking.


Organizing a left tendency in the unions seems to me to be a better use of our time than getting ourselves beaten and arrested.

Trying to agitate union radicalism has been a lot less unsuccessful for a lot longer time than protesting and fighting the police.

[Wanted Man]

Leave and not get arrested.

It is actually pretty simple, there is no reason to allow ourselves to be provoked into a battle we can't win.
Of course, once the robocops decide to smash up a demonstration, people will most likely get arrested. Trying to run from them won't really change that. Even if you don't get arrested, it's still probably going to hurt a bit. Cops here quite like that: clubbing people around with the baton or arresting them for the "crime" of "disobeying a police order". Not even necessarily for fighting, but just for refusing to leave, or to disperse the protest.

Of course, if your idea of a successful protest is to instantly disperse as soon as a few cops start waving batons and telling you to leave the premises, that's all up to you. But it's really lame to then write articles sanctimoniously denouncing the rest of the left as "hooligans". If your organization had any relevance, it could have far-reaching effects. Like in Rostock, when Attac leaders allowed the police to accompany them, and denounced all the "rioters" in the mass media.


Organizing a left tendency in the unions seems to me to be a better use of our time than getting ourselves beaten and arrested.
Yes, that's certainly an argument that you guys use a lot. But what are you actually doing to that effect? What kind of success has this brought you?

[NaxalbariZindabad]

Leave and not get arrested.

That's exactly what I did.
(Right after I beat up a few cops.)

[RNK]

Of course, running doesn't really help when the police barge into the middle of the protest with vans filled with riot cops and trap 50 or so of you, and then hold you there for 3 hours simply for taking part in the demo.

From what I saw, it would have been completely possible to free those attacked comrades if just a few more people had the balls to actually stand up against oppression, rather than run and hide and conspire from the safety of the internet.

[Wanted Man]

By the way, I also think it's kind of lame to complain about "hooligans" or "lumpens". There have been many occasions here where local football hooligans most effectively and most fiercely attacked nazi demonstrations. But I guess that's also not worth getting arrested over, and the nazis should be allowed to demonstrate unopposed because we're radicalizing the unions for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes:

[AGITprop]

By the way, I also think it's kind of lame to complain about "hooligans" or "lumpens". There have been many occasions here where local football hooligans most effectively and most fiercely attacked nazi demonstrations. But I guess that's also not worth getting arrested over, and the nazis should be allowed to demonstrate unopposed because we're radicalizing the unions for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes:

And what exactly are the Stalinists doing with their junior assistants the Hoxhaists? I noticed alot more people wearing the Walrus-stache, have you been getting the word out? Good work, 'comrade'

[Guest1]

We're not on the eve of the revolution. Riots are counterproductive. No one supports the police cracking down on them, but everyone has the right to expose the lumpen and ultra-left elements involved in them.

When will we get down to the work of building a mass revolutionary party if we're running around throwing rocks at cops? What is the gain? What is the advantage of being arrested, other than "revolutionary street cred"? Thanks but no thanks, you can have your heroic but pointless deeds, go and make a poster of yourself throwing a tear gas canister back at the cops or something. If that satisfies your "revolutionary rambo" fantasy, so be it. Me, on the other hand, I'd rather do the long-term trudge work of helping to build something massive enough to sweep the cops aside with little to no effort.

Patient work is what is needed right now, you two need to read Lenin's critiques of "excitative terror", which is exactly what you are practicing by advocating riots as a line of march.

[RNK]

Well, it didn't take Glick long to revert completely into stereotypical sectarianism. :rolleyes:


When will we get down to the work of building a mass revolutionary party if we're running around throwing rocks at cops?

Perhaps the other 364 days that aren't anti police brutality protest days?


What is the gain?

The "gain" is allowing those who have felt the oppression of this system most acutely to express their anger. I wouldn't expect CEGEP Trots like Glick to understand the smoldering "fire" of exploitation that some of us have to face on a daily basis, but I expected more understanding from you.


I'd rather do the long-term trudge work of helping to build something massive enough to sweep the cops aside with little to no effort.

Good for you. Fortunately, spending 5 hours out of a single day in a single year hasn't affected my ability to do the same.


Patient work is what is needed right now

What you call "patient work", I call fantasization and idealism over a long-dead 100-year-old dream. The difference is, though, despite how I feel about your "work" and its effectiveness, I would never denounce it or you. I'm sorry to see you guys are incapable of reciprocating.

