Did you know that Cuba doesnt have the best medical health

[JoseM]

Did you know that Fidel justifies his revolution with his presumed successes in health and education, but according to the most recent statistics in the OMS, Cuba is in the position #5 in Latin America, behind Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, among others.

Did you know that in education Cuba is behind Chile, Argentina, Uruguay and Costa Rica, according to the UNESCO?. You can verify the statistics in the UNESCO and OMS on the Internet.

[Derar]

Thanx to the US Sanctions !

[Vladimir]

Yeah with the US sanctions i think coming 5th is pretty damn good.

[Nateddi]

A country which can be evaporated by an enemy 80 miles north of it, and still providing healthcare to everyone, still providing free education, a country who's life expectany rose 20 years during the first 35 years of socialist rule.

With America trying to overthrow and execute Fidel Castro on four different occasions, I am very fond of him for keeping his country going as the best place to live in 3rd world Latin America.



And please, stick to your cage, and think of new articles, not the same russia.com guff.

(Edited by Nateddi at 10:07 pm on May 1, 2002)

[elizquierdista]

JoseM, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but what you posted is total shit (seriously no offense). I'm from Argentina and education has deteriorated and is deteriorating quickly. I also keep in close contact with family in Uruguay, education there is atrocious compared to what it once was. I assure you Cuba is (in reality) ranked higher than Uruguay and Argentina.

Chile, however, I believe you are correct about.

[JoseM]

izquierdista, the goverments of argentina and uruguary and most of latin america suck because of their corrupt goverments, not because of capitalism or socialism, u and me know that we are poor because the prsidents stole the money and didnt administrated good our nation.
Cuba great healthcare and great education?
My ass. How many of you have talked with real cubans that escaped from Cuba?
None.
I have talked to 30 or more of them. Without counting the Miami cuban organizations where i have been.
Of course most of the people here read their information about Cuba in Cuba pro communist web pages, they read that and think its all truth.
Im very sure none of you know any cuban that escaped from Cuba.
None of you have minor idea of the misery that people in Cuba is living and then u come here claiming that Cuba is great. Talk to hispanics that really know then start talking.
Izquierdista, i bet ur 14 or 15 years old that dont know the real reasons why argentina is broke.
Argentina is broke due to her bad goverments, same with most of latin america.

[CheGuevara]

I also know that Costa Rica's education system is absolute shit. I worked with a large group of Costa Ricans at my summer job, and they were great guys, but they were pretty poorly educated. None of them knew any bits of languages other than Spanish, even ones who didn't come from rural schools, which the one guy told me didn't even bother to attempt to teach a foreign language. A couple of the guys had no idea what had been happening in Nicaragua the last 20 years, despite its direct effects on Costa Rica.

[Derar]

Quote: from JoseM on 8:26 am on May 2, 2002

Izquierdista, i bet ur 14 or 15 years old that dont know the real reasons why argentina is broke.
Argentina is broke due to her bad goverments, same with most of latin america.


Dont u know that The US has installed most of these bad governments ....... or r u just stupid ?

[PunkRawker677]

Great time to post! I just saw a documentary two nights ago called "world travel" (on history chanel II). This one episode was about Cuba. As of Jan something 2002, cuba has the best Education system out of south and central america. Argentina was ahead of them, but lost their footing thanks to the sad complications going on their now. And cuba as of that date as well had the best healthcare system in the western hemisphere.. period..

watch the history channel, read the REAL history book.. or better yet, get a life, and grab an education while your at it.

[EDIT] sorry, i didnt see you saying that none of us have talked to escaped cubans before. I'll say it again, as i said in another post, I LIVE IN MIAMI. its impossible to live in miami and not talk to anti-castro propaganda runners, well, unless your in some deep sleep or something. so, your arguments are boring and lame.. go away..

(Edited by PunkRawker677 at 3:03 pm on May 2, 2002)

[Acolombian]

Hey "Punk", you go away, YOUR arguments are lame.

