This is in response of CAPITALIST calling Che a terrorist -

[andresG]

Para el CAPITALISTA que quiere desacreditar al Che Guevara:

San Ernesto, fue uno de los seres mas bondadosos que han venido a este mundo. Nunca quiso nada para si mismo, y siendo un medico, nunca explotó su profesión. Mas bien, dedicó sus *conocimientos en ayudar al prójimo. Su gran preocupación fueron siempre los humildes, los desposeídos, los sin nada, los sin patria, los hambrientos, los de abajo. Su misión fue muy parecida a la del mismo Jesucristo. Brindó amor, consuelo y esperanza aún a costa de su propia vida.

To the CAPITALIST who wants to discredit Che Guevara:

Saint Ernesto, was one of the most generous people to ever come to this planet. He never wanted anything for himself, and being a doctor, he did not exploit his profession. Instead, he used his knowledge to help the people. His greatest worry was always about the meek, *the ones who had everything taken from them, the ones with nothing at all, the people with no land or country, the starving, the oppressed. His mision was very similar to that of Jesus Christ himself. He offered love, comfort and hope in risk of his very life.

[Ernest Everhard]

and he killed lots of people in a ruthless extra judicial function, regardless of the justification or lack thereof, its the truth.

[queen of diamonds]

okay, someone help me out....who said what about che guevara?

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Ernest Everhard on 4:58 pm on April 27, 2002
and he killed lots of people in a ruthless extra judicial function, regardless of the justification or lack thereof, its the truth.


He killed soldiers and made the lifes of so many people better......

[red senator]

Quote: from Ernest Everhard on 11:58 am on April 27, 2002
and he killed lots of people in a ruthless extra judicial function, regardless of the justification or lack thereof, its the truth.


And how many died just because America thinks it is their job to police the world and fight communism? (think vietnam, korea, war on drugs, afghanistan)

[andresG]

Quote: from queen of diamonds on 12:59 pm on April 27, 2002
okay, someone help me out....who said what about che guevara?


topic: Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Jay-Z wearing Che sweater?

In this discussion CAPITALIST calls Comandante Ernesto Che Guevara a terrorist. I felt I had to create this new topic when i read what he wrote. I am still waiting for his response.

[Ernest Everhard]

Did I mention america? No...

What I'm saying is that if you hold America responsible for its actions, which you obviously do, then you must hold Che responsible for his crimes.

According to what has been cited in this board as a terribly che friendly biography, G.Casteneda's companero, Guevarra was responsible for nearly 500 executions, soldiers and dissenters, in the name of marxism-leninism. I'm not saying America's actions aren't bad sometimes, but that if you consider them bad, how can you not consider Che a murder as well.

[reagan lives]

Moral relativism is an amazing thing, Ernest.

[Fires of History]

Moral relativism? lol...

Amerikkka kills and wages war to ensure the survival of its imperialistic crusade, to ensure profit for years to come, and to extend its already intrusive commercial empire.

Did Che kill for profit? Did Che kill to extend any empire?

No.

He killed, yes, but to free a people enslaved to capitali$m, oppressed by foreign investors, and exploited for profit.

What you twits call a 'murderer' and a 'terrorist' in Che, I call a Freedom Fighter. 'Terrorist' is usually applied to people who threaten the status quo and the powerful...

Simple minds...

(Edited by Fires of History at 7:28 pm on April 27, 2002)

[Ernest Everhard]

Well intentions, as we all know from the case of stalin or that of international communism in the 20th century, is of nil importance when compared to results. Che might have intended to help people, but let us not forget that he was a hardline communist, an authoritarian, and personally responsible for hundreds of death.
Is he to be idealized because he intended to help people, not anymore than the US should be idealized for intending to help people by preventing the yoke of soviet communist imperialism to smother them.
The one difference there is between the actions and intentions of the man known as che, and the USA, is that America has actually helped people, while Che was responsible for throwing a nation of 12 million into a state of mass poverty governed under a proto-fascists.

[reagan lives]

Thanks to FoH for providing a wonderful definition of moral relativism.

[Fires of History]

What's funny about this whole equation is that you guys call Che a 'murderer' yet happily wave your stars and bars. Now that is funny!

Actor Turned President,

Are you saying morality is 'objective'? Let me guess, the bible has all the answers?

EDIT: The U$ is primarily 'wrong' because it couldn't live with the very crap it dishes out.

(Edited by Fires of History at 10:07 pm on April 27, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Most of the murders shortly after the Cuban Revolution were ordered by Castro actually, although Guevara was very ruthless. I guess it's the old saying, "if you wanna make an omlette, you gotta break some eggs"...not that I'm supporting murder or anything....

Picking up on the whole terrorist/freedom fighter debate, i think the key to the difference is in the names. A TERRORist is someone who uses terror in an attempt to achieve what they desire (ie bombing embassies, flying planes in Trade Centers) whereas a freedom fighter is someone who attempts to overthrow a system which s/he sees as oppressive (ie plotting revolution in Cuban jungles...am I being too specific here??). I think Guevara falls into the latter catergory myself, but hey, I'm open to debate...

[elizquierdista]

Hey, comrades! It seems these imperialist bastards are mad at those great ones that broke their control over the universe. They speak of freedom and democracy.
I ask freedom and democracy for whom?
Everyone in Cuba gets fed, does everyone in the U.S.?
I apologize, I've seemed to stray from topic. While you're adding more terrorists to your long list. I'd like to name freedom fighters and GREAT leaders which you'll surely put on it;
Salvador Allende, Ernesto "Che" Guevara, Lenin, Tito, Trotsky, and any many more........

[liderDeFARC]

Ernest , read what you are saying, ok? U$ actually helping? HA! and then you woke up......

The people you are talking about must be its richass few...... I mean that is greedy. Andres its very true, all that Che did was to help others, putting others before him. Lets see, opposite of what the U$ does, everything they do will profit them. Why do you call help what they argued with the Soviets?
like the u$ isnt responsible for millions of deaths.
CHE was not a terrorist, i didnt know killing soldiers is considered terrorism.

Foh i feel your pain... i know how hard it is to post here.... to be here. we'll come through this argument!
Andres i would like to know more about what you think of the relation between CHE and Jesus, interesting.

[andresG]

Parece que Ernest Everhard, habla con un libro de texto en la mano y conoce poco acerca de lo que es un revolución. Quiero informarle que toda revolución tiene sus ejecuciones despues de que se ha consolidado. Las mas famosas de las revoluciones fueron la Revolucion Francesa y la Revolucion Rusa y fueron numerosas las ejecuciones en ambas. Los ejecutados por la Revolucion Cubana por Castro y El Che y compañia fueron los tiranos y torturadores del régimen de Fulgencio Batista y los que se oponian a que el pueblo de Cuba fuera dueño de su propio destino. Para su informacion, Ernest Everhard, actualmente está ocurriendo la mas mortal de las revoluciones. La revolucion económica llamada globalización, encabezada por los grandes poderes económicos del mundo y liderado por la llamada gran democracia Americana, quienes con sus politicas asesinas estan matando de hambre a medio mundo.


It seems that Ernest Everhard speaks while holding a Social Studies schoolbook in his hand and knows little about what a revolution is. I want to inform you that every revolution has its executions after coming into power. The most famous of all revolutions have been the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution, which each had numerous executions. The ones executed in the Cuban Revolution, by Castro, El Che, and others were the tyrants and torturers of Fulgencio Batista's regime and those who were opposed to the Cuban people being the owners of their destiny. Ernest Everhard, for your information, right at this moment one of the most deadly of all revolutions is occuring. It is the economic revolution called globalization. Which is being headed by the great economic powers of the world and led by the so-called great american democracy,which with there murderous politics is killing half the world of starvation.

[armed dready]

che a terrorist???? don't make me laugh bush and sharon are the terrorist,and all that support them are terrorist sympathysers!!!!!!!!! CHE VIVA!!!!!!!!

[DiegoV]

Ernesto Che guevara COMANDANTE, filantropo del pensamiento politico, Ideologo de la lucha inteligente contra el opresor de turno, constructor de estrategias de orden social, lider y maestro de cuna, con el carisma de los grandes que te permiten hasta ahora tener un lugar fijo en la historia de los hombres grandes y buenos, ser sin fronteras de origen todaspartes y gentilicio mundano, tu vida es nuestro compromiso y tus sueños nuestros objetivos. COMANDANTE GLORIA POR SIEMPRE A TU PENSAMIENTO POPULAR.

[Xvall]

What are you letting them bother you. Face it, no matter how many debates we win, they're always going to turn to the "Stalin and Mao are Evil!" defense. Let them think what they want, who cares if their views are clouded.

- Drake Dracoli

[Ernest Everhard]

who said anything about stalin or mao?

[RedCeltic]

I quote Robert Baum Associate professor, religious studies at Iowa State who said the following:

"Terrorism is a tactic chosen by desperate people who feel powerless and excluded. It has been used by groups that we are sympathetic to, like the Sons of Liberty in the American Revolution as well as, in horrendous ways, by the followers of Osama Bin Laden."

[andresG]

I see that CAPITALIST still hasn't responded. What a shame!

[Capitalist]

Che Guevara = Foreign, Communist Invader of Cuba and Bolivia.

Che Guevara = National Bank President of Fidel's Cuba = Ruined Cuban Economy = Embargo on All American Goods.

The USA didn't start the embargo, Che Guevara started the Cuban Embargo.

Che Guevara led more than 600 people to the firing squads, including children under the age of 15. One witness account claims that Che Guevara sent a 14 year old boy to the firing squad for stealing food from his guerilla unit.

Guerilla Warfare = Terrorism

Che Guevara = Man of Hatred
Che Guevara = Fidel Castro Pawn
Che Guevara = Foreign Argentina Invader
Che Guevara = Economic Ignorance
Che Guevara = Exterminator of Innocent Cuban & African Lives
Che Guevara = Rash Judgement without Evidence - You are Guilty (evidence not necessary)

[Hayduke]

Che Guevara = Foreign, Communist Invader of Cuba and Bolivia.
And feed the people from a tyran
Che Guevara = National Bank President of Fidel's Cuba = Ruined Cuban Economy = Embargo on All American Goods.
Its bull che did that.... he did a pretty dam good job on the economics a well know fact.

The USA didn't start the embargo, Che Guevara started the Cuban Embargo.

Che Guevara led more than 600 people to the firing squads, including children under the age of 15. One witness account claims that Che Guevara sent a 14 year old boy to the firing squad for stealing food from his guerilla unit.

We go to the firing squad again ? He killed traitors and left over soldiers from Batista it isnt bout a murder it is bout
tactics.

Edit dont know bout the kid, but I first want to see real
proof and not the text " a witness claimed "




Guerilla Warfare = Terrorism

Che Guevara = Man of Hatred
Che Guevara = Fidel Castro Pawn
Che Guevara = Foreign Argentina Invader
Che Guevara = Economic Ignorance
Che Guevara = Exterminator of Innocent Cuban & African Lives
Che Guevara = Rash Judgement without Evidence - You are Guilty (evidence not necessary)

[b]

Guerilla Warfare = Terrorism ( Or tactics for his people to fight the revolution )

Che Guevara = Man of Hatred ( opnions..opnions )
Che Guevara = Fidel Castro Pawn ( Thats why he left Cuba to fight on his own ? )
Che Guevara = Foreign Argentina Invader ( I think you mean Bolivia but he just wanted tof ree that country too. )
Che Guevara = Economic Ignorance ( did a really good job )
Che Guevara = Exterminator of Innocent Cuban & African Lives
( Tactics )
Che Guevara = Rash Judgement without Evidence - You are Guilty (evidence not necessary)
( Tactics )

[Solzhenitsyn]

I quote Robert Baum Associate professor, religious studies at Iowa State who said the following:

"Terrorism is a tactic chosen by desperate people who feel powerless and excluded. It has been used by groups that we are sympathetic to, like the Sons of Liberty in the American Revolution as well as, in horrendous ways, by the followers of Osama Bin Laden."

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Terrorism is the organized unlawful killing/kidnapping of non-combatants by sensational means to further a political agenda. When did the Sons of Liberty take to killing civilians? Guerrilla warfare is not terrorism unless they target civilians.
The fact that Che routinely meted out death to civilians is beyond reasonable debate. Ergo, Che was a terrorist regardless of his supposed good wishes for the people. I suspect that Che did what he did because he shares a trait that is common to all communists: an insatiable thirst for power.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Solzhenitsyn on 3:59 pm on May 9, 2002
I suspect that Che did what he did because he shares a trait that is common to all communists: an insatiable thirst for power.


And all communists share this ?
Commandante Che guevara didnt had a thirst for power, cause why would he have left Cuba then. He could become a man with many powers and could control the people like tyran. Instead he went to Bolivia to fight the revolution there.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Solzhenitsyn on 3:59 pm on May 9, 2002
I suspect that Che did what he did because he shares a trait that is common to all communists: an insatiable thirst for power.


And all communists share this ?
Commandante Che guevara didnt had a thirst for power, cause why would he have left Cuba then. He could become a man with many powers and could control the people like tyran. Instead he went to Bolivia to fight the revolution there.

[Solzhenitsyn]

Yes, he sure did. He had essentially lost the opportunity for unfettered tyrannical power in Cuba to Fidel. Hence the need to travel to Bolivia to start a one man state of his own.

[Smoking Frog II]

Che Guevara was not a terroist.
Che Guevara did not kill millions
Che Guevara's mission was to liberate Latin America from all of the petty nationalisms overbeared by the US
Che Guevara's mission did succeed

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Solzhenitsyn on 6:14 pm on May 9, 2002
Yes, he sure did. He had essentially lost the opportunity for unfettered tyrannical power in Cuba to Fidel. Hence the need to travel to Bolivia to start a one man state of his own.


Che's plans were different form Fidels, but I dont agree that che wanted his own state. After Bolivia was his would have went to a other country to start the revolution there. Like a true guerillia he didnt stopped by one small victory. Something he saw as only one part of the worldwide victory.