[AGITprop]

Well, it didn't take Glick long to revert completely into stereotypical sectarianism. :rolleyes: The word sectarian gets thrown around here a lot without many who use it knowing what it means. Tell me please; how am I sectarian? Because I refuse to be arrested when there is much much more to do?




Perhaps the other 364 days that aren't anti police brutality protest days? If your not serving a prison sentence.




The "gain" is allowing those who have felt the oppression of this system most acutely to express their anger. I wouldn't expect CEGEP Trots like Glick to understand the smoldering "fire" of exploitation that some of us have to face on a daily basis, but I expected more understanding from you. I won't appologize for being in school and the fact that you look down on me for that is very reflective of your immaturity as a leftist.



What you call "patient work", I call fantasization and idealism over a long-dead 100-year-old dream. The difference is, though, despite how I feel about your "work" and its effectiveness, I would never denounce it or you. I'm sorry to see you guys are incapable of reciprocating. You have the right to denounce whatever you want. Perhaps you should grow a pair and stop whining every time someone doesn't agree with the RCP? I couldn't not care less how you feel about our work or it's effectiveness and neither does any other member of the entire IMT.

[Wanted Man]

And what exactly are the Stalinists doing with their junior assistants the Hoxhaists? I noticed alot more people wearing the Walrus-stache, have you been getting the word out? Good work, 'comrade'
Haha, I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to run out of arguments and flip out. Putting comrade between quotation marks; I'm devastated! Only putting it in italics would have been sharper. Congratulations on being a loser, and a poor one at that.

I think we've been doing pretty well, given our limited means and size. We organize about concrete issues that "combine marxism and the workers' movement", as Jacob Richter here would put it. We organize against the demolition of social housing projects, the liberalization of education, but also against fascist marches and for solidarity with Cuba. Very concrete issues in their own right, but all interconnected in our activity, because we connect a marxist analysis to them.

But of course, people like you will find any excuse to denounce these things. I notice that you refused to answer my question to CyM on top of this page. Instead, you got angry after I made fun of the whole "radicalizing the unions" thing later on, while also slamming short-sighted denunciations of 'hooligans' and 'lumpens'. I know why you got angry: you can't answer my question, because you will not be able to radicalize the unions on your own, no matter how hard you try. Your long-term strategies have been abject failures, and still you refuse to organize on the most concrete issues at stake. You can conceal that by whining about stalinists and hoxhaists all day, but it's not going to change simple facts.

Uh-oh, I just said that something is a plain fact! I wonder what Glick is going to do next. I guess he's going to dismiss my argument because I'm using logic, which is inferior to dialectical materialism. That's right: your arguments mean nothing, you silly logic user! :laugh:

Che y Marijuana: RNK and I have already explained the need to oppose police brutality on page 1. Glick was unable to refute them. I suggest you have a shot at it, instead of rambling on about some kind of "revolutionary rambo" or whatever your strawman is.

[AGITprop]

By the way, I also think it's kind of lame to complain about "hooligans" or "lumpens". There have been many occasions here where local football hooligans most effectively and most fiercely attacked nazi demonstrations. But I guess that's also not worth getting arrested over, and the nazis should be allowed to demonstrate unopposed because we're radicalizing the unions for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes:
No one said it would be easy and quick. And I'm not saying Trotskyists have not made mistakes in the past. I don't glorify anyone. We have to learn from past mistakes and keep trying. The fact that you ignore unions is reflective of your sectarianism. You cannot just ignore the masses right in front of your nose.
As for the nazis, well they have the right to express their views, If they are demonstrating it is their right to freedom of expression. I will be concerned when they are attacking leftists, which very few of them are, and many a time we can rely on the bourgeois state to deal with the murders. Leftist vigilantes will only reciprocate violence and create a never ending loop of hostility.Unless your life is immediately in danger, there is no need to engage in violence with Nazis. When the Nazis start organizing against us, that will be a different story. Too bad they have nothing to organize against, as most of us waste our time throwing pebbles at police officers instead of dealing with workers.

As for organizing on concrete issues at stake, I'm happy to know that with your all seeing eye you have watched all our actions and have concluded we sit around in union meetings all day and wait for them to radicalize. We are much more involved than that and are building slowly but surely. So I would advise you don't make assumptions that you cannot back up.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

I wont waste anymore of my time answering to you IMT guys.
If you want to discuss with my comrades and I, just call me or send me an email.
You can come into my house anytime.
Just contact me and we can discuss in person.
This Internet discussion is bullshit.