I have a lot of Cuban friends and I've been to Cuba (and hope to never come back). People follow tourists like crazy trying to get a hold on some dollars. There are hookers (usually teenage girls, very educated I'm sure) near the entrances of every hotel. They always try to find a tourist and trick the security guard to get inside the hotels. Cuban nationals are not allowed inside the hotels unless you are actually working there. Can you imagine what that must be like, that in your own country you are inferior than any tourist! Inside hotels there are luxuries for foreigners than cubans can never dream of.

And stop putting all the blame Cuban's failure to the USA. How about the billions of dollars that Cuba received in aid from the former Soviet Union? It was a lot of money for such a small island. Castro refurnished his mansion.

Cuba is receiving free oil from Venezuela (they have a crazy president) and has a lot of relations with European and Latin American countries. Europeans just love to go there and spend their money. So Cuba is not that isolated as you might think.

Again, I invite everyone that thinks life in Cuba is so wonderful to go and live there themselves!!!

[CheGuevara]

Pinche puto del AUC, ¿a cuántos campesinos y sindicalistas ha matado hoy?

Yes, the tourist situation in Cuba is inexcusable.

Cuba has been partly isolated from other countries because of US pressure and laws.

For the most part, Cuba makes the best of what they have, constructing a very good, if not excellent, health care and education system, which is more than can be said for the USA.

[Smoking Frog II]

Yeah Man,
The reason Cubas so damn poor is 'cuz the damn USA cappies isolate Cuba in trade to fill their own goddamn pockets.

They still have airbases etc in Cuba though...

[truthseeker]

to fill the USA's pockets? the US is NOT making any money off of Cuba currently, there is an embargo right? i really doubt that dropping the embargos would actually fill the USA's pockets. and it's not like the USA's economy is depending on Cuba either.

[Ernest Everhard]

so the reason communist cuba is poor is because the capitalist US doesn't allow it to integrate itself into the world capitalist economy...

[PunkRawker677]

Acolombian -
i dont thing i need to go away. If i read correctly, which is a skill i assume u lack, the top of this page says "Internationalist Forum for Che Admirers".. not "people who wish to intrude on the leftists with bullshit accusations". if you dont like my arguments, go to hell.

"There are hookers (usually teenage girls, very educated I'm sure) near the entrances of every hotel. "
Funny, last time i went to New York, there were about ninety hookers on every street, and about 200 hundred near every hotel. Prostitution is not a problem associated with any economic system, its a worldwide problem.

"How about the billions of dollars that Cuba received in aid from the former Soviet Union? " Cuba was doing pretty well then! but hey? didnt the Soviet Union collapse? i suppose they have a secret bank and are still giving money to cuba.. PERHAPS!

"Cuba is receiving free oil from Venezuela (they have a crazy president) and has a lot of relations with European and Latin American countries. Europeans just love to go there and spend their money. So Cuba is not that isolated as you might think. "
Still cuba cannot trade with any country who is interested in trading with the U$ as well (which limits their trading options - see Canadian trading post). The also cannot buy any product made up of more than 20% US material, even furthur limiting their trading oppurtunities.

For your last question, why dont i go to cuba? well i already explained that in another post. My family is here, the portugese side of my family, and they wouldnt come with me (my cuban side would) so i have no plans of leaving my family. You see, i see family and community being worth more than the dollar. Can you say the same?

[Domino]

Yeah, man, besides, I saw a documental in which Cuban hookers say that they wouldn't leave Cuba for anything in the world. They love Cuba.

My cousin just left to Cuba, he is half mexican (I'm mexican) and half yankee. He went once to Cuba and fell in love with it and with a Cuban chick, now he left to live over there with her.

