libertarianism?

[truthseeker]

i'm quite fond of libertarian principles b/c it limits govt. i'm curious as to what socialists etc. think about it. any input is appreciated.

[guerrillaradio]

Yeah I'm a libertarian. I refuse to let my standards and lifestyles be dicated by anyone, apart from when it affects other people. Fuck all republican anti-abortionist pro-capital punishment bigots...

[BOZG]

You are against capital punishment because it's murder yet you're pro-abortion even though that's murder too.

[kidicarus20]

That's the whole point, abortion is a mothers choice, and it's not murder.

typical right wing fascists can't tell the difference between a fetus that has no brainwaves and a living person.
When you right-wingers jerk off when a black man is executed do those count as people too? cause certainly you start to develop at the sperm not at conception ('cause sperm develops then you fertalize an egg).

[Ernest Everhard]

misconceptions are funny,

did you know that just as many elected democrats are in favor of capital punishment as republicans.

Furthermore if you're a libertarian, then your political inclinations (within the american context) are more 'republican' than anything else, except perhaps libertarian.


Roe v wade was instituted by a republican appointed court as well.

[BOZG]

A fetus is still a living thing whether it can survive on its own or not.

And I'm not a typical right-wing fascist.

[truthseeker]

i don't like abortion nor do i like capital punishment either. seems a bit barbaric and "2 wrongs don't make a right."
1.) a difficult resolution i have come to is allowing abortion so long as the government does NOT intervene (programs, taxes etc.). maybe this is a better more neutral stance to take w/o having to force others to take part in it directly? what i mean to say is, abortion can be lawful BUT NO tax dollars go to funding it therefore the 2 parties can be more satisfied and a compromise can be met. not that we'll ever see anything remotely close to this in our lifetime.
2.) i don't think that libertarians are particularly "right wing fascists." for example, with gwbush we've seen the largest federal budget in our nation's history. that's not necessarily "right wing." "right wingers" are for small government traditionally yes? it seems that libertarian principles really don't take sides politically on being on the "right" or "left." they are capitalists BUT they desire NO government intervention. your traditional republican desires the opposite (government intervention in business endeavors) just like the usual democrat... socialists intend the same thing yes?

[reagan lives]

Well, I'm glad to hear that you're all libertarians, because that means that you must be pro-free market.

[Nateddi]

Libertarianism and the free-market is an American phenomenon.

I agree (as all the other socialists I know of) that personal issues such as abortion, sex, drugs, victimless crimes, etc should have minimal control by the government. However I am anti-free market because of the inevitable harm that deregulation brings.

Truthseeker, libertarianism (American that is) is extremely appealing, however a complete free market will end up in chaos. If you are a young pothead who thinks they are geniouses for advocating the government out of your life so that is why you like them, think again, the economic idea of libertarianism will ultimately lead to the greatest corruption and poverty we have ever seen.

[Moskitto]

"The Soviet Union's 'massive crimes' are a big myth" -antitrot

Yes, that's why it's generally advisable to avoid making posts which are such as these.

[reagan lives]

What do you mean?

[Astrofro2001]

Though unrelated to the theme of Socialism vs. Capitalism, what are all your thoughts on abortion. I am pro-choice personally. In my opinion a baby isnt able to live on its own till it is in the thrid TM. Before this wouldnt this make the baby a parasite hurting the mother, causing her to get sick, eat more, and change from her normal daily rutein. Most people I have talked to who are pro-life invision these babies being murdered while in actual fact it is nothing like that. It is a mass of cells that has no conciousness.

[libereco]

I'm a socialist libertarian...and I despise the Libertarian party in the USA.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from libereco on 11:48 pm on May 2, 2002
I'm a socialist libertarian...and I despise the Libertarian party in the USA.

Thats exactly what I am, I didn't really mension that in my post.

[truthseeker]

1.) Nateddi: so what about Hong Kong? is this an american phenomenon? this is the purest free market we've seen as far as i know. hardly any taxes and things are booming.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-01-99.html
2.) there will still be government, just limited government to do what it's supposed to do. it's not as if labor unions will be outlawed, they will still exist and be as powerful as they were before, perhaps more? why wouldn't they?
3.) please tell me how "the economic idea of libertarianism will ultimately lead to the greatest corruption and poverty we have ever seen."??? you said it will, but not the hows and whys. i'm honestly interested in knowing and understanding.
4.) Moskitto: refrain from posts such as these? isn't this a 'forum' (i.e. public discussion)? so only people who actually agree with socialism can post here? this is the "cappies tolerated here only" area right? i see nothing wrong with this thread, it's perfectly valid and i'm trying to figure out socialim's reasoning behind a controlled market as opposed to a free one. you're saying avoid discussion, avoid discussion. this is a perfectly valid argument. explain yourself please. basically what you said was "no, because i said so."
btw - i am not a young pot head and i dont intend to come off as a snott, i really want to understand.

[truthseeker]

socialist libertarian? explain. how is this possible?