Join the vanguard party or die tryin.

[Wanted Man]

So I would advise you don't make assumptions that you cannot back up.
Says the guy who thinks I "ignore trade unions". Who says I do? I just think your method of political work is futile. That doesn't mean unions should be ignored.

And you still haven't told us what you're building, or how you intend to do it. It's obvious why, because the answer is nothing.

Your idea about nazis is just so retarded, I can't imagine that you're serious about it. So we should not oppose nazis? We should allow them to march through immigrant neighbourhoods, calling for the execution of the people living there? That's "freedom of speech", right? You're a spineless liberal.

Edit: yes, let the bourgeois state deal with it when nazis start murdering. It's working out great in Russia!

[RNK]

Tell me please; how am I sectarian?

:rolleyes:


And what exactly are the Stalinists doing with their junior assistants the Hoxhaists? I noticed alot more people wearing the Walrus-stache, have you been getting the word out?

And then there was yesterday in Livechat, where I believe you said something about Mao teaching me well.


If your not serving a prison sentence.

Tell me, how many people who were arrested last weekend still in jail?


won't appologize for being in school and the fact that you look down on me for that is very reflective of your immaturity as a leftist.

Lol! If you think I was insulting the simple fact that you're in school, you're an idiot. What I was insulting is how people like you who come from fairly stable backgrounds and go to CEGEP and think their part in making the world a better place is attending monotonous HoV meetings every once in awhile, and who criticize and denounce other revolutionaries from their pedestal of "civilized culture" are wankers and idiots.


You have the right to denounce whatever you want. Perhaps you should grow a pair and stop whining every time someone doesn't agree with the RCP?

Oh, now he who is too afraid to protest against the police is telling me to grow a pair! Yeah, I'm sure you've got some fat ones hanging there in your HoV meetings. Takes a lot of balls to hold a meeting with half a dozen guys and then pat each other on the back for a job well done, and then go home and sit on the internet prancing around about how you're "so revolutionary" and "so much more Marxist than everyone else". :lol:


Too bad they have nothing to organize against, as most of us waste our time throwing pebbles at police officers instead of dealing with workers.


Lol! Seriously, you guys ought to really start looking at your own failures rather than blaming people who actually do shit while you're busy enjoying some group mental masturbation. Oh noes, our glorious revolutionary attempts to radicalize unions have failed because one day a year some anarchists and far-leftists hold a demonstration against police brutality!

You're worse than anarchists blaming the failure of the Spanish Civil War on Stalin.

[RNK]

On a more serious note, I'd like to see the IMT's reasoning the fact that as many people showed up for the anti-brutality protest as did the anti-war protest a couple hours earlier.

If the anti-brutality protest was such a "counter-productive waste of time" then why did you guys attend the anti-war protest which had approximately the same numbers of people? Even if we concluded that the mainstream media would paint the anti-brutality movement in a much more negative light than the anti-war movement (which, btw, is an overstatement; check out the Gazette's article on the anti-brutality demo for a surprisingly pro-demonstration viewpoint), the fact that both events generated a similar-sized crowd should be enough of a reason to take part in it, if only to touch base with activists and take part in a justified protest.

Yes, a minority number of protesters (which you still haven't acknowledged, choosing instead to smear each and every person who took part as a street scum hooligan) did some questionable things, like smash up Couche-Tard windows and torch what may have been an unmarked police car. But is this really enough of a reason that the IMT would throw its hands into the air and adopt a no-go policy despite the fact that you guys showed up at the similar-sized anti-war protest?

No, protests like these are not "the revolution", but they are a very large grouping of very progressive leftist activists who are a lot more permeable by revolutionary ideas than the pathetic neoliberal anti-war activist crowd. If anything, your decision to take part in that feel-good hippyfest and not the far more progressive anti-brutality protest is ultimately the less productive choice. If anything, you should've taken part in both, like the RCP did, regardless of whether or not you decided to throw rocks at cops.

Anyway, I'm pretty satisfied with the conclusion that Glick is your average white college hipster with no real material connection to class struggle or the deep exploitation of this system who feels secure denouncing and criticizing the revolutionary activity of those who are. And you, CyM, I get the feeling you're only defending Glick's position out of the principle of comradery.