It's obvious that JoseM and the colombian guy don't know shit about Cuba. But it's funny, they ACTUALLY spend their time posting in a message board where they don't belong. Oh well, nothing new really, just useless cappies who like kissing Uncle Sam's ass.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I can't beleive that communism has proven to be be a failed, oprressive, stalled system over and over, but there are a still proponents of the hindering system.
I think there are a few points we are missing here. I think most of us can agree than
neither pure communism nor pure capitalism exists. The present systems that
contemporary empires are based on lie on a spectrum between the two theoretical
ideologies. Also, we could argue all day about the acadmic principles of each system,
but real world data proves that Capitalism is the much better system. The
free-marketcapitalist system that America represents has produced the strongest
economy that has ever existed, and the best standard of living ever. Even America's
poor live relatively well. This is a measurable fact. Notions of exploitation of thirld world
countries for the most part amount to nothing more than making excuses for nations that
have not been as industrious and ingeneous (and to some extent lucky) as the US has
been. I mean, please, exploitation? What do you call standing in line 4 hours for a loaf of
bread? Killing 50 million people (Stalin)? What more needs to be said??? Another
consideration is that capitalism encourages individual innovation and acheivement. This
principle is proven in reality in thatthe vast majority of technological innovation that has
benefitted humanity in the last 150 years has come out of the United States. This
includes both the computer you are looking at and the internet you are communicationg
through. Also, we discuss exploitation of smaller countries by the U.S, but fail to address
the fact that the US is by far the most humane and alturistic country on earth, both in
terms of dollars spent (debt relief and direct monetary aid) and in people and
organizations contrributing service and aid abroad. When there is a major naturalk
disaster, what is the only country to contribute money and resources to assist in aid? The
USA. I cant remember a time when the Soviets, Cuba, or China contributed to foreign
relief of any kind. Finally, immigration. The USA has quite a challenge accomodating the
thousands of immigrants (worker-class, mind you) that enter its borders daily. Many of
these people are risking both their and their family's life just for an opportunity to get in.
Why? Because capitalist "workers" still live much better than communist or socialist
"workers". Needless to say, China, Cuba, and the then Soviet union (failed
system,remember?) had no immigration problem. Their border control budgets were
allocated to keep people in!!! Its a self explanatory phenomenon!!! So, we could argue
academic and philisophical principals all day, but real world data and behavior makes it
self evident that the American form of Capitalism is by far the best system going today.
Also, I have been pretty much discussing economic aspects of capitalism, to say
nothing of the personal freedoms and the opportunity given to Amercian citizens to
pursue success and what makes them happy. These fundamental principles are, to say
the least, severely hindered by centrist governments. Look at real world activity, and
you see the best real world system.

[Domino]

US is by far the most humane and alturistic country on earth

WTF? That is a joke, right? If it is, it really made me laugh :biggrin:

[Moskitto]

Chile, Argentina, Uruguay

Yes, that might be because those 3 countries are actually richer than the rest of South America anyway.


Cuban nationals are not allowed inside the hotels unless you are actually working there. Can you imagine what that must be like, that in your own country you are inferior than any tourist!

It's the same in Egypt, Except the guards outside are armed with AK-47s and shoot at the first sign of trouble.

[wildflower8]

Is that justifiable though??? Would you want that to happen to you in your country?

[Kingnothing]

I just have to say that even if it is true (which i doubt) that argentina (where i was born and where i live), chile, and uruguay have better health care and education, the differnece is that in cuba, it is free for anyone,whilst in the countries you mentioned as being bettter off than cuba it is only available for those that have the money to pay for it. So, the poor majorities have no access to health care other than public health care which due to massive privatisation since the 1980´s are in quite a pathetic state. I have been to public hospitals in argentina and they lack everything, i have also been to public hospitals in cuba and even with the imperialist blockade thay are better equipped than the ones in argentina.

[BatistaNationalista]

Jose you are so right.

Where are your sources, I really would like to read the publicatoins!

Fidel provided bare education just to make himself look good infront of the world, and it is filled with leftist propaganda. Shame on everyone who supports him!

[elizquierdista]

JoseM, I apologize in advance for the length.

