Great Guardian article

[spartan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/13/usa.georgebush

This is a geat article comparing 70's era Socialist Czechoslovakia to the modern day US as part of the former Tennis player Martina Navratilova's regaining of her Czech citizenship after she lost it when she defected from the former Czechoslovakia to the US in 1975 at the age of 18.

[Joby]

So Navratilova is just making a political statement. Good for her.

As for the article:



Czechoslovakia, 1975: Despite widespread discontent with the oppressive Husak regime, a 1974 study finds active support for the government in 15% of the population, identified as pensioners, party bureaucrats, careerists, "parasites", extremist ideologues and persons involved in the Stalinist repression who fear that liberalisation might force them to account for their crimes.
US, 2008: George Bush's approval ratings generally hover around 30%, although one recent poll put it as low as 19%.


Yeah......Right:



A program adopted in April 1968 set guidelines for a modern, humanistic socialist democracy that would guarantee, among other things, freedom of religion, press, assembly, speech, and travel; a program that, in Dubček's words, would give socialism "a human face (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face)." After 20 years of little public participation, the population gradually started to take interest in the government, and Dubček became a truly popular national figure.......

On the night of August 20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_20) - August 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_21), 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968), Eastern Bloc armies from five Warsaw Pact countries, Soviet Union, Bulgaria,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia#_note-2) Poland, Hungary, and East Germany, invaded the ČSSR. That night, 200,000 Warsaw Pact troops and 2,000 tanks entered the country.

And where did much of the intelligentsia go following this crackdown?


The invasion was followed by a wave of emigration, unseen before and stopped shortly after. An estimated 70,000 fled immediately, and the total eventually reached 300,000.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring#_note-25) Most emigrants were highly qualified. Western countries allowed these people to stay and work without complications.[36 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring#_note-26)



Czechoslovakia, 1975: Despite an increased standard of living and the widespread availability of material goods, consumerism is failing to placate a population fed up with draconian political controls.
US, 2008: Despite a rise in the cost of living, consumerism continues to placate a population largely oblivious to the curtailment of its freedoms.


What curtailment of our freedom's? Excuse me, but passing a law saying that our government can listen to some phone calls between people in and out of the country to the complete lack of any political freedoms in the Czech Republic is ridiculous.

I'm not saying I'm for the Patriot Act, or HR 1955. I am saying that comparing US 2008 to any Eastern Bloc nation in this sense is ridiculous.

The only loss Americans are forced to experience involves time at the airport.



Czechoslovakia, 1975: Growth of "net material product" is at an annual average of 5.7%, exceeding the target rate of 5.1% set out in the fifth Five-Year Plan. Full employment.
US, 2008: Energy Information Administration this week predicted negative growth in the two forthcoming financial quarters, the official definition of recession. 101,000 private-sector jobs were lost in February alone.


Wow. Full employment.

I wonder why the Guardian didn't mention Czechoslovakia's complete economic collapse 15 years later? Or the millions of US $ going into the Eastern Bloc?

And 101,000 jobs is just a blip on the radar; what's important is the direction we're going.



Czechoslovakia, 1975: The granting of visas to foreigners is "arbitrary", with denials justified under the "defence of national security", according to dissidents.
US, 2008: The American government uses the Patriot Act to bar entry to foreign visitors on the basis of ideology, according to the American Civil Liberties Union.


Haha what a ridiculous comparison.

Czecholsavakia wouldn't allow anyone to leave (like a Prison), while the US won't allow just anyone in (like a courthouse).



Czechoslovakia, 1975: Torture, though not officially sanctioned, has become a covert tool of state policy.
US, 2008: Torture officially sanctioned.


So they're going to compare a Soviet Gulag with Gitmo....More exageration.

[pusher robot]

So they're going to compare a Soviet Gulag with Gitmo....More exageration.
Yes, it's the usual sophistry that utterly fails to convince anyone who isn't already a true believer. Even if these comparisons were legitimate, it ignores the reality that people would still support one side over the other for other completely unrelated reasons, and hectoring them with these accusations of hypocrisy only serves to highlight the fact that you don't understand them.

[Joby]

Yes, it's the usual sophistry that utterly fails to convince anyone who isn't already a true believer. Even if these comparisons were legitimate, it ignores the reality that people would still support one side over the other for other completely unrelated reasons, and hectoring them with these accusations of hypocrisy only serves to highlight the fact that you don't understand them.

It seems like they're (your average strapping pinko) so devoted to this ideology (or whatever the hell they say they subscribe to) that they're unwilling to make an honest comparison.

It's "We're right" and therefore every argument must be utterly distorted.

"We're going to judge you by this standard, but judge ourselves by another."