Anyway, this is only a discussion, and really doesn't matter very much at all. We'll each continue to do "our thing" and maybe one day one of us will be vindicated. In the end, I'm satisfied with the fact that like Glick said, I have chosen not to denounce you or your revolutionary "activity" despite my personal feelings of its effectiveness while you lot have chosen to take the more hostile and sectarian approach of denouncing me and going so far as to parrot the attacks of the bourgeois press to further your own aims.

So, whatever.

[AGITprop]

Tell me, how many people who were arrested last weekend still in jail? I assume zero. Welcome to Montreal, where being arrested for rioting gets you a day in jail. I'd like to see how many of you would fight the police with such small numbers so liberally somewhere like Indonesia where you'd be imprisoned for two years for such behavior. Nice to know you can go around facing off with the law for your bragging rights about one day in jail.




Lol! If you think I was insulting the simple fact that you're in school, you're an idiot. What I was insulting is how people like you who come from fairly stable backgrounds and go to CEGEP and think their part in making the world a better place is attending monotonous HoV meetings every once in awhile, and who criticize and denounce other revolutionaries from their pedestal of "civilized culture" are wankers and idiots. Perhaps you should stop digging your hole deeper by making assumptions about my 'fairly stable background' which you suddenly have such great knowledge about. HoV events don't make the world a better place. What they do, do is expose people to real issues going on in the world. Gives us the chance to discuss with people genuinely interested in socialism to express themselves and speak with others. The fact that you use our events where we aim to educate as an insult reflects the utter bankruptcy of your perspective. Also, what is your point by stating the fact that I am in school. Yes, I am. I want to train myself to work, is there a problem? It must be because my 'fairly stable background' has spoiled me.




Oh, now he who is too afraid to protest against the police is telling me to grow a pair! Yeah, I'm sure you've got some fat ones hanging there in your HoV meetings. Takes a lot of balls to hold a meeting with half a dozen guys and then pat each other on the back for a job well done, and then go home and sit on the internet prancing around about how you're "so revolutionary" and "so much more Marxist than everyone else". I never said it took balls to host an HoV event. Just a bit more brains than it takes to fight police officers unarmed with a few hundred people. I see you did use some of your brain that day, but your balls seem to have witheed away as well.
At this point I got the fuck out. Didn't want to be arrested today (but almost did anyway)....I enjoyed being able to sit this one out and watch from the sidelines; it let me observe things I may not have observed otherwise. I saw several people -- and heard from more -- get jabs to the ribs, or smacked in the arm, back, or head, simply for being within arm's reach -- it didn't matter if they were protester, or college student, or middle-aged couple who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bystanders were shoved, punched and manhandled by angry, screaming cops -- protesters got it worse. Good to know you helped your comrades in this ever so heroic fight against the police, and enjoyed 'observing' innocent people being assaulted. Shove your self-righteous shit up your ass! You didn't even fight the fucking cops so don't call me a traitor for denouncing this ridiculous activity when you yourself refused to get involved.

[AGITprop]

If the anti-brutality protest was such a "counter-productive waste of time" then why did you guys attend the anti-war protest which had approximately the same numbers of people? Even if we concluded that the mainstream media would paint the anti-brutality movement in a much more negative light than the anti-war movement (which, btw, is an overstatement; check out the Gazette's article on the anti-brutality demo for a surprisingly pro-demonstration viewpoint), the fact that both events generated a similar-sized crowd should be enough of a reason to take part in it, if only to touch base with activists and take part in a justified protest. Two reasons. One, we had a meeting scheduled right after the anti-war demo, which we could have moved to later on to attend the police demo but realize that, Two, these demos always degenerate into futile, unproductive fighting with the police and we did not want to be in harm's way as we have other things to do.



Anyway, I'm pretty satisfied with the conclusion that Glick is your average white college hipster with no real material connection to class struggle or the deep exploitation of this system who feels secure denouncing and criticizing the revolutionary activity of those who are. And you, CyM, I get the feeling you're only defending Glick's position out of the principle of comradery. White and in college, yes. Totally irrelevant though. Hipster? no. Material connection to class struggle? Well I am a student so I have no class but I am a Marxist so I have class consciousness. And by the way. CyM, is not defending my position purely out of principle, this is the opinion of the IMT as a whole, not only in Montreal, but nationally and internationally. We actually discuss our position on issues and democratically decided on what we support and do not. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.

[RNK]

Welcome to Montreal, where being arrested for rioting gets you a day in jail.

This kind of debunks the arguement "you can't organize if you're in jail". Thanks for proving my point.


I'd like to see how many of you would fight the police with such small numbers so liberally somewhere like Indonesia where you'd be imprisoned for two years for such behavior.

More than likely it wouldn't be in such small numbers and it would be accompanied by a far larger insurrectionary movement, involving scary guns and loud explosions and other colourful tools.


What they do, do is expose people to real issues going on in the world.

You mean like exposing police brutality?


It must be because my 'fairly stable background' has spoiled me.

*WHOOSH*

That was the sound of my point flying over your head.


You didn't even fight the fucking cops

There's a big difference between taking part in an event, then supporting it from the sidelines, and completely avoiding an event and denouncing it from the sidelines. Come on, think a little bit before you talk!


so don't call me a traitor for denouncing this ridiculous activity when you yourself refused to get involved.

I'm calling you a traitor because you've adopted the same rhetoric as the bourgeois press in denouncing the event and its participants as nothing but violent street kids. This position is diametrically opposed to revolutionary ideals and is completely reactionary. As you claim you are a progressive and a revolutionary, then yes, you are a traitor.


Well I am a student so I have no class but I am a Marxist so I have class consciousness.

Congratulations, you've learned to read, bought a copy of the manifesto, read over it thoroughly, and out popped a good little Marxist, eh?

Class consciousness is more than just reading a few books and learning to recite them -- particularly if you then turn around and read a few bourgeois newspapers and learn to recite them. Class consciousness is meaningless if you adopt positions contrary to the oppressed classes.

[RedHal]

The arrogance of Trotskyists never ceases to amaze me. To denounce these protesters as "street kids" and punks and admits to finding it humorous seeing police brutality, I would expect to hear from petit bourgeois liberals, not from supposed revolutionaries. I don't agree and will not participate in these confrontaions but I support them un conditionally.

[RNK]

Please don't fucking ruin my position by coming here ranting about "Trotskyists". There are a hell of a lot of communists of all flavours who hold these reactionary views and they are in no way exclusive to Trotskyists nor does every Trotskyists feel this way. You're just acting like Glick now, coming in here with that sectarianism.

[AGITprop]

This kind of debunks the arguement "you can't organize if you're in jail". Thanks for proving my point. Right. But why bother having to deal with being processed at the police station and stay in a cell anyway? Waste of time, especially when all that got you there was a few bloodied cops.




More than likely it wouldn't be in such small numbers and it would be accompanied by a far larger insurrectionary movement, involving scary guns and loud explosions and other colourful tools. I'm happy you can predict the future.




There's a big difference between taking part in an event, then supporting it from the sidelines, and completely avoiding an event and denouncing it from the sidelines. Come on, think a little bit before you talk! So what exactly does supporting it from the sidelines do? Does your presence magically protect your comrades from batons? I'd rather avoid an event that is bound to lead to a jail cell, and I think if it was structured and maintained it's structure it would be something I and my comrades would happily attend. As you said, the police attacked you first correct? In that case, I would have walked away. Useless to stay behind an fight a force that massively out-guns you.





I'm calling you a traitor because you've adopted the same rhetoric as the bourgeois press in denouncing the event and its participants as nothing but violent street kids. This position is diametrically opposed to revolutionary ideals and is completely reactionary. As you claim you are a progressive and a revolutionary, then yes, you are a traitor. In your ridiculous opinion I have taken the same line as the bourgeois press. The reality is, and perhaps this is because of some personal bias towards me, you believe I'm a traitor because as a Marxist I don't see this event as productive. I don't denounce peoples struggle, I just denounce these immature expression of discontent. Do yo understand that? It is what I've been saying for the last 20 posts. And if this comes down to a difference in ideology, so be it, but if you call me a traitor for denouncing it, then you happily call all my comrades traitors.




Class consciousness is more than just reading a few books and learning to recite them -- particularly if you then turn around and read a few bourgeois newspapers and learn to recite them. Class consciousness is meaningless if you adopt positions contrary to the oppressed classes.I've adopted a position contrary to some so-called revolutionaries who decide to fight the police force with a few hundred people. Once again, and this will be last time I say it; I denounce this fighting as unproductive and am strongly opposed to this sort of action as it alienates you so called 'revolutionaries' from the working class, who right now, isn't so revolutionary. We can't change that by showing them us acting like animals when a few cops show up.

[RNK]

First I was just going to insult you and be done with it, but I think your reactionary position is dangerous enough to the worker's movement that it mandates confrontation.


Right. But why bother having to deal with being processed at the police station and stay in a cell anyway? Waste of time, especially when all that got you there was a few bloodied cops.

Again, even if the result were only a few bloodied cops, that is still a much more important result than was generated from that pussy anti-war protest two hours earlier which you had no problem in attending.

But beyond that, I spoke with a number of pedestrians, students, workers, a homeless guy, so on and so forth, as I "uselessly sat by the sidelines", explaining to them what was happening, why it was happening, and pointing out the violence being perpetrated by the police. Many, many others were doing the same. Judging by the mixed responses from the media, I'd say that the anti-brutality movement is actually gaining momentum, gaining support from more and more members of the working class, despite the efforts of most of the mainstream media to paint it in an extremely negative light. And that's the entire point of the protest; to publicize police brutality, and in that regard, I can say confidently that it was more of a success than the anti-war protest.


So what exactly does supporting it from the sidelines do? Does your presence magically protect your comrades from batons?

This is a really stupid thing for you to say, and I can not believe that someone who calls himself a "Marxist" would question the importance of any kind of support.

It's also stupid that you're attempting to draw a similarity between our support for progressive movements. The fact of the matter is, however, I took part in the protest, and I supported it, and I supported comrades who were assaulted by the police. You didn't take part in the protest, and worse, denounced it and denounced comrades who were assaulted, blamed them for "inciting" the police, and essentially adopted the position of the mainstream media in painting all those who took part as hooligans and street punks.


In your ridiculous opinion I have taken the same line as the bourgeois press. The reality is, and perhaps this is because of some personal bias towards me, you believe I'm a traitor because as a Marxist I don't see this event as productive.

No, I think you're stupid for not seeing the productivity of the event. I think you are a traitor because of your deeply reactionary rhetoric and hostility towards revolutionary activists and your complacency with police brutality against your fellow comrades. Get it through your fucking head already! I've only said it half a dozen fucking times.


I don't denounce peoples struggle, I just denounce these immature expression of discontent.

And this is why I called you a white, priviledged college hipster, because you think yourself so special that you can sit there and decide what is and isn't "immature" and seem to think that the working class is above violence and that people who are beaten by police provoked the police into doing so.


but if you call me a traitor for denouncing it, then you happily call all my comrades traitors.

So be it. Anyone who'd attack revolutionary activists on the level you have are nothing more than reactionary.


denounce this fighting as unproductive and am strongly opposed to this sort of action as it alienates you so called 'revolutionaries' from the working class, who right now, isn't so revolutionary.

Yes, you've said it a dozen times now, and if you'd pay attention, that isn't the fucking issue. Think whatever you want about its productivity, it's your loss for feeling these sorts of actions aren't "worthy" enough for your co-operation. But the moment you start adopting reactionary rhetoric against them, you're doing more than "abstaining support" - you're placing yourself in a position diametrically opposed to progress. And if that truely is the IMT's position then naturally I could only conclude that the IMT collectively is a reactionary group.


We can't change that by showing them us acting like animals when a few cops show up.

So why not take part, and then avoid violence, like I did? Why denounce the entire thing from the safety of the internet? Why brandish all those who took part as street punks and hooligans and social scum? Why claim that those who suffered police brutality provoked the police and deserved it? Why make a mockery of young comrades being punched and kicked and hit with batons? It's one thing to denounce violence, it's entirely another to adopt such reactionary positions.

[AGITprop]

ugh. this conversation is over.

[Wanted Man]

ugh. this conversation is over.
Yes, go to your meeting to circlejerk over the collected works of Ted Grant. Punk.

[Black Dagger]

De Baron please refrain from being needlessly hostile in your responses - it's not called for and contributes nothing.

[Wanted Man]

De Baron please refrain from being needlessly hostile in your responses - it's not called for and contributes nothing.
Sorry. I shall be more respectful next time some guy runs away from a conversation after all his crap has been refuted.

Oh, and I'll also try to be nicer to those who denounce activism and act as apologists for the riot police. Clearly, their positions are a valid ideology within the wide left-wing spectrum.