I never said "great healthcare", I said in reality the education in Cuba is better than in the south. I don't say this because I just hear it and repeat it. I've met a great deal many Cubans. Among most of them, the "refugees". As well as those who remain loyal to the current government. What I've heard from the far right is "Hay que tumbar a Fidel. Democracia en la isla." Then from the far left, "Esos son come mierdas, vendidos." What I've heard from those in the middle is both communism and capitalism are the same shit.
I believe Cuba, like many countries has its pros and cons. What I've heard from most of the middle and that's who I try to represent [with SOME leniency to the left]. Let me tell you something, I hear and see more news from Cuban "refugees" than I do from communist sources. You're right, there is misery in Cuba, as there is in all countries. But Everyone in Cuba, including the miserable and homeless get fed.

You say you know most Cubans, and that most say Cuba has bad this and bad that, if this were true Castro wouldn't be in power.

On the issue of southern America, you are PARTIALLY correct. It is because of corruption, but then again let's not forget about the dictatorships that ruined our countries. Who were those dictatorships supported by? The so many coups. Who supported them? Who helped them? I understand that our politicians are to be blamed, but what about the U.S.? You think U.S. government is any better than ours. They're just as corrupt, they just have more money, so it isn't as obvious (the corruption).

Chile that has an amazing economy, education, healthcare, etc.. But it would be 100x better off, had the Americans not perceived Salvador Allende as a “threat”, and I quote “more dangerous than Fidel Castro” because he was voted socialist president democratically. After which they helped Pinochet take power and the south’s darkest times came to be, with the torture, disappearances and assassinations of anyone suspected of being left=wing or a sympathizer of communism-socialism.

Between the so called neo-liberalism that has completely annihilated our economies, the "Chicago Boys" who continue to flourish, the IMF that commends us when Argentina is selling everything and leaving nothing to be the PBI (producto bruto interno). Then when the IMF and U.S. say they’ll help us they always add strings. Before I post something or state something, I make sure I know what I’m talking about, unless I’m not positive what I say is correct I don’t put it up. I many time do research before posting unless its a subject I’m familiar with.

To correct you I’m 16, had you caught me 2 years ago, I’d be on your side. But I’ve bettered and now care more about people and general welfare than about myself.

Kingdonothing: He is correct when speaking of Chile. It is a country that in 4 years is expected to join the 1st world, provided the crisis in Argentina doesn't leak over.

[Moskitto]

Is that justifiable though??? Would you want that to happen to you in your country?


No it isn't justifiable, however I am demonstrating to the poster that the problem is not a communist problem since it exists in a non-communist country. Infact, Egypt is the second biggest reciever of US military aid.

[wildflower8]

I like your point! I agree
~Xochitl

[Guest]

According to the Guinness world records Cuba has one of the best Literacy rates in the world behind Sweden and varios other european countries.
- I don't see the good old US of A in the top 5 at all mate! Must be all that "american wealth" we hear so much about. ey.
p.s Cuba also has one of the worlds best completely free heath services.

[Capitalist Fighter]

What i don't understand and see as a contributing factor to the failure of communist economics is if every service and business is nationalised, meaning its owned solely by the state and does not allow private ownership, then how will the state be able to provide for a country of presumably millions all its services and resources whilst paying for them all with no assitance from the people. Free enterprise of businesses and factories that produce consumer products allow the state in a capitalist nation to provide for the people the necessities such as health, education and housing. Under communism the state pays for every service which intail results in lack of money for a range of services meaning low quality and bad results. Free enterprise frees up this clog in the system by allowing individuals with their own money to pay and provide for society's demands and consequently encourages the state to spend its money on the few and necessary needs of humanity. Communists states cannot simply support thousands of public businesses and enterprises. They jeopardise quality and quality.
Free enterprise serves as the helping hand to the government in providing the people with the best of both worlds; consumer products and those indispensable to ones survival.

[Smoking Frog II]

that would be the evil empire's fault.

[anti machine]

Jose, you are a dumbass. Take your rhetoric somewhere else.

[Apache]

I find it truly pathetic how Cuba is touted as a "Worker's Paradise" when everybody that can make a raft is trying to get off the island.
The first chance the population gets, Castro will swing from the end of a rope and his lieutenants will be slaughtered.

[Guest]

Everyone?

Perhaps 00.5% of the population per year.

And do you think that few has nothing to lean on in Miami? They all have filthy rich relatives to bring them into the bourgeois culture without any work. Do you honestly think that a cuban who has nothign in the US waiting for them will flee? Say good bye to free healthcare, say good bye to cheap housing. Go to the US and work minimum wage until you die. Some life.

[concerned]

Guest,

A lot more than 0.5%. Others don't do it for fear (it is quite dangerous) not precisely because they love it there.

Many cubans who have nothing in the US waiting for them have fleed,...
Yes guest, and say goodbye to the cheap housing, nobody really likes to live in cheap old houses about to fall apart...
And guest, you don't necessarily have to work for minimum wage until you die, there are many other options if you have a little bit of brains and are willing to put up the extra effort. For a narrow minded socialist like you though, that probably would be the only option.

[Guest]

A big deal is made of Cubans fleeing the country to the U$ simply because it is Communist. However, if the people of every country of the world had the same freedom to enter in the U$ as Cubans do ("if you make the shore, you're allowed to stay"), you'd see many more people from all over the world trying to get in.

Most capitalist countries have worse emigration than Cuba, including 1st world countries like Britain and Ireland.

[Guest]

And I'm not sure if this has or hasn't been mentioned yet, but Cuban has a lower infant mortality rate than the U$. And that IS according to the UN.

[Guest]

Oh, and Cubans have a higher life expectancy than Yanks.

Now why is it that a third world country has better health figures than a first world one like the U$?

[Guest]

from Capitalist Imperial
the US is by far the most humane and alturistic country on earth, both in terms of dollars spent (debt relief and direct monetary aid)Actually, the opposite is true. The U$ gives less foreign aid than in any other country in the world, both as a percentage of its GDP and in actual monetary value.

[concerned]

Guest, if life is so great in Cuba, why don't you go live there? Maybe you'll even manage to get the free healthcare, at the expense of living a shitty boring life without many freedoms.

Yes, I can totally believe the cubans have higher life expentacy than Americans. If Americans wouldn't drive so much, they too could improve their life expectancy, there wouldn't be as many accidents. If you lived a boring sheltered life as most Cubans you maybe can improve your life expentacy, but at what price???

And the US gives billions in foreign aid each year, get informed.

[Michael De Panama]

Costa Rica has a terrible education system. Whatever statistic you got this shit from is probably inaccurate. I promise you.

[jimr]

Quote: from Moskitto on 9:45 pm on May 6, 2002

Is that justifiable though??? Would you want that to happen to you in your country?


No it isn't justifiable, however I am demonstrating to the poster that the problem is not a communist problem since it exists in a non-communist country. Infact, Egypt is the second biggest reciever of US military aid.


I know that Israel is in a seperate category, but i thought Turkey and columbia recieved more aid.

[Apache]

Quote: from Guest on 11:15 am on June 19, 2002
Oh, and Cubans have a higher life expectancy than Yanks.

Now why is it that a third world country has better health figures than a first world one like the U$?


CUBA:
Infant mortality rate: 7.39 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)
Life expectancy at birth: total population: 76.41 years
male: 74.02 years
female: 78.94 years (2001 est.)

USA:
Infant mortality rate: 6.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)
Life expectancy at birth: total population: 77.26 years
male: 74.37 years
female: 80.05 years (2001 est.)

From these numbers I would say you are DEAD wrong!

Oh that is right, you are a commie and can not help lying.

[Apache]

In all fairness, Cuba could improve their numbers if Castro stopped killing his own people.
22 Feb. 1999 Houston Chronicle (editorial by Agustin Blazquez): 97,000 deaths caused by Castro. This number seems to have originally come from an unpublished study by Armando Lago http://www.nocastro.com/archives/gohome.htm, which now apparently estimates a death toll of 116,730-119,730, the bulk of whom (85,000) disappeared at sea. http://www.cubanueva.com/cubahoy/politica/...-REVOLUCION.htm (http://www.cubanueva.com/cubahoy/politica/1211_COSTOHUMANO-REVOLUCION.htm)

(Edited by Apache at 2:29 am on June 20, 2002)