[Nateddi]

I was referring to the libertarianism as free market, which is only known in america

[truthseeker]

but america isn't experiencing a "libertarian free market." what we are experiencing is a govt. oppressed market (regs, taxes taxes taxes)

[Jurhael]

Libertarian Socialism used to be a redundancy until it was co-opted by the Libertarian Party USA.

It's basically the social freedoms combined with the economic tenets of socialism and I'm not talking about a "command economy" either. Of course there'd be a free market, but they would not be able to run amok, the way US Libertarians propose.

"but america isn't experiencing a "libertarian free market." what we are experiencing is a govt. oppressed market (regs, taxes taxes taxes) "

Oppressed market? That is crap. Regulations exist, so that business cannot put poison into a river in order to save money, or hairs in food because hair nets would cost too much. Businesses only care about making money first and foremost. All else is a disctraction. In a US Lib marker, there would be workers worked for many hours for little pay while prices would be as high as possible.

It's a hamster wheel now in the US. It would be worse under US Libertarianism.

BTW, corporations barely pay any taxes because of loopholes and coporate pork. And taxes pay for numerous government services, much of which are not as worthless as the US libertarians want you to believe.

[truthseeker]

good points, ones i've often wondered about. do you have any references? i dont think human rights would automatically be flushed though. i also dont think businesses would just go ahead and pollute whatever and however much.
and yes, i do think america's "free-market" is oppressed by red tape and taxes. this would be straight across the board tax cuts for everybody (so for these "loopholes" big businesses really wouldn't experience much difference in the first place). see, i'm not talking big businesses. i am talking about the average citizen, we are oppressed by the government via taxes and told what we can buy and what we can't. so why can't the USDA be privatized? it'll be a heck of a lot more efficient and reliable. government has the monopoly. why do you think people would make very little pay? what's the minimum wage?
"And taxes pay for numerous government services, much of which are not as worthless as the US libertarians want you to believe." so what's your favorite government program? i think we could do w/o many of them. bring it on.. :)

[Ernest Everhard]

just curious about the roots and tenets or principles of libertarian socialism. explain that to me.

[truthseeker]

Jurhael: i've given your statement some thought. yes, i do think the US is an oppressed market. some instances almost 40% of a person's pay check is deducted due to taxes. in effect, that is oppression on the market.
as you stated regs are there so that poisons won't be found in our water and hairs in our food and high prices on hair nets. who would buy such things anyhow? who would continually go to a restaraunt that has hairs in their food? do we really need the govt. to tell us and watch out for us about hairs in our food. i believe a free market will naturally weed out bad business. if prices are too high then who buys the product? that's not good business and customers don't buy the product. that happens now even. if you say the US LP (libertarian party) market wouldn't work then why is the hong kong market doing so well which has the least govt. intervention and also ideal to LP principles? i can name several defunct programs that the govt. is involved in: amtrak, the usps, social security, the irs. by estimating what you said, what the US has now is exactly what you want. i don't see a difference yet. also for human rights i see no reason the ACLU or the NAACP or any labor unions would dissolve at all, they would keep doing the same thing that they're doing now and they're private organizations (NAACP is private, yes?)
the biggest problem i foresee is protection of our environment. i figure private organizations can buy up land rather than the govt. doing it.

(Edited by truthseeker at 3:59 pm on May 3, 2002)

[Nateddi]

Truthseeker, everyone's goals is profits

If the government didn't regulate, cigarette companies would push thier "nicotine is not addictive" shit over airwaves while making huge profits, they would market to children, etc.

Monopolies would form, there will be no regulatoin on mergers. Soon Microsoft will be making your socks. People will be paid shit again, and monopolies would limit (if not eliminate) their choise, so you really couldn't choose to not buy from bad business. Even right now with no laws on third world sweatshop labor, you really can't find a shirt that is not made by what I consider bad business. A working deregulated society is a complete utopian dream.

[Ernest Everhard]

everyone's goal isn't profit, money is simply a convinient representation of value. Everyone's goal according to capitalism is to maximize their own utilities. To this end, things other than money come into play, and capitalism allows for this to happen.

As for microsoft making your socks, they wouldn't it would be economically unfeasible for them to do such a thing. they would probably incur more costs than revenue.

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

Quote: from Nateddi on 4:13 pm on May 3, 2002
Truthseeker, everyone's goals is profits

If the government didn't regulate, cigarette companies would push thier "nicotine is not addictive" shit over airwaves while making huge profits, they would market to children, etc.

Monopolies would form, there will be no regulatoin on mergers. Soon Microsoft will be making your socks. People will be paid shit again, and monopolies would limit (if not eliminate) their choise, so you really couldn't choose to not buy from bad business. Even right now with no laws on third world sweatshop labor, you really can't find a shirt that is not made by what I consider bad business. A working deregulated society is a complete utopian dream.

I could not agree more. libertarianism is basicly anarchy. Here is good link www.mp3.com/agb look for "why opponents of socialism are